The puttied gold Dollar

joebb21 · February 22, 2012 1:10PM

At first straight on angle the coin this 1889 gold dollar has a really nice look to it with semi-prooflike fields (something that is common for the date)
The coin is in a problem free holder.
Sorry but these were the best pictures I could do for now

Tilting the coin away from the light illumminates a totally different view of the coin of which over 50% of the total surface area of the coin has been puttied.

MsMorrisine · February 22, 2012 1:26PM

puttying a 61 ??

I don't get that.

relicsncoins · February 22, 2012 1:29PM

<< puttying a 61 ??

I don't get that. >>

I think the idea was to take a coin like a 61 and putty it and try to "turn" it into a 63. Maybe when the putty comes off, this coin is actually a 55?

ranshdow · February 22, 2012 1:31PM

Always a shame.

mingot · February 22, 2012 1:45PM

Does this stuff come off or does it ruin the coin?

robkool · February 22, 2012 1:46PM

OUCH !!! And in a graded holder too...

AnkurJ · February 22, 2012 1:49PM

Here is another one in a MS62 holder I used to own.

Kove · February 22, 2012 2:58PM

These can sometimes be reverse-doctored, using a solvent to get the putty off the surface.

The problem is that taking the putty off of a prooflike gold coin will often result in a lower grade when you're done. That putty was put on there to mask some problems, and these issues will be exposed once the putty is gone. In this case, it wouldn't surprise me if the coin was puttied to hide either a light cleaning or a mid-AU grade.

Since you don't know exactly what lies beneath, it's best to let PCGS take care of the putty, and any resulting downgrade, with their grading guarantee.

mkman123 · February 22, 2012 3:04PM

How come pcgs didn't catch this????

lkeigwin · February 22, 2012 3:07PM

<< OUCH !!! And in a graded holder too... >>

Or maybe thankfully in a graded holder?
Lance.

AnkurJ · February 22, 2012 3:10PM

<< How come pcgs didn't catch this???? >>

Good question!

stealer · February 22, 2012 3:18PM

<< How come pcgs didn't catch this???? >>

I think putty is invisible when first applied and slowly becomes more visible over time.

PerryHall · February 22, 2012 4:44PM

<< These can sometimes be reverse-doctored, using a solvent to get the putty off the surface.

The problem is that taking the putty off of a prooflike gold coin will often result in a lower grade when you're done. That putty was put on there to mask some problems, and these issues will be exposed once the putty is gone. In this case, it wouldn't surprise me if the coin was puttied to hide either a light cleaning or a mid-AU grade.

Since you don't know exactly what lies beneath, it's best to let PCGS take care of the putty, and any resulting downgrade, with their grading guarantee. >>

Putty is usually put on to camouflage hairlines.

19Lyds · February 22, 2012 4:54PM

<< Here is another one in a MS62 holder I used to own.

>>

Used to own? What did you do with it?

BAJJERFAN · February 22, 2012 10:06PM

<< 

<< How come pcgs didn't catch this???? >>

I think putty is invisible when first applied and slowly becomes more visible over time. >>

Yep, a good doctoring job is hard to detect when first done and it can fool many people. It is only over time that the inevitable change will become evident.

AnkurJ · February 22, 2012 10:09PM

<< 

<< Here is another one in a MS62 holder I used to own.

Used to own? What did you do with it? >>

Traded it to a dealer. Told them it has putty but he didn't seem to care.

braddick · February 22, 2012 10:43PM

<< 

<< 

<< Here is another one in a MS62 holder I used to own.

Used to own? What did you do with it? >>

Traded it to a dealer. Told them it has putty but he didn't seem to care. >>

Wouldn't the better trade be to send it back to PCGS under their guarantee?

ricko · February 23, 2012 12:19AM

<< Traded it to a dealer. Told them it has putty but he didn't seem to care. >> >>

Yep, he did not care because he will/did sell it in the same condition he received it, (Likely) to some unsuspecting buyer.
Cheers, RickO

BAJJERFAN · February 23, 2012 12:32AM

<< 

<< Traded it to a dealer. Told them it has putty but he didn't seem to care. >> >>

Yep, he did not care because he will/did sell it in the same condition he received it, (Likely) to some unsuspecting buyer.
Cheers, RickO >>

Suppose PCGS removed the putty and regraded and reholdered the coin at au55 instead of ms62 and gave you the coin back plus any compensation for loss of value. Would anyone here feel obligated to reveal that the coin had previously been puttied and then cleaned?

AnkurJ · February 23, 2012 12:41AM

No offense intended, but if PCGS didnt catch it the first time, who is to say they will the second time?

