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POLL: Is this "stealing" or just "unethical"?
gecko109
Posts: 8,231 ✭
Excerpt from another board member:
"One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. "
Seems like theft to me.
"One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. "
Seems like theft to me.
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peacockcoins
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<< <i>The only thing that makes this seem even slightly unethical is "I put them on the bottom of the Mercs." Had he not said that, I would not feel it unethical in the slightest. But it sounds almost as if he was trying to hide the fact that the seated dimes were even there. >>
The "only" thing, "slightly unethical"? Thats the ENTIRE reason his actions were deplorable.
"Have any Mercs for sale?"
"Yeah, here's a box. 40 cents each."
Regardless of what else might have been in the box, the transaction was intended for Mercury dimes as understood by both parties.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
www.brunkauctions.com
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
He did pay for them, but was not upfront for what he was paying.
He cheated the system...
It's more of a scam than a theft...
JMHO
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
Reminds me of the type of person that hits another car in a parking lot and takes off, yet when the same happens to him becomes heated.
<< <i>I voted "theft" but I still think that term is a little strong.
He did pay for them, but was not upfront for what he was paying.
He cheated the system...
It's more of a scam than a theft...
JMHO >>
I've read stories called cherrypicking where someone has pulled a VAM from someone who didn't know about the VAM. lot's of "good job's" found in that thread.
what's the diffference between that thread and this one?
<< <i>But it sounds almost as if he was trying to hide the fact that the seated dimes were even there. >>
Ya think?
<< <i>
<< <i>I voted "theft" but I still think that term is a little strong.
He did pay for them, but was not upfront for what he was paying.
He cheated the system...
It's more of a scam than a theft...
JMHO >>
I've read stories called cherrypicking where someone has pulled a VAM from someone who didn't know about the VAM. lot's of "good job's" found in that thread.
what's the diffference between that thread and this one? >>
Not the same. This would be on par with going into home depot purchasing 40 light plates, 30 of which were $2 plates and 10 which were $10 plates, going to the check out line with all the cheaper priced plates on top and allowing the cashier to ring all 40 plates up at the $2 price.
<< <i>Need more information. Were the coins pulled from a bucket of junk silver dimes with a sign "40 cents each"? >>
Agree.
What do you think worn barbers are worth (ignoring the 85-S), I'm thinking $1 or $2 each?
<< <i>Were the coins pulled from a bucket of junk silver dimes with a sign "40 cents each"? >>
That would make it less objectionable, but still- nobody sells seated dimes for 40 cents each, so even then, it would obviously have been a mistake. In that case (bucket of junk silver dimes with a sign "40 cents each), I guess it depends on whether or not one thinks it's acceptable to take advantage of someone else's error. If it was me, I'd tell the seller what I found.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>Who is selling 90% silver coins for 1/3 of bullion value in the first place? >>
"One time I was buying Mercury dimes..."
The way I read it, could have been anytime in the past.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I voted "theft" but I still think that term is a little strong.
He did pay for them, but was not upfront for what he was paying.
He cheated the system...
It's more of a scam than a theft...
JMHO >>
I've read stories called cherrypicking where someone has pulled a VAM from someone who didn't know about the VAM. lot's of "good job's" found in that thread.
what's the diffference between that thread and this one? >>
Not the same. This would be on par with going into home depot purchasing 40 light plates, 30 of which were $2 plates and 10 which were $10 plates, going to the check out line with all the cheaper priced plates on top and allowing the cashier to ring all 40 plates up at the $2 price. >>
What if all the plates were in the same bin and there was a sign that said "Closeout special. $2.00"
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>What if all the plates were in the same bin and there was a sign that said "Closeout special. $2.00" >>
I don't know that that would be the same. With a "Closeout" bin, conceivably, anything could be in there. In a "40 cents each" melt value (assumed) bin, one would not expect to find seated dimes, IMO.
edited to add... also, there's no way for a buyer to know if another customer put the expensive items in the closeout bin (by mistake or not), either. I'm sure this sort of thing has to be a problem for dealers who have boxes of coins with different values ($5 box, $10 box, etc.) available for customers to sort through without supervision, too.
On the other hand, I would hate to be judged myself by one random quote without any context behind why it was said.
Is a mercury dime simply a dime with 90% silver content? Why don't they call them silver dimes?
I still remove the silver dimes from circulation whenever I run into them. They are still circulating along with the silver quarters. There is not a whole lot left, but its still out there.
>>>>>>>>>
If the buyer had the hide the coins below the regular ones, then of course he was doing something unethical. He knew the seller would charge more for the more expensive coins.
