My point on being a pioneer centered on Schmidt's dynamic ability to read offenses and attack plays. He was demonstrating an outstanding skill set for a position still in its infancy.
True, the 1 first team would have hurt Schmidt, George, or Huff but w/out the vote it hard to know where each placed.
I can't fault Butkus for not winning a Championship on those terrible Bear's teams, but I can't ignore that Schmidt won two either. IMO winning a championship only helps a great player look better.
Thanks for posting the links. I wish Butkus would have stayed healthy and had a longer career. As a person who never saw him play it does seem like he's more a product of star power and the years he was especially dominant prior to the knee injuries. He was better in pass coverage than I thought and he was a devastating hitter, I just feel he wasn't great over a prolonged period of time.
I want to say it was link a friend sent me off the pro football researchers site but I'm not sure. >>
Point well taken. He and Sam Huff were really the first "QB of the defense" MLBs. And it's why he is considered one of the best to ever play the position. Just not THE best.
On the link, I know one of the PFRA members, Sean Lehman is an avid Butkus basher. I'd be willing to bet if it was a story written for PFRA's Coffin Corner periodical, that Lehman wrote it. It's not an uncommon theme. There are Unitas bashers, Jim Brown bashers, Emmitt Smith bashers, Barry Sanders bashers, etc. When you are widely considered one of, if not the best to ever play your position, the ''over rated" theme is what others use when they have a differing opinion. You can find positives and negatives on every single player who's ever played the game. There are no "perfect" players.
Butkus had an 8 year run in which he played so well , and was so dominant (for mostly crappy teams) that he was considered the STANDARD to which all other MLBs are compared to this day..40+ years later! The NCAA award for best linebacker each year is the Butkus award. He took what Chuck Bednarik and NightTrain Lane started and he made it an art form.
If you've never seen Butkus play, you should find some footage. I'm sure YouTube or Hulu has got something. Maybe even NFL Network online. He was Ray Lewis in his prime, but meaner. I love watching Butkus, and if you enjoy see hard hits and helmets getting torn off, you gotta see the guy in action. Lambert was the smaller version who could cover. But played with the same demeanor, the way football was meant to be played. Not like the basketball on grass you mostly see today.
Jason >>
I was able to find the Link on Schmidt. I'll have to do a video search. I love debating this stuff b/c I don't think there are ever "right" answers. Always fun to hear differing opinions.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I was able to find the Link on Schmidt. I'll have to do a video search. I love debating this stuff b/c I don't think there are ever "right" answers. Always fun to hear differing opinions. >>
Thanks, good read. At many points it was like re-reading the debate we've had right here! lol
You are absolutely correct. No right and wrong, only opinions. JUST LIKE HOF voting. I want to make it clear that I really do not have a knock against Schmidt. I've seen enough of his gameplay to confidently call him one of the greatest LB's to ever play. I liked him more than Bill George, who equaled his All=Pro selections playing during the exact same years. My top 10 LB's are still the same even after our debate. I'd still put Schmidt at a rock solid #8 all-time, just behind Nitschke. That's pretty rarified air, as there have been so many great LBs through the years. I just can't see putting him above any of the other LB's in my top 10.
Hey, others might have him #1, maybe even thought he was better than LT1, who knows...But for me, based on what I've watched and learned over the last 25 years of studying NFL history and HOF players, he's #8. Then again, Unitas my #1 QB, Jim Brown my #1 RB, Rice my #1 WR...We've discussed all these type rankings on this thread in the past, and there are always differing opinions.
I'd love to see your top 10 LBs, just based on whatever knowledge you have on the subject. It isn't required to be a football historian to have an opinion. lol...The best thing about this type of debate is that it makes you think, and gives you motivation to find out things that maybe you didn't know or realize before. I was surprised at some of the posters who also backed Schmidt in the PFRA thread. Some HIGHLY respected guys who really know there stuff. Proof positive that Schmidt really was THAT good, and not many collectors are aware of who he really is or how good the guy was in his prime. I wonder how many of the 100+ collectors of this set would also rank him in the top 10 LBs of all-time? I'd guess less than half!
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hall passes: Lead pipe locks and on-the-fringe players for Canton Pat Kirwan By Pat Kirwan | NFL.com Senior Analyst
The month of June is traditionally the slowest for the NFL, which gives guys like me a chance to speculate -- on, say, things like future Hall of Famers.
The careers of quarterback Kurt Warner and left tackle Walter Jones came to an end this offseason, and I believe their bodies of work will get them into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Then again, I also believe tight end Shannon Sharpe and wide receiver Cris Carter should be in by now. The longer things linger for these two, the more I wonder what it will take for them to get in.
During my Sirius Radio show on Memorial Day, I was challenged with the question: Which active players have already done enough to punch their tickets for Canton? From that fundamental question came these questions: Which players are close to getting into the Hall? Which players have a chance? Which players will just miss out? And, for which players who seem on track is it simply too early to determine?
I asked front office executives, talked with two NFL historians who I respect, took emails from passionate fans, and looked at the current production of 37 present-day players who fall into one of these categories.
You're going to disagree with some of my views and see eye-to-eye with me on others, but here's the best that I can categorize these players.
Canton bound
1. Brett Favre, QB, Vikings: No argument here whatsoever. He's the all-time leader in passing yards (69,329) and touchdowns (497) and has a Super Bowl ring, with the very real possibility of adding another should he come back.
2. Peyton Manning, QB, Colts: Manning has already thrown for 50,128 yards (fourth all-time behind Favre, Dan Marino and John Elway) and 366 touchdowns (third all-time), is the only four-time league MVP, and has his Super Bowl ring. If the 33-year-old Manning was to play six more years at this pace, he'll finish with close to 76,000 yards and 550 touchdowns.
3. Tom Brady, QB, Patriots: It's not about stats for Brady, although a single-season record of 50 touchdown passes in 2007 was quite impressive. The only number that matters: Three. As in three Super Bowl championships (twice MVP) says it all.
4. Ray Lewis, ILB, Ravens: In 14 seasons, Lewis has been the epitome of hard-hitting defense in the NFL. He has been tackling players longer than the league has kept stats for them (since 2001). Throw in his 36.5 sacks, 28 interceptions, 12 forced fumbles, and the fact that he was the general of the 2000 Ravens' defense that led the franchise to its only Super Bowl championship, and he's a lock for the Hall.
5. Tony Gonzalez, TE, Falcons: Gonzalez is partly responsible for revolutionizing the position as we know it. He's the career leader among tight ends with 999 receptions (seventh overall) and 82 touchdowns.
6. LaDainian Tomlinson, RB, Jets: Only recently has L.T. showed signs of decline. In nine seasons as a Charger, he had 12,490 rushing yards (eighth all-time) with 138 rushing touchdowns (second all-time). On top of that, he has 530 receptions for 3,955 yards and 15 touchdowns. And he only had one of the greatest seasons ever in 2006 when he was named league MVP after scoring 31 total touchdowns and amassing 2,323 yards of offense.
7. Ed Reed, FS, Ravens: A ball hawk if there ever was one, in eight seasons Reed has 46 interceptions, 70 passes defended, nine forced fumbles, and five sacks. He's also scored six touchdowns in his career.
Close, but not confirmed
1. Randy Moss, WR, Patriots: In 12 seasons, Moss has 926 receptions at 15.6 yards per catch with 148 touchdown catches, second only to Jerry Rice (197). Since joining the Patriots in 2007 (when he caught a single-season record 23 touchdowns), Moss has been on fire and, with at least one more year with Brady (he becomes a free agent after next season), he projects to increase those numbers substantially in 2010.
2. Kevin Mawae, C: His career may be over since no teams have apparently contacted him this offseason, but when it comes to Hall credentials there's little to argue about a guy with 16 seasons, 238 starts and eight Pro Bowls.
3. Ben Roethlisberger, QB, Steelers: Pittsburgh fans say he's already a lock because of the two Super Bowl wins. That may be true, but his off-field issues have clouded things for now.
4. Terrell Owens, WR: His career, like Mawae's, could be over, but I hope not because T.O. can still play. Owens has 1,006 receptions at 14.9 yards per catch and 144 touchdowns. Hey, Carter finished with 1,101 receptions and 130 touchdowns, and he's still waiting.
5. Drew Brees, QB, Saints: Brees just picked up his first Super Bowl and has thrown for more than 30,000 yards in nine seasons and has 202 touchdowns to just 110 interceptions. If he plays five more seasons at this pace, he will walk away with close to 50,000 yards and 315 TD passes and maybe another SB ring. That right there would likely get him in.
6. Antonio Gates, TE, Chargers: He's been regarded as the best at his position for most of his career. In seven seasons, the former college basketball player has 479 receptions and 59 touchdowns, which puts him ahead of Gonzalez's pace for scores, averaging just over eight TDs a season.
7. Charles Woodson, CB, Packers: In 12 seasons, the six-time Pro Bowler has 45 interceptions (including a career-high nine last season in which he was named Defensive Player of the Year), 84 passes defended, 11.5 sacks, and 17 forced fumbles.
8. Darren Sharper, FS, Saints: Surprised by Sharper being this high up in the rankings? Well, in 13 seasons, Sharper has 63 interceptions, 11 touchdowns, 7.5 sacks, eight forced fumbles and, of course, a Super Bowl ring last year.
9. Troy Polamalu, SS, Steelers: This guy can flat-out do it all on defense. He is a special talent. In seven seasons, Polamalu has 20 interceptions, seven forced fumbles and one touchdown. In the last four years, though, he has only had a 16-game season once.
10. Alan Faneca, G, Cardinals: Faneca has long been considered an elite guard. He's played in nine Pro Bowls during his 12-year career, which includes eight straight seasons with 16 starts.
At this pace, they have a shot
1. Andre Johnson, WR, Texans: In seven seasons, Johnson has 587 receptions for 7,948 yards and 42 touchdowns. To go along with that production, he's a high-character guy. Johnson can boast to being the only player besides Rice to lead the NFL in receiving back-to-back seasons since the merger. Johnson is on pace for more than 1,000 receptions, but he has to pick up the pace on touchdowns, averaging just six per year.
2. Brian Urlacher, MLB, Bears: He may not hold up to compariasons with the Ravens' Lewis, but in 10 years the six-time Pro Bowler has one more sack (37.5) than Lewis in 14 years, and 934 tackles, 17 interceptions, and eight forced fumbles.
3. Adrian Peterson, RB, Vikings: He's made three Pro Bowls in his first three seasons, averaging 1,776 yards of offense a season and 13 touchdowns. He should come close to Tomlinson numbers if he stays healthy.
4. Reggie Wayne, WR, Colts: His numbers are starting to pile up with Marvin Harrison out of the picture. In nine seasons, he has 676 receptions and 63 touchdowns. He should get to over 1,000 receptions and 100 touchdowns, but that may not be enough as receiving numbers are exploding.
5. Donovan McNabb, QB, Redskins: McNabb has been to five Pro Bowls, a Super Bowl and 12 playoff games (including five NFC title games). McNabb averages close to 3,000 yards and 19 touchdowns a season, and if he finds the same fountain of youth Elway found with Mike Shanahan, he could finish up with close to 50,000 yards and 285 touchdowns. A Super Bowl win would help his chances out a lot.
6. Champ Bailey, CB, Broncos: In 11 seasons, he has 46 interceptions, 107 passes defended and six forced fumbles and has often been referred to as the best in the game.
7. Brandon Marshall, WR, Dolphins: The guy has more than 100 receptions in each of the last three seasons and if the 26-year-old can keep his head on straight, he could wind up with well over 1,000 receptions. His yards per catch and touchdowns are not on pace with Moss or Owens, though.
8. DeMarcus Ware, OLB, Cowboys: He's been to four Pro Bowls in his first five seasons in which he's piled up 64.5 sacks (20 in 2008 alone). That's a darn good start for this 28-year-old. He could wind up with over 125 sacks and 50 forced fumbles by the end of his career.
May come up short
1. Hines Ward, WR, Steelers: After 12 seasons, 895 receptions and 78 touchdowns may leave him short. Ward is solid and durable but has never been a true No. 1 receiver.
