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white spots on my pcgs cam proofs ! pic of damage here !

i just pulled out my 1950-1964 pcgs cameo roosevelt set to take a look, some of them have aquired white and green spots ! owned them for three years or less and i didn't expect to see this kind of damage in a pcgs holder ? i guess they have been dipped before grading ?? anyone having this same problem with pcgs proof coins ? it sure is fun losing money on my investmets !!
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  • Maybe you can send them in to get conservation on them.
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  • Sounds like your coins have milk spots. If so, I think they are impossible to remove.
  • telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think it may be a function of where the coins are stored and the climate/humidity. Slabs are not perfectly airtight. I refuse to buy proof coins or high end copper, slabbed or raw, at any show in the deep south or Florida for this reason (and a lot of dealers won't take nice copper to shows in these areas for the same reason- coins magically start to turn or spot after their return).

    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
  • Milk spots don't "grow" on proofs from the 60's. Either a coin has them by now or it doesn't. (ASE's are a different story though.)

    I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I see it way too much, not only on Proofs, but on white uncs.

    I attribute probably 60% to mishandling by the greasy fingered, spittle spittin' guy in the sealing room. I really would like to do DNA analysis to prove my theory.

    I actually have stopped trying to upgrade some of my white coins, because after being stable for many years in their original PCGS holders, they too often come back after regrade only to develop those "spots".
    "Wars are really ugly! They're dirty
    and they're cold.
    I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
    Mary






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  • deltadimemandeltadimeman Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭

    yes, i was thinking humidity problems at first, but i checked all of my toned proofs and my mint state coins; no spots ! i'm thinking whoever submitted the coins dipped them to achieve the white cameo look , and now they are reacting to the chemical ? just my thinking, may be wrong ?
  • badgerbadger Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭
    I just saw this thread. I had the same problem with my 1950-1964 top pop proof Roosies that I sent in for reslabbing to get a pedigree added. The coins were spotless going in. Six months later many had developed white spots. I sent them into PCGS and they conserved what they could but most were not salvageable. PCGS offered fair prices for the coins that turned in the holder. I was lucky that the pops were such that I could find replacements for all but one. PCGS did an excellent job backing up their guarantee with action.

    The spots did not look like milk spots.

    These were stored the same place as my other proofs that did not turn. However, I did not get the others reslabbed. They were stored in intercept shields.

    Dave
    Collector of Modern Silver Proofs 1950-1964 -- PCGS Registry as Elite Cameo

    Link to 1950 - 1964 Proof Registry Set
    1938 - 1964 Proof Jeffersons w/ Varieties
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,556 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It may be inconvenient, but I would think that anyone in a TPGS that is handling the raw coins would be wearing those little surgical style mouth masks.
    Or, at the least, the non-graders that handle the raw coins should....

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,854 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>i just pulled out my 1950-1964 pcgs cameo roosevelt set to take a look, some of them have aquired white and green spots ! owned them for three years or less and i didn't expect to see this kind of damage in a pcgs holder ? i guess they have been dipped before grading ?? anyone having this same problem with pcgs proof coins ? it sure is fun losing money on my investmets !! >>



    You better quickly send them in for a grade review before PCGS changes their guarantee again.image







    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,854 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It may be inconvenient, but I would think that anyone in a TPGS that is handling the raw coins would be wearing those little surgical style mouth masks.
    Or, at the least, the non-graders that handle the raw coins should.... >>



    Both should wear the masks. It's not like the non-graders are the only ones that breath.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,328 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Milk spots don't "grow" on proofs from the 60's. Either a coin has them or it doesn't.

    I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I see it way too much, not only on Proofs, but on white uncs.

    I attribute probably 60% to mishandling by the greasy fingered, spittle spittin' guy in the sealing room. I really would like to do DNA analysis to prove my theory.

    I actually have stopped trying to upgrade some of my white coins, because after being stable for many years in their original PCGS holders, they too often come back after regrade only to develop those "spots". >>



    What proof do you have that there is biomaterial on them? The one spotted silver eagle that I had analyzed showed the presence of only chlorine.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • Guess you should have invested in Gold. :-)
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>yes, i was thinking humidity problems at first, but i checked all of my toned proofs and my mint state coins; no spots ! i'm thinking whoever submitted the coins dipped them to achieve the white cameo look , and now they are reacting to the chemical ? just my thinking, may be wrong ? >>



    Unfortunately, dipping does not produce a "White Cameo Look".................
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>What proof do you have that there is biomaterial on them? The one spotted silver eagle that I had analyzed showed the presence of only chlorine. >>



