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Interesting possible side effect to Plus graded coins
Prethen
Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭
I read a letter to the editor in the Numismatic News where they pointed out that non-plus graded coins in PCGS holders, fell in value. If that's correct, then his frustration and irritation is completely understood. All (or nearly all) of my coins were bought before CAC stickers and (of course) the Plus system. Does this mean that anytime I go to sell any one of my slabbed coins that someone will go...hey this doesn't have a Plus on it (or the lovely looking green bean)...guess I'll have to offer you less. Well, that just sucks and it's unfair.
Yes, yes...I can already hear some of you grumble, "Well I never buy the plastic, I buy the coin". Unfortunately, a lot of dealers out there focus on the plastic and the label and finding the ones that don't might become a tougher gambit.
There will be those that are happy to play the slab-o-matic game and resend in all their coins for their shot at "upgrades". All I'm saying is that I'm quite disappointed if this ends up being the true result of the Plus system.
Yes, yes...I can already hear some of you grumble, "Well I never buy the plastic, I buy the coin". Unfortunately, a lot of dealers out there focus on the plastic and the label and finding the ones that don't might become a tougher gambit.
There will be those that are happy to play the slab-o-matic game and resend in all their coins for their shot at "upgrades". All I'm saying is that I'm quite disappointed if this ends up being the true result of the Plus system.
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<< <i>I read a letter to the editor in the Numismatic News where they pointed out that non-plus graded coins in PCGS holders, fell in value. If that's correct, then his frustration and irritation is completely understood. All (or nearly all) of my coins were bought before CAC stickers and (of course) the Plus system. Does this mean that anytime I go to sell any one of my slabbed coins that someone will go...hey this doesn't have a Plus on it (or the lovely looking green bean)...guess I'll have to offer you less. Well, that just sucks and it's unfair.
Yes, yes...I can already hear some of you grumble, "Well I never buy the plastic, I buy the coin". Unfortunately, a lot of dealers out there focus on the plastic and the label and finding the ones that don't might become a tougher gambit.
There will be those that are happy to play the slab-o-matic game and resend in all their coins for their shot at "upgrades". All I'm saying is that I'm quite disappointed if this ends up being the true result of the Plus system. >>
Also, just to add: Dealers focus on the plastic only if the coin is 'good' to 'excellent' for the grade. If the coin is overgraded, they don't focus on the plastic, but rather they'll tell you the plastic 'is wrong' and the coin is overgraded.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>Way to early to determine a trend. I doubt any coin will be discounted because of no + sign. I would think most folks can tell if a coin is nice
regardless of what the plastic says. >>
If this were the case, and you really believe this, why do you think the service is being used?
When all the dust settles, it may be the case that the estimated 85% to 90% of the coins, the non-plus coins do fall in value, a tiny bit, as the top coins go up a bit. However, to determine that so soon after the system is put in place, with so little pricing history, sounds like a premature conclusion. If I had to guess, I think there is another agenda with the letter writer other than telling the entire story. It's way too early to reach any conclusions. Just like that other thread where one or two plus coins selling for huge premiums (100%+) over non-plus coins is not indicative of the overall effect of the new grading.
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<< <i>
<< <i>Way to early to determine a trend. I doubt any coin will be discounted because of no + sign. I would think most folks can tell if a coin is nice
regardless of what the plastic says. >>
If this were the case, and you really believe this, why do you think the service being used? >>
I am using the service on all my high end coins for 2 reasons
a) those that are truely outstanding should be desiginated as such. I paid a premium for these coins, and the + will hopefully help my investment.
b) the registry game (I enjoy the competition).
I have had 12 graded so far with 4 pluses, are the other 8 dogs? No. I went through literally 250-300 coins and sent my best + candidates. in my eyes the 8 that missed are still premium coins. >>
I am not sure how I can mesh these 2 statements:
"I doubt any coin will be discounted because of no + sign. I would think most folks can tell if a coin is nice"
and
"I paid a premium for these coins, and the + will hopefully help my investment."
I guess you are saying that the Plus will help, but the lack of the plus won't hurt?
