Kind thanks to you also JR. I do think that there are people right here who know the answers, but my questions usually get covered up and lost in the picture posting frenzy. I had thought of posting new threads on specific questions, but have chosen not to as I do have very definite thoughts on several topics, and one of my main weaknesses is my susceptibility to argument.
<< <i>Yeah JR, 116 is my guess. Although not mentioned anywhere that I can find, the 'E' in statEs appears to have been reworked as well.
Could you please answer me a question concerning the 1812 109a ? Some folks feel that there is a late state of this die in which all of the 'marks' around the eagle's right wing (or left wing, as I am still very confused about left and right when referring to coins) have been eliminated.
What distinguishes this 'late state' from a 109 ? >>
Hey Lewy, Here is a copy from a thread I posted about 3 years ago comparing my 1809 O-109a to my 09 O-109b Fun read I really like this coin, even though I can't get a good pic of it. It is a real nice gray with green poking thru the periphery. This is the 1809 O-109b R4. Let me first show a couple of examples of the "a" die state. There is the obvious crack thru AMERICA and what looks like raised segments between the letters that continue down past the last A and along the points of the arrowheads. Here is the "b" die state. What separates the "b" die state from the "a" die state is on the reverse the die break thru AMERICA gets heavier and shows broken patches at the arrowheads, this crack extends along the base of 50C and then across the tips of the leaves to the edge below the wing tip. The crack extends along the legend to above the F in OF.
<< <i>1813 107a. I have seen a couple other coins of this variety that exhibit the same abnormality. The eagle's head is missing, but why?
I have seen many other 107a (even in very worn states) in which the head is normal. Surrounding devices are present. >>
There are several reasons for the weakness seen on these classics. As you know, a thin planchet, poor flow design and a deep design all add to the weakness commonly seen. We all know the usual areas - the center and bustline on the obverse, and the left wing and STATES-E PLURIBIS on the reverse. Well take a look at your coin Lewy and let me know if there is any rotation on the coin. I say this because there are many rotated dies in the series and the rotation will change the area opposite the heavy metal flow on the opposite side - say the bust - and this may put the birds head instead of the left wing in the "weak zone" Here is an overlay of the CBH and imagine what a slight, or major rotation could do to the flow. It is this slight rotation that leads to the many double and triple (and more) clashes we all love on these coins
And just because I love this coin Here is a pic of a nice full well struck head as seen on my 1824/2/0 overdate
I posted this sequence on another great site for CBHs - thought I'd share it here, too.
Here's a chance to study the clash progression on the 1812 O.107. Perhaps it's most easily perceived in the letters clashing first within the shield and then in the right field. Also, one can count the smaller jagged clash (from the hair at the back of the bust) that first appears under the UNUM and then travels over to the right for the second, and then comes back to the left and up (between the first two) for the third clash.
Pretty interesting, I think, and something right up Lewy's alley. zap
single clash
double clash
triple clash (this reverse is rotated as seriously as the two above - it "straightened itself out" for this photo)
Yes, 'fantastic' would be putting it mildly. Each coin on it's own merit would be highly interesting, but to show three coins of distinct stages is quite the mind-bender. Perception is a good word to use here Zap, as I don't see it as a case of simply rotation in one direction, and then in the other, and then back again.
I see it as primarily an alignment problem and then rotation. Granted, the clash in the shield happened at the same time as the first hair ribbon clash, but the die was quite misaligned at that event as evidenced by the location of the shield clash and the exaggerated arc in relationship of the ribbon / hair clash to the second and third ribbon / hair clashes. Simple hind-sight rotation would not line any of the clashes up).
I imagine also that you all already knew this, (but it is new and wondrous to me).
Below is a case of simple rotation on the subsequent clash (without misalignment).
Thanks much for the explanation of rotation's affect on metal displacement JR. It does make theoretical sense to me, and if you say that it has been looked at enough to be so, then I shall accept it as such. The only rotation on that particular headless eagle was less than ten degrees, putting the eagle's head on Liberty's chest below her neck, but not into the field. (Is this the 'weak spot')?
The point that I was getting at with all of the headless eagle thing was that the effect seems to be more prone to affect certain varieties than others. 1812 107 is an example.
JR, concerning your 1809 109a and 109b, I do see what 'appears to be milling segments between the letters, but with the extreme amount of die wear present, it is quite difficult for me to ascertain just what is what. Here is a scan of my 109b, and although the marks are probably there, I sure cannot pick them out because of all of the the discoloration going on. What I do find interesting on your 109a is that there appears to be a scratch or crack between the upper arrowheads that is not present on the 109b.