    Chlorine? image

    Now that is very interesting since chlorine is a poison and it should be relatively easy to track its source at either the planchet suppliers, the Mint or the slabbers.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,328 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>What proof do you have that there is biomaterial on them? The one spotted silver eagle that I had analyzed showed the presence of only chlorine. >>



    Chlorine? image

    Now that is very interesting since chlorine is a poison and it should be relatively easy to track its source at either the planchet suppliers, the Mint or the slabbers. >>



    I have posted that info here any number of times. That is the result of looking at ONE ASE which was purchased from a board member and cracked from an NGC holder. My guess would be that it arises from a bleaching treatment and poopy rinsing.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,556 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Milk spots don't "grow" on proofs from the 60's. Either a coin has them or it doesn't.

    I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I see it way too much, not only on Proofs, but on white uncs.

    I attribute probably 60% to mishandling by the greasy fingered, spittle spittin' guy in the sealing room. I really would like to do DNA analysis to prove my theory.

    I actually have stopped trying to upgrade some of my white coins, because after being stable for many years in their original PCGS holders, they too often come back after regrade only to develop those "spots". >>



    What proof do you have that there is biomaterial on them? The one spotted silver eagle that I had analyzed showed the presence of only chlorine. >>





    Apples and oranges.
    What they are talking about are the white spots on earlier proofs.
    What you are talking about are the milk spots on the ASEs that develop. I don't think they are the same. The chlorine you mention is likely from the planchet rinse and maybe that is what the mint should take care of and find another way to do it, or better clean them.

    I would guess that, after chlorine gets involved, it is irreversible (hence the issue we have on the SAEs).

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • << Milk spots don't "grow" on proofs from the 60's. Either a coin has them or it doesn't.

    I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I see it way too much, not only on Proofs, but on white uncs.

    I attribute probably 60% to mishandling by the greasy fingered, spittle spittin' guy in the sealing room. I really would like to do DNA analysis to prove my theory.

    I actually have stopped trying to upgrade some of my white coins, because after being stable for many years in their original PCGS holders, they too often come back after regrade only to develop those "spots". >>


    Interesting. That guy / gal could be costing PCGS millions of dollars, and almost certainly isn't vetted or paid as much as a grader.
  • If they grade coins with bare hands that is irresponsible. None of my Jeff Proofs ahve developed any problems.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,328 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Milk spots don't "grow" on proofs from the 60's. Either a coin has them or it doesn't.

    I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I see it way too much, not only on Proofs, but on white uncs.

    I attribute probably 60% to mishandling by the greasy fingered, spittle spittin' guy in the sealing room. I really would like to do DNA analysis to prove my theory.

    I actually have stopped trying to upgrade some of my white coins, because after being stable for many years in their original PCGS holders, they too often come back after regrade only to develop those "spots". >>



    What proof do you have that there is biomaterial on them? The one spotted silver eagle that I had analyzed showed the presence of only chlorine. >>





    Apples and oranges.
    What they are talking about are the white spots on earlier proofs.
    What you are talking about are the milk spots on the ASEs that develop. I don't think they are the same. The chlorine you mention is likely from the planchet rinse and maybe that is what the mint should take care of and find another way to do it, or better clean them.

    I would guess that, after chlorine gets involved, it is irreversible (hence the issue we have on the SAEs). >>



    The question is still valid. He offers NO PROOF of biomaterials on the coins; merely conjecture. As for the milk spots on ASEs, it has been said that you can see them with a halogen bulb flashlight BEFORE they become visible to the eye and at this point they can still be saved by dipping. It is AFTER the milk spots become visible that one is SCREWED.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,328 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If they grade coins with bare hands that is irresponsible. None of my Jeff Proofs ahve developed any problems. >>



    It is well known that the graders don't wear gloves. Your Jeff proofs aren't silver either.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    The mint uses 2-butoxyethanol (<6%) [C6H14O2 ] to clean planchets. The only source of chlorine would be use of tap water instead of distilled water.
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭
    Is public water chlorinated Roger? I know that it purified and processed but I didn't think they chlorinated it.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,328 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Is public water chlorinated Roger? I know that it purified and processed but I didn't think they chlorinated it. >>



    Many municipalities chlorinate their tap water. Some use ozone instead.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,328 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Milk spots don't "grow" on proofs from the 60's. Either a coin has them or it doesn't.

    I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I see it way too much, not only on Proofs, but on white uncs.

