white spots on my pcgs cam proofs ! pic of damage here !

deltadimeman · November 19, 2009 7:07AM

i just pulled out my 1950-1964 pcgs cameo roosevelt set to take a look, some of them have aquired white and green spots ! owned them for three years or less and i didn't expect to see this kind of damage in a pcgs holder ? i guess they have been dipped before grading ?? anyone having this same problem with pcgs proof coins ? it sure is fun losing money on my investmets !!

JupitarCoins · November 19, 2009 8:04AM

Maybe you can send them in to get conservation on them.

Kameo · November 19, 2009 9:25AM

Sounds like your coins have milk spots. If so, I think they are impossible to remove.

telephoto1 · November 19, 2009 9:36AM

I think it may be a function of where the coins are stored and the climate/humidity. Slabs are not perfectly airtight. I refuse to buy proof coins or high end copper, slabbed or raw, at any show in the deep south or Florida for this reason (and a lot of dealers won't take nice copper to shows in these areas for the same reason- coins magically start to turn or spot after their return).

bushmaster8 · November 19, 2009 9:48AM

Milk spots don't "grow" on proofs from the 60's. Either a coin has them by now or it doesn't. (ASE's are a different story though.)

I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I see it way too much, not only on Proofs, but on white uncs.

I attribute probably 60% to mishandling by the greasy fingered, spittle spittin' guy in the sealing room. I really would like to do DNA analysis to prove my theory.

I actually have stopped trying to upgrade some of my white coins, because after being stable for many years in their original PCGS holders, they too often come back after regrade only to develop those "spots".

deltadimeman · November 19, 2009 9:55AM

yes, i was thinking humidity problems at first, but i checked all of my toned proofs and my mint state coins; no spots ! i'm thinking whoever submitted the coins dipped them to achieve the white cameo look , and now they are reacting to the chemical ? just my thinking, may be wrong ?

badger · December 10, 2009 3:02PM

I just saw this thread. I had the same problem with my 1950-1964 top pop proof Roosies that I sent in for reslabbing to get a pedigree added. The coins were spotless going in. Six months later many had developed white spots. I sent them into PCGS and they conserved what they could but most were not salvageable. PCGS offered fair prices for the coins that turned in the holder. I was lucky that the pops were such that I could find replacements for all but one. PCGS did an excellent job backing up their guarantee with action.

The spots did not look like milk spots.

These were stored the same place as my other proofs that did not turn. However, I did not get the others reslabbed. They were stored in intercept shields.

Dave

Bochiman · December 10, 2009 3:42PM

It may be inconvenient, but I would think that anyone in a TPGS that is handling the raw coins would be wearing those little surgical style mouth masks.
Or, at the least, the non-graders that handle the raw coins should....

PerryHall · December 10, 2009 9:08PM

<< i just pulled out my 1950-1964 pcgs cameo roosevelt set to take a look, some of them have aquired white and green spots ! owned them for three years or less and i didn't expect to see this kind of damage in a pcgs holder ? i guess they have been dipped before grading ?? anyone having this same problem with pcgs proof coins ? it sure is fun losing money on my investmets !! >>

You better quickly send them in for a grade review before PCGS changes their guarantee again.

PerryHall · December 10, 2009 9:11PM

<< It may be inconvenient, but I would think that anyone in a TPGS that is handling the raw coins would be wearing those little surgical style mouth masks.
Or, at the least, the non-graders that handle the raw coins should.... >>

Both should wear the masks. It's not like the non-graders are the only ones that breath.

BAJJERFAN · December 10, 2009 10:44PM

<< Milk spots don't "grow" on proofs from the 60's. Either a coin has them or it doesn't.

I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I see it way too much, not only on Proofs, but on white uncs.

I attribute probably 60% to mishandling by the greasy fingered, spittle spittin' guy in the sealing room. I really would like to do DNA analysis to prove my theory.

I actually have stopped trying to upgrade some of my white coins, because after being stable for many years in their original PCGS holders, they too often come back after regrade only to develop those "spots". >>

What proof do you have that there is biomaterial on them? The one spotted silver eagle that I had analyzed showed the presence of only chlorine.

BuffQuarter · December 10, 2009 10:51PM

Guess you should have invested in Gold. :-)

19Lyds · December 11, 2009 1:14AM

<< yes, i was thinking humidity problems at first, but i checked all of my toned proofs and my mint state coins; no spots ! i'm thinking whoever submitted the coins dipped them to achieve the white cameo look , and now they are reacting to the chemical ? just my thinking, may be wrong ? >>

Unfortunately, dipping does not produce a "White Cameo Look".................

19Lyds · December 11, 2009 1:18AM

<< What proof do you have that there is biomaterial on them? The one spotted silver eagle that I had analyzed showed the presence of only chlorine. >>

Chlorine?

Now that is very interesting since chlorine is a poison and it should be relatively easy to track its source at either the planchet suppliers, the Mint or the slabbers.