All of the preliminary questions that I've have concerning missing bird heads, segments in the fields, and clashing lead up to an event that (in my consideration) 'may' have taken place in the early mint in the 1813-1815 era. I could be totally wrong though, as I have not seen many coins of subsequent years. The amount, type, and severity of unintentional features on earlier varieties seems to deviate from those found on later dates. Once again, I could be sorely mistaken, but this thought is what generates my questions.
So do I. That triple clash 1812 O.107 has an unassuming obverse - it was one of the earliest CBHs I bought. I remember being excited about finding an 1812 in decent shape in a coin store in Duluth, MN and then turning it over and seeing that things weren't quite right. Investigating what a die clash was, die rotation, etc. were in response to that purchase drew me into this series.
Lewy - interesting take on the situation. Thanks for your thoughts.
Here's an 1917 O.105a Ex Russ Logan to keep things moving along.
<< <i>All of the preliminary questions that I've have concerning missing bird heads, segments in the fields, and clashing lead up to an event that (in my consideration) 'may' have taken place in the early mint in the 1813-1815 era. I could be totally wrong though, as I have not seen many coins of subsequent years. The amount, type, and severity of unintentional features on earlier varieties seems to deviate from those found on later dates. Once again, I could be sorely mistaken, but this thought is what generates my questions. >>
Hey Lewy, In 1812 the obverse die was modified (Sub-Design Type 3) to have more metal flow to different areas, namely the hair curls and breast. This design ran until 1817 and may be the explanation to your questions. Deepening the breast and curls would greatly effect the flow to the reverse designs. As for the crack you mention on the 09 O-109a, I believe that it is present on the O-109b also, but I do not have the coin in hand to verify. Next time I grab her I will take a look.
Here is a 35 O-108 with a close-up of one of the main PUP's, the vertical rays by the rim and lower olive leaves.
JR, that 1835 sorta blows my thoughts about a change in the mint in the early / mid teens. I was actually thinking new presses, or new parts / modifications to the existing presses. I had not considered die modifications.
Interesting about the 'rays' that (from what I can see) the milling is more prevalent at the rays than other rim areas. I am sure that you do not, but I do (at this point) consider these marks to be of the same nomenclature as those found on the reverses of 1809 O-107a and 1812 O-109a; misaligned / tilted die clash.
Nice to see the thread still going. I had hoped to have some new purchases from last weekends show to post. Looked at at least 200+ bust halves and didn't find one worth buying. I think I have picked the local area clean. Guess I have to go photo some of my old ones
That 1807 is the bottom of 'my' barrel Bully. I just felt obligated to post 'something' . I've almost been tempted to post pictures of some flowing hair or draped bust in hopes that nobody will notice the difference, but I would probably get caught (with all of you eagle eyed sages here).
Beautiful 108 Lance. I have coveted that coin for a while now. The reverse 'doubling' really stands out on that one. I am told that I also have one of those on the way, but not nearly as nice I am sure.
I don't know about any book writing Lance......I have a little voice telling me that some of you CBH nuts may well end up despising me before this thread runs it's full course.
Jim, on that 1812 109 that you posted on this page, what are these marks that I have outlined (the heavy gouge or PMD looking one, and the small diagonally parallel lines on the olive leaves?
<< <i>Here's a '22, a lot like Dr. Dave's '20. Lance.
>>
Yes, Lance, it may have the same "look".....but WOW, a lot higher in grade I imagine and a GREAT strike......BEAUTIFUL bustie, love it!!!
I have always been fond of 1822's. My very first CBH was a 1822 and my avatar as well happens to be a 1822, which was the first bustie I posted in this incredible thread on page 1, third post down, and STILL one of my favorite bust halves that I own.
Nice to see some fresh blood blueifalcon. Nice coin too!
Your 1831 is a tough one for me Bully. I will have to go with O-118 though.
Yes, I will post the 1820 O-108 just as soon as I get it. Might be a few days though as it has to go through other hands before I end up with it. I wanted it for the sole purpose of checking out the olive leave doubling, so I didn't require a high grade example, but as you all already know, condition and quality are not my hallmarks.
<< <i>Nice to see some fresh blood blueifalcon. Nice coin too!
Your 1831 is a tough one for me Bully. I will have to go with O-118 though.
Yes, I will post the 1820 O-108 just as soon as I get it. Might be a few days though as it has to go through other hands before I end up with it. I wanted it for the sole purpose of checking out the olive leave doubling, so I didn't require a high grade example, but as you all already know, condition and quality are not my hallmarks. >>
Agreed, nice to see the new blood.
