Also, while I understand an aversion to the risk of exposure to adverse interim price movements of the metal due to the delay, all else equal, it's a wash & a zero sum game - i.e. someone will be better off having waited and someone worse off. Although the law of large numbers says that you will net zero over the long run for such delays so why sweat it?
<< <i> He lived up to his end of the bargain, in spite of his own character flaws... >>
So what? Does that gives him the right to act like a jerk?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'm appalled at the impatience of the buyer. Yes, bullion coins are about the most time-sensitive coin of all. But a choice between USPS Money Order and Personal Check was offered. It's too bad about the immature, unprofessional communication, but don't let that scare you. Just let the check clear, send the goods, keep the communication channel open. And try to think of something else during the time the check is in flight.
There probably isn't an enforceable contract here. Based on the e-mail, I guess the buyer is under 18 years of age.
I am reminded of an old story from the Reader's Digest. As I recall this happened in the 30's or 40's, which would explain the pricing:
A man walks into his local general store in a small New England town. He says he has a fallen tree in his yard, and asks the owner how much a new axe would cost. The store owner says "Five Dollars."
The man says "Well, I looked in the Sears Catalogue before I came over here, and they are selling the same axe for $3.50. You are charging too much. Will you sell it to me for the same price as the Sears Catalogue?"
The store owner thinks for a minute, and says "Okay, but I'm going to charge you 45 cents for shipping, because that is what you would have to pay Sears."
The man agree that that is correct, and pays the store owner $3.95. He starts to pick up the axe, but the store owner stops him, picks up the axe and puts it on the back shelf. He then says: "You can have it in a week, just like the one from Sears!"
The townsfolk sitting around the pot-bellied stove dissolve in laughter.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Having done numerous bullion and gold coin transactions on the BST as a buyer only, I tend to better see the buyer's side in this case, even with the inappropriate language.
What many are missing here is what makes the seller more important than the buyer? Why is their integrity and character assumed to be "better" than the buyer's? Can't they be a sheister as well with no intention of sending the bullion once the check is received/cleared? It's happened on the BST often enough for various reasons. If I was a large dealer with combined impeccable trade and forum references I'd probably be unhappy if I had to wait 2 weeks for the bullion to arrive. Too bad the terms weren't discussed more thoroughly ahead of time especially when it concerned time sensitive bullion that could change in price 5-10% in a few weeks time. I'm sure the next time this particular dealer buys via the BST they will cover all bases.
When I don't know a seller I'm far more concerned that they won't ship the goods than my check not clearing. Once my check clears what guarantees do I have that the merchandise ships? It doesn't matter if it's bullions, coins, exonumia, etc. As far as I'm concerned there is no special status afforded to a seller who is being sent a personal/company check. Both buyer and seller need to work out details in full before. I'm not so sure I buy the 8 days Hawaii check clearance thing. They are part of the Federal Reserve System aren't they?
If somebody wants to save money by buying from a stranger thousands of miles away, that is OK, but you have to give something up to do so. In this case, you give up the right to immediate possession.
Doesn't the flip side of that apply as well? If a seller in an isolated location like Hawaii with relatively few choices for selling bullion locally wants to get a better market price by selling to a buyer thousands of miles away, they have to give up something too. If they want safe cash in hand, then they can do down to the local coin or pawn shop and take what they are offered.
I tend to agree with Roadrunner though admittedly, the terms should have been clarified in advance.
We have seen more stories of sellers not delivering than checks bouncing on BST transactions since I have been here. Fortunately, problems have been few and far between.
Hi all, the amount was for 890. Not a lot to some but a lot for me though.
I did pm a few members on this board because they had replied to this buyers "WTB ad" on the bst in the past and very few actually ended up selling to this person.
I will call this buyer right now and give him two options: wait for the check to clear as I feel more comfortable shipping until I know everything is clear or I can cancel the transaction.
Thanks all!
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UPDATE: Called the buyer and apologized that the transaction was taking so long and explained to him how I haven't shipped the bullion because I don't feel comfortable sending items without payment in hand. Gave him the two options and he said to just let it go through and he will wait. Will keep all updated if anything else transpires.
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Sound like the buyer did not clarify their terms of purchase. Is there anything we do not know about thsi transaction?
