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Authentic Proof Morgan?

C0inCollect0rC0inCollect0r Posts: 374 ✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
Hi all,

Sorry for one more question on the same day as my other one, but I am just trying to verify whether this piece is indeed a true Proof Morgan or not (obviously the coin has been cleaned and is not a very attractive example but I acquired it very very cheap and am just trying to verify whether it is indeed Proof or not).

image
image

Comments

  • Marauderrt10Marauderrt10 Posts: 1,097 ✭
    nope
  • cinman14cinman14 Posts: 2,489 ✭
    The devices don't look strong enough to be a proof... But I'm sure an expert will be along shortly....

  • Marauderrt10Marauderrt10 Posts: 1,097 ✭


    << <i>The devices don't look strong enough to be a proof... But I'm sure an expert will be along shortly.... >>

    it was a MS coin that was wizzed. I have a 1901 PR66CAM and it is struck way better than this.
  • anablepanablep Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No way José...
    Always looking for attractive rim toned Morgan and Peace dollars in PCGS or (older) ANA/ANACS holders!

    "Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."


    ~Wayne
  • cinman14cinman14 Posts: 2,489 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The devices don't look strong enough to be a proof... But I'm sure an expert will be along shortly.... >>

    it was a MS coin that was wizzed. I have a 1901 PR66CAM and it is struck way better than this. >>



    Ya think....image
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,313 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why couldn't someone have messed with a crappy date? That coin, if not a proof, looks like it would have been a decent BU. It may, in fact, be a proof, as typical 1901 business strikes look like they were thrown in the street, stepped on by a horse, crapped upon, then run over by a carriage as part of the minting process. PL fields are extremely rare, and attempting to polish the fields to their current appearance would have left halos around the letters. The strike is also uncharacteristically strong for a 1901 and the rims also look broad and sharp, sort of. I wouldn't be surprised if it were a proof.
    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • blu62vetteblu62vette Posts: 11,945 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The devices don't look strong enough to be a proof... But I'm sure an expert will be along shortly.... >>

    it was a MS coin that was wizzed. I have a 1901 PR66CAM and it is struck way better than this. >>



    Any pics of yours? I agree with messydesk, this is normally an awful year someone may have ruined something very nice.
    http://www.bluccphotos.com" target="new">BluCC Photos Shows for onsite imaging: Nov Baltimore, FUN, Long Beach http://www.facebook.com/bluccphotos" target="new">BluCC on Facebook
  • Marauderrt10Marauderrt10 Posts: 1,097 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>The devices don't look strong enough to be a proof... But I'm sure an expert will be along shortly.... >>

    it was a MS coin that was wizzed. I have a 1901 PR66CAM and it is struck way better than this. >>



    Any pics of yours? I agree with messydesk, this is normally an awful year someone may have ruined something very nice. >>


    no pics of the coin, its at my bank, i rarely take it out image
  • StuartStuart Posts: 9,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
    C0inCollect0r : Is there any evidence of a New Orleans "O" Mint Mark having been removed (polished away) on the reverse side below the bow in the wreath and above letters "DO" in dollar? I cannot discern this from your photo.

    I would expect it to be more likely for someone to monkey with a common date 1901-O, than an expensive date 1901 Philadelphia Mint Morgan. Even the 1901-S Morgans sell for a significant premium vs the 1901-O.

    Stuart

    Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal

    "Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
  • phehpheh Posts: 1,588 ✭
    I agree with Messydesk and blu62vette. I can't see anything specific to rule that coin out as a proof - I'd need better pictures. I've handled some *extremely* crappy proof Morgans, and more than a few dates are readily found circulated and/or cleaned.

    A quick check reveals that VAM-4 was the die pair used for the Proof strike. So check for a doubled reverse toward the rim.
  • C0inCollect0rC0inCollect0r Posts: 374 ✭✭
    Thanks for all of the input guys - I just looked at the coin through a magnifier and can see no evidence of a removed mintmark.

    Is there any particular region or area that I should try to re-photo that might allow for a definitive determination on this coin? I'm not exactly sure about what the VAM-4 doubling would look like?
  • nankrautnankraut Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭
    I'll bet the dremel was overheating when the guy whizzed that one. Proof? not a chance. IMHO, the coin is now worth melt.
    I'm the Proud recipient of a genuine "you suck" award dated 1/24/05. I was accepted into the "Circle of Trust" on 3/9/09.
  • soty27soty27 Posts: 1,956
    A 1901 proof morgan dollar should had the words (one dollar) slightly die doubled. I cant tell from your photos but thats what you should look for first.
  • morgandollar1878morgandollar1878 Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It looks like a proof to me, but it has been ruined from cleaning and maybe even light circulation.
    Instagram: nomad_numismatics
  • Wolf359Wolf359 Posts: 7,663 ✭✭✭
    Based on the poor photos and those outstanding rims and denticles, I think it's a proof.

    According to the big VAM book, a count of the edge reeding would be definitive. All business strikes for 1901 have 189 reeds. All proofs have only 186 reeds.
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  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,860 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Polished. Cull. Would look good in a belt buckle. Would make a nice pocket piece.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • dsessomdsessom Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is probably a proof, or was. The devices should be frosty, not shiny like the fields. My goodness, what a shame. That was a very nice coin before the (recent!) cleaning/polishing.
    Best regards,
    Dwayne F. Sessom
    Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
  • phehpheh Posts: 1,588 ✭
    Plenty of non-cameo 1901 Proofs out there. I was pretty convinced this coin was a proof until I enlarged the image significantly. This looks like a 2-olive reverse, which would rule this coin out as a Proof strike. Impossible to know for sure given the size of the images as the "second olive" could be a hit, dust, or a image artifact.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,860 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'll bet the dremel was overheating when the guy whizzed that one. >>



    Now that's funny.image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • erroiderroid Posts: 795 ✭
    "This looks like a 2-olive reverse, which would rule this coin out as a Proof strike."

    Good eye, the piece can't be a proof; it IS a great strike, and a damned shame that
    someone wanted to make it look better....
    John G Bradley II
  • LeeBoneLeeBone Posts: 4,614 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Amazing to see the differences in opinions of alot of the knowledgable board members image
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Opinions... hmmmmmm yep.... like grades > opinions. Count the reeds, that appears to be definitive. image Cheers, RickO
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,837 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It is probably a proof, or was. The devices should be frosty, not shiny like the fields. My goodness, what a shame. That was a very nice coin before the (recent!) cleaning/polishing. >>



    I'm not so sure that the devices should be frosty. If the 1901 Proof dollars are like the 1903 Proof dollars, the entire coin would be bright and shiny. For that reason I've never seen a Proof 1903 dollar that I liked.

    For what it's worth here is a certified 1883 Proof Morgan Dollar.

    imageimage
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • MorganChickenMorganChicken Posts: 221
    Looks either fake or very heavily polished and cleaned.
    Currently collecting Morgan Dollars and Seated Liberty Halves
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,837 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1901-P business strike Morgan Dollars are notorious for indifferent strikes and dull surfaces. Perhaps the misguided person who fooled with this one thought that he could "improve" it. I have no doubt that some of the so-so coins that would have fallen into the MS-60 to 63 grades have probably been worked on to make them “more attractive.” Perhaps that is what happened to this piece.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?

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