Whose in the wrong here and what should I do?
mkman123
Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
Hey all, help me out on who is in the wrong here.
Won't mention names but here is a little info:
I sold some bullion to a member on the boards. I usually take USPS money orders but this person said they would send a check.
I said fine, well lets roll forward now. On Tuesday I get the check. I take it to the bank and they say that since I'm in Hawaii and the bank is on the mainland there is a 8+ day hold.
I tell the buyer this to keep them updated so that they aren't left in the dark.
I get this as the message back:
ya no what u are the only person that did not send coins...iam a large dealer..and did 250k this week...boy send them fast this is crazy...
First off, I must be old school or something because I don't send stuff first without payment and if its a check I want to wait until it clears so that I'm not screwed. I might send something first if its to another member that I know of or have dealt with before but this buyer I have never dealt with before.
What should I do? Just tell the bank to cancel the check and not deal with this buyer??
Thank you!
Won't mention names but here is a little info:
I sold some bullion to a member on the boards. I usually take USPS money orders but this person said they would send a check.
I said fine, well lets roll forward now. On Tuesday I get the check. I take it to the bank and they say that since I'm in Hawaii and the bank is on the mainland there is a 8+ day hold.
I tell the buyer this to keep them updated so that they aren't left in the dark.
I get this as the message back:
ya no what u are the only person that did not send coins...iam a large dealer..and did 250k this week...boy send them fast this is crazy...
First off, I must be old school or something because I don't send stuff first without payment and if its a check I want to wait until it clears so that I'm not screwed. I might send something first if its to another member that I know of or have dealt with before but this buyer I have never dealt with before.
What should I do? Just tell the bank to cancel the check and not deal with this buyer??
Thank you!
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edit to note: i find his statement of declaring his "personal" dealer business rather non dealer like. but maybe i'm wrong. is this common with dealers who are doing transactions to brag about their finances in business? heh.
<< <i>boy send them fast this is crazy... >>
I sure hope your name is Roy, and they made a mistake.
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<< <i>You gave him two payment options, he chose the one that results in slower delivery. Now that you have deposted the check you both will have to wait it out. >>
Still, I vote for the seller on this one. I have sent checks for items bought on the BST before, some waited for the check to clear, some did not. I wasn't bothered either way.
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<< <i>derryb, the buyer could tell his bank not to honor the check and or cancel it correct? If that happens, won't I have a bounced check on my hands and then have to pay my bank???? I'm thinking of whats safe for me at the moment since the check has been deposited.... >>
It will cost hiim to cancel the check. What's safe for you is to not ship coins until check clears. Talk to your bank, I believe the current process for checks makes it known to the bank within a day or two if the check is good even though they won't credit your account right away. I also believe one bank can contact another and have the funds committed. If buyer gives you any moe grief you should definitely out him here so the rest of us know to avoid dealing with him.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
I smell a scam to have you send the coin and get stuck with a bad check. The only way to protect yourself is refuse to ship until the check clears.
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Someone wants to be rude and talk to me like that and I would tell them to pound sand quickly.
That said, I do question your bank as well. Hawaii is part of the US banking system. In today's modern age, it shouldn't matter that there is mainland vs islands.
I'd escalate at the bank and ask that question.
Btw....if your bolded portion is a direct quote, then that dealer has problems and I would wonder about them anyway. Even in email, that kind of talk and spelling is pretty sad.
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So i call this buyer and order 10k in coins, he is going to ship upon reciept of check? LOL
Nowadays i do not care who it is, they can wait. PCGS, DLRC, Heritage etc. Any person or company could file Bankruptcy tommorow.
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Being a "board member" means nothing so far as financial reliability is concerned.
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That's how I read it.
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OTOH, you may want to switch banks. Last I heard, Hawaii is still part of the US, and domestic checks clear within 24h these days.
If I had received that I would increase the wait for clearance to 3 weeks.....What's he gonna do??? Neg. ya???? Not like you are worried about feedback
and....
The "large dealer" might just refer to body size
Next time, put "Personal checks welcome, but must clear before goods shipped."
TD
<< <i>did he call you "boy"? >>
That's the part that got me. Also, ask your bank about recent changes in how the Fed clears checks. Should take a couple days. BTW, you have the right, within reason, to hold the check until YOU'RE satisfied the check is good. 8-10 days would seem within reason. If he wanted a bullion purchase shipped earlier, he should have paid with a MO. I'm not entirely clear that you actually gave the option to pay with a check. It sounded more like that was what he sent, and you were left to deal with his change in your terms. This dealer sure doesn't sound very professional to me.
Edited for typo.