I have never heard of any decent size dealer (as claimed by the buyer) to troll a BST board for bullion. Further, if they are realy doing that much business, they would have a world of references as well as perfectly clear buying procedures. No one I know has ever had a major dealer send a check first for bullion. Usually, the dealer tells you to send the merchendise to them-then they will pay.
There is no fault here on the seller at all. The attiude they laid down was arrogant. Make them wait.
Don't know who is right or who is wrong, but his grammar and spelling make him sound like he's in junior high. I wouldn't be surprised if the check bounces.
To those members that question the, "hold on out of state check policy," - Hawaii may be one of the 50 states and part of the federal banking system but, I assure you, this is S.O.P. at many local banks here. It doesn't have to make sense... we're in Hawaii.
I can see both sides and I'm glad the extra effort to communicate has the issue resolved.
<< <i>UPDATE: Called the buyer and apologized that the transaction was taking so long and explained to him how I haven't shipped the bullion because I don't feel comfortable sending items without payment in hand. Gave him the two options and he said to just let it go through and he will wait. Will keep all updated if anything else transpires. >>
Hehe...yeah, he's seen some nice movement in metals since the transaction...I'd be more accommodating too (but I sure hope I wouldn't have sent the original PM unless I was drugged or half-asleep!).
I like the general comments of making sure all terms are discussed before transacting, but I gotta say, there are so many more factors at play: Seller's/buyer's presence (both on BST and Forum), the original offer, trust factors on both sides, etc. And frankly, almost my entire bullion stash has come from BST folks, and I have yet to have a problem. That, too, is a factor...
<< <i>UPDATE: Called the buyer and apologized that the transaction was taking so long and explained to him how I haven't shipped the bullion because I don't feel comfortable sending items without payment in hand. Gave him the two options and he said to just let it go through and he will wait. Will keep all updated if anything else transpires. >>
You are right and he is wrong. And I don't like his reply and would be suspicious.
In 2001 I got screwed after waiting 10 days for a check to clear on an $5G piece. Okay, it was a long time ago and banking practices and technology have improved.
I asked my bank how long I needed to wait and was told 7 business days. After 10 calendar days the check was still shown in my account so I shipped. A few days later I got the bounced notice. It seems my bank tried twice to clear it, hence the delay. Buyer was a scammer. Authorities were impotent. My bank refused to help.
I don't take personal checks from strangers anymore. Lance.
<< <i>UPDATE: Called the buyer and apologized that the transaction was taking so long and explained to him how I haven't shipped the bullion because I don't feel comfortable sending items without payment in hand. Gave him the two options and he said to just let it go through and he will wait. Will keep all updated if anything else transpires. >>
He's probably been reading the comments and now realizes what a jerk he appeared to be. His sudden patience helps to guarantee his anonymity.
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Dr Buster, I got the check on TUESDAY and DEPOSITED IT SAME DAY. I contacted the buyer to give them an update on whats going on and I get the pm from them you see in bold.
thanks.
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<< <i>So, you got the check on Tuesday, deposited it on Friday, 3 days later, then are confused about someone wonderring what's up with shipment?
Big dealio, you took your sweet time, checks take their sweet time, that's it. >>
The OP said he received the check Tuesday. And on Friday, he posted that he had deposited it "yesterday", which would have been Thursday. So, he didn't deposit it 3 days later. And he didn't indicate that he was "confused about someone wonderring what's up with shipment".
<< <i>Dr Buster, I got the check on TUESDAY and DEPOSITED IT SAME DAY. I contacted the buyer to give them an update on whats going on and I get the pm from them you see in bold.
thanks. >>
Now I'm confused, due to a previous post of yours:
<<Friday April 23, 2010 10:59 PM (NEW!) .....
Hi all thanks for your input. I deposited the check yesterday......is it too late to have the bank cancel it????>>
Ok went back to my pm's with this person to get clarification on the dates.
I deposited check on tuesday but emailed the buyer on friday morning with the update. I can see how the buyer would be peeved a bit as I did take several days to update him.
Sorry for the mix up
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Please tell me who it is. I do not care about flaming them. Heritage, Silvertowne, Dillion Gage (a few of the biggest buyers) NEVER would send a check first. I'd love to do a decent size deal with a reputable person/dealer and have them send a check for me to deposit before I send the goods. If they are claiming to do $250G a week, then they should have known how to do a bullion deal. They left themselves wide open to the violtility of the market.