I would let the seller know what was going on. Perhaps the seller would be so impressed with the honesty that he would reward you with a few seated dimes at 40 cents each --that would be good business practice in keeping a loyal customer with that type of integrity. All the same, keeping my integrity is more important for me than gaining a few bucks here and there.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Steve
<< <i>How about more context? I am assuming since you brought this up, there is more to it.
On the other hand, I would hate to be judged myself by one random quote without any context behind why it was said. >>
Here is the thread the excerpt was taken from.
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
what's the diffference between that thread and this one?>>
You are correct!
Not enough information to make a judgement on OP.
Silver was $5 oz at the time.
40 cents was about right and a good deal.
Forget the Morgan dollars and keep buying the smaller stuff, maybe you'll get some barbers or even seated liberty coins for the smae price.
One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. >>
Thats borderline theft.....come on man. >>
Why is it theft? They were mixed in with the Mercury dimes priced at 40 cents each, this was a long time ago when Silver was around $5 an oz. I picked out as many of the seated dimes as I could find and placed them under the Merc's he counted the piles of 10 and I paid him what he asked, I didn't know there was a key date seated dime until I got home. I've also picked 7-42/1-D and 1-42/1 mercury dimes out of bags of Silver I bought do you also consider cherrypicking these coins as stealing too??? >>
If you really thought you were doing nothing wrong, then why did you purposely place the seated coins under the mercs? Because you were in effect "stealing" them.
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Wow, no, they were priced at 40 cents each, 40 cents was paid. Gecko, do you go around and blast people in the Wal Mart line because they buy something that was priced wrong?
<< <i>"One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. " >>
Suppose this buyer picked out 10 stacks of 10 coins at 40 cents each, peeled off some bills and handed them to the seller saying "This covers the coins I picked out". Only it turns out, when the seller counts the money as the buyer is walking away, he finds 4 ten dollar bills and one 100 dollar bill.
Is it "stealing" or just "unethical" if the seller doesn't tell the buyer?
So, if you do that, knowing that the '64 Kennedy you got in change is worth $5-6, are you stealing it if you don't tell the cashier?
I told the story a week or 2 back where a guy comes into a pawn shop while I was there & sold Morgans to the owner who offered $5 each.
I don't know the condition or dates.
Unethical? IMO, Yes.
Stealing? No.
Know what you have, in buying & selling.
Also, and it may have been stated before, so I'm sorry if it was, but was the 'bin' for Dimes, or Mercury Dimes?
Former, at worst unethical.
Latter, stealing.
Let's, for the sake of argument, say it was a 'DIMES' bin,
is there a break point (price-wise) do you go from OK-to-RIP-to-unethical-to-stealing?
<< <i>Let's, for the sake of argument, say it was a 'DIMES' bin,
is there a break point (price-wise) do you go from OK-to-RIP-to-unethical-to-stealing? >>
I'd say at the point where the seller didn't know the seated dimes were in the bin. What if, unknown to the seller, another customer took them from another bin and put them there?
Therein lies my question as to whether the bin said DIMES or Mercury Dimes.
In my minds eye, if it said only Dimes, the seller had no real concern whether these were Seated, Barber, Merc's or Roosies, only that they were dimes worth $4 each.
IF, on the other hand, the bin was for Mercury Dimes, then I have a real problem.
No way of knowing I guess.
Do we, as collectors (& experts) have an obligation to 'teach' the public at large what they are selling & what those coins are worth?
If so, revert back to the thread about VAMS.
I'm leaning toward no, but can be persuaded to the yes side with a good argument.
-----Why is it theft? They were mixed in with the Mercury dimes priced at 40 cents each, this was a long time ago when Silver was around $5 an oz. I picked out as many of the seated dimes as I could find and placed them under the Merc's he counted the piles of 10 and I paid him what he asked, I didn't know there was a key date seated dime until I got home. I've also picked 7-42/1-D and 1-42/1 mercury dimes out of bags of Silver I bought do you also consider cherrypicking these coins as stealing too???
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It's still wrong to hide the Seated Dimes because the buyer thought they where stealing a deal.
<< <i>In my minds eye, if it said only Dimes, the seller had no real concern whether these were Seated, Barber, Merc's or Roosies, only that they were dimes worth $4 each >>
What if he didn't know they were in the bin? Is the seller obligated to sell them for the marked price if another customer put them there without telling him? I wouldn't think so.
<< <i>How can a dealer make such a mistake? >>
Have you ever been to a show or a shop where the dealer had multiple boxes of coins with different prices on each box? Is it really outside the realm of possibility that a previous customer put the coins in the wrong box?