BAJJERFAN · February 23, 2012 1:31AM

<< No offense intended, but if PCGS didnt catch it the first time, who is to say they will the second time? >>

Depends upon how much time has elapsed between the first and second times.

secondrepublic · February 23, 2012 1:40AM

It probably wasn't evident the first time they graded it, but became apparent over time. Isn't that one of the big issues in the PCGS lawsuit against coin doctors?

19Lyds · February 23, 2012 1:44AM

<< 

<< 

<< Traded it to a dealer. Told them it has putty but he didn't seem to care. >> >>

Yep, he did not care because he will/did sell it in the same condition he received it, (Likely) to some unsuspecting buyer.
Cheers, RickO >>

Suppose PCGS removed the putty and regraded and reholdered the coin at au55 instead of ms62 and gave you the coin back plus any compensation for loss of value. Would anyone here feel obligated to reveal that the coin had previously been puttied and then cleaned? >>

Not I. If PCGS put it into an AU55 holder then it technically was not "cleaned". Technically, it was "conserved" and saved from further damage.

19Lyds · February 23, 2012 1:46AM

<< No offense intended, but if PCGS didnt catch it the first time, who is to say they will the second time? >>

I guess that determination should be left up to PCGS.

What makes you think it was puttied anyway?

RYK · February 23, 2012 2:12AM

<< No offense intended, but if PCGS didnt catch it the first time, who is to say they will the second time? >>

Because it changes over time. We have covered this point ad nauseum here.

shorecoll · February 23, 2012 2:12AM

These are ladies here we are talking about, lots of them wear makeup...how would you like it if friends described your wife/gf as "puttied" (ex's do not count).

guitarwes · February 23, 2012 2:21AM

They should've sniffed it.

BAJJERFAN · February 23, 2012 2:25AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Traded it to a dealer. Told them it has putty but he didn't seem to care. >> >>

Yep, he did not care because he will/did sell it in the same condition he received it, (Likely) to some unsuspecting buyer.
Cheers, RickO >>

Suppose PCGS removed the putty and regraded and reholdered the coin at au55 instead of ms62 and gave you the coin back plus any compensation for loss of value. Would anyone here feel obligated to reveal that the coin had previously been puttied and then cleaned? >>

Not I. If PCGS put it into an AU55 holder then it technically was not "cleaned". Technically, it was "conserved" and saved from further damage. >>

Let me rephrase then!

Would anyone here offer ANYTHING about the history of the coin if it was regraded and holdered at au55?

BAJJERFAN · February 23, 2012 2:27AM

<< These are ladies here we are talking about, lots of them wear makeup...how would you like it if friends described your wife/gf as "puttied" (ex's do not count).

>>

Is "warpainted" nicer?

Bochiman · February 23, 2012 3:20AM

<< 

<< No offense intended, but if PCGS didnt catch it the first time, who is to say they will the second time? >>

I guess that determination should be left up to PCGS.

What makes you think it was puttied anyway? >>

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that he "CAC'ed" it and was told "NO BEAN FOR YOU!" because of putty.

robkool · February 23, 2012 4:23AM

I better start checking all my pcgs graded gold...

UtahCoin · February 23, 2012 5:26AM

Is anybody else surprised that this thread has not been **POOFED**

RYK · February 23, 2012 5:27AM

<< Is anybody else surprised that this thread has not been **POOFED** >>

Not at all. We have had this conversation a number of times.

joebb21 · February 23, 2012 5:32AM

<< 

<< Is anybody else surprised that this thread has not been **POOFED** >>

Not at all. We have had this conversation a number of times. >>

In fact for pcgs's benefit, they can look at the cert number and see who submitted the coin...

guitarwes · February 23, 2012 5:39AM

<< In fact for pcgs's benefit, they can look at the cert number and see who submitted the coin... >>

Doesn't mean the submitter knew it was puttied upon submission.

AnkurJ · February 23, 2012 5:46AM

<< 

<< 

<< No offense intended, but if PCGS didnt catch it the first time, who is to say they will the second time? >>

I guess that determination should be left up to PCGS.

What makes you think it was puttied anyway? >>

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that he "CAC'ed" it and was told "NO BEAN FOR YOU!" because of putty. >>

That is correct. And JA showed me how to detect putty. I've seen dozens of coins at shows that have the puttied look. Some have haziness to go with it but not all of them.

stealer · February 23, 2012 6:07AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< No offense intended, but if PCGS didnt catch it the first time, who is to say they will the second time? >>

I guess that determination should be left up to PCGS.