Take all the time you want before shipping. It sounds like whoever yoru dealing with is not ready for prime time.
Having a check "clear" is no guarantee of anything. The bank could initially clear a bogus check and find out days/weeks/ months later it was no good (ie forged, stolen, screwed with, etc.). They will then come back to the depositor of that check and have them make good on the funds. The bullion would have long been shipped and/or received.
Banks may think they have local policies "in effect" but there are requirements they must meet per the Federal Banking System. Exceptions in unusual circumstances are allowed but this situation for such a small amount is probably not one of them. Being in Hawaii is not an exceptional circumstance other than being given one additional day of check clearance. The 1987 law to "expedite funds" was enacted because of the excessive and arbitrary times banks were routinely taking to let checks clear. I'm sure the free interest on those extended deposits was good as well.
My reading of the code is that 4 business days may intervene between deposit and withdrawal of funds on a non-local check (ie good funds on the 5th business day following deposit). Hawaii and other non-conus states/territories are granted an additional day (6th business day). 2 additional business days (8th b.d.) would have been allowed per the code prior to Sept. 1, 1990 as the old ways were phased out.
If the dealer sent a cashier's or bank/certified check it would be reduced to 1-2 days.
Having a check "clear" is no guarantee of anything. The bank could initially clear a bogus check and find out days/weeks/ months later it was no good (ie forged, stolen, screwed with, etc.). They will then come back to the depositor of that check and have them make good on the funds. The bullion would have long been shipped and/or received.
Perhaps the OP should wait 30 days? 60 days? 90 days? Hold the coin for the buyer in perpetuity?
From personal experience, if you really want to be cautious, the best thing to do is to never take the risk of selling a coin for a check, buying a coin by mail, sending a coin in the mail, etc. At some point, you have to say "WTF?" or no transaction will ever be completed.
<< <i>Without having read the other replies yet...
The specifics regarding whether or not the items would be shipped before the check cleared, should have been addressed ahead of time by each of you. But in the absence of such agreement, the buyer can wait. I've been in business for 30 years. But I don't get insulted if someone who doesn't know me, insists on a cleared check from me before he ships the coins.
Edited to add: Offer to have the buyer provide you with references. If you are comfortable with them, ship now, and if not, wait for the check to clear. But don't cancel the transaction. >>
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Anyone who purchases on the Web should not only respect and understand the physical requirements of the shipping process, also the risk that the seller is on the line for.
There are dishonest sellers and dishonest buyers. If this were not the case this would be a moot point.
I have sellers that will ship to me before I can pay them, but that because we have a solid long term relationship.
I would NEVER expect a seller new to me to grant me ANY favors because I haven't created a track record.
The fact is that times are hard and getting shafted is not only about the money, it's about the time and the bad feelings.
A big company will screw you over just as fast as a small company. It's not about size, it's about integrity. And this is where word of mouth is the best investment money "CAN'T" buy!
The Hawaii check thing works the same way for checks from Hawaiian banks. I often get checks from Hawaii from a couple of business partners. When I first tried to deposit them in CA I was told there would be a 15 day hold!!!! I told them that wasn't acceptable and it ended up only being a 9-10 day hold or something like that. Now that the bank seems to be comfortable with the checks of these Hawaii business partners they no longer place such a hold. On my last trip to Hawaii I tried to find a bank that had branches located in both Hawaii and in California and was unsuccessful in finding any.
Well, I can bet who the buyer (dealer) is now and that kind of explains the poorly written communication.
mkman, personally, I think you are doing this in a right way and, while I agree it is good to get all the details out early, in a case like this, you shouldn't allow yourself to be bullied by either the purchaser nor the people posting on her telling you a check is ok and the customer is always right. Saying stuff like this is always easier when it isn't their own money
Given how that person does the BST posts, I would have been most skeptical myself.
I would not deal with this person. He sends a check he knows he needs to wait for it to clear. I use a postal money order until I am known to the person if pay-pal cannot be used. Who cares if he is a big dealer. Sell your bullion to someone else who can pay in a more secure manner he is not worth your time or possibilty of issues.