2. Steven Jackson, RB, Rams: Such a talented athlete, but it's hard to get the recognition he may deserve on a bad team most of his career. After six seasons, he is averaging 1,221 yards from scrimmage and eight touchdowns a year.
3. Steve Smith, WR, Panthers: A little guy who's made big plays throughout his career. In nine seasons, Smith has 574 receptions and 50 TDs.
4. Ronde Barber, CB, Buccaneers: He's made five Pro Bowls in his 13-year career, in which he has 37 interceptions, 104 passes defended and 11 forced fumbles. It's been a fine career for Barber, but it might not be enough.
5. James Harrison, OLB, Steelers: Career got started late and after seven years has 38.5 sacks, three interceptions, 19 forced fumbles and 388 tackles.
Too early to tell, but signs look good
Joe Thomas, OT, Browns; Jared Allen, DE, Vikings; Darrelle Revis, CB, Jets; Patrick Willis, ILB, 49ers; Chris Johnson, RB, Titans; Jason Witten, TE, Cowboys.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I agree on Graham but would also add Motley from those '50's Browns teams.
While Sayers was a first-ballot guy I'm not sure he's the best representation of what it means to get inducted on the first try. I also have the same issue w/ Butkus over Schmidt. IMO a first ballot player does not necesarily represent an "elite" player. >>
Joe Schmidt got elected in 1973, Butkus in 1979, so it wasn't a case of going in over or being selected before Schmidt. Butkus however was elite. Sayers was also elite. But were borderline on their time of service as injuries shortened both careers. But they were both "exception" type players. They transended the game and have both been mentioned as THE greatest to ever play their positions by some. Was there ever a more feared LB than Butkus? Maybe Nitschke...A RB more feared than Sayers with the ball in his hands? Maybe Jimmy Brown, maybe Barry Sanders. But it's a short list.
I would likely be ok with Motley as a first ballot guy, but like Graham, they were caught in the first years of the HOF as they were trying to get established. If Motley was first ballot in 1968, the year he was elected, then he would have had a shot. But I don't have an issue with him needing to wait a few as they cleared the backlog.
Jason >>
I did not see Schmidt, Nitschke, or Butkus play but I have read that Butkus was overrated and that Schmidt was the better player. From what I have read Schmidt was a sideline to sideline LB who could also make plays defending the pass. I guess my point is that Butkus is known for his big hits rather than his all round play. >>
That's a good point, and in some ways I do agree with you. What you have to remember about the HOF, and all HOF's in general is that being GREAT at one thing usually trumps being really good at a bunch of things. I'm not sure where you read Butkus was overrated, and to what degree. He was NOT a coverage guy, and wasn't asked to be (kinda like DeMarcus Ware..lol). He was the thumper, the enforcer, and did just fine sideline-to-sideline. Find some of his highlight reels, he ran down plenty of ball carries before the injuries hit. He made Offenses change the way they did business. Did Joe Schmidt have that affect? Not that I know of, but yes Schmidt was good at everything, and was a great HOF caliber player. I think it's easy to look at Schmidt's pro Bowl totals and assume he must have been better. But you have to keep in mind that he also played for 13 years. Give Butkus a 13 year career with no injuries and he probably has 12 Pro Bowls. What Schmidt didn't have was the persona, character and star power as Butkus. And like it or not, agree with it or not, that star power is what distinguishes one great player vs. another. As I said, there are MANY that consider Butkus the greatest LB of all-time, I've never ever heard anyone say that about Joe Schmidt.
When you think of All-Time LBs, who comes to mind? Arguably my top 10 LBs of all-time:
1-Lawrence Taylor 2-Dick Butkus 3-Jack Lambert 4-Chuck Bednarik 5-Ray Lewis 6-Mike Singletary 7-Ray Nitschke 8-Joe Schmidt 9-Junior Seau 10-Jack Ham >>
Hello everyone, As you know, I don't post on this thread very often, but this topic brought to mind a story that I want to share. As you may or may not know, I live in Canton, Ohio , and every month, a local promoter has a card show / autograph session. For a little over three years, I have been the person that takes the autograph guest ( nearly always football, and usually a Hall of Famer ) out to eat after the show, and then take them to the airport. I have even managed to get four of them over to my house to see my extensive autograph collection. I want to prefice this by saying, # 1, I was VERY surprised at what he said to me and # 2, I do NOT want to say his name, but , trust me , this IS a true story. A couple of years ago, I got to take out an outstanding offensive lineman to eat and for almost 2 hours got to talk football and life with him. Let's just say, if you add up his , # 1 Pro Bowl selections, # 2, his 1st team ALL-PRO selections , # 3, his 2nd team ALL PRO selections, and 4th, his Super Bowl Championship teams, you WILL be double digits. Anyway, I was asking him about the best linebackers he ever played against, and he told me, WITHOUT A DOUBT, the BEST linebacker he ever played against was Mike Curtis. I was pretty surprised, and asked him about Lambert. He basically said was , Lambert was a product of his envirnment, of having 2 monsters right in front of him ( Greene & Holmes ) a Hall of Famer on one side ( Ham ) and a guy who should be in the Hall ( Russell ) on the other side of him. He said that Lambert was good against the run, ( reminding me of who he had right in front of him ) but, when it came to pass coverage, he was VERY unimpressed with his speed, and coverage skills of going side to side, or dropping back. Mike Curtis he said, had FAR inferior talent around him, and was far superior, not only in pass coverage, but against the run as well, and he said , Curtis was much more effective at shedding his blockers. Just thought I'd pass that along. Rocke >>
Thanks for sharing that. From what I have seen on the NFL Network Curtis was a tremendous OLB who might have been one of the nastiest guys to play the game. I have always wondered why he is not in the HOF. I think read some where that a strike against him is that he didn't play long enough but his career was over 10 years.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I was able to find the Link on Schmidt. I'll have to do a video search. I love debating this stuff b/c I don't think there are ever "right" answers. Always fun to hear differing opinions. >>
Thanks, good read. At many points it was like re-reading the debate we've had right here! lol
You are absolutely correct. No right and wrong, only opinions. JUST LIKE HOF voting. I want to make it clear that I really do not have a knock against Schmidt. I've seen enough of his gameplay to confidently call him one of the greatest LB's to ever play. I liked him more than Bill George, who equaled his All=Pro selections playing during the exact same years. My top 10 LB's are still the same even after our debate. I'd still put Schmidt at a rock solid #8 all-time, just behind Nitschke. That's pretty rarified air, as there have been so many great LBs through the years. I just can't see putting him above any of the other LB's in my top 10.
Hey, others might have him #1, maybe even thought he was better than LT1, who knows...But for me, based on what I've watched and learned over the last 25 years of studying NFL history and HOF players, he's #8. Then again, Unitas my #1 QB, Jim Brown my #1 RB, Rice my #1 WR...We've discussed all these type rankings on this thread in the past, and there are always differing opinions.
I'd love to see your top 10 LBs, just based on whatever knowledge you have on the subject. It isn't required to be a football historian to have an opinion. lol...The best thing about this type of debate is that it makes you think, and gives you motivation to find out things that maybe you didn't know or realize before. I was surprised at some of the posters who also backed Schmidt in the PFRA thread. Some HIGHLY respected guys who really know there stuff. Proof positive that Schmidt really was THAT good, and not many collectors are aware of who he really is or how good the guy was in his prime. I wonder how many of the 100+ collectors of this set would also rank him in the top 10 LBs of all-time? I'd guess less than half!
Jason >>
I've been trying to put together a top 10 LB list all day but its a little more difficult than I thought. LB, especially MLB, is a hard position to rate b/c their isn't a stat to help, the All Pro's and Pro Bowls can provide an incomplete picture, and even the players can bring different styles to the positon. IMO it almost comes down to preference rather than actual talent or ability.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I've been trying to put together a top 10 LB list all day but its a little more difficult than I thought. LB, especially MLB, is a hard position to rate b/c their isn't a stat to help, the All Pro's and Pro Bowls can provide an incomplete picture, and even the players can bring different styles to the positon. IMO it almost comes down to preference rather than actual talent or ability.
Good list. LOVE seeing Bednarik so high...Most do not rate him as high on the list as you and I, which is a shame. His career was mostly before the explosion of the NFL in popularity began. Its the Otto Graham syndrome. The group of guys that came after the pioneers of the 20s and 30s, but before the league started really taking off which occurred following the 1958 Championship game...
A TON of the players in that era just get completely overlooked/forgotten. If you study Bednarik at all and get to lay eyes on his game footage...He is certainly in the conversation for #1 MLB. I guess he would be my 3rd MLB after Butkus and Lambert. Not suprising, all 3 were evil, wicked, mean and nasty. Exactly what an MLB should be!
Too bad more guys aren't jumping into this conversation. I think we lost a few of our football "professors" from this thread over the years. We used to have some great debates about players here. Recently it's more of a card ogling session, which is fine I guess. But doesn't give much to talk about other than "Great Card, congrats"..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I read the same Pat Kirwin article. Being a Cards fan, what stood out to me was his glaring omission of Larry Fitzgerald from the discussion. With the numbers he has put together and the fact that he entered the league so young, I'd say he's at least on par with Andre Johnson, if not ahead of him given his playoff performances thus far. I'm sure there were others, but I was scanning the article for PK's take on Fitz and was floored when he wasn't included.
I read the same Pat Kirwin article. Being a Cards fan, what stood out to me was his glaring omission of Larry Fitzgerald from the discussion. With the numbers he has put together and the fact that he entered the league so young, I'd say he's at least on par with Andre Johnson, if not ahead of him given his playoff performances thus far. I'm sure there were others, but I was scanning the article for PK's take on Fitz and was floored when he wasn't included.
Jasen >>
I agree, and how is Marshall mentioned and Fitzgerald isn't? IMO Allen and Witten should be on the current pace list b/c they have shown HOF ability and production over several seasons. I also have to say its way to throw Chris Johnson's name out there since he has only played two seasons.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Yeah, a couple of his name selections and omissions were ming blowing to me as well. Now, I'm a big Ed Reed fan, and I think he is destined for the HOF. BUT, to call ANY Safety in today's game a stone cold lock is jumping the gun a bit IMO.
For the most part, I really like the selection we have on the Future HOF RC set. Now there are a few that probably are weak and or don't belong, but I think we have everyone on who is in the "better than 75%" chance of going in if their careers ended today. Of retired players, Kevin Greene is the only one I'd like to see added. He's consistently made the 25 the last few years, and IMO will get in before Doleman and CERTAINLY before any of the 4 below how don't belong. Hopefully something we can correct when we have our annual addition poll in January.
These are the guys on the set, who IMO, I don't think have any chance of ever making the HOF:
STEVE AT-WATER JIMMY SMITH JASON ELAM RUBEN BROWN
And LEROY BUTLER is quickly approaching this list. Butler has been eligible for 4 years and can't make the top 25. At-Water has been eligible for 6 years and can't even make the top 25. Elam just retired before getting to the point totals (2,000+) that would make him a serious candidate. And Jimmy Smith will be hurt by the explosion in WR numbers not to mention the backlog of WRs getting in. Isaac Bruce is not going to have any easy go, and may or may not get in. And he's got a pretty big numbers advantage on Smith. Ruben Brown and OG's in general are like Safeties. Better be GREAT, and while Brown made a bunch of Pro Bowls, he was never once 1st Team All-Pro. Will Shields was better and had more Pro Bowls and All-Pro's and he's a maybe/maybe not guy.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Yeah, a couple of his name selections and omissions were ming blowing to me as well. Now, I'm a big Ed Reed fan, and I think he is destined for the HOF. BUT, to call ANY Safety in today's game a stone cold lock is jumping the gun a bit IMO.
For the most part, I really like the selection we have on the Future HOF RC set. Now there are a few that probably are weak and or don't belong, but I think we have everyone on who is in the "better than 75%" chance of going in if their careers ended today. Of retired players, Kevin Greene is the only one I'd like to see added. He's consistently made the 25 the last few years, and IMO will get in before Doleman and CERTAINLY before any of the 4 below how don't belong. Hopefully something we can correct when we have our annual addition poll in January.