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I can't believe Ken Steelheader called you "boy"!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>The fact that your bank is holding the check for eight days is moot. Even if they cleared the funds immediately, there is still a chance that it could bounce. I would wait 7-8 days regardless. >>
I would wait 10 business days just to make sure. The buyer can pound sand.
Now, he didn't communicate that very well did he?
PS I never answered your question. I would call him, maybe check a few references and come up with a solution that both of you can live with. The easy way is to just wait 8 days. The good service seller can try to figure a way to ship sooner.
--Jerry
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<< <i>
<< <i>The fact that your bank is holding the check for eight days is moot. Even if they cleared the funds immediately, there is still a chance that it could bounce. I would wait 7-8 days regardless. >>
I would wait 10 business days just to make sure. The buyer can pound sand. >>
I don't go to the post office for money orders. I generally don't go to the bank for a cashiers check because those can be forged to. I send my business checks and generally nobody holds them. (of course as a dealer, often I already have the merchandise before I send the check).
I don't know this dealer or how much the check is but it would not be unusual if he has a good reputation for you to go ahead and ship. I don't know the details so I'm not recommending that. But I'm saying that if you know him and he has a good reputation, why not ship?
Now his message didn't instill any confidence in us though did it.
--Jerry
<< <i>I would be especially wary with this buyer. His note to you doesn't sound at all like a legitimate dealer's note, and I doubt if a legitimate dealer would have a problem waiting for a check to clear.
I smell a scam to have you send the coin and get stuck with a bad check. The only way to protect yourself is refuse to ship until the check clears. >>
(and thanks to all on the BST who have sent coins before my check cleared, or in some cases was even received... I truly appreciate your trust in me!)
The specifics regarding whether or not the items would be shipped before the check cleared, should have been addressed ahead of time by each of you. But in the absence of such agreement, the buyer can wait. I've been in business for 30 years. But I don't get insulted if someone who doesn't know me, insists on a cleared check from me before he ships the coins.
Edited to add: Offer to have the buyer provide you with references. If you are comfortable with them, ship now, and if not, wait for the check to clear. But don't cancel the transaction.
An agreement to sell was made. A check was sent. It's not the buyers fault the check takes so long to clear. His attitude may not be right. His punctuation, spelling and grammar may be informal and incorrect. Your transaction with him is incomplete. He lived up to his end of the bargain, in spite of his own character flaws and approaches towards you. I know you to be a good trader.
but...
YOU are wrong because the customer is always right.
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<< <i> He lived up to his end of the bargain, in spite of his own character flaws... >>
Great quote in general. None of us are perfect but we all try to complete each transaction in accordance with our agreement. --Jerry
<< <i>Sorry but the buyer didn't live up to his end of the deal until the check clears. Simple solution- send the money order as requested by the seller in the first place. >>
If it's a $10K+ deal for bullion then in my opinion a money order isn't acceptable for various legal reasons. $10k transactions need to be traceable. Also, for a bullion deal that a dealer may be working for 2% on, I'm not going to drive to the bank and get the cash and then stand in line to buy a money order. Spending an hour paying for one deal just won't work. If the seller insists then I pass. If I say, "I don't do money orders but my check is good and I can provide references." and he agrees, then the MO is history. On most coins a week isn't a bid deal so I don't worry. They aren't that volatile. On bullion, that's a different story. --Jerry
<< <i>Who's right ?
An agreement to sell was made. A check was sent. It's not the buyers fault the check takes so long to clear. His attitude may not be right. His punctuation, spelling and grammar may be informal and incorrect. Your transaction with him is incomplete. He lived up to his end of the bargain, in spite of his own character flaws and approaches towards you. I know you to be a good trader.
but...
YOU are wrong because the customer is always right. >>
I agree with most of this. The customer should always be right but at this juncture the buyer has not lived up to his end of the bargain. I think the actual agreement was bullion for actual money. A check is just a promissory note that the buyers bank will deliver the actual money to the sellers bank. Until this happens the buyer has not concluded his/her side of the agreement and the seller has no obligation to send the goods. Unless the seller agreed to send bullion upon receipt of check, or agreed to sell bullion for an actual physical check (thus taken money out of the equation), or even agreed to send the bullion to the buyer first prior to funds, neither side has fulfilled their side of the agreement as no physical funds have been delivered to the seller and no bullion has been delivered to the buyer.
<< <i>Never take checks for bullion.
Why not? If the buyer is willing to wait if the seller wants it to clear.
to me MO are a pain. I buy for me and I'm not looking to turn it fast so I can wait. The one time time was a factor, I had my bank wire the money. ( Am I going to take $7000 down to the local PO for a MO? not.)
If I'm at a coin show, I rarely carry more than a couple hundred in cash, but might write checks for much more than that for silver. NEVER has a dealer asked me for a MO at a show!