BAJJERFAN · December 11, 2009 2:37AM

<< 

<< What proof do you have that there is biomaterial on them? The one spotted silver eagle that I had analyzed showed the presence of only chlorine. >>

Chlorine?

Now that is very interesting since chlorine is a poison and it should be relatively easy to track its source at either the planchet suppliers, the Mint or the slabbers. >>

I have posted that info here any number of times. That is the result of looking at ONE ASE which was purchased from a board member and cracked from an NGC holder. My guess would be that it arises from a bleaching treatment and poopy rinsing.

Bochiman · December 11, 2009 4:55PM

<< 

<< Milk spots don't "grow" on proofs from the 60's. Either a coin has them or it doesn't.

I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I see it way too much, not only on Proofs, but on white uncs.

I attribute probably 60% to mishandling by the greasy fingered, spittle spittin' guy in the sealing room. I really would like to do DNA analysis to prove my theory.

I actually have stopped trying to upgrade some of my white coins, because after being stable for many years in their original PCGS holders, they too often come back after regrade only to develop those "spots". >>

What proof do you have that there is biomaterial on them? The one spotted silver eagle that I had analyzed showed the presence of only chlorine. >>

Apples and oranges.
What they are talking about are the white spots on earlier proofs.
What you are talking about are the milk spots on the ASEs that develop. I don't think they are the same. The chlorine you mention is likely from the planchet rinse and maybe that is what the mint should take care of and find another way to do it, or better clean them.

I would guess that, after chlorine gets involved, it is irreversible (hence the issue we have on the SAEs).

OregonCityGold · December 12, 2009 10:33AM

<< Milk spots don't "grow" on proofs from the 60's. Either a coin has them or it doesn't.

I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I see it way too much, not only on Proofs, but on white uncs.

I attribute probably 60% to mishandling by the greasy fingered, spittle spittin' guy in the sealing room. I really would like to do DNA analysis to prove my theory.

I actually have stopped trying to upgrade some of my white coins, because after being stable for many years in their original PCGS holders, they too often come back after regrade only to develop those "spots". >>

Interesting. That guy / gal could be costing PCGS millions of dollars, and almost certainly isn't vetted or paid as much as a grader.

golfer72 · December 12, 2009 10:47AM

If they grade coins with bare hands that is irresponsible. None of my Jeff Proofs ahve developed any problems.

BAJJERFAN · December 12, 2009 11:01AM

<< 

<< 

<< Milk spots don't "grow" on proofs from the 60's. Either a coin has them or it doesn't.

I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I see it way too much, not only on Proofs, but on white uncs.

I attribute probably 60% to mishandling by the greasy fingered, spittle spittin' guy in the sealing room. I really would like to do DNA analysis to prove my theory.

I actually have stopped trying to upgrade some of my white coins, because after being stable for many years in their original PCGS holders, they too often come back after regrade only to develop those "spots". >>

What proof do you have that there is biomaterial on them? The one spotted silver eagle that I had analyzed showed the presence of only chlorine. >>

Apples and oranges.
What they are talking about are the white spots on earlier proofs.
What you are talking about are the milk spots on the ASEs that develop. I don't think they are the same. The chlorine you mention is likely from the planchet rinse and maybe that is what the mint should take care of and find another way to do it, or better clean them.

I would guess that, after chlorine gets involved, it is irreversible (hence the issue we have on the SAEs). >>

The question is still valid. He offers NO PROOF of biomaterials on the coins; merely conjecture. As for the milk spots on ASEs, it has been said that you can see them with a halogen bulb flashlight BEFORE they become visible to the eye and at this point they can still be saved by dipping. It is AFTER the milk spots become visible that one is SCREWED.

BAJJERFAN · December 12, 2009 11:04AM

<< If they grade coins with bare hands that is irresponsible. None of my Jeff Proofs ahve developed any problems. >>

It is well known that the graders don't wear gloves. Your Jeff proofs aren't silver either.

RWB · December 12, 2009 11:12AM

The mint uses 2-butoxyethanol (<6%) [C6H14O2 ] to clean planchets. The only source of chlorine would be use of tap water instead of distilled water.

19Lyds · December 12, 2009 11:47AM

Is public water chlorinated Roger? I know that it purified and processed but I didn't think they chlorinated it.

BAJJERFAN · December 12, 2009 11:55AM

<< Is public water chlorinated Roger? I know that it purified and processed but I didn't think they chlorinated it. >>

Many municipalities chlorinate their tap water. Some use ozone instead.

BAJJERFAN · December 12, 2009 12:15PM

<< Milk spots don't "grow" on proofs from the 60's. Either a coin has them or it doesn't.

I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I see it way too much, not only on Proofs, but on white uncs.

I attribute probably 60% to mishandling by the greasy fingered, spittle spittin' guy in the sealing room. I really would like to do DNA analysis to prove my theory.