    I attribute probably 60% to mishandling by the greasy fingered, spittle spittin' guy in the sealing room. I really would like to do DNA analysis to prove my theory.

    I actually have stopped trying to upgrade some of my white coins, because after being stable for many years in their original PCGS holders, they too often come back after regrade only to develop those "spots". >>



    Find a commercial lab in your area with the capability to do ESCA [electron spectroscopy chemical analysis] aka XPS or x-ray photoelectron spectroscopy. They will tell you exactly what the elemental make up of the spots is. Might not be cheap. A small coin such as a dime should fit in their sample port and be recovered with no damage. When we did the ASE here it had to be cut into pieces in order to fit.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • "Your Jeff proofs aren't silver either." One of them has some silver content. image
  • That pic looks like a petri dish a few days after someone sneezed on it image
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,328 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Milk spots don't "grow" on proofs from the 60's. Either a coin has them or it doesn't.

    I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I see it way too much, not only on Proofs, but on white uncs.

    I attribute probably 60% to mishandling by the greasy fingered, spittle spittin' guy in the sealing room. I really would like to do DNA analysis to prove my theory.

    I actually have stopped trying to upgrade some of my white coins, because after being stable for many years in their original PCGS holders, they too often come back after regrade only to develop those "spots". >>



    What proof do you have that there is biomaterial on them? The one spotted silver eagle that I had analyzed showed the presence of only chlorine. >>





    Apples and oranges.
    What they are talking about are the white spots on earlier proofs.
    What you are talking about are the milk spots on the ASEs that develop. I don't think they are the same. The chlorine you mention is likely from the planchet rinse and maybe that is what the mint should take care of and find another way to do it, or better clean them.

    I would guess that, after chlorine gets involved, it is irreversible (hence the issue we have on the SAEs). >>



    So what might be the difference between milk spots and white spots?
    theknowitalltroll;


  • << <i>That pic looks like a petri dish a few days after someone sneezed on it image >>



    actually it looks like oxidation from the slabbing room environment prior to the reslab of the coin.

    It could be crap in the air system that may have caused that to the Roosie.

    either way - I doubt that it will come out with a dip.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,328 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The mint uses 2-butoxyethanol (<6%) [C6H14O2 ] to clean planchets. The only source of chlorine would be use of tap water instead of distilled water. >>



    So where does this info come from? A poster from several years ago who used to work at the Sunshine Mint indicated they used a rinse agent [apparently proprietary] that came as a powder in a bag. Butyl cellosolve is a liquid.

    I'd guess the residual mineral content of tap water might be more problematic than the chlorine.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • OPAOPA Posts: 17,141 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The mint uses 2-butoxyethanol (<6%) [C6H14O2 ] to clean planchets. The only source of chlorine would be use of tap water instead of distilled water. >>



    So where does this info come from? A poster from several years ago who used to work at the Sunshine Mint indicated they used a rinse agent [apparently proprietary] that came as a powder in a bag. Butyl cellosolve is a liquid.

    I'd guess the residual mineral content of tap water might be more problematic than the chlorine. >>



    I've seen "white or milk spots" develop on .999 silver deep cameo art bars from the late 80's or early 90's .... and those spots do not come out. I have no idea whether the manufacturer used a rinse on those, but I suspect they did. Having said that, I feel the culprit in most cases is the rinse.
    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,328 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We seem to have a lot of guesses [spit, fingerprints, airborne dust, etc.] and other information/misinformation with no direct info from the mint on their processes. It's time to can the bullchit and put forth some actual lab analysis as I have suggested.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I believe, (and I could be wrong) that PCGS still has a $50K reward offer for the solution to milkspots on ASE's. Cheers, RickO
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,328 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I believe, (and I could be wrong) that PCGS still has a $50K reward offer for the solution to milkspots on ASE's. Cheers, RickO >>



    AFAIK it has not been withdrawn.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    << The mint uses 2-butoxyethanol (<6%) [C6H14O2 ] to clean planchets. The only source of chlorine would be use of tap water instead of distilled water. >>
    So where does this info come from?


    Research into budgets, specifications, etc. and analysis of the data. Government budgets are public documents.
  • I stated once before that it might be the process that the mint was using to roll out the sheets of silver.As the silver get thinner each time it passes thru the rollers that there might be some oil or lubricant pressed onto the sheet as it passes again and again back and forth now imbedded into the metal.
    ......Larry........image
  • jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,065 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Welcome to the club. Cost of membership, your prized coins. This probably wouldn't have happened if they were dipped prior to grading.

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