These are the guys on the set, who IMO, I don't think have any chance of ever making the HOF:
STEVE AT-WATER JIMMY SMITH JASON ELAM RUBEN BROWN
And LEROY BUTLER is quickly approaching this list. Butler has been eligible for 4 years and can't make the top 25. At-Water has been eligible for 6 years and can't even make the top 25. Elam just retired before getting to the point totals (2,000+) that would make him a serious candidate. And Jimmy Smith will be hurt by the explosion in WR numbers not to mention the backlog of WRs getting in. Isaac Bruce is not going to have any easy go, and may or may not get in. And he's got a pretty big numbers advantage on Smith. Ruben Brown and OG's in general are like Safeties. Better be GREAT, and while Brown made a bunch of Pro Bowls, he was never once 1st Team All-Pro. Will Shields was better and had more Pro Bowls and All-Pro's and he's a maybe/maybe not guy.
Jason >>
I agree on Greene, IMO he's the second best pass rushing OLB in league history.
I still don't get why the voters are ignoring At-water. He has the awards, the rings, and was dominant at his position.
The voters seem to like themes so Bruce should have a shot since he was part of the "Greatest Show on Turf".
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i> I agree on Greene, IMO he's the second best pass rushing OLB in league history.
I still don't get why the voters are ignoring At-water. He has the awards, the rings, and was dominant at his position.
The voters seem to like themes so Bruce should have a shot since he was part of the "Greatest Show on Turf". >>
Personally, I thought At-water was a lock HOF. I agree, he was dominant, GREAT in run support, good in coverage. Super smart at reading D...LeRoy Butler was HOF quality as well. Safety's in general lack respect because they are considered not good enough in coverage to be a CB, and not big/strong enough to be LBs.
The Rams will have Faulk in, plus Holt will end up on the ballot WITH Bruce at some point. Bruce was the better deep threat maybe, but Holt was the better all-around WR. Will depend on how high Holt can get his numbers. If he surpasses Bruce in receptions and yardage, Bruce won't get in...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Below is the list of 74 First Ballot Hall Of Fame Player rookie cards (only Players). Now I'm sure that a reader can find some surprises or exclusions but all-in-all it's a pretty impressive list of players that were selected in their first year of eligibility. These are players that were not snubbed by the voters even once. This is just me, but - I, for one, sure would be in awe of the Professional Football Hall Of Fame if this were it. This is what "exclusivity" looks like:
1933 GOUDEY SPORTS KINGS HAROLD (RED) GRANGE 3 6 1933 GOUDEY SPORTS KINGS JIM THORPE 4 1 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE EARL (DUTCH) CLARK 5 34 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE BRONKO NAGURSKI 6 6 1948 LEAF BOBBY LAYNE 7 34 1948 LEAF SAMMY BAUGH 8 52 1948 LEAF LEO NOMELLINI 9 54 1948 LEAF CHUCK BEDNARIK 10 35 1950 BOWMAN JOE PERRY 11 91 1951 BOWMAN EMLEN TUNNELL 12 96 1951 BOWMAN ERNIE STAUTNER 13 23 1952 BOWMAN GINO MARCHETTI 14 29 1952 BOWMAN HUGH MCELHENNY 15 127 1952 BOWMAN OLLIE MATSON 16 23 1954 BOWMAN GEORGE BLANDA 17 28 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN MEL HEIN 18 56 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN ERNIE NEVERS 19 97 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN DON HUTSON 20 94 1957 TOPPS RAYMOND BERRY 21 119 1957 TOPPS BART STARR 22 138 1957 TOPPS JOHNNY UNITAS 23 62 1958 TOPPS JIM BROWN 24 132 1959 TOPPS JIM PARKER 25 56 1960 TOPPS FORREST GREGG 26 197 1961 FLEER JIM OTTO 27 72 1963 FLEER LANCE ALWORTH 28 44 1963 TOPPS DAVID (DEACON) JONES 29 82 1963 TOPPS BOB LILLY 30 96 1963 TOPPS RAY NITSCHKE 31 155 1963 TOPPS LARRY WILSON 32 91 1964 PHILADELPHIA MERLIN OLSEN 33 41 1965 PHILADELPHIA PAUL WARFIELD 34 46 1965 TOPPS WILLIE BROWN 35 31 1966 PHILADELPHIA DICK BUTKUS 36 38 1966 PHILADELPHIA GALE SAYERS 37 25 1970 TOPPS JAN STENERUD 38 90 1970 TOPPS O.J. SIMPSON 39 113 1971 TOPPS KEN HOUSTON 40 156 1971 TOPPS TERRY BRADSHAW 41 245 1971 TOPPS JOE GREENE 42 186 1972 TOPPS GENE UPSHAW 43 200 1972 TOPPS ROGER STAUBACH 44 89 1973 TOPPS FRANCO HARRIS 45 115 1973 TOPPS JACK HAM 46 341 1973 TOPPS JIM LANGER 47 383 1974 TOPPS JOHN HANNAH 48 12 1975 TOPPS MEL BLOUNT 49 367 1975 TOPPS DAN FOUTS 50 148 1976 TOPPS WALTER PAYTON 51 158 1976 TOPPS RANDY WHITE 52 220 1976 TOPPS JACK LAMBERT 53 177 1977 TOPPS STEVE LARGENT 54 315 1978 TOPPS TONY DORSETT 55 390 1979 TOPPS EARL CAMPBELL 56 216 1981 TOPPS JOE MONTANA 57 51 1982 TOPPS ANTHONY MUNOZ 58 434 1982 TOPPS LAWRENCE TAYLOR 59 486 1982 TOPPS RONNIE LOTT 60 38 1983 TOPPS MIKE SINGLETARY 61 294 1983 TOPPS MARCUS ALLEN 62 63 1984 TOPPS JOHN ELWAY 63 123 1984 TOPPS DAN MARINO 64 280 1984 TOPPS ERIC DICKERSON 65 286 1984 TOPPS JACKIE SLATER 66 380 1984 TOPPS DARRELL GREEN 67 36 1984 USFL JIM KELLY 68 52 1984 USFL STEVE YOUNG 69 58 1984 TOPPS USFL REGGIE WHITE 70 251 1985 TOPPS WARREN MOON 71 389 1986 TOPPS BRUCE SMITH 72 78 1989 SCORE ROD WOODSON 73 109 1989 SCORE BRUCE MATTHEWS 74 257 1989 SCORE BARRY SANDERS 75 270 1989 SCORE TROY AIKMAN
Thank you for the list, Jason. It is fun to read. >>
Keith,
Thanks for posting this list, it's actually inspired me to re-evaluate my collecting goals as it pertains to this set.
Aside from the '35 Chicle, '79 Topps & '89 Score (where I'm doing company sets), I'm focusing exclusively on these guys until I have this list complete. To that end, please see below my current top 10 wantlist for this set:
<< <i>Point well taken. He and Sam Huff were really the first "QB of the defense" MLBs. And it's why he is considered one of the best to ever play the position. Just not THE best. Point well taken. He and Sam Huff were really the first "QB of the defense" MLBs. And it's why he is considered one of the best to ever play the position. Just not THE best.
On the link, I know one of the PFRA members, Sean Lehman is an avid Butkus basher. I'd be willing to bet if it was a story written for PFRA's Coffin Corner periodical, that Lehman wrote it. It's not an uncommon theme. There are Unitas bashers, Jim Brown bashers, Emmitt Smith bashers, Barry Sanders bashers, etc. When you are widely considered one of, if not the best to ever play your position, the ''over rated" theme is what others use when they have a differing opinion. You can find positives and negatives on every single player who's ever played the game. There are no "perfect" players.
Butkus had an 8 year run in which he played so well , and was so dominant (for mostly crappy teams) that he was considered the STANDARD to which all other MLBs are compared to this day..40+ years later! The NCAA award for best linebacker each year is the Butkus award. He took what Chuck Bednarik and NightTrain Lane started and he made it an art form. >>
I will add my own personal experience re. Butkus, and I do think he is without peer on the defensive side of the ball (not just Mid. LineB.). I recall a great Fall day in 1971 at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum whereby my beloved Rams beat the Bears 17-3. I had the good fortune of going to the Ram locker room after the game. Me, being a wide eyed and unabashed high schooler at the time, had no reservations strolling up to Ram RB Les Josephson who was looking pretty brusied up after gaining 51 yds. against the tough Bear D, and asking him "who do you think hits harder, Butkus or Buffone"? I'll never forget how stupid I felt after Josephson slowly looked up and rolled his eyes stating "Kid, I guarantee you this, there has never been nor will there ever be anyone who hits quite like Dick".....................enough said, and never forgotten.
CLASSIC !!!!! Great story !!! TOOOOOOOOOOOO Funny. AWESOME !!!!! To bad THAT wasn't captured on video !!!!
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
Thanks for posting this list, it's actually inspired me to re-evaluate my collecting goals as it pertains to this set.
Aside from the '35 Chicle, '79 Topps & '89 Score (where I'm doing company sets), I'm focusing exclusively on these guys until I have this list complete. To that end, please see below my current top 10 wantlist for this set:
If anyone has any of the above available, please let me know. Looking to pay around VCP avg. Thanks!
Jasen >>
Hi Jasen,
I have one card on your list that I can sell. I'll message you with details. Here it is below. If a hatching pattern appears in the scan - this does not appear on the card to any degree. The image has good registration:
The results of the poll are in. The majority has voted against Brett Favre for the 1990s NFL Team of the Decade. The set will remain as it is. It was also brought to our attention that the decade sets consist of players from “first team” selections only. We have updated the titles of the decade says and there will be no further additions to any decade set.
The results of the poll are in. The majority has voted against Brett Favre for the 1990s NFL Team of the Decade. The set will remain as it is. It was also brought to our attention that the decade sets consist of players from “first team” selections only. We have updated the titles of the decade says and there will be no further additions to any decade set.
Thanks for your participation in the registry! >>
Alright they listened to our emails about changes to Team of the Decade sets...now if only we can get them to change the 2000 Team of the Decade set to match the same standards.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Maybe some one has mentioned it on here already. But after the email re: Favre and the 90's team and my post I checked the 2000 team set. There are now only 24 cards. Looks like they listened and changed the 2000 Decade team set to reflect all the others.
To be honest I am shocked that they changed it. But glad. Though I wouldnt mind seeing that old checklist. I dont think I had time to download it. Anyone have a copy?
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Maybe some one has mentioned it on here already. But after the email re: Favre and the 90's team and my post I checked the 2000 team set. There are now only 24 cards. Looks like they listened and changed the 2000 Decade team set to reflect all the others.
To be honest I am shocked that they changed it. But glad. Though I wouldnt mind seeing that old checklist. I dont think I had time to download it. Anyone have a copy? >>
Well, definitely good to hear they made the right moves with the sets. Unfortunately, too little too late for me as I'm out of all the Key Card sets. I won't say this issue was all the sole reasoning for my exit, but was certainly the final straw.
I wish everyone well who collects the key card sets, and I hope PSA can find a happy medium that pleases the MAJORITY of collectors and not trying to appease every single collector who comes along with a new opinion. Common sense has to prevail at some point. In this instance, it truly did!
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
That was one fine-looking 1948 Bowman Pete Pihos (HOF) (RC) that ended at Andy Madec Sportscards' auction a few nights ago. It appeared to have deep and even ink coverage in a dark background - a background that is often interrupted with this particular card.
I placed a respectable "Max. Bid" on the vintage beauty a couple days before it ended. The night of the auction closing, I was off hiking in the Chugach Mountains and I returned to see that I had been outbid. Congratulations to someone on a nice pickup and tough card with those quality attributes. I ended up as the top underbidder - um, that's also known as the "first loser".
I'm sorry to hear that you weren't able to nab that beautiful Pihos. I know you've been looking for a nice upgrade on that card for awhile and wondererd if you'd be making a run at it. Keep the faith, brother...I'm sure another will come along.