Premium coins for the grade have always sold for a premium haven't they?
Now those "other 8" that are still premium for the grade may not be looked at by future potential buyers as being that premium because soo many people just rely on the plastic labels.
Your thoughts?
For top registry members a non plus side effect will be...
<< <i>Regarding plus coins..."the grading services have an obligation to their shareholders, which is to sell as much plastic and other services to their customer's as possible." It's all about the money. >>
What's their obligation to the hobby and coin collectors?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
9
Nine. How the heck can nine coins graded + tilt the market for the other 16,182 coins in this series?
<< <i>One of the advantages of high end coins in the older holders is that they haven't been tried for the + yet so maybe they should carry a small premium over the current holders which may have already been tried for the +. >>
IMHO the Secure Plus coins that did not receive a plus would chance the greatest fall in value. These have been re-evaluated for being solid for the grade, but not PQ enough to be assigned a plus. If the desire for plus-ness becomes a major epidemic in the marketplace, no one will want coins that are just average for the grade.
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<< <i>One of the advantages of high end coins in the older holders is that they haven't been tried for the + yet so maybe they should carry a small premium over the current holders which may have already been tried for the +. >>
IMHO the Secure Plus coins that did not receive a plus would chance the greatest fall in value. These have been re-evaluated for being solid for the grade, but not PQ enough to be assigned a plus. If the desire for plus-ness becomes a major epidemic in the marketplace, no one will want coins that are just average for the grade. >>
This has been my thinking too. But there's a flip side.
If the coin has gone through SecurePlus it is likely that someone felt it was PQ enough to make the cut (otherwise there is only small benefit to the program). SecurePlus grading costs much more. Now okay, maybe some have been sent in by nitwits who know no better. But I'd bet most of the coins are nice for the grade whether they got plus'd or not.
Question: over time will there be more dogs in older holders than non-plus'd SecurePlus holders, percentage-wise?
Lance.
<< <i>If the desire for plus-ness becomes a major epidemic in the marketplace, no one will want coins that are just average for the grade. >>
I don't mind owning "average for the grade" coins if they are priced appropriately and they are nice, correctly graded coins. I'd rather own a nice MS65 Saint than an MS64+ Saint especially if the 64+ is priced close to the 65.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>If the desire for plus-ness becomes a major epidemic in the marketplace, no one will want coins that are just average for the grade. >>
I don't mind owning "average for the grade" coins if they are priced appropriately and they are nice, correctly graded coins. I'd rather own a nice MS65 Saint than an MS64+ Saint especially if the 64+ is priced close to the 65. >>
Really? From what I have seen, the MS-64+ Saints are priced closer to the 64s, making them a better deal than the 65s.
Wondercoin
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Are slabbed coins without a "+" or "green bean" now the equivalent of hinged stamps? If they are, the future for such coins is not bright.
but depending on the grade it will always influence the price of a coin. I just don't think there are enough plus coins out there right now to influence the price of most coins that are not in a secure plus case. I just do not see many plus coins so I don't see where something you can't buy can influence the price of something you can buy.
I am also one believing that coins in the SecurePlus holder, but lacking the Plus, will be selling for less money than if they were in the normal holder.
<< <i>I read a letter to the editor in the Numismatic News where they pointed out that non-plus graded coins in PCGS holders, fell in value. If that's correct, then his frustration and irritation is completely understood. All (or nearly all) of my coins were bought before CAC stickers and (of course) the Plus system. Does this mean that anytime I go to sell any one of my slabbed coins that someone will go...hey this doesn't have a Plus on it (or the lovely looking green bean)...guess I'll have to offer you less. Well, that just sucks and it's unfair.
Yes, yes...I can already hear some of you grumble, "Well I never buy the plastic, I buy the coin". Unfortunately, a lot of dealers out there focus on the plastic and the label and finding the ones that don't might become a tougher gambit.