<< <i>The problem is an 8 day delay after a price has been set for bullion is unacceptable. My guess is that if he had known that there would be a delay he would have said , "OK, we'll set the price then." I am a small dealer and I generally want to have the bullion in hand or very soon thereafter before setting a price. Gold went up yesterday and he probably wants to move it now. By the time it gets to him, who knows what gold will do. He also probably paid you a good price or you would have sold it to someone else. that means he is working on a very thin margin so a few $ move can mean no profit for him.
Now, he didn't communicate that very well did he?
PS I never answered your question. I would call him, maybe check a few references and come up with a solution that both of you can live with. The easy way is to just wait 8 days. The good service seller can try to figure a way to ship sooner.
--Jerry >>
I fault the buyer for being so stupid as to rely on a BST board for his BULLION needs.
BUT.... bullion is low margin and delivery is expected to be fast.
STILL... a "dealer" should know better than to go private for his commitments.
You think "waiting for check to clear" is dicey? How about "COC?"
That's "Check On Confirmation"
Both buyer and seller ship payment AND bullion SIMULTANEOUSLY.
Bad check? T.S.
That's the NATURE of bullion dealing and why the buyer is nuts to go to BST for his wants.
But SELLER needs to understand that BULLION deals are EXPECTED to be fast.
Two thumbs down.
Sorry.
<< <i>The problem is an 8 day delay after a price has been set for bullion is unacceptable. My guess is that if he had known that there would be a delay he would have said , "OK, we'll set the price then." I am a small dealer and I generally want to have the bullion in hand or very soon thereafter before setting a price. Gold went up yesterday and he probably wants to move it now. By the time it gets to him, who knows what gold will do. He also probably paid you a good price or you would have sold it to someone else. that means he is working on a very thin margin so a few $ move can mean no profit for him.
Now, he didn't communicate that very well did he?
PS I never answered your question. I would call him, maybe check a few references and come up with a solution that both of you can live with. The easy way is to just wait 8 days. The good service seller can try to figure a way to ship sooner.
--Jerry >>
He mailed the seller a check!
The buyer can wait AFAIC.
<< <i>
<< <i>The problem is an 8 day delay after a price has been set for bullion is unacceptable. My guess is that if he had known that there would be a delay he would have said , "OK, we'll set the price then." I am a small dealer and I generally want to have the bullion in hand or very soon thereafter before setting a price. Gold went up yesterday and he probably wants to move it now. By the time it gets to him, who knows what gold will do. He also probably paid you a good price or you would have sold it to someone else. that means he is working on a very thin margin so a few $ move can mean no profit for him.
Now, he didn't communicate that very well did he?
PS I never answered your question. I would call him, maybe check a few references and come up with a solution that both of you can live with. The easy way is to just wait 8 days. The good service seller can try to figure a way to ship sooner.
--Jerry >>
I fault the buyer for being so stupid as to rely on a BST board for his BULLION needs.
BUT.... bullion is low margin and delivery is expected to be fast.
STILL... a "dealer" should know better than to go private for his commitments.
You think "waiting for check to clear" is dicey? How about "COC?"
That's "Check On Confirmation"
Both buyer and seller ship payment AND bullion SIMULTANEOUSLY.
Bad check? T.S.
That's the NATURE of bullion dealing and why the buyer is nuts to go to BST for his wants.
But SELLER needs to understand that BULLION deals are EXPECTED to be fast.
Two thumbs down.
Sorry. >>
I don't think we have nearly enough information to conclude that the buyer was "so stupid as to rely on a BST board for his BULLION needs". Maybe it was a good deal and/or maybe he doesn't plan to resell it in the near future.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>The problem is an 8 day delay after a price has been set for bullion is unacceptable. My guess is that if he had known that there would be a delay he would have said , "OK, we'll set the price then." I am a small dealer and I generally want to have the bullion in hand or very soon thereafter before setting a price. Gold went up yesterday and he probably wants to move it now. By the time it gets to him, who knows what gold will do. He also probably paid you a good price or you would have sold it to someone else. that means he is working on a very thin margin so a few $ move can mean no profit for him.
Now, he didn't communicate that very well did he?
PS I never answered your question. I would call him, maybe check a few references and come up with a solution that both of you can live with. The easy way is to just wait 8 days. The good service seller can try to figure a way to ship sooner.
--Jerry >>
If somebody wants immediate possession of their bullion, they can go to a B&M and whip out some cash. We will even give immediate delivery to good, steady customers for a check.
If somebody wants to save money by buying from a stranger thousands of miles away, that is OK, but you have to give something up to do so. In this case, you give up the right to immediate possession.
TD