Thanks Keith, For posting a scan of my new addition and running up my bid I have an 8 that is Ok, but the centering on the 7.5 is awesome for a tough Single Print card that is always off center.
So if anyone wants a PSA 8 Pete Pihos let me know.
FIght4OldDC here. Going through a fun divorce - and selling off my duplicates. May sound silly but in advance of having to sell a lot of my collection, I bought a lot as I will have to likely retire for a while.
Anyway, here is a current list of dups. Please email me offers at jondisaacson@gmail.com - NO LOWBALLS PLEASE. I am not in any firesale mode and like everyone on here, I have access to VCP and I will want at the high end of that data as I am stickler for centering.
Here is the list and best to you all. Happy belated Fathers Day.
Jon Isaacson
1. 65 Philadelphia Eller 9 2. 65 Philadelphia Warfield 9 3. 80 Topps Lester Hayes 9 4. 03 Sp Authentic Polamalu 7.5 5. 06 Topps Chrome Santonio Holmes 9 6. 48 Leaf Wistert 6 7. 76 Topps Brazille 8 8. 61 Fleer Baughan 5 9. 65 Philadelphia Charley Taylor 9 10. 77 Topps Harry Carson 9 11. 72 Topps Plunkett 9 12. 55 Topps AA Ace Parker 8 13. 65 Philadelphia Paul Krause 9 14. 73 Topps Bob Kuechenberg 9 15. 68 Topps Floyd Little 8 16. 72 Topps John Riggins 10
NO LOWBALLS PLEASE. I am not in any firesale mode and like everyone on here, I have access to VCP and I will want at the high end of that data
8. 61 Fleer Baughan 5
>>
Jon, What exactly is the VCP of a PSA 5 Baughan that meets your strict centering tastes? Could you please email me scans of the front and back, paying special attention to the corners. Im a stickler for nice corners.....
Joe
Edited to add: Ive always hated that 48 Bowman Pihos card. Any picture of a man grabbing a ball with his mouth wide open like that will never be flattering. If I was Pete, I would have been pissed to see that picture on my rookie card..... Not that theres anything wrong with that
NO LOWBALLS PLEASE. I am not in any firesale mode and like everyone on here, I have access to VCP and I will want at the high end of that data
8. 61 Fleer Baughan 5
>>
Jon, What exactly is the VCP of a PSA 5 Baughan that meets your strict centering tastes? Could you please email me scans of the front and back, paying special attention to the corners. Im a stickler for nice corners.....
Joe
Edited to add: Ive always hated that 48 Bowman Pihos card. Any picture of a man grabbing a ball with his mouth wide open like that will never be flattering. If I was Pete, I would have been pissed to see that picture on my rookie card..... Not that theres anything wrong with that >>
it kinda looks like the football isnt the only ball being grabed in that shot.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Jon, good luck with the sales. Nice to have duplicates like Warfield 9 & Riggins 10. Since it's a divorce, shouldn't Jon & the soon-to-be-ex each get one of the aforementioned cards? As Eddie Murphy would say......HALF!!!
NO LOWBALLS PLEASE. I am not in any firesale mode and like everyone on here, I have access to VCP and I will want at the high end of that data
8. 61 Fleer Baughan 5
>>
Jon, What exactly is the VCP of a PSA 5 Baughan that meets your strict centering tastes? Could you please email me scans of the front and back, paying special attention to the corners. Im a stickler for nice corners.....
Joe
Edited to add: Ive always hated that 48 Bowman Pihos card. Any picture of a man grabbing a ball with his mouth wide open like that will never be flattering. If I was Pete, I would have been pissed to see that picture on my rookie card..... Not that theres anything wrong with that >>
GREAT Seinfeld reference !!!! TOOOO Funny !!!! Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
So basically football is on par with Hockey and Non-Sport cards as far as popularity go? According to number of sets registered:
Baseball- 30,425---2,340 sets per award Football- 11,245---2,811 sets per award Basketball- 4,697---2,348 sets per award Non-Sport- 4,578---1,144 sets per award Hockey- 3,237---585 sets per award Misc Sports- 1,588---529 sets per award
These are WOW numbers to say the least. Hockey is equal to 29% of what football is to this Registry, yet gets equal awards? The Hockey Top 50 RC set with a lousy 7.33 GPA is better than all the football sets out there? IMO, this all intertwines with what we have seen happen to the football key card sets the past 12 months or so. This is the outcome we were looking for? The level of respect we had once earned, has now been lost due to rampant saturation of a once glorious registry. It is akin to expanding the NFL to 100 teams, the quality goes to crap and people lose interest.
Sad really.
On the bright side, Congrats to our own Jay Radke for earning one of the 4 awards for his ultra tough Brett Favre Ticket set. A year from now, we'll have 500 ticket sets and some Golf Ticket set probably ends up winning it.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
So basically football is on par with Hockey and Non-Sport cards as far as popularity go? According to number of sets registered:
Baseball- 30,425---2,340 sets per award Football- 11,245---2,811 sets per award Basketball- 4,697---2,348 sets per award Non-Sport- 4,578---1,144 sets per award Hockey- 3,237---585 sets per award Misc Sports- 1,588---529 sets per award
These are WOW numbers to say the least. Hockey is equal to 29% of what football is to this Registry, yet gets equal awards? The Hockey Top 50 RC set with a lousy 7.33 GPA is better than all the football sets out there? IMO, this all intertwines with what we have seen happen to the football key card sets the past 12 months or so. This is the outcome we were looking for? The level of respect we had once earned, has now been lost due to rampant saturation of a once glorious registry. It is akin to expanding the NFL to 100 teams, the quality goes to crap and people lose interest.
Sad really.
On the bright side, Congrats to our own Jay Radke for earning one of the 4 awards for his ultra tough Brett Favre Ticket set. A year from now, we'll have 500 ticket sets and some Golf Ticket set probably ends up winning it.
Jason >>
Jason,
Thanks for the mention of my award. If anyone out there has a ticket for my set please let me know. I dont need that many. If they would grade ticketmaster tickets i would have another 4-5 in my set. Check out my set for what I am missing.
Part of the problem is what they said in describing my award. "Each year, we make it a general rule to select only complete sets for the special awards. There are very rare exceptions and, this year, here is another example of a set that deserves special recognition despite not being 100% complete."
That said, and not to blow my own horn, but I would say that my Football HOF auto'd card set at least on par with the Hockey HOF top 50 RC card set that won best specialty set. However, I am only at 95%. Keep in mind however the best possible completion is about 97% (I am missing Len Ford and Dan Reeves (Old AFL Coach) auto'd cards to have all that are possible. There are roughly 11 auto'd cards that are probably impossible to ever find, unless a new cut auto card is issued. Considering my set includes Thorpe, Lambeau and other tough autos I was hoping for a little better showing. Then again maybe I was #2. The Hockey set that won has some rather tough looking older cards in it.
As for the numbers...well its all a numbers game. Baseball has 4 slots, Basketball has 2 and Football and Hockey have 3 each. That leaves the fight for the open class sets. Vintage Player, Modern Player, Overall Specialty Set, Regional Set, Oddball Set and maybe the Topps Specialty Set (however this is almost always Baseball). So yes if we have a lot of sets but not getting to 100% they wont be relavent for the awards. In addition if we have lots of the same types of sets (by that I mean the same cards in multiple sets...team of decade, position sets, all time team sets...just think of a Payton RC card: HOF RC, All time Bears, 2 All decade, RB and maybe others) so by default the top HOF RC set will probably have the top All time teams (at least for those that are tough to add cards, ala the All Time Packers set), All Decade and position sets all with the same cards. So I do think that duplication does hurt. But I think the explosion of the number of football sets listed skews the awards/set number. It just happened that this year football got shut out of the open class awards.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Maybe they need to expand the awards since they are so eager to expand the number of similar sets in each category.
Top Hall Of Fame set, Top Company Set, Top Key Card Set, Top Team Set, Top Rookie Player Set, Top Autograph Set...I mean at this point, why not...Would fit the recent profile for sure...
The oldest football set awarded was 1958...The most modern was 1970...So the 3 football categories were awarded to company sets spanning a 12 year period. Of the entire 11,000+ sets on the Registry, that's all that get recognized?
Ridiculous... Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Just a quick note Jason. The Hockey Top 50 RC set with a 7.33GPA is no slouch. I certainly wouldn't be picking that set to make my point. Other than 10 cards that are pretty easy, the others are monsters.
I started collecting all 4 major sports at the same time with the goal being to complete the HOF RC sets in all. After 3 years, the hockey set is by far the least advanced. Pop counts are low and the cards don't change hands very often.
Football on the other hand is now my #1 set. More competition for sure and some great fellas collecting but the cards are out there.
Now if it was the best Left Wingers named Blake I'd agree. The set mentioned though? Huge.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
Congrats to RVS makin the HOF 2010. Climbed to an incredible 9.28. This '55 AA Set with (many HOF RC's in it) is still growing and being recognized as one of the greatest sets of all time.
<< <i>Thanks. Means a lot coming from an experienced collector like yourself! >>
Were you talking to Dave there?!?! Man I wish we had a "rolling on the floor laughing " smiley face thing.....
I was just talking to a buddy on the phone and was reminded.... 3 weeks till the Natty!! Man are we nerds! Who the F travels across the country (for me anyway, some ride their banana bike -Dan) to look at pictures of guys on cardboard? You gotta love this hobby
<< <i> I was just talking to a buddy on the phone and was reminded.... 3 weeks till the Natty!! Man are we nerds! Who the F travels across the country (for me anyway, some ride their banana bike -Dan) to look at pictures of guys on cardboard? You gotta love this hobby >>
Joe,
I think you might be off the hook, since your buddy is the one who reminded you.....like you have a real life but he's just sitting around counting the days until he can attend the biggest sausage-fest of the year. Sounds to me like he is the real nerd. Anyway, here's one of my (few) recent pickups for this set, first-ballot HOFer from the class of 1980:
Joe, what does that make me -- coming all the way from Australia?? I won't say what my wife calls this obsession -- I certainly can never comment when she goes on a shopping binge!
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
<< <i>Thanks. Means a lot coming from an experienced collector like yourself! >>
Were you talking to Dave there?!?! Man I wish we had a "rolling on the floor laughing " smiley face thing.....
I was just talking to a buddy on the phone and was reminded.... 3 weeks till the Natty!! Man are we nerds! Who the F travels across the country (for me anyway, some ride their banana bike -Dan) to look at pictures of guys on cardboard? You gotta love this hobby
>>
Sweet card Joe.
That would make a great beveridge coaster.
Enjoy the man-love fest, ......oh I mean the National card show coming up men.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Fabulous comments on the Steve Sabol link. Can hardly wait 'til Spet. to see the rankings. I agree with everything said, it is all pretty much right on (although several arguments can be made for many other of the games charachters being more uncoachable than Looney). It also confirms my argument from a few months ago that it is a joke Kramer is not in the HOF. I quote:
"Best Player Not In the Hall Of Fame: Jerry Kramer
He was the lead boulder in the avalanche that was the Packer Power Sweep. In the 1962 Championship game in Yankee Stadium, he kicked three field goals through the bitter wind to provide the winning margin over the Giants, 16-7. In the Ice Bowl, he became the most famous right guard in history with his goal-line block on Jethro Pugh; so celebrated that some people think the deodorant was named for him. He endured 23 operations. He was All-Pro five times. And finally, when the NFL celebrated its 50th anniversary, the Hall of Fame selected its All-Time Team and Jerry Kramer was the guard. He was a striver, a man of straight ahead will and determination who epitomized the essence of Vince Lombardi's Packers"
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
My point on being a pioneer centered on Schmidt's dynamic ability to read offenses and attack plays. He was demonstrating an outstanding skill set for a position still in its infancy.
True, the 1 first team would have hurt Schmidt, George, or Huff but w/out the vote it hard to know where each placed.
I can't fault Butkus for not winning a Championship on those terrible Bear's teams, but I can't ignore that Schmidt won two either. IMO winning a championship only helps a great player look better.