There will be those that are happy to play the slab-o-matic game and resend in all their coins for their shot at "upgrades". All I'm saying is that I'm quite disappointed if this ends up being the true result of the Plus system. >>
Of course that's what it means! Look back at when we had only the grades on the slabs, how many collectors looked upon raw coins as inferior for that (i.e., if it isn't in a slab, there must be a reason, right...that's how the bromide went?). So, now, it's in a slab, it has a grade, and it has a CAC sticker on the slab, as well. What does that say? It says, in effect, "This is the grade, we mean it!" Add to that grade and CAC sticker, the plus sign, what does that say? It says, in effect, "This is the grade, we mean it, we mean it!" Add to that grade, CAC sticker and plus sign, the SecurePlus sign, what does that say? It says, in effect, "This is the grade, we mean it, we mean it, we mean it!" Every incremental step makes the step just before that inferior for it. There's going to be another one...in effect, "This is the grade, we mean it, we mean it, we mean it, we mean it!" It's only a question of time, and what they're going to choose to call it.
<< <i>I am also one believing that coins in the SecurePlus holder, but lacking the Plus, will be selling for less money than if they were in the normal holder. >>
Especially if the collector mentality changes towards wanting only pluses
So for now I'm fine just sitting on the sideline watching the game.
Oh yeah...da big one. uh huh
<< <i>In today's world, if you're standing still, you're moving backward. --Jerry >>
"Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast ...Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland
<< <i>Every incremental step makes the step just before that inferior for it. There's going to be another one...in effect, "This is the grade, we mean it, we mean it, we mean it, we mean it!" >>
That's how I see it also.
John
Will unscrupulous dealers use this angle to beat down the price for non-savvy sellers?
Fair or not the PQ element or possible upgrade has been taken out of the equation with a coin coming back non plussed. At least before sending in the coin for a plus the coin had the illusion in the mind of the owner of being "PQ" or a .9 coin. Or at least the owner could market it that way.
Deep down collectors or dealers are the only ones that want to know that their coins are maxed out.
A new Secure non plus coin may be unfairly treated like the Scarlett Letter
This could be a real "plus" for CAC as owners of Secure non plus coins scramble to verify that their coins are at least solid for the grade.
It will be interesting to see how NGC handles their program.
I continue to sit on the sidelines on the Plus program. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
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<< <i>
<< <i>If the desire for plus-ness becomes a major epidemic in the marketplace, no one will want coins that are just average for the grade. >>
I don't mind owning "average for the grade" coins if they are priced appropriately and they are nice, correctly graded coins. I'd rather own a nice MS65 Saint than an MS64+ Saint especially if the 64+ is priced close to the 65. >>
Really? From what I have seen, the MS-64+ Saints are priced closer to the 64s, making them a better deal than the 65s. >>
This may be true now but I responding to the premise that the + coins will become "a major epidemic in the marketplace" which I take to mean that they will carry a high premium.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
We're back from our African Safari and have our photos and videos selected and put on worldisround.com. Hooray!
Now, about the PLUS symbol in the PCGS prices. Not having seen or contributed to CU for several months, I was a little surprised to see
these additions to their (PCGS) site.
I figured out what they meant and said to myself: "Here we go again."
Where will it end? Will they have enough room on the plastic to put everything if and when they're satisfied with the thouroughness of the
number of graders each one represents?
To state that "this will not make a difference in the value of the coins so graded is rediculous!
Yes, I agree that high dollar coins are going to be regraded by the thousands.
Why else would the plus signs be used/added to the description of a coin.
I'm simply glad to have my collections complete in the condition with no thoughts of selling any of them.
This includes all the 20th century varieties of significant importance.
I don't know whether I'll attempt to sell those left over from upgrading. Probably. We'll see.
Glad to be back.
JET
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Way to early to determine a trend. I doubt any coin will be discounted because of no + sign. I would think most folks can tell if a coin is nice
regardless of what the plastic says. >>
If this were the case, and you really believe this, why do you think the service being used? >>
I am using the service on all my high end coins for 2 reasons
a) those that are truely outstanding should be desiginated as such. I paid a premium for these coins, and the + will hopefully help my investment.
b) the registry game (I enjoy the competition).