I actually have stopped trying to upgrade some of my white coins, because after being stable for many years in their original PCGS holders, they too often come back after regrade only to develop those "spots". >>

Find a commercial lab in your area with the capability to do ESCA [electron spectroscopy chemical analysis] aka XPS or x-ray photoelectron spectroscopy. They will tell you exactly what the elemental make up of the spots is. Might not be cheap. A small coin such as a dime should fit in their sample port and be recovered with no damage. When we did the ASE here it had to be cut into pieces in order to fit.

golfer72 · December 12, 2009 9:06PM

"Your Jeff proofs aren't silver either." One of them has some silver content.

boucharda · December 12, 2009 11:43PM

That pic looks like a petri dish a few days after someone sneezed on it

BAJJERFAN · December 12, 2009 11:49PM

<< 

<< 

<< Milk spots don't "grow" on proofs from the 60's. Either a coin has them or it doesn't.

I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I see it way too much, not only on Proofs, but on white uncs.

I attribute probably 60% to mishandling by the greasy fingered, spittle spittin' guy in the sealing room. I really would like to do DNA analysis to prove my theory.

I actually have stopped trying to upgrade some of my white coins, because after being stable for many years in their original PCGS holders, they too often come back after regrade only to develop those "spots". >>

What proof do you have that there is biomaterial on them? The one spotted silver eagle that I had analyzed showed the presence of only chlorine. >>

Apples and oranges.
What they are talking about are the white spots on earlier proofs.
What you are talking about are the milk spots on the ASEs that develop. I don't think they are the same. The chlorine you mention is likely from the planchet rinse and maybe that is what the mint should take care of and find another way to do it, or better clean them.

I would guess that, after chlorine gets involved, it is irreversible (hence the issue we have on the SAEs). >>

So what might be the difference between milk spots and white spots?

MORGANHUNTER2 · December 12, 2009 11:54PM

<< That pic looks like a petri dish a few days after someone sneezed on it

>>

actually it looks like oxidation from the slabbing room environment prior to the reslab of the coin.

It could be crap in the air system that may have caused that to the Roosie.

either way - I doubt that it will come out with a dip.

BAJJERFAN · December 13, 2009 12:05AM

<< The mint uses 2-butoxyethanol (<6%) [C6H14O2 ] to clean planchets. The only source of chlorine would be use of tap water instead of distilled water. >>

So where does this info come from? A poster from several years ago who used to work at the Sunshine Mint indicated they used a rinse agent [apparently proprietary] that came as a powder in a bag. Butyl cellosolve is a liquid.

I'd guess the residual mineral content of tap water might be more problematic than the chlorine.

OPA · December 13, 2009 12:31AM

<< 

<< The mint uses 2-butoxyethanol (<6%) [C6H14O2 ] to clean planchets. The only source of chlorine would be use of tap water instead of distilled water. >>

So where does this info come from? A poster from several years ago who used to work at the Sunshine Mint indicated they used a rinse agent [apparently proprietary] that came as a powder in a bag. Butyl cellosolve is a liquid.

I'd guess the residual mineral content of tap water might be more problematic than the chlorine. >>

I've seen "white or milk spots" develop on .999 silver deep cameo art bars from the late 80's or early 90's .... and those spots do not come out. I have no idea whether the manufacturer used a rinse on those, but I suspect they did. Having said that, I feel the culprit in most cases is the rinse.

BAJJERFAN · December 13, 2009 2:18AM

We seem to have a lot of guesses [spit, fingerprints, airborne dust, etc.] and other information/misinformation with no direct info from the mint on their processes. It's time to can the bullchit and put forth some actual lab analysis as I have suggested.

ricko · December 13, 2009 3:20AM

I believe, (and I could be wrong) that PCGS still has a $50K reward offer for the solution to milkspots on ASE's. Cheers, RickO

BAJJERFAN · December 13, 2009 3:39AM

<< I believe, (and I could be wrong) that PCGS still has a $50K reward offer for the solution to milkspots on ASE's. Cheers, RickO >>

AFAIK it has not been withdrawn.

RWB · December 13, 2009 3:58AM

<< The mint uses 2-butoxyethanol (<6%) [C6H14O2 ] to clean planchets. The only source of chlorine would be use of tap water instead of distilled water. >>
So where does this info come from?

Research into budgets, specifications, etc. and analysis of the data. Government budgets are public documents.

Gemineye · December 13, 2009 4:44AM

I stated once before that it might be the process that the mint was using to roll out the sheets of silver.As the silver get thinner each time it passes thru the rollers that there might be some oil or lubricant pressed onto the sheet as it passes again and again back and forth now imbedded into the metal.

jessewvu · December 13, 2009 4:51AM

Welcome to the club. Cost of membership, your prized coins. This probably wouldn't have happened if they were dipped prior to grading.

white spots on my pcgs cam proofs ! pic of damage here !

Comments

Leave a Comment