Thanks for posting the links. I wish Butkus would have stayed healthy and had a longer career. As a person who never saw him play it does seem like he's more a product of star power and the years he was especially dominant prior to the knee injuries. He was better in pass coverage than I thought and he was a devastating hitter, I just feel he wasn't great over a prolonged period of time.
I want to say it was link a friend sent me off the pro football researchers site but I'm not sure. >>
Point well taken. He and Sam Huff were really the first "QB of the defense" MLBs. And it's why he is considered one of the best to ever play the position. Just not THE best.
On the link, I know one of the PFRA members, Sean Lehman is an avid Butkus basher. I'd be willing to bet if it was a story written for PFRA's Coffin Corner periodical, that Lehman wrote it. It's not an uncommon theme. There are Unitas bashers, Jim Brown bashers, Emmitt Smith bashers, Barry Sanders bashers, etc. When you are widely considered one of, if not the best to ever play your position, the ''over rated" theme is what others use when they have a differing opinion. You can find positives and negatives on every single player who's ever played the game. There are no "perfect" players.
Butkus had an 8 year run in which he played so well , and was so dominant (for mostly crappy teams) that he was considered the STANDARD to which all other MLBs are compared to this day..40+ years later! The NCAA award for best linebacker each year is the Butkus award. He took what Chuck Bednarik and NightTrain Lane started and he made it an art form.
If you've never seen Butkus play, you should find some footage. I'm sure YouTube or Hulu has got something. Maybe even NFL Network online. He was Ray Lewis in his prime, but meaner. I love watching Butkus, and if you enjoy see hard hits and helmets getting torn off, you gotta see the guy in action. Lambert was the smaller version who could cover. But played with the same demeanor, the way football was meant to be played. Not like the basketball on grass you mostly see today.
Jason >>
I was able to find the Link on Schmidt. I'll have to do a video search. I love debating this stuff b/c I don't think there are ever "right" answers. Always fun to hear differing opinions.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
I was able to find the Link on Schmidt. I'll have to do a video search. I love debating this stuff b/c I don't think there are ever "right" answers. Always fun to hear differing opinions. >>
Thanks, good read. At many points it was like re-reading the debate we've had right here! lol
You are absolutely correct. No right and wrong, only opinions. JUST LIKE HOF voting. I want to make it clear that I really do not have a knock against Schmidt. I've seen enough of his gameplay to confidently call him one of the greatest LB's to ever play. I liked him more than Bill George, who equaled his All=Pro selections playing during the exact same years. My top 10 LB's are still the same even after our debate. I'd still put Schmidt at a rock solid #8 all-time, just behind Nitschke. That's pretty rarified air, as there have been so many great LBs through the years. I just can't see putting him above any of the other LB's in my top 10.
Hey, others might have him #1, maybe even thought he was better than LT1, who knows...But for me, based on what I've watched and learned over the last 25 years of studying NFL history and HOF players, he's #8. Then again, Unitas my #1 QB, Jim Brown my #1 RB, Rice my #1 WR...We've discussed all these type rankings on this thread in the past, and there are always differing opinions.
I'd love to see your top 10 LBs, just based on whatever knowledge you have on the subject. It isn't required to be a football historian to have an opinion. lol...The best thing about this type of debate is that it makes you think, and gives you motivation to find out things that maybe you didn't know or realize before. I was surprised at some of the posters who also backed Schmidt in the PFRA thread. Some HIGHLY respected guys who really know there stuff. Proof positive that Schmidt really was THAT good, and not many collectors are aware of who he really is or how good the guy was in his prime. I wonder how many of the 100+ collectors of this set would also rank him in the top 10 LBs of all-time? I'd guess less than half!
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Pat Kirwan By Pat Kirwan | NFL.com
Senior Analyst
The month of June is traditionally the slowest for the NFL, which gives guys like me a chance to speculate -- on, say, things like future Hall of Famers.
The careers of quarterback Kurt Warner and left tackle Walter Jones came to an end this offseason, and I believe their bodies of work will get them into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Then again, I also believe tight end Shannon Sharpe and wide receiver Cris Carter should be in by now. The longer things linger for these two, the more I wonder what it will take for them to get in.
During my Sirius Radio show on Memorial Day, I was challenged with the question: Which active players have already done enough to punch their tickets for Canton? From that fundamental question came these questions: Which players are close to getting into the Hall? Which players have a chance? Which players will just miss out? And, for which players who seem on track is it simply too early to determine?
I asked front office executives, talked with two NFL historians who I respect, took emails from passionate fans, and looked at the current production of 37 present-day players who fall into one of these categories.
You're going to disagree with some of my views and see eye-to-eye with me on others, but here's the best that I can categorize these players.
Canton bound
1. Brett Favre, QB, Vikings: No argument here whatsoever. He's the all-time leader in passing yards (69,329) and touchdowns (497) and has a Super Bowl ring, with the very real possibility of adding another should he come back.
2. Peyton Manning, QB, Colts: Manning has already thrown for 50,128 yards (fourth all-time behind Favre, Dan Marino and John Elway) and 366 touchdowns (third all-time), is the only four-time league MVP, and has his Super Bowl ring. If the 33-year-old Manning was to play six more years at this pace, he'll finish with close to 76,000 yards and 550 touchdowns.
3. Tom Brady, QB, Patriots: It's not about stats for Brady, although a single-season record of 50 touchdown passes in 2007 was quite impressive. The only number that matters: Three. As in three Super Bowl championships (twice MVP) says it all.
4. Ray Lewis, ILB, Ravens: In 14 seasons, Lewis has been the epitome of hard-hitting defense in the NFL. He has been tackling players longer than the league has kept stats for them (since 2001). Throw in his 36.5 sacks, 28 interceptions, 12 forced fumbles, and the fact that he was the general of the 2000 Ravens' defense that led the franchise to its only Super Bowl championship, and he's a lock for the Hall.
5. Tony Gonzalez, TE, Falcons: Gonzalez is partly responsible for revolutionizing the position as we know it. He's the career leader among tight ends with 999 receptions (seventh overall) and 82 touchdowns.
6. LaDainian Tomlinson, RB, Jets: Only recently has L.T. showed signs of decline. In nine seasons as a Charger, he had 12,490 rushing yards (eighth all-time) with 138 rushing touchdowns (second all-time). On top of that, he has 530 receptions for 3,955 yards and 15 touchdowns. And he only had one of the greatest seasons ever in 2006 when he was named league MVP after scoring 31 total touchdowns and amassing 2,323 yards of offense.
7. Ed Reed, FS, Ravens: A ball hawk if there ever was one, in eight seasons Reed has 46 interceptions, 70 passes defended, nine forced fumbles, and five sacks. He's also scored six touchdowns in his career.
Close, but not confirmed
1. Randy Moss, WR, Patriots: In 12 seasons, Moss has 926 receptions at 15.6 yards per catch with 148 touchdown catches, second only to Jerry Rice (197). Since joining the Patriots in 2007 (when he caught a single-season record 23 touchdowns), Moss has been on fire and, with at least one more year with Brady (he becomes a free agent after next season), he projects to increase those numbers substantially in 2010.
2. Kevin Mawae, C: His career may be over since no teams have apparently contacted him this offseason, but when it comes to Hall credentials there's little to argue about a guy with 16 seasons, 238 starts and eight Pro Bowls.
3. Ben Roethlisberger, QB, Steelers: Pittsburgh fans say he's already a lock because of the two Super Bowl wins. That may be true, but his off-field issues have clouded things for now.
4. Terrell Owens, WR: His career, like Mawae's, could be over, but I hope not because T.O. can still play. Owens has 1,006 receptions at 14.9 yards per catch and 144 touchdowns. Hey, Carter finished with 1,101 receptions and 130 touchdowns, and he's still waiting.
5. Drew Brees, QB, Saints: Brees just picked up his first Super Bowl and has thrown for more than 30,000 yards in nine seasons and has 202 touchdowns to just 110 interceptions. If he plays five more seasons at this pace, he will walk away with close to 50,000 yards and 315 TD passes and maybe another SB ring. That right there would likely get him in.
6. Antonio Gates, TE, Chargers: He's been regarded as the best at his position for most of his career. In seven seasons, the former college basketball player has 479 receptions and 59 touchdowns, which puts him ahead of Gonzalez's pace for scores, averaging just over eight TDs a season.
7. Charles Woodson, CB, Packers: In 12 seasons, the six-time Pro Bowler has 45 interceptions (including a career-high nine last season in which he was named Defensive Player of the Year), 84 passes defended, 11.5 sacks, and 17 forced fumbles.
8. Darren Sharper, FS, Saints: Surprised by Sharper being this high up in the rankings? Well, in 13 seasons, Sharper has 63 interceptions, 11 touchdowns, 7.5 sacks, eight forced fumbles and, of course, a Super Bowl ring last year.
9. Troy Polamalu, SS, Steelers: This guy can flat-out do it all on defense. He is a special talent. In seven seasons, Polamalu has 20 interceptions, seven forced fumbles and one touchdown. In the last four years, though, he has only had a 16-game season once.
10. Alan Faneca, G, Cardinals: Faneca has long been considered an elite guard. He's played in nine Pro Bowls during his 12-year career, which includes eight straight seasons with 16 starts.
At this pace, they have a shot
1. Andre Johnson, WR, Texans: In seven seasons, Johnson has 587 receptions for 7,948 yards and 42 touchdowns. To go along with that production, he's a high-character guy. Johnson can boast to being the only player besides Rice to lead the NFL in receiving back-to-back seasons since the merger. Johnson is on pace for more than 1,000 receptions, but he has to pick up the pace on touchdowns, averaging just six per year.
2. Brian Urlacher, MLB, Bears: He may not hold up to compariasons with the Ravens' Lewis, but in 10 years the six-time Pro Bowler has one more sack (37.5) than Lewis in 14 years, and 934 tackles, 17 interceptions, and eight forced fumbles.
3. Adrian Peterson, RB, Vikings: He's made three Pro Bowls in his first three seasons, averaging 1,776 yards of offense a season and 13 touchdowns. He should come close to Tomlinson numbers if he stays healthy.
4. Reggie Wayne, WR, Colts: His numbers are starting to pile up with Marvin Harrison out of the picture. In nine seasons, he has 676 receptions and 63 touchdowns. He should get to over 1,000 receptions and 100 touchdowns, but that may not be enough as receiving numbers are exploding.
5. Donovan McNabb, QB, Redskins: McNabb has been to five Pro Bowls, a Super Bowl and 12 playoff games (including five NFC title games). McNabb averages close to 3,000 yards and 19 touchdowns a season, and if he finds the same fountain of youth Elway found with Mike Shanahan, he could finish up with close to 50,000 yards and 285 touchdowns. A Super Bowl win would help his chances out a lot.
6. Champ Bailey, CB, Broncos: In 11 seasons, he has 46 interceptions, 107 passes defended and six forced fumbles and has often been referred to as the best in the game.
7. Brandon Marshall, WR, Dolphins: The guy has more than 100 receptions in each of the last three seasons and if the 26-year-old can keep his head on straight, he could wind up with well over 1,000 receptions. His yards per catch and touchdowns are not on pace with Moss or Owens, though.
8. DeMarcus Ware, OLB, Cowboys: He's been to four Pro Bowls in his first five seasons in which he's piled up 64.5 sacks (20 in 2008 alone). That's a darn good start for this 28-year-old. He could wind up with over 125 sacks and 50 forced fumbles by the end of his career.
May come up short
1. Hines Ward, WR, Steelers: After 12 seasons, 895 receptions and 78 touchdowns may leave him short. Ward is solid and durable but has never been a true No. 1 receiver.
2. Steven Jackson, RB, Rams: Such a talented athlete, but it's hard to get the recognition he may deserve on a bad team most of his career. After six seasons, he is averaging 1,221 yards from scrimmage and eight touchdowns a year.
3. Steve Smith, WR, Panthers: A little guy who's made big plays throughout his career. In nine seasons, Smith has 574 receptions and 50 TDs.