I have had 12 graded so far with 4 pluses, are the other 8 dogs? No. I went through literally 250-300 coins and sent my best + candidates. in my eyes the 8 that missed are still premium coins. >>
I am not sure how I can mesh these 2 statements:
"I doubt any coin will be discounted because of no + sign. I would think most folks can tell if a coin is nice"
and
"I paid a premium for these coins, and the + will hopefully help my investment."
I guess you are saying that the Plus will help, but the lack of the plus won't hurt?
Premium coins for the grade have always sold for a premium haven't they?
Now those "other 8" that are still premium for the grade may not be looked at by future potential buyers as being that premium because soo many people just rely on the plastic labels.
Your thoughts? >>
MANOFCOINS ???
<< <i>I read a letter to the editor in the Numismatic News where they pointed out that non-plus graded coins in PCGS holders, fell in value. If that's correct, then his frustration and irritation is completely understood. All (or nearly all) of my coins were bought before CAC stickers and (of course) the Plus system. Does this mean that anytime I go to sell any one of my slabbed coins that someone will go...hey this doesn't have a Plus on it (or the lovely looking green bean)...guess I'll have to offer you less. Well, that just sucks and it's unfair.
>>
It sucks but I wouldn't call it unfair. Markets are always changing, and if someone opts not to stay current with recent developments, that's not the market's fault.
9 have been + Coins
Those NINE should not cause the value of the other 16,183 to change at all.
If that is whats happening...........then something is stinking of rotten fish.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
The way it is now it seems like the coins that dont get the plus are bad. I dont think that will be the problem when that is the only slab offered.
Gary
who may or may not agree with that opinion
I have an opinion that eBay facilitates fraud and by allowing flagrant counterfeit coins from China to be listed and sold. it lowers the selling price of ALL coins on eBay.
Apparently eBay must feel that their total gross cut is more important than long term business and maintaining the integrity of the hobbies they are cannibalizing - what do they say about corporations? next quarters profits are more important than long term stability?- I wonder if that is why Meg got out a billionaire?
<< <i>One of the advantages of high end coins in the older holders is that they haven't been tried for the + yet so maybe they should carry a small premium over the current holders which may have already been tried for the +. >>
Totally agree! Very nice coins without the new holder should be held at a premium....kind of like OGHs and Rattlers.....OH NO!!!! A new collector's type!
Big Crumbs Link
Mr Rebates Link
EBates Link
Chucknra@yahoo.com
<< <i>
<< <i>I read a letter to the editor in the Numismatic News where they pointed out that non-plus graded coins in PCGS holders, fell in value. If that's correct, then his frustration and irritation is completely understood. All (or nearly all) of my coins were bought before CAC stickers and (of course) the Plus system. Does this mean that anytime I go to sell any one of my slabbed coins that someone will go...hey this doesn't have a Plus on it (or the lovely looking green bean)...guess I'll have to offer you less. Well, that just sucks and it's unfair.
>>
It sucks but I wouldn't call it unfair. Markets are always changing, and if someone opts not to stay current with recent developments, that's not the market's fault. >>
I just took a peek at your eBay store. You've got some pretty nice-looking coins, there. Are you telling me that because I happen to choose to stay current with the changing market, and happen also to notice that none of your coins seem to have taken advantage of any of those "recent developments," you're prepared for that reason to accept substantially less than your Buy It Now prices for those coins? Hell...I'll be right there with my offers!
PS: OK, I know you weren't saying that, exactly, but you can't blame a guy for trying...
What has been your experience with sending the old PCGS green rattlers in for re-grading? Also did your 60 make it to a plus?
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Yes I think a plus will help, but the lack of one will not hurt in the long term. Eventually, I suspect PCGS will make all submissions go secure plus
especially if if the people are afraid that a non plussed coin will go down in value. As it is all high end coins have to be graded by secure plus and
eventually all coins will be. Once there are 1-2 million of these non plus slabs out in the public people will resume buying the coin and not the holder. >>
I totally agree with this. When the new slabs become the norm (which I also think will happen) then the non-plussed coins will not "stand out" like they do now.
Then a plus will just represent a real PQ coin for the grade and a non-plus will just represent a coin at the labeled grade.