<< <i>Here's a better overlay of the two tokens. Certainly the same die. Only the bifurcated letters are different.
The bifurcated letters, like everyone says, are common in some series. Consider early dollars for example. Actually, I suppose everyone can read up on that topic now that QDB's silver dollar opus is online. >>
Again thanks for the overlay, which confirms that these two pieces were from the same reverse die.
Bifurcation, with attendant odd serifs, appears on many Bust dollars and Bust halves. As the U.S. Mint engravers were not prone to adding fancy fillips to government property, I think it is safe to say that the fancy serifs on the U.S. coins were simply the result of the bifurcation process.
TD
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Got a decent macro looking UP into the lettering. Seems that the punch has been altered to produce the ornament. I dont see how with a strike like this there can be any areas 'unfilled' with metal.
Thank you for your inquiry which was sent to me when I was in Tampa attending a convention.
I have reviewed the dies carefully, and both seem to be identical. There can be some small differences in the letter serifs and also the bases, as striking can make some bases appear to be other than straight. However, it is the general position of the letters, punched into the die by hand, that would define a new die.
I very much appreciate your enthusiasm for the Feuchtwanger coinage.
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
An Interesting thread. The conclusion is the strongly struck proof like strike had curled foot letters while the weaker struck ht265 had straight feet ,,,,from the same die.
so my humble conclusion is that the initial reply over two years ago established what two years of research and correspondence concluded. forum knowledge is like all those Visa commercials..........priceless.
..................and my reply was simply to point out that the two were struck from the same die and that the forum figured it out almost instantly. I made an innocuous post, not trying to pick a fight.
I think that it more to do with the gap between the dies when the pieces were struck than a new die variety. The first piece was weakly struck because the dies did not come together properly and some of the detail was lost. The second piece is sharply struck and more of the detail shows.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Ah, the sancreek font! Nice discovery! But there's a thread that I've never seen........a history on the various fonts used on our coins. I see another registry set waiting in the horizon.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Working on a series such as HTT's which has limited printed reference material is tough, as the degree of rarity assigned to many tokens needs to be re-addressed. IMHO these 3 Cent Feuchtwangers are not as scarce on the rarity scale degree assigned by Lyman Low 110 years ago. Russell Rulau's rarity scale which adopted Lyman Low's has also not changed over the course of 9 editions. His last printing in 2001 is a very out dated guide book compared to the impact the internet has placed on locating examples in this series. There are plenty of R-1 and R-2 HTT's that are tougher to locate then some of the elusive examples on the rarity scale. These R-1 and R-2's should be raised to R-3 or R-4's and also some R-7's which should be tapered down to R-5 or R-6. >>
Fully agree with this as it relates to HTTs. It would be great to see an update of rarities on the HTT's. My sense is that those in the know, aren't really interested much in sharing that information, preferring instead to use this information to their advantage. Not that there is anything wrong with that, mind you. Plus, the effort to update the rarities, might be a monumental task.
<< <i>An Interesting thread. The conclusion is the strongly struck proof like strike had curled foot letters while the weaker struck ht265 had straight feet ,,,,from the same die. >>
Interesting post, Ray. You and I have spoken of this issue before, but I never fully understood it until now. I think I side with the majority here though. In addition to the thoughtful comments provides by others, the comment to "Look at the N at 11 o'clock and the C and O at 1 o'clock" persuaded me somewhat. Always enjoy your enthusiasm and those 3 centers.
Realone--I don't know. I would have to go back and study it. And I will eventually. Are you saying that the 3 centers are different varieties, or that that the E and R (and C and O) were recut? I am saying that the Capt'n comments make the most sense to me here and that my above quoted comment and the overlay seem to bear that out.
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Comments
<< <i>Here's a better overlay of the two tokens. Certainly the same die. Only the bifurcated letters are different.
The bifurcated letters, like everyone says, are common in some series. Consider early dollars for example. Actually, I suppose everyone can read up on that topic now that QDB's silver dollar opus is online. >>
Again thanks for the overlay, which confirms that these two pieces were from the same reverse die.
Bifurcation, with attendant odd serifs, appears on many Bust dollars and Bust halves. As the U.S. Mint engravers were not prone to adding fancy fillips to government property, I think it is safe to say that the fancy serifs on the U.S. coins were simply the result of the bifurcation process.
TD
what is the composition of that 'german silver' and what is the relative hardness?
the US Mint never used the stuff for anything did they?
if it is harder than nickel, the mint probably decided it would go through too many dies
I also can't remember on the raw ones I used to have if this was struck without a collar (open collar)
your close-up macro shows me the serifs are because the metal did not fill the die rather than the die being different
a good discussion though, and discoverys would not be made if people did not look and notice differences
<< <i>
Your large photo just proves what others are saying, the result of unfilled with metal.
Look at the N at 11 o'clock and the C and O at 1 o'clock. It has been a fun and educational read for sure.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Reply Dictated by Q. David Bowers
MEMO TO: (edited email out)
Dear Ray,
Thank you for your inquiry which was sent to me when I was in Tampa attending a convention.
I have reviewed the dies carefully, and both seem to be identical. There can be some small differences in the letter serifs and also the bases, as striking can make some bases appear to be other than straight. However, it is the general position of the letters, punched into the die by hand, that would define a new die.
I very much appreciate your enthusiasm for the Feuchtwanger coinage.
All good wishes to you for a Happy New Year.
Sincerely,
—Dave Bowers
There are other useful links within.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Die Wear?
On an R7+ piece?
Yes. Die wear. Just because it's R7+. >>
Working on a series such as HTT's which has limited printed reference material is tough, as the degree of rarity assigned to many tokens needs to be re-addressed. IMHO these 3 Cent Feuchtwangers are not as scarce on the rarity scale degree assigned by Lyman Low 110 years ago. Russell Rulau's rarity scale which adopted Lyman Low's has also not changed over the course of 9 editions. His last printing in 2001 is a very out dated guide book compared to the impact the internet has placed on locating examples in this series. There are plenty of R-1 and R-2 HTT's that are tougher to locate then some of the elusive examples on the rarity scale. These R-1 and R-2's should be raised to R-3 or R-4's and also some R-7's which should be tapered down to R-5 or R-6. >>
Fully agree with this as it relates to HTTs. It would be great to see an update of rarities on the HTT's. My sense is that those in the know, aren't really interested much in sharing that information, preferring instead to use this information to their advantage. Not that there is anything wrong with that, mind you. Plus, the effort to update the rarities, might be a monumental task.
Tom
<< <i>An Interesting thread. The conclusion is the strongly struck proof like strike had curled foot letters while the weaker struck ht265 had straight feet ,,,,from the same die. >>
Interesting post, Ray. You and I have spoken of this issue before, but I never fully understood it until now. I think I side with the majority here though. In addition to the thoughtful comments provides by others, the comment to "Look at the N at 11 o'clock and the C and O at 1 o'clock" persuaded me somewhat. Always enjoy your enthusiasm and those 3 centers.
Tom
Tom
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
Eric
Eric
Another bump for the recent thread on BIFURCATION
bump
I miss guys like ambros
And several other posters of this thread
Martin