Lewy, you nailed it again.....O-118 R-3!!!
beartracks42.....WOW!!!! great coins and Todd images!!!!
Comments
I had thought of posting new threads on specific questions, but have chosen not to as I do have very definite thoughts on several topics, and one of my main weaknesses is my susceptibility to argument.
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
<< <i>Yeah JR, 116 is my guess. Although not mentioned anywhere that I can find, the 'E' in statEs appears to have been reworked as well.
Could you please answer me a question concerning the 1812 109a ? Some folks feel that there is a late state of this die in which all of the 'marks' around the eagle's right wing (or left wing, as I am still very confused about left and right when referring to coins) have been eliminated.
What distinguishes this 'late state' from a 109 ? >>
Hey Lewy,
Here is a copy from a thread I posted about 3 years ago comparing my 1809 O-109a
to my 09 O-109b
Fun read
I really like this coin, even though I can't get a good pic of it. It is a real nice gray with green poking thru the periphery. This is the 1809 O-109b R4.
Let me first show a couple of examples of the "a" die state. There is the obvious crack thru AMERICA and what looks like raised segments between the letters that continue down past the last A and along the points of the arrowheads.
Here is the "b" die state. What separates the "b" die state from the "a" die state is on the reverse the die break thru AMERICA gets heavier and shows broken patches at the arrowheads, this crack extends along the base of 50C and then across the tips of the leaves to the edge below the wing tip. The crack extends along the legend to above the F in OF.
<< <i>Thanks richardshipp, scoobydeux, chd, JR, maibockaddict, fishteeth et al.....amazing coins!!!!
Here's another 'PS reflection' coin of my 1818 CBH.....keep up the great posts, guys!!!!
Super nice look on this piece, love the color and great details....Sure is purdy!!
<< <i>1813 107a. I have seen a couple other coins of this variety that exhibit the same abnormality. The eagle's head is missing, but why?
I have seen many other 107a (even in very worn states) in which the head is normal. Surrounding devices are present. >>
There are several reasons for the weakness seen on these classics.
As you know, a thin planchet, poor flow design and a deep design all add to the weakness commonly seen.
We all know the usual areas - the center and bustline on the obverse, and the left wing and STATES-E PLURIBIS on
the reverse. Well take a look at your coin Lewy and let me know if there is any rotation on the coin. I say this because
there are many rotated dies in the series and the rotation will change the area opposite the heavy metal flow on the
opposite side - say the bust - and this may put the birds head instead of the left wing in the "weak zone"
Here is an overlay of the CBH and imagine what a slight, or major rotation could do to the flow.
It is this slight rotation that leads to the many double and triple (and more) clashes we all love on these coins
And just because I love this coin
Here is a pic of a nice full well struck head as seen on my 1824/2/0 overdate
Here's a chance to study the clash progression on the 1812 O.107. Perhaps it's most easily perceived in the letters clashing first within the shield and then in the right field. Also, one can count the smaller jagged clash (from the hair at the back of the bust) that first appears under the UNUM and then travels over to the right for the second, and then comes back to the left and up (between the first two) for the third clash.
Pretty interesting, I think, and something right up Lewy's alley.
zap
single clash
double clash
triple clash (this reverse is rotated as seriously as the two above - it "straightened itself out" for this photo)
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
I see it as primarily an alignment problem and then rotation. Granted, the clash in the shield happened at the same time as the first hair ribbon clash, but the die was quite misaligned at that event as evidenced by the location of the shield clash and the exaggerated arc in relationship of the ribbon / hair clash to the second and third ribbon / hair clashes. Simple hind-sight rotation would not line any of the clashes up).
I imagine also that you all already knew this, (but it is new and wondrous to me).
Below is a case of simple rotation on the subsequent clash (without misalignment).
The point that I was getting at with all of the headless eagle thing was that the effect seems to be more prone to affect certain varieties than others. 1812 107 is an example.
All of the preliminary questions that I've have concerning missing bird heads, segments in the fields, and clashing lead up to an event that (in my consideration) 'may' have taken place in the early mint in the 1813-1815 era. I could be totally wrong though, as I have not seen many coins of subsequent years. The amount, type, and severity of unintentional features on earlier varieties seems to deviate from those found on later dates. Once again, I could be sorely mistaken, but this thought is what generates my questions.
Someone tried to do something special to this 1809 O-112........I am really happy about that.
Here is a 'gem BU' (Been Used) 1808 O-102:
This one is 1811 O112a :
Here is 1811 O-113 :
Thank's for the post. Love the triple.