What makes you think it was puttied anyway? >>

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that he "CAC'ed" it and was told "NO BEAN FOR YOU!" because of putty. >>

That is correct. And JA showed me how to detect putty. I've seen dozens of coins at shows that have the puttied look. Some have haziness to go with it but not all of them. >>

Okay, then do you care sharing with the rest of the community how to detect putty that has not yet started to take on color?

DorkGirl · February 23, 2012 6:47AM

Yeah, teach the rest of us.

Kove · February 23, 2012 1:57PM

<< That is correct. And JA showed me how to detect putty. I've seen dozens of coins at shows that have the puttied look. Some have haziness to go with it but not all of them. >>

AnkurJ, alluding to comments by JA about detecting puttied coins without the haziness is a pretty interesting statement to bring up and then just let it sit there...

AnkurJ · February 23, 2012 2:06PM

Sorry, I wasn't keeping track of this thread. From what I recall he said unevenness in color is a sign. Most coins puttied years before have already started developing haze. Kind of the same way morgans are thumbed. At this point I try to buy gold with crust/dirt in the devices or that which is CACd. It's too difficult to detect putty from images when buying outside a show.

stealer · February 23, 2012 2:09PM

<< Sorry, I wasn't keeping track of this thread. From what I recall he said unevenness in color is a sign. Most coins puttied years before have already started developing haze. Kind of the same way morgans are thumbed. At this point I try to buy gold with crust/dirt in the devices or that which is CACd. It's too difficult to detect putty from images when buying outside a show. >>

Hm, then how about gold that is unevenly toned? That can't be a surefire sign of putty can it?

AnkurJ · February 23, 2012 2:16PM

I'm not an expert on this. Maybe RYK can chime in. The toning pattern looks more natural and continuous I'm guessing. With puttied surfaces there are distinct changes from one area to another.

relicsncoins · February 24, 2012 1:38AM

<< I'm not an expert on this. Maybe RYK can chime in. The toning pattern looks more natural and continuous I'm guessing. With puttied surfaces there are distinct changes from one area to another. >>

You have two conflicting opinions on whether or not it was puttied. It's obvious you trust one over the other. I'm guessing that coin was graded before the sniffer went into effect. Why not just send it in for review and have them use the sniffer on it. There are humans at CAC and at PCGS and to think that the humans at CAC somehow are above mistakes extremely naive. PCGS has a system in place to get problem coins out of their holders, you should've used it. All you've done is pass a questionable coin on the next unsuspecting dupe. I would like to see that coin sniffed and if came back clean then what would your conclusion be?

robkool · February 24, 2012 3:12AM

Deceiving to say the least...

steveben · February 24, 2012 5:14AM

there's a coin in this thread that reminded me of this one:

what do you think?

liefgold · April 13, 2012 4:48AM

Sorry to dig up this old thread but I have a twin to the coin posted in the OP.
What ever happened with this coin and the PCGS guarantee? What has been other people's experience when submitting these to PCGS?

Elcontador · April 13, 2012 5:57AM

<< Sorry, I wasn't keeping track of this thread. From what I recall he said unevenness in color is a sign. Most coins puttied years before have already started developing haze. Kind of the same way morgans are thumbed. At this point I try to buy gold with crust/dirt in the devices or that which is CACd. It's too difficult to detect putty from images when buying outside a show. >>

I never have, and will never buy a coin based on an image alone. The above is but one reason why. Images often don't show the coin's details, or color correctly. Often, this is not the fault of the person who made the image.

ajman · April 13, 2012 11:54AM

<< At first straight on angle the coin this 1889 gold dollar has a really nice look to it with semi-prooflike fields (something that is common for the date)
The coin is in a problem free holder.
Sorry but these were the best pictures I could do for now

Tilting the coin away from the light illumminates a totally different view of the coin of which over 50% of the total surface area of the coin has been puttied.

>>

Forgive me for asking but what is puttying?

19Lyds · April 14, 2012 3:26AM

<< 

<< At first straight on angle the coin this 1889 gold dollar has a really nice look to it with semi-prooflike fields (something that is common for the date)
The coin is in a problem free holder.
Sorry but these were the best pictures I could do for now

Tilting the coin away from the light illumminates a totally different view of the coin of which over 50% of the total surface area of the coin has been puttied. >>

Forgive me for asking but what is puttying? >>

It's a method of applying putty to the surface of a gold coin to fill in or otherwise mask grade limiting flaws.

I see absolutely not reason why someone would putty an MS61 coin since its more or less a questionable grade which resides just over the line from an AU coin.

As for the coins in the thread, both should have been sent back to PCGS for absolute determination and at the very minimum, "if" they had been puttied, removed from the slabs or cleaned up and regraded.

The puttied gold Dollar

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