<< <i>The fact that the forum member PURPOSELY placed the seated dimes UNDER the mercs is a clear indication that he KNEW he was doing something wrong. It is black and white. If he truley thought what he did was fine, he would not have gone through the trouble of "hiding" those coins. End of story! >>
I vote that "he did nothing wrong." I read the thread, and it appears, if I'm not mistaken, that the "seated dimes" and mercs were grouped in the same pricing group, so to speak. Or maybe I'm reading too little or too much into it.
Andrew
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<< <i>I voted for "unethical at the very least" because I don't have all the information. If all the coins were in a box marked 40 cents each, then not stealing. However, at the very least he should have said to the dealer, "hey you sure these should be here?". If bought from an unknowledgable collector/heir, then theft. Now as I reason this out in this reponse, I think I should have voted for theft outright. Either way, not someone I want to do business with.
Andrew >>
I disagree with your major points.
1. It is incumbent on the dealer to make sure that everything is in order. If not, then my opinion is that it's the dealer's fault. We must assume in most situations that the customer has no knowledge of the pricing mechanisms, and that what the dealer charges, for better or for worse, is his asking price.
2. The dealer has the right to inspect all of the coins bought, and not to trust the customer's statement of his purchases. The dealer appears to have failed to do so, or is at least apathetic to the situation.
I would do business with the person in question. Nothing out of the ordinary from a business circumstance.
<< <i>
<< <i>The fact that the forum member PURPOSELY placed the seated dimes UNDER the mercs is a clear indication that he KNEW he was doing something wrong. It is black and white. If he truley thought what he did was fine, he would not have gone through the trouble of "hiding" those coins. End of story! >>
I vote that "he did nothing wrong." I read the thread, and it appears, if I'm not mistaken, that the "seated dimes" and mercs were grouped in the same pricing group, so to speak. Or maybe I'm reading too little or too much into it. >>
if the buyer expressed himself correctly, it reads like he bought some seated dimes which were mixed in with merc dimes he was looking at.
With the additional info from the buyers account, it sounds like theft. In the beginning I was willing to think "if this were an auction, I'd wait for the link."
<< <i>
<< <i>I voted for "unethical at the very least" because I don't have all the information. If all the coins were in a box marked 40 cents each, then not stealing. However, at the very least he should have said to the dealer, "hey you sure these should be here?". If bought from an unknowledgable collector/heir, then theft. Now as I reason this out in this reponse, I think I should have voted for theft outright. Either way, not someone I want to do business with.
Andrew >>
I disagree with your major points.
1. It is incumbent on the dealer to make sure that everything is in order. If not, then my opinion is that it's the dealer's fault. We must assume in most situations that the customer has no knowledge of the pricing mechanisms, and that what the dealer charges, for better or for worse, is his asking price.
2. The dealer has the right to inspect all of the coins bought, and not to trust the customer's statement of his purchases. The dealer appears to have failed to do so, or is at least apathetic to the situation.
I would do business with the person in question. Nothing out of the ordinary from a business circumstance. >>
Well, back to the wall plate idea and finding some potentially higher priced wall plates in the bargain bin with the regulars, then hiding them under the advertised bargain bin ones to be able to get the same pricing on the potentially higher priced ones and be able to get out the door unnoticed.
<< <i>
<< <i>I voted for "unethical at the very least" because I don't have all the information. If all the coins were in a box marked 40 cents each, then not stealing. However, at the very least he should have said to the dealer, "hey you sure these should be here?". If bought from an unknowledgable collector/heir, then theft. Now as I reason this out in this reponse, I think I should have voted for theft outright. Either way, not someone I want to do business with.
Andrew >>
I disagree with your major points.
1. It is incumbent on the dealer to make sure that everything is in order. If not, then my opinion is that it's the dealer's fault. We must assume in most situations that the customer has no knowledge of the pricing mechanisms, and that what the dealer charges, for better or for worse, is his asking price.
2. The dealer has the right to inspect all of the coins bought, and not to trust the customer's statement of his purchases. The dealer appears to have failed to do so, or is at least apathetic to the situation.
I would do business with the person in question. Nothing out of the ordinary from a business circumstance. >>
This is clearly a customer that knows the correct pricing of the coins. He placed them on the bottom because he knew they were worth more and trying to hide what was there. I have been the dealer that has made an error and if not for an honest customer would have been on the short end of that stick. I have also been the customer that has pointed out an error to a dealer that I knew was clearly an error. In that case that comes to mind, pointing out the error "cost" me several thousand dollars. I guess it's as simple as the golden rule...Do unto others as you'd have done to you". Has this individual been found to be concealing the seated lib's by the dealer, I guarantee any good will with this dealer would be shot. Pointing out the error, probably would pay dividends in the future. I know both would be the case with me.
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<< <i>They were mixed in with the Mercury dimes priced at 40 cents each >>