So do I. That triple clash 1812 O.107 has an unassuming obverse - it was one of the earliest CBHs I bought. I remember being excited about finding an 1812 in decent shape in a coin store in Duluth, MN and then turning it over and seeing that things weren't quite right. Investigating what a die clash was, die rotation, etc. were in response to that purchase drew me into this series.
Lewy - interesting take on the situation. Thanks for your thoughts.
Here's an 1917 O.105a Ex Russ Logan to keep things moving along.
zap
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
<< <i>All of the preliminary questions that I've have concerning missing bird heads, segments in the fields, and clashing lead up to an event that (in my consideration) 'may' have taken place in the early mint in the 1813-1815 era. I could be totally wrong though, as I have not seen many coins of subsequent years. The amount, type, and severity of unintentional features on earlier varieties seems to deviate from those found on later dates. Once again, I could be sorely mistaken, but this thought is what generates my questions. >>
Hey Lewy,
In 1812 the obverse die was modified (Sub-Design Type 3) to have more metal flow to different areas, namely the hair curls and breast. This design ran until 1817 and may be the explanation to your questions. Deepening the breast and curls would greatly effect the flow to the reverse designs.
As for the crack you mention on the 09 O-109a, I believe that it is present on the O-109b also, but I do not have the coin in hand to verify. Next time I grab her I will take a look.
Here is a 35 O-108 with a close-up of one of the main PUP's, the vertical rays by the rim and lower olive leaves.
Interesting about the 'rays' that (from what I can see) the milling is more prevalent at the rays than other rim areas. I am sure that you do not, but I do (at this point) consider these marks to be of the same nomenclature as those found on the reverses of 1809 O-107a and 1812 O-109a; misaligned / tilted die clash.
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
Bad scan of a nice coin...
Looked at at least 200+ bust halves and didn't find one worth buying. I think I have picked the local area clean.
Guess I have to go photo some of my old ones
<< <i>Does anyone have an 1812 O-109 that they could please post pictures of? (Not a 109a, but a 109). Thanks! >>
Lewy, I could only find the 109-a in the PCGS set registry!! The 109 must be a real find!!!
Link
edited to add: What's going on with your 1807!! poor Liberty!!!
Like the 1837 look!!!
Lance.
<< <i>Does anyone have an 1812 O-109 that they could please post pictures of? (Not a 109a, but a 109). Thanks! >>
Here you go.
You're going to have to write a book about all you learned during this thread. Impressive!
Yes, that's an O.108, and the doubling is very sweet. I hope you enjoy yours!
Lance.
Jim, on that 1812 109 that you posted on this page, what are these marks that I have outlined (the heavy gouge or PMD looking one, and the small diagonally parallel lines on the olive leaves?
Won her raw from Stack's last year.......care to attribute, Lewy??
Stack's "High lustre/champagne hues...Moderately scarce and delightfully attractive."
Your welcome.....enjoy
Would love to see yours too Lewy.......please post it when it arrives.
Lance.
<< <i>Here's a '22, a lot like Dr. Dave's '20.
Lance.
Yes, Lance, it may have the same "look".....but WOW, a lot higher in grade I imagine and a GREAT strike......BEAUTIFUL bustie, love it!!!
I have always been fond of 1822's. My very first CBH was a 1822 and my avatar as well happens to be a 1822, which was the first bustie I posted in this incredible thread on page 1, third post down, and STILL one of my favorite bust halves that I own.
Your 1831 is a tough one for me Bully. I will have to go with O-118 though.
Yes, I will post the 1820 O-108 just as soon as I get it. Might be a few days though as it has to go through other hands before I end up with it. I wanted it for the sole purpose of checking out the olive leave doubling, so I didn't require a high grade example, but as you all already know, condition and quality are not my hallmarks.
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
You have caused me to wire my drool cup around my neck again.
<< <i>Nice to see some fresh blood blueifalcon. Nice coin too!
Your 1831 is a tough one for me Bully. I will have to go with O-118 though.
Yes, I will post the 1820 O-108 just as soon as I get it. Might be a few days though as it has to go through other hands before I end up with it. I wanted it for the sole purpose of checking out the olive leave doubling, so I didn't require a high grade example, but as you all already know, condition and quality are not my hallmarks. >>
Agreed, nice to see the new blood.
Lewy, you nailed it again.....O-118 R-3!!!
beartracks42.....WOW!!!! great coins and Todd images!!!!
Lance and Dave love the 1820 and the 1822!!!
49thStateofMind, congrats on your first lady!!!
600!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!