<< <i>UPDATE: Called the buyer and apologized that the transaction was taking so long and explained to him how I haven't shipped the bullion because I don't feel comfortable sending items without payment in hand. Gave him the two options and he said to just let it go through and he will wait. Will keep all updated if anything else transpires. >>
Just remember that the next time you conduct a transaction the terms and conditions of the sale as you set them are clear and concise. The buyer obviously need to improve his communications skills.
I wouldn't mind knowing who this "big time buyer" is. I wouldn't surprise me if the subsequent apology was the direct result of this thread.
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<< <i>I really should refrain from posting on my birthday, after drinks and various buzzmacuticals. >>
This thread is single handingly going to mess up your 0.04 posts per day average.............and Happy Birthday! MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I didn't like his tone, no one should be calling someone "boy," and bragging about what he brings in didn't score points either. I'm not impressed, wouldn't have been with a couple more zero's, either. People earning $2 million a year can bounce checks as well as someone making $30k. He can wait the 8 days.
For the record, the credit union I use in PA holds checks for 4 business days if they're over $200, even if they're from just 50 miles away in Ohio. Across the state in Philly, it would cash the same day. Go figure - but it's every bank's right to make their own rules.
Hold tight to your beliefs and follow your gut.
Have bought and sold on BST, many references available when asked.
Just to be fair if I was the buyer I wouldn't be thrilled if the seller wanted to wait eight days for a check to clear before shipping but that's ultimately the seller's decision. If this buyer didn't like the sale terms then they could wait until the time they become a seller and in turn set their own conditions of sale.
My beef with the buyer's response is his partially incoherent statement in his response and his subsequent choice of language to belittle the seller. Since this individual is a forum member I believe he should create his own thread to publicly apologize to mkman123 (and everybody else) for his choice of language.
And regarding the issue with checks drawn on Hawaiian banks, I've never experienced any problems with them being processed any differently than any other out of state check.
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<< <i>Just to be fair if I was the buyer I wouldn't be thrilled if the seller wanted to wait eight days for a check to clear before shipping but that's ultimately the seller's decision. If this buyer didn't like the sale terms then they could wait until the time they become a seller and in turn set their own conditions of sale.
My beef with the buyer's response is his partially incoherent statement in his response and his subsequent choice of language to belittle the seller. Since this individual is a forum member I believe he should create his own thread to publicly apologize to mkman123 (and everybody else) for his choice of language. >>
I don't think I have ever seen this buyer post anywhere but the BST. He may, but not that I recall. So, I doubt he will bother to create a thread to apologize.
BTW, checks clear very quickly now. I deposited a check on Thurs and on Friday night the buyer e-mailed me a copy of the deposited check complete with my signature on the reverse, proving it had already cleared. I shipped today (saturday). --Jerry
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
One point that others have brought up already that should be emphasized is the difference between your bank making the funds available to you, and the check clearing (which is the issuing bank electronically paying the obligation represented by the check to your bank). Your bank might, as a courtesy to you as a customer, make funds available to you immediately - or in a week - or two weeks, but no matter how much time has passed, your bank can take any advanced funds back from you if the issuing bank doesn't pay up. One tip that hasn't been mentioned so far is that once you see the money in your account, and once you have confirmed with your bank that the check actually cleared (not just that the funds are available to you), then to be extra careful, you can also contact the issuing bank to confirm that they've paid your bank on the instrument. If you're ever in a hurry, and want reliable info, the issuing bank can often be more help than your own bank. Your bank might make money by having a hold period that's longer than the period of time it actually takes for the issuing bank to tender payment. In other words, if you call your bank to ask if the check has cleared, they might not tell you that the issuing bank already paid up yesterday. Instead, to use your money for free for a few days, they might tell you that the check is subject to, say, a 7-business-day hold period as described in your account agreement. On the other hand, the issuing bank has no reason to hide the fact that they already paid the obligation.
Comments
<< <i>ya no what u are the only person that did not send coins...iam a large dealer..and did 250k this week...boy send them fast this is crazy... >>
mkman, somebody is feeding you a line of crap. Cancel everything with the bank and with this person.
<< <i>
<< <i>ya no what u are the only person that did not send coins...iam a large dealer..and did 250k this week...boy send them fast this is crazy... >>
mkman, somebody is feeding you a line of crap. Cancel everything with the bank and with this person. >>
And you know that how? Either way, at this point, the OP has no legitimate legal reason to cancel the transaction.