4. Ronde Barber, CB, Buccaneers: He's made five Pro Bowls in his 13-year career, in which he has 37 interceptions, 104 passes defended and 11 forced fumbles. It's been a fine career for Barber, but it might not be enough.
5. James Harrison, OLB, Steelers: Career got started late and after seven years has 38.5 sacks, three interceptions, 19 forced fumbles and 388 tackles.
Too early to tell, but signs look good
Joe Thomas, OT, Browns; Jared Allen, DE, Vikings; Darrelle Revis, CB, Jets; Patrick Willis, ILB, 49ers; Chris Johnson, RB, Titans; Jason Witten, TE, Cowboys.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
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I agree on Graham but would also add Motley from those '50's Browns teams.
While Sayers was a first-ballot guy I'm not sure he's the best representation of what it means to get inducted on the first try. I also have the same issue w/ Butkus over Schmidt. IMO a first ballot player does not necesarily represent an "elite" player. >>
Joe Schmidt got elected in 1973, Butkus in 1979, so it wasn't a case of going in over or being selected before Schmidt. Butkus however was elite. Sayers was also elite. But were borderline on their time of service as injuries shortened both careers. But they were both "exception" type players. They transended the game and have both been mentioned as THE greatest to ever play their positions by some. Was there ever a more feared LB than Butkus? Maybe Nitschke...A RB more feared than Sayers with the ball in his hands? Maybe Jimmy Brown, maybe Barry Sanders. But it's a short list.
I would likely be ok with Motley as a first ballot guy, but like Graham, they were caught in the first years of the HOF as they were trying to get established. If Motley was first ballot in 1968, the year he was elected, then he would have had a shot. But I don't have an issue with him needing to wait a few as they cleared the backlog.
Jason >>
I did not see Schmidt, Nitschke, or Butkus play but I have read that Butkus was overrated and that Schmidt was the better player. From what I have read Schmidt was a sideline to sideline LB who could also make plays defending the pass. I guess my point is that Butkus is known for his big hits rather than his all round play. >>
That's a good point, and in some ways I do agree with you. What you have to remember about the HOF, and all HOF's in general is that being GREAT at one thing usually trumps being really good at a bunch of things. I'm not sure where you read Butkus was overrated, and to what degree. He was NOT a coverage guy, and wasn't asked to be (kinda like DeMarcus Ware..lol). He was the thumper, the enforcer, and did just fine sideline-to-sideline. Find some of his highlight reels, he ran down plenty of ball carries before the injuries hit. He made Offenses change the way they did business. Did Joe Schmidt have that affect? Not that I know of, but yes Schmidt was good at everything, and was a great HOF caliber player. I think it's easy to look at Schmidt's pro Bowl totals and assume he must have been better. But you have to keep in mind that he also played for 13 years. Give Butkus a 13 year career with no injuries and he probably has 12 Pro Bowls. What Schmidt didn't have was the persona, character and star power as Butkus. And like it or not, agree with it or not, that star power is what distinguishes one great player vs. another. As I said, there are MANY that consider Butkus the greatest LB of all-time, I've never ever heard anyone say that about Joe Schmidt.
When you think of All-Time LBs, who comes to mind? Arguably my top 10 LBs of all-time:
1-Lawrence Taylor
2-Dick Butkus
3-Jack Lambert
4-Chuck Bednarik
5-Ray Lewis
6-Mike Singletary
7-Ray Nitschke
8-Joe Schmidt
9-Junior Seau
10-Jack Ham >>
Hello everyone,
As you know, I don't post on this thread very often, but this topic brought to mind a story that I want to share. As you may or may not know, I live in Canton, Ohio , and every month, a local promoter has a card show / autograph session. For a little over three years, I have been the person that takes the autograph guest ( nearly always football, and usually a Hall of Famer ) out to eat after the show, and then take them to the airport. I have even managed to get four of them over to my house to see my extensive autograph collection.
I want to prefice this by saying, # 1, I was VERY surprised at what he said to me and # 2, I do NOT want to say his name, but , trust me , this IS a true story. A couple of years ago, I got to take out an outstanding offensive lineman to eat and for almost 2 hours got to talk football and life with him. Let's just say, if you add up his , # 1 Pro Bowl selections, # 2, his 1st team ALL-PRO selections , # 3, his 2nd team ALL PRO selections, and 4th, his Super Bowl Championship teams, you WILL be double digits. Anyway, I was asking him about the best linebackers he ever played against, and he told me, WITHOUT A DOUBT, the BEST linebacker he ever played against was Mike Curtis. I was pretty surprised, and asked him about Lambert. He basically said was , Lambert was a product of his envirnment, of having 2 monsters right in front of him ( Greene & Holmes ) a Hall of Famer on one side ( Ham ) and a guy who should be in the Hall ( Russell ) on the other side of him. He said that Lambert was good against the run, ( reminding me of who he had right in front of him ) but, when it came to pass coverage, he was VERY unimpressed with his speed, and coverage skills of going side to side, or dropping back. Mike Curtis he said, had FAR inferior talent around him, and was far superior, not only in pass coverage, but against the run as well, and he said , Curtis was much more effective at shedding his blockers.
Just thought I'd pass that along.
Rocke >>
Thanks for sharing that. From what I have seen on the NFL Network Curtis was a tremendous OLB who might have been one of the nastiest guys to play the game. I have always wondered why he is not in the HOF. I think read some where that a strike against him is that he didn't play long enough but his career was over 10 years.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
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I was able to find the Link on Schmidt. I'll have to do a video search. I love debating this stuff b/c I don't think there are ever "right" answers. Always fun to hear differing opinions. >>
Thanks, good read. At many points it was like re-reading the debate we've had right here! lol
You are absolutely correct. No right and wrong, only opinions. JUST LIKE HOF voting. I want to make it clear that I really do not have a knock against Schmidt. I've seen enough of his gameplay to confidently call him one of the greatest LB's to ever play. I liked him more than Bill George, who equaled his All=Pro selections playing during the exact same years. My top 10 LB's are still the same even after our debate. I'd still put Schmidt at a rock solid #8 all-time, just behind Nitschke. That's pretty rarified air, as there have been so many great LBs through the years. I just can't see putting him above any of the other LB's in my top 10.
Hey, others might have him #1, maybe even thought he was better than LT1, who knows...But for me, based on what I've watched and learned over the last 25 years of studying NFL history and HOF players, he's #8. Then again, Unitas my #1 QB, Jim Brown my #1 RB, Rice my #1 WR...We've discussed all these type rankings on this thread in the past, and there are always differing opinions.
I'd love to see your top 10 LBs, just based on whatever knowledge you have on the subject. It isn't required to be a football historian to have an opinion. lol...The best thing about this type of debate is that it makes you think, and gives you motivation to find out things that maybe you didn't know or realize before. I was surprised at some of the posters who also backed Schmidt in the PFRA thread. Some HIGHLY respected guys who really know there stuff. Proof positive that Schmidt really was THAT good, and not many collectors are aware of who he really is or how good the guy was in his prime. I wonder how many of the 100+ collectors of this set would also rank him in the top 10 LBs of all-time? I'd guess less than half!
Jason >>
I've been trying to put together a top 10 LB list all day but its a little more difficult than I thought. LB, especially MLB, is a hard position to rate b/c their isn't a stat to help, the All Pro's and Pro Bowls can provide an incomplete picture, and even the players can bring different styles to the positon. IMO it almost comes down to preference rather than actual talent or ability.
My Top Ten (in now way set in stone lol)
1. Bednarik
2. Schmidt
3. Nitschke
4. Butkus
5. Lanier
6. Lampbert
7. Singletary
8. Seau
9. Lewis
10. George/Huff
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
I've been trying to put together a top 10 LB list all day but its a little more difficult than I thought. LB, especially MLB, is a hard position to rate b/c their isn't a stat to help, the All Pro's and Pro Bowls can provide an incomplete picture, and even the players can bring different styles to the positon. IMO it almost comes down to preference rather than actual talent or ability.
My Top Ten (in now way set in stone lol)
1. Bednarik
2. Schmidt
3. Nitschke
4. Butkus
5. Lanier
6. Lampbert
7. Singletary
8. Seau
9. Lewis
10. George/Huff >>
Good list. LOVE seeing Bednarik so high...Most do not rate him as high on the list as you and I, which is a shame. His career was mostly before the explosion of the NFL in popularity began. Its the Otto Graham syndrome. The group of guys that came after the pioneers of the 20s and 30s, but before the league started really taking off which occurred following the 1958 Championship game...
A TON of the players in that era just get completely overlooked/forgotten. If you study Bednarik at all and get to lay eyes on his game footage...He is certainly in the conversation for #1 MLB. I guess he would be my 3rd MLB after Butkus and Lambert. Not suprising, all 3 were evil, wicked, mean and nasty. Exactly what an MLB should be!
Too bad more guys aren't jumping into this conversation. I think we lost a few of our football "professors" from this thread over the years. We used to have some great debates about players here. Recently it's more of a card ogling session, which is fine I guess. But doesn't give much to talk about other than "Great Card, congrats"..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I read the same Pat Kirwin article. Being a Cards fan, what stood out to me was his glaring omission of Larry Fitzgerald from the discussion. With the numbers he has put together and the fact that he entered the league so young, I'd say he's at least on par with Andre Johnson, if not ahead of him given his playoff performances thus far. I'm sure there were others, but I was scanning the article for PK's take on Fitz and was floored when he wasn't included.
Jasen
<< <i>Jason,
I read the same Pat Kirwin article. Being a Cards fan, what stood out to me was his glaring omission of Larry Fitzgerald from the discussion. With the numbers he has put together and the fact that he entered the league so young, I'd say he's at least on par with Andre Johnson, if not ahead of him given his playoff performances thus far. I'm sure there were others, but I was scanning the article for PK's take on Fitz and was floored when he wasn't included.
Jasen >>
I agree, and how is Marshall mentioned and Fitzgerald isn't? IMO Allen and Witten should be on the current pace list b/c they have shown HOF ability and production over several seasons. I also have to say its way to throw Chris Johnson's name out there since he has only played two seasons.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
For the most part, I really like the selection we have on the Future HOF RC set. Now there are a few that probably are weak and or don't belong, but I think we have everyone on who is in the "better than 75%" chance of going in if their careers ended today. Of retired players, Kevin Greene is the only one I'd like to see added. He's consistently made the 25 the last few years, and IMO will get in before Doleman and CERTAINLY before any of the 4 below how don't belong. Hopefully something we can correct when we have our annual addition poll in January.
These are the guys on the set, who IMO, I don't think have any chance of ever making the HOF:
STEVE AT-WATER
JIMMY SMITH
JASON ELAM
RUBEN BROWN
And LEROY BUTLER is quickly approaching this list. Butler has been eligible for 4 years and can't make the top 25. At-Water has been eligible for 6 years and can't even make the top 25. Elam just retired before getting to the point totals (2,000+) that would make him a serious candidate. And Jimmy Smith will be hurt by the explosion in WR numbers not to mention the backlog of WRs getting in. Isaac Bruce is not going to have any easy go, and may or may not get in. And he's got a pretty big numbers advantage on Smith. Ruben Brown and OG's in general are like Safeties. Better be GREAT, and while Brown made a bunch of Pro Bowls, he was never once 1st Team All-Pro. Will Shields was better and had more Pro Bowls and All-Pro's and he's a maybe/maybe not guy.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Yeah, a couple of his name selections and omissions were ming blowing to me as well. Now, I'm a big Ed Reed fan, and I think he is destined for the HOF. BUT, to call ANY Safety in today's game a stone cold lock is jumping the gun a bit IMO.
For the most part, I really like the selection we have on the Future HOF RC set. Now there are a few that probably are weak and or don't belong, but I think we have everyone on who is in the "better than 75%" chance of going in if their careers ended today. Of retired players, Kevin Greene is the only one I'd like to see added. He's consistently made the 25 the last few years, and IMO will get in before Doleman and CERTAINLY before any of the 4 below how don't belong. Hopefully something we can correct when we have our annual addition poll in January.