Also, while I understand an aversion to the risk of exposure to adverse interim price movements of the metal due to the delay, all else equal, it's a wash & a zero sum game - i.e. someone will be better off having waited and someone worse off.
Although the law of large numbers says that you will net zero over the long run for such delays so why sweat it?
<< <i> He lived up to his end of the bargain, in spite of his own character flaws... >>
So what? Does that gives him the right to act like a jerk?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
But a choice between USPS Money Order and Personal Check was offered.
It's too bad about the immature, unprofessional communication, but don't let that scare you. Just let the check clear, send the goods, keep the communication channel open. And try to think of something else during the time the check is in flight.
There probably isn't an enforceable contract here. Based on the e-mail, I guess the buyer is under 18 years of age.
<< <i>There probably isn't an enforceable contract here. Based on the e-mail, I guess the buyer is under 18 years of age. >>
Those are exactly my thoughts adamlaneus.
A man walks into his local general store in a small New England town. He says he has a fallen tree in his yard, and asks the owner how much a new axe would cost. The store owner says "Five Dollars."
The man says "Well, I looked in the Sears Catalogue before I came over here, and they are selling the same axe for $3.50. You are charging too much. Will you sell it to me for the same price as the Sears Catalogue?"
The store owner thinks for a minute, and says "Okay, but I'm going to charge you 45 cents for shipping, because that is what you would have to pay Sears."
The man agree that that is correct, and pays the store owner $3.95. He starts to pick up the axe, but the store owner stops him, picks up the axe and puts it on the back shelf. He then says: "You can have it in a week, just like the one from Sears!"
The townsfolk sitting around the pot-bellied stove dissolve in laughter.
What many are missing here is what makes the seller more important than the buyer? Why is their integrity and character assumed to be "better" than the buyer's? Can't they be a sheister as well with no intention of sending the bullion once the check is received/cleared? It's happened on the BST often enough for various reasons. If I was a large dealer with combined impeccable trade and forum references I'd probably be unhappy if I had to wait 2 weeks for the bullion to arrive. Too bad the terms weren't discussed more thoroughly ahead of time especially when it concerned time sensitive bullion that could change in price 5-10% in a few weeks time. I'm sure the next time this particular dealer buys via the BST they will cover all bases.
When I don't know a seller I'm far more concerned that they won't ship the goods than my check not clearing. Once my check clears what guarantees do I have that the merchandise ships? It doesn't matter if it's bullions, coins, exonumia, etc. As far as I'm concerned there is no special status afforded to a seller who is being sent a personal/company check. Both buyer and seller need to work out details in full before. I'm not so sure I buy the 8 days Hawaii check clearance thing. They are part of the Federal Reserve System aren't they?
If somebody wants to save money by buying from a stranger thousands of miles away, that is OK, but you have to give something up to do so. In this case, you give up the right to immediate possession.
Doesn't the flip side of that apply as well? If a seller in an isolated location like Hawaii with relatively few choices for selling bullion locally wants to get a better market price by selling to a buyer thousands of miles away, they have to give up something too. If they want safe cash in hand, then they can do down to the local coin or pawn shop and take what they are offered.
roadrunner
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
We have seen more stories of sellers not delivering than checks bouncing on BST transactions since I have been here. Fortunately, problems have been few and far between.
I did pm a few members on this board because they had replied to this buyers "WTB ad" on the bst in the past and very few actually ended up selling to this person.
I will call this buyer right now and give him two options: wait for the check to clear as I feel more comfortable shipping until I know everything is clear or I can cancel the transaction.
Thanks all!
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LOL
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I have never heard of any decent size dealer (as claimed by the buyer) to troll a BST board for bullion. Further, if they are realy doing that much business, they would have a world of references as well as perfectly clear buying procedures. No one I know has ever had a major dealer send a check first for bullion. Usually, the dealer tells you to send the merchendise to them-then they will pay.
There is no fault here on the seller at all. The attiude they laid down was arrogant. Make them wait.
I wouldn't be surprised if the check bounces.
It doesn't have to make sense... we're in Hawaii.
I can see both sides and I'm glad the extra effort to communicate has the issue resolved.