These are the guys on the set, who IMO, I don't think have any chance of ever making the HOF:
STEVE AT-WATER
JIMMY SMITH
JASON ELAM
RUBEN BROWN
And LEROY BUTLER is quickly approaching this list. Butler has been eligible for 4 years and can't make the top 25. At-Water has been eligible for 6 years and can't even make the top 25. Elam just retired before getting to the point totals (2,000+) that would make him a serious candidate. And Jimmy Smith will be hurt by the explosion in WR numbers not to mention the backlog of WRs getting in. Isaac Bruce is not going to have any easy go, and may or may not get in. And he's got a pretty big numbers advantage on Smith. Ruben Brown and OG's in general are like Safeties. Better be GREAT, and while Brown made a bunch of Pro Bowls, he was never once 1st Team All-Pro. Will Shields was better and had more Pro Bowls and All-Pro's and he's a maybe/maybe not guy.
Jason >>
I agree on Greene, IMO he's the second best pass rushing OLB in league history.
I still don't get why the voters are ignoring At-water. He has the awards, the rings, and was dominant at his position.
The voters seem to like themes so Bruce should have a shot since he was part of the "Greatest Show on Turf".
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
I agree on Greene, IMO he's the second best pass rushing OLB in league history.
I still don't get why the voters are ignoring At-water. He has the awards, the rings, and was dominant at his position.
The voters seem to like themes so Bruce should have a shot since he was part of the "Greatest Show on Turf". >>
Personally, I thought At-water was a lock HOF. I agree, he was dominant, GREAT in run support, good in coverage. Super smart at reading D...LeRoy Butler was HOF quality as well. Safety's in general lack respect because they are considered not good enough in coverage to be a CB, and not big/strong enough to be LBs.
The Rams will have Faulk in, plus Holt will end up on the ballot WITH Bruce at some point. Bruce was the better deep threat maybe, but Holt was the better all-around WR. Will depend on how high Holt can get his numbers. If he surpasses Bruce in receptions and yardage, Bruce won't get in...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Below is the list of 74 First Ballot Hall Of Fame Player rookie cards (only Players). Now I'm sure that a reader can find some surprises or exclusions but all-in-all it's a pretty impressive list of players that were selected in their first year of eligibility. These are players that were not snubbed by the voters even once. This is just me, but - I, for one, sure would be in awe of the Professional Football Hall Of Fame if this were it. This is what "exclusivity" looks like:
1933 GOUDEY SPORTS KINGS HAROLD (RED) GRANGE
3 6 1933 GOUDEY SPORTS KINGS JIM THORPE
4 1 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE EARL (DUTCH) CLARK
5 34 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE BRONKO NAGURSKI
6 6 1948 LEAF BOBBY LAYNE
7 34 1948 LEAF SAMMY BAUGH
8 52 1948 LEAF LEO NOMELLINI
9 54 1948 LEAF CHUCK BEDNARIK
10 35 1950 BOWMAN JOE PERRY
11 91 1951 BOWMAN EMLEN TUNNELL
12 96 1951 BOWMAN ERNIE STAUTNER
13 23 1952 BOWMAN GINO MARCHETTI
14 29 1952 BOWMAN HUGH MCELHENNY
15 127 1952 BOWMAN OLLIE MATSON
16 23 1954 BOWMAN GEORGE BLANDA
17 28 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN MEL HEIN
18 56 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN ERNIE NEVERS
19 97 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN DON HUTSON
20 94 1957 TOPPS RAYMOND BERRY
21 119 1957 TOPPS BART STARR
22 138 1957 TOPPS JOHNNY UNITAS
23 62 1958 TOPPS JIM BROWN
24 132 1959 TOPPS JIM PARKER
25 56 1960 TOPPS FORREST GREGG
26 197 1961 FLEER JIM OTTO
27 72 1963 FLEER LANCE ALWORTH
28 44 1963 TOPPS DAVID (DEACON) JONES
29 82 1963 TOPPS BOB LILLY
30 96 1963 TOPPS RAY NITSCHKE
31 155 1963 TOPPS LARRY WILSON
32 91 1964 PHILADELPHIA MERLIN OLSEN
33 41 1965 PHILADELPHIA PAUL WARFIELD
34 46 1965 TOPPS WILLIE BROWN
35 31 1966 PHILADELPHIA DICK BUTKUS
36 38 1966 PHILADELPHIA GALE SAYERS
37 25 1970 TOPPS JAN STENERUD
38 90 1970 TOPPS O.J. SIMPSON
39 113 1971 TOPPS KEN HOUSTON
40 156 1971 TOPPS TERRY BRADSHAW
41 245 1971 TOPPS JOE GREENE
42 186 1972 TOPPS GENE UPSHAW
43 200 1972 TOPPS ROGER STAUBACH
44 89 1973 TOPPS FRANCO HARRIS
45 115 1973 TOPPS JACK HAM
46 341 1973 TOPPS JIM LANGER
47 383 1974 TOPPS JOHN HANNAH
48 12 1975 TOPPS MEL BLOUNT
49 367 1975 TOPPS DAN FOUTS
50 148 1976 TOPPS WALTER PAYTON
51 158 1976 TOPPS RANDY WHITE
52 220 1976 TOPPS JACK LAMBERT
53 177 1977 TOPPS STEVE LARGENT
54 315 1978 TOPPS TONY DORSETT
55 390 1979 TOPPS EARL CAMPBELL
56 216 1981 TOPPS JOE MONTANA
57 51 1982 TOPPS ANTHONY MUNOZ
58 434 1982 TOPPS LAWRENCE TAYLOR
59 486 1982 TOPPS RONNIE LOTT
60 38 1983 TOPPS MIKE SINGLETARY
61 294 1983 TOPPS MARCUS ALLEN
62 63 1984 TOPPS JOHN ELWAY
63 123 1984 TOPPS DAN MARINO
64 280 1984 TOPPS ERIC DICKERSON
65 286 1984 TOPPS JACKIE SLATER
66 380 1984 TOPPS DARRELL GREEN
67 36 1984 USFL JIM KELLY
68 52 1984 USFL STEVE YOUNG
69 58 1984 TOPPS USFL REGGIE WHITE
70 251 1985 TOPPS WARREN MOON
71 389 1986 TOPPS BRUCE SMITH
72 78 1989 SCORE ROD WOODSON
73 109 1989 SCORE BRUCE MATTHEWS
74 257 1989 SCORE BARRY SANDERS
75 270 1989 SCORE TROY AIKMAN
Thank you for the list, Jason. It is fun to read. >>
Keith,
Thanks for posting this list, it's actually inspired me to re-evaluate my collecting goals as it pertains to this set.
Aside from the '35 Chicle, '79 Topps & '89 Score (where I'm doing company sets), I'm focusing exclusively on these guys until I have this list complete. To that end, please see below my current top 10 wantlist for this set:
'50 Bowman Perry 7
'51 Bowman Stautner 7
'51 Bowman Tunnell 7
'52 Bowman Marchetti (large) 7
'52 Bowman McElhenny (large) 7
'55 Topps A/A Nevers 8
'57 Topps Berry 7
'61 Fleer Otto 9
'65 Phila. Warfield 8
'65 Topps Brown 8
If anyone has any of the above available, please let me know. Looking to pay around VCP avg. Thanks!
Jasen
<< <i>Point well taken. He and Sam Huff were really the first "QB of the defense" MLBs. And it's why he is considered one of the best to ever play the position. Just not THE best. Point well taken. He and Sam Huff were really the first "QB of the defense" MLBs. And it's why he is considered one of the best to ever play the position. Just not THE best.
On the link, I know one of the PFRA members, Sean Lehman is an avid Butkus basher. I'd be willing to bet if it was a story written for PFRA's Coffin Corner periodical, that Lehman wrote it. It's not an uncommon theme. There are Unitas bashers, Jim Brown bashers, Emmitt Smith bashers, Barry Sanders bashers, etc. When you are widely considered one of, if not the best to ever play your position, the ''over rated" theme is what others use when they have a differing opinion. You can find positives and negatives on every single player who's ever played the game. There are no "perfect" players.
Butkus had an 8 year run in which he played so well , and was so dominant (for mostly crappy teams) that he was considered the STANDARD to which all other MLBs are compared to this day..40+ years later! The NCAA award for best linebacker each year is the Butkus award. He took what Chuck Bednarik and NightTrain Lane started and he made it an art form.
>>
I will add my own personal experience re. Butkus, and I do think he is without peer on the defensive side of the ball (not just Mid. LineB.). I recall a great Fall day in 1971 at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum whereby my beloved Rams beat the Bears 17-3. I had the good fortune of going to the Ram locker room after the game. Me, being a wide eyed and unabashed high schooler at the time, had no reservations strolling up to Ram RB Les Josephson who was looking pretty brusied up after gaining 51 yds. against the tough Bear D, and asking him "who do you think hits harder, Butkus or Buffone"? I'll never forget how stupid I felt after Josephson slowly looked up and rolled his eyes stating "Kid, I guarantee you this, there has never been nor will there ever be anyone who hits quite like Dick".....................enough said, and never forgotten.
Great story !!!
TOOOOOOOOOOOO Funny.
AWESOME !!!!!
To bad THAT wasn't captured on video !!!!
<< <i>Keith,
Thanks for posting this list, it's actually inspired me to re-evaluate my collecting goals as it pertains to this set.
Aside from the '35 Chicle, '79 Topps & '89 Score (where I'm doing company sets), I'm focusing exclusively on these guys until I have this list complete. To that end, please see below my current top 10 wantlist for this set:
'50 Bowman Perry 7
'51 Bowman Stautner 7
'51 Bowman Tunnell 7
'52 Bowman Marchetti (large) 7
'52 Bowman McElhenny (large) 7
'55 Topps A/A Nevers 8
'57 Topps Berry 7
'61 Fleer Otto 9
'65 Phila. Warfield 8
'65 Topps Brown 8
If anyone has any of the above available, please let me know. Looking to pay around VCP avg. Thanks!
Jasen >>
Hi Jasen,
I have one card on your list that I can sell. I'll message you with details. Here it is below. If a hatching pattern appears in the scan - this does not appear on the card to any degree. The image has good registration:
Mark
--------------------------------------------
NFL HOF RC SET
The results of the poll are in. The majority has voted against Brett Favre for the 1990s NFL Team of the Decade. The set will remain as it is. It was also brought to our attention that the decade sets consist of players from “first team” selections only. We have updated the titles of the decade says and there will be no further additions to any decade set.
Thanks for your participation in the registry!
<< <i>From PSA!
The results of the poll are in. The majority has voted against Brett Favre for the 1990s NFL Team of the Decade. The set will remain as it is. It was also brought to our attention that the decade sets consist of players from “first team” selections only. We have updated the titles of the decade says and there will be no further additions to any decade set.
Thanks for your participation in the registry! >>
Alright they listened to our emails about changes to Team of the Decade sets...now if only we can get them to change the 2000 Team of the Decade set to match the same standards.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
To be honest I am shocked that they changed it. But glad. Though I wouldnt mind seeing that old checklist. I dont think I had time to download it. Anyone have a copy?
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Maybe some one has mentioned it on here already. But after the email re: Favre and the 90's team and my post I checked the 2000 team set. There are now only 24 cards. Looks like they listened and changed the 2000 Decade team set to reflect all the others.
To be honest I am shocked that they changed it. But glad. Though I wouldnt mind seeing that old checklist. I dont think I had time to download it. Anyone have a copy? >>
Well, definitely good to hear they made the right moves with the sets. Unfortunately, too little too late for me as I'm out of all the Key Card sets. I won't say this issue was all the sole reasoning for my exit, but was certainly the final straw.
I wish everyone well who collects the key card sets, and I hope PSA can find a happy medium that pleases the MAJORITY of collectors and not trying to appease every single collector who comes along with a new opinion. Common sense has to prevail at some point. In this instance, it truly did!