<< <i>UPDATE: Called the buyer and apologized that the transaction was taking so long and explained to him how I haven't shipped the bullion because I don't feel comfortable sending items without payment in hand. Gave him the two options and he said to just let it go through and he will wait. Will keep all updated if anything else transpires. >>
Hehe...yeah, he's seen some nice movement in metals since the transaction...I'd be more accommodating too (but I sure hope I wouldn't have sent the original PM unless I was drugged or half-asleep!).
I like the general comments of making sure all terms are discussed before transacting, but I gotta say, there are so many more factors at play: Seller's/buyer's presence (both on BST and Forum), the original offer, trust factors on both sides, etc. And frankly, almost my entire bullion stash has come from BST folks, and I have yet to have a problem. That, too, is a factor...
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<< <i>UPDATE: Called the buyer and apologized that the transaction was taking so long and explained to him how I haven't shipped the bullion because I don't feel comfortable sending items without payment in hand. Gave him the two options and he said to just let it go through and he will wait. Will keep all updated if anything else transpires. >>
FLASH - gold jumps to $2k per oz today
In 2001 I got screwed after waiting 10 days for a check to clear on an $5G piece. Okay, it was a long time ago and banking practices and technology have improved.
I asked my bank how long I needed to wait and was told 7 business days. After 10 calendar days the check was still shown in my account so I shipped. A few days later I got the bounced notice. It seems my bank tried twice to clear it, hence the delay. Buyer was a scammer. Authorities were impotent. My bank refused to help.
I don't take personal checks from strangers anymore.
Lance.
<< <i>UPDATE: Called the buyer and apologized that the transaction was taking so long and explained to him how I haven't shipped the bullion because I don't feel comfortable sending items without payment in hand. Gave him the two options and he said to just let it go through and he will wait. Will keep all updated if anything else transpires. >>
He's probably been reading the comments and now realizes what a jerk he appeared to be. His sudden patience helps to guarantee his anonymity.
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Big dealio, you took your sweet time, checks take their sweet time, that's it.
thanks.
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<< <i>So, you got the check on Tuesday, deposited it on Friday, 3 days later, then are confused about someone wonderring what's up with shipment?
Big dealio, you took your sweet time, checks take their sweet time, that's it. >>
The OP said he received the check Tuesday. And on Friday, he posted that he had deposited it "yesterday", which would have been Thursday. So, he didn't deposit it 3 days later. And he didn't indicate that he was "confused about someone wonderring what's up with shipment".
<< <i>Dr Buster, I got the check on TUESDAY and DEPOSITED IT SAME DAY. I contacted the buyer to give them an update on whats going on and I get the pm from them you see in bold.
thanks. >>
Now I'm confused, due to a previous post of yours:
<<Friday April 23, 2010 10:59 PM (NEW!) .....
Hi all thanks for your input. I deposited the check yesterday......is it too late to have the bank cancel it????>>
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I deposited check on tuesday but emailed the buyer on friday morning with the update. I can see how the buyer would be peeved a bit as I did take several days to update him.
Sorry for the mix up
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Please tell me who it is. I do not care about flaming them. Heritage, Silvertowne, Dillion Gage (a few of the biggest buyers) NEVER would send a check first. I'd love to do a decent size deal with a reputable person/dealer and have them send a check for me to deposit before I send the goods. If they are claiming to do $250G a week, then they should have known how to do a bullion deal. They left themselves wide open to the violtility of the market.
Take all the time you want before shipping. It sounds like whoever yoru dealing with is not ready for prime time.
Banks may think they have local policies "in effect" but there are requirements they must meet per the Federal Banking System. Exceptions in unusual circumstances are allowed but this situation for such a small amount is probably not one of them. Being in Hawaii is not an exceptional circumstance other than being given one additional day of check clearance. The 1987 law to "expedite funds" was enacted because of the excessive and arbitrary times banks were routinely taking to let checks clear. I'm sure the free interest on those extended deposits was good as well.
My reading of the code is that 4 business days may intervene between deposit and withdrawal of funds on a non-local check (ie good funds on the 5th business day following deposit). Hawaii and other non-conus states/territories are granted an additional day (6th business day). 2 additional business days (8th b.d.) would have been allowed per the code prior to Sept. 1, 1990 as the old ways were phased out.
If the dealer sent a cashier's or bank/certified check it would be reduced to 1-2 days.