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>'50 Bowman Perry 7
'57 Topps Berry 7
'65 Phila. Warfield 8 >>
Jasen:
Can help you out with:
1950 Bowman Joe Perry PSA 8
1957 Topps Raymond Berry PSA 7
1965 Philadelphia Paul Warfield PSA 8
I placed a respectable "Max. Bid" on the vintage beauty a couple days before it ended. The night of the auction closing, I was off hiking in the Chugach Mountains and I returned to see that I had been outbid. Congratulations to someone on a nice pickup and tough card with those quality attributes. I ended up as the top underbidder - um, that's also known as the "first loser".
I'm sorry to hear that you weren't able to nab that beautiful Pihos. I know you've been looking for a nice upgrade on that card for awhile and wondererd if you'd be making a run at it. Keep the faith, brother...I'm sure another will come along.
Jasen
For posting a scan of my new addition and running up my bid
I have an 8 that is Ok, but the centering on the 7.5 is awesome for a tough Single Print card that is always off center.
So if anyone wants a PSA 8 Pete Pihos let me know.
FIght4OldDC here. Going through a fun divorce - and selling off my duplicates. May sound silly but in advance of having to sell a lot of my collection, I bought a lot as I will have to likely retire for a while.
Anyway, here is a current list of dups. Please email me offers at jondisaacson@gmail.com - NO LOWBALLS PLEASE. I am not in any firesale mode and like everyone on here, I have access to VCP and I will want at the high end of that data as I am stickler for centering.
Here is the list and best to you all. Happy belated Fathers Day.
Jon Isaacson
1. 65 Philadelphia Eller 9
2. 65 Philadelphia Warfield 9
3. 80 Topps Lester Hayes 9
4. 03 Sp Authentic Polamalu 7.5
5. 06 Topps Chrome Santonio Holmes 9
6. 48 Leaf Wistert 6
7. 76 Topps Brazille 8
8. 61 Fleer Baughan 5
9. 65 Philadelphia Charley Taylor 9
10. 77 Topps Harry Carson 9
11. 72 Topps Plunkett 9
12. 55 Topps AA Ace Parker 8
13. 65 Philadelphia Paul Krause 9
14. 73 Topps Bob Kuechenberg 9
15. 68 Topps Floyd Little 8
16. 72 Topps John Riggins 10
<< <i>
NO LOWBALLS PLEASE. I am not in any firesale mode and like everyone on here, I have access to VCP and I will want at the high end of that data
8. 61 Fleer Baughan 5
>>
Jon,
What exactly is the VCP of a PSA 5 Baughan that meets your strict centering tastes? Could you please email me scans of the front and back, paying special attention to the corners. Im a stickler for nice corners.....
Joe
Edited to add: Ive always hated that 48 Bowman Pihos card. Any picture of a man grabbing a ball with his mouth wide open like that will never be flattering. If I was Pete, I would have been pissed to see that picture on my rookie card..... Not that theres anything wrong with that
<< <i>
<< <i>
NO LOWBALLS PLEASE. I am not in any firesale mode and like everyone on here, I have access to VCP and I will want at the high end of that data
8. 61 Fleer Baughan 5
>>
Jon,
What exactly is the VCP of a PSA 5 Baughan that meets your strict centering tastes? Could you please email me scans of the front and back, paying special attention to the corners. Im a stickler for nice corners.....
Joe
Edited to add: Ive always hated that 48 Bowman Pihos card. Any picture of a man grabbing a ball with his mouth wide open like that will never be flattering. If I was Pete, I would have been pissed to see that picture on my rookie card..... Not that theres anything wrong with that >>
it kinda looks like the football isnt the only ball being grabed in that shot.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Jasen
<< <i>
<< <i>
NO LOWBALLS PLEASE. I am not in any firesale mode and like everyone on here, I have access to VCP and I will want at the high end of that data
8. 61 Fleer Baughan 5
>>
Jon,
What exactly is the VCP of a PSA 5 Baughan that meets your strict centering tastes? Could you please email me scans of the front and back, paying special attention to the corners. Im a stickler for nice corners.....
Joe
Edited to add: Ive always hated that 48 Bowman Pihos card. Any picture of a man grabbing a ball with his mouth wide open like that will never be flattering. If I was Pete, I would have been pissed to see that picture on my rookie card..... Not that theres anything wrong with that >>
GREAT Seinfeld reference !!!!
TOOOO Funny !!!!
Rocke
Baseball- 13 Awards
Football- 4 Awards
Hockey- 4 Awards
Non-Sport- 4 Awards
Basketball- 2 Awards
NASCAR- 2 Awards
Boxing- 1 Award
So basically football is on par with Hockey and Non-Sport cards as far as popularity go? According to number of sets registered:
Baseball- 30,425---2,340 sets per award
Football- 11,245---2,811 sets per award
Basketball- 4,697---2,348 sets per award
Non-Sport- 4,578---1,144 sets per award
Hockey- 3,237---585 sets per award
Misc Sports- 1,588---529 sets per award
These are WOW numbers to say the least. Hockey is equal to 29% of what football is to this Registry, yet gets equal awards? The Hockey Top 50 RC set with a lousy 7.33 GPA is better than all the football sets out there? IMO, this all intertwines with what we have seen happen to the football key card sets the past 12 months or so. This is the outcome we were looking for? The level of respect we had once earned, has now been lost due to rampant saturation of a once glorious registry. It is akin to expanding the NFL to 100 teams, the quality goes to crap and people lose interest.
Sad really.
On the bright side, Congrats to our own Jay Radke for earning one of the 4 awards for his ultra tough Brett Favre Ticket set. A year from now, we'll have 500 ticket sets and some Golf Ticket set probably ends up winning it.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Well, Set Registry awards are out. Football got absolutely hosed...Adding up all of the recognized sets, here's your breakdown:
Baseball- 13 Awards
Football- 4 Awards
Hockey- 4 Awards
Non-Sport- 4 Awards
Basketball- 2 Awards
NASCAR- 2 Awards
Boxing- 1 Award
So basically football is on par with Hockey and Non-Sport cards as far as popularity go? According to number of sets registered:
Baseball- 30,425---2,340 sets per award
Football- 11,245---2,811 sets per award
Basketball- 4,697---2,348 sets per award
Non-Sport- 4,578---1,144 sets per award
Hockey- 3,237---585 sets per award
Misc Sports- 1,588---529 sets per award
These are WOW numbers to say the least. Hockey is equal to 29% of what football is to this Registry, yet gets equal awards? The Hockey Top 50 RC set with a lousy 7.33 GPA is better than all the football sets out there? IMO, this all intertwines with what we have seen happen to the football key card sets the past 12 months or so. This is the outcome we were looking for? The level of respect we had once earned, has now been lost due to rampant saturation of a once glorious registry. It is akin to expanding the NFL to 100 teams, the quality goes to crap and people lose interest.
Sad really.
On the bright side, Congrats to our own Jay Radke for earning one of the 4 awards for his ultra tough Brett Favre Ticket set. A year from now, we'll have 500 ticket sets and some Golf Ticket set probably ends up winning it.
Jason >>
Jason,
Thanks for the mention of my award. If anyone out there has a ticket for my set please let me know. I dont need that many. If they would grade ticketmaster tickets i would have another 4-5 in my set. Check out my set for what I am missing.
Part of the problem is what they said in describing my award. "Each year, we make it a general rule to select only complete sets for the special awards. There are very rare exceptions and, this year, here is another example of a set that deserves special recognition despite not being 100% complete."
That said, and not to blow my own horn, but I would say that my Football HOF auto'd card set at least on par with the Hockey HOF top 50 RC card set that won best specialty set. However, I am only at 95%. Keep in mind however the best possible completion is about 97% (I am missing Len Ford and Dan Reeves (Old AFL Coach) auto'd cards to have all that are possible. There are roughly 11 auto'd cards that are probably impossible to ever find, unless a new cut auto card is issued. Considering my set includes Thorpe, Lambeau and other tough autos I was hoping for a little better showing. Then again maybe I was #2. The Hockey set that won has some rather tough looking older cards in it.
As for the numbers...well its all a numbers game. Baseball has 4 slots, Basketball has 2 and Football and Hockey have 3 each. That leaves the fight for the open class sets. Vintage Player, Modern Player, Overall Specialty Set, Regional Set, Oddball Set and maybe the Topps Specialty Set (however this is almost always Baseball). So yes if we have a lot of sets but not getting to 100% they wont be relavent for the awards. In addition if we have lots of the same types of sets (by that I mean the same cards in multiple sets...team of decade, position sets, all time team sets...just think of a Payton RC card: HOF RC, All time Bears, 2 All decade, RB and maybe others) so by default the top HOF RC set will probably have the top All time teams (at least for those that are tough to add cards, ala the All Time Packers set), All Decade and position sets all with the same cards. So I do think that duplication does hurt. But I think the explosion of the number of football sets listed skews the awards/set number. It just happened that this year football got shut out of the open class awards.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Top Hall Of Fame set, Top Company Set, Top Key Card Set, Top Team Set, Top Rookie Player Set, Top Autograph Set...I mean at this point, why not...Would fit the recent profile for sure...
The oldest football set awarded was 1958...The most modern was 1970...So the 3 football categories were awarded to company sets spanning a 12 year period. Of the entire 11,000+ sets on the Registry, that's all that get recognized?
Ridiculous...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jasen
I started collecting all 4 major sports at the same time with the goal being to complete the HOF RC sets in all. After 3 years, the hockey set is by far the least advanced. Pop counts are low and the cards don't change hands very often.
Football on the other hand is now my #1 set. More competition for sure and some great fellas collecting but the cards are out there.
Now if it was the best Left Wingers named Blake I'd agree. The set mentioned though? Huge.
Fletch
Anyone have any nice recent pickups?
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Thanks. Means a lot coming from an experienced collector like yourself! >>
Were you talking to Dave there?!?! Man I wish we had a "rolling on the floor laughing " smiley face thing.....
I was just talking to a buddy on the phone and was reminded.... 3 weeks till the Natty!! Man are we nerds! Who the F travels across the country (for me anyway, some ride their banana bike -Dan) to look at pictures of guys on cardboard? You gotta love this hobby
<< <i>
I was just talking to a buddy on the phone and was reminded.... 3 weeks till the Natty!! Man are we nerds! Who the F travels across the country (for me anyway, some ride their banana bike -Dan) to look at pictures of guys on cardboard? You gotta love this hobby >>
Joe,
I think you might be off the hook, since your buddy is the one who reminded you.....like you have a real life but he's just sitting around counting the days until he can attend the biggest sausage-fest of the year. Sounds to me like he is the real nerd. Anyway, here's one of my (few) recent pickups for this set, first-ballot HOFer from the class of 1980:
Jasen
And here's another one for you......
BTW....Nice Largent....
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks. Means a lot coming from an experienced collector like yourself! >>
Were you talking to Dave there?!?! Man I wish we had a "rolling on the floor laughing " smiley face thing.....
I was just talking to a buddy on the phone and was reminded.... 3 weeks till the Natty!! Man are we nerds! Who the F travels across the country (for me anyway, some ride their banana bike -Dan) to look at pictures of guys on cardboard? You gotta love this hobby
Sweet card Joe.
That would make a great beveridge coaster.
Enjoy the man-love fest, ......oh I mean the National card show coming up men.
Link to Story
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
"Best Player Not In the Hall Of Fame: Jerry Kramer
He was the lead boulder in the avalanche that was the Packer Power Sweep. In the 1962 Championship game in Yankee Stadium, he kicked three field goals through the bitter wind to provide the winning margin over the Giants, 16-7. In the Ice Bowl, he became the most famous right guard in history with his goal-line block on Jethro Pugh; so celebrated that some people think the deodorant was named for him. He endured 23 operations. He was All-Pro five times. And finally, when the NFL celebrated its 50th anniversary, the Hall of Fame selected its All-Time Team and Jerry Kramer was the guard. He was a striver, a man of straight ahead will and determination who epitomized the essence of Vince Lombardi's Packers"
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/steve_sabol/07/16/mmqb/index.html?xid=si_nfl#ixzz0u9Scmhjn