US Code 12/41/4002
Friendlier reading version
roadrunner
If he wanted it more rapidly a money order, cashiers check, paypal, or wire-transfer would have been better payment options.
<< <i>
<< <i> He lived up to his end of the bargain, in spite of his own character flaws... >>
So what? Does that gives him the right to act like a jerk? >>
No, this doesn't give him the right. His free will does.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
If you insist on accepting a check, photocopy it, make sure you have a valid address and name.
Call the bank, and ask if the person has the funds available.
All high risk.
Perhaps the OP should wait 30 days? 60 days? 90 days? Hold the coin for the buyer in perpetuity?
From personal experience, if you really want to be cautious, the best thing to do is to never take the risk of selling a coin for a check, buying a coin by mail, sending a coin in the mail, etc. At some point, you have to say "WTF?" or no transaction will ever be completed.
<< <i>Without having read the other replies yet...
The specifics regarding whether or not the items would be shipped before the check cleared, should have been addressed ahead of time by each of you. But in the absence of such agreement, the buyer can wait. I've been in business for 30 years. But I don't get insulted if someone who doesn't know me, insists on a cleared check from me before he ships the coins.
Edited to add: Offer to have the buyer provide you with references. If you are comfortable with them, ship now, and if not, wait for the check to clear. But don't cancel the transaction. >>
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
There are dishonest sellers and dishonest buyers. If this were not the case this would be a moot point.
I have sellers that will ship to me before I can pay them, but that because we have a solid long term relationship.
I would NEVER expect a seller new to me to grant me ANY favors because I haven't created a track record.
The fact is that times are hard and getting shafted is not only about the money, it's about the time and the bad feelings.
A big company will screw you over just as fast as a small company. It's not about size, it's about integrity. And this is where word of mouth is the best investment money "CAN'T" buy!
Cheers!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
mkman, personally, I think you are doing this in a right way and, while I agree it is good to get all the details out early, in a case like this, you shouldn't allow yourself to be bullied by either the purchaser nor the people posting on her telling you a check is ok and the customer is always right. Saying stuff like this is always easier when it isn't their own money
Given how that person does the BST posts, I would have been most skeptical myself.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>UPDATE: Called the buyer and apologized that the transaction was taking so long and explained to him how I haven't shipped the bullion because I don't feel comfortable sending items without payment in hand. Gave him the two options and he said to just let it go through and he will wait. Will keep all updated if anything else transpires. >>
Just remember that the next time you conduct a transaction the terms and conditions of the sale as you set them are clear and concise. The buyer obviously need to improve his communications skills.
I wouldn't mind knowing who this "big time buyer" is. I wouldn't surprise me if the subsequent apology was the direct result of this thread.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>I really should refrain from posting on my birthday, after drinks and various buzzmacuticals. >>
This thread is single handingly going to mess up your 0.04 posts per day average.............and Happy Birthday! MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
For the record, the credit union I use in PA holds checks for 4 business days if they're over $200, even if they're from just 50 miles away in Ohio. Across the state in Philly, it would cash the same day. Go figure - but it's every bank's right to make their own rules.
Hold tight to your beliefs and follow your gut.
My beef with the buyer's response is his partially incoherent statement in his response and his subsequent choice of language to belittle the seller. Since this individual is a forum member I believe he should create his own thread to publicly apologize to mkman123 (and everybody else) for his choice of language.
And regarding the issue with checks drawn on Hawaiian banks, I've never experienced any problems with them being processed any differently than any other out of state check.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>Just to be fair if I was the buyer I wouldn't be thrilled if the seller wanted to wait eight days for a check to clear before shipping but that's ultimately the seller's decision. If this buyer didn't like the sale terms then they could wait until the time they become a seller and in turn set their own conditions of sale.
My beef with the buyer's response is his partially incoherent statement in his response and his subsequent choice of language to belittle the seller. Since this individual is a forum member I believe he should create his own thread to publicly apologize to mkman123 (and everybody else) for his choice of language. >>
I don't think I have ever seen this buyer post anywhere but the BST. He may, but not that I recall.
So, I doubt he will bother to create a thread to apologize.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>I really should refrain from posting on my birthday, after drinks and various buzzmacuticals. >>
This thread is single handingly going to mess up your 0.04 posts per day average.............and Happy Birthday! MJ >>
Ha, thanks!. The .05 possibility is boundless.