<< <i>This has indeed been a fascinating discussion, which is slowly going into the proverbial gutter in line with the mentality of "all dealers are slime-ball lowlifes who have icewater running through their veins, cheat everybody, make enormous amounts of money, have no ethics, and actually try to cover their expenses and make a profit on top of it-and if they're not selling to me below sheet or selling to me at a price I think is right they are scum, and if they paid more for the coin than I want to pay it's too bad and they should still bow down and pay homage to me and sell it below cost just for the privilege of selling it to me."
I think this sums it up. My God, everyone, don't you get tired of this broken record? If you don't like a dealer, his attitude, or his prices, LEAVE. Take your business elsewhere. Vote with your dollars! And if you are a dealer, wish the seller well in his search when he leaves. I have been on both sides of the table, and still am, and I have found many undesireables on both sides. It's called LIFE, and everyone experiences it everyday in every business, from restaurants to doctors offices, insurance companies and even on the highways. There will ALWAYS be people you would like to see evaporate.
As far as transacting business at a coin show without a table, I agree that the rules should be posted and if you want to transact business, just leave the bourse and take care of business outside. The people who think it is their right to transact business on the bourse floor (and even at a dealer's table) with other collectors have absolutely no decency. The dealers have paid for the tables, which go toward renting the room. It is not free! Would you think it is okay to take your home-baked goods into a bakery to sell to their customers? Or how about a private mechanic going into a car dealership service area and telling potential customers, "I can do the work for cheaper." And then perform the repairs in their parking lot! Hey, why not? They shouldn't mind, right? Or, why not take your own private-label canned goods into a supermarket and set up right in front of the registers and sell them yours - after all, the supermarket must be ripping everyone off, right? Where do you draw the line?
And if you have difficulty with this, you are certainly ruining whatever chance you have to actually ENJOY this hobby. Perhaps you should then find a different hobby - something that will bring you some degree of satisfaction.
Larry L.
>>
"The dealers have paid for the tables, which go toward renting the room. It is not free!"
With profits made off the COLLECTORS.....lets not forget that tiny little important part.
Gecko you rock! I am the only collector on the board of our local coin club, the rest are dealers. A bigger group of crybabys I have never met. No one wants to be the Bourse chairmen because they all complain so much. I collect in spite of the 90 % of dealers who suck.
If a dealer has passed on the coin what harm is there in talking to the seller if done away from the dealers tables? If you paid admission to get in to the show you have some rights too.
<< <i>"The dealers have paid for the tables, which go toward renting the room. It is not free!"
With profits made off the COLLECTORS.....lets not forget that tiny little important part. >>
If I had to rely on the "profits" I made from collectors with that kind of "You need ME" attitude at coin shows, I'd be busted. Easily 80% of my business is done (and my show made) before the first collector comes through the door. Those deals are done quickly and professionally, with no hassles... then the doors open, and fortunately there are many collectors who know how to trade in a courteous and professional manner.
But- there is a collective wince when the guys with their armload of price guides, cherrypicker's guides, and month old photocopies of someone else's Greysheet come in...
Some want to spend 2 hours going through everything with a loupe one at a time only to put it all back because nothing's priced at half of what it's worth...
Some want to impress us by telling us everything they know about RPMs, VAMs, die cracks, or the plebiscite coinage of upper Slobovia...
Some just want to tell us what's wrong with the coin hobby, and/or tell us about what scum dealers are...
Some want to tell us about everything they used to have, and how it was better than any of the items we have in the case...
Some complain about prices as they go through stock one piece at a time to see if something's priced too cheap...and should they find something, make ridiculous offers, or whip out low end trade material that they have priced at retail plus after we've just quoted them our best cash price. And get mad when we decline.
Some often butt in on deals, make other customers uncomfortable by looking over their shoulder to see what they are buying or selling... and then they try to do deals with others at our tables on top of it all...
Yet, they believe we have no right to be frustrated or angry about it because, after all, that's what we're here for, and by the way, they paid as much as $5 to be there.
But what I really like is how they tell us that we dealers are unnecessary and not really needed because collectors are what's important... then they hand us their want list.
(Edit to add: Quite obviously this post is made to illustrate a point... so nitpickers needn't point out the obvious, i.e., not all collectors are like this.)
I said earlier in the post that collectors should vote with their dollars. If you don't like the price, take your money elsewhere. I had someone yesterday that couldn't understand why I would not sell a coin to him at a price HE thought was the "right" price. It just so happens that his price was far less than what I had paid. Rather than take his money elsewhere, he just kept at it. I guess his line of reasoning was: "I really like and want the coin, but you should still sell it to me at my price, even if it means you taking a loss." My line of reasoning was, politely, "no, thank you." And then I had to hear about how long he had been looking for the coin IN THIS CONDITION". I wished him well in his search.
The fact is that while there are dealers that people don't want to deal with, there are also collectors that dealers don't want to deal with either. It is a two-way street. Hammering all dealers or all collectors is not the right thing. There are dealers AND there are collectors who don't belong in the hobby. However, when there are dealers and collectors who have a MUTUAL RESPECT for one another, then a lasting business relationship develops. It is beneficial for BOTH.
Larry L.
Autism Awareness: There is no limit to the good you can do, if you don't care who gets the credit.
<< <i>I said earlier in the post that collectors should vote with their dollars. If you don't like the price, take your money elsewhere. I had someone yesterday that couldn't understand why I would not sell a coin to him at a price HE thought was the "right" price. It just so happens that his price was far less than what I had paid. Rather than take his money elsewhere, he just kept at it. I guess his line of reasoning was: "I really like and want the coin, but you should still sell it to me at my price, even if it means you taking a loss." My line of reasoning was, politely, "no, thank you." And then I had to hear about how long he had been looking for the coin IN THIS CONDITION". I wished him well in his search.
The fact is that while there are dealers that people don't want to deal with, there are also collectors that dealers don't want to deal with either. It is a two-way street. Hammering all dealers or all collectors is not the right thing. There are dealers AND there are collectors who don't belong in the hobby. However, when there are dealers and collectors who have a MUTUAL RESPECT for one another, then a lasting business relationship develops. It is beneficial for BOTH.
I'm all for respect, both giving and receiving... but when someone spits in my face, be it figuratively or literally, I'm not going to just stand there and ask them if it's raining.
What etiquette? Should it only apply to buyers and not dealers or dealer agents?
I 've had this happen to me at the last New York ANA from a very high end well known buyer who roams the bourse for a well known large coin firm. I had just negotiated a discount on a piece I wanted , the deal was accepted from the dealer and He the kid buyer cuts in front of me as I was holding the coin and offered the full price on the coin to the dealer and the dealer broke his sale with me and sold it to him! The little guy doesn't have a chance, in the good old boy network. That firm does not have good press with me.
<< <i>What etiquette? Should it only apply to buyers and not dealers or dealer agents?
I 've had this happen to me at the last New York ANA from a very high end well known buyer who roams the bourse for a well known large coin firm. I had just negotiated a discount on a piece I wanted , the deal was accepted from the dealer and He the kid buyer cuts in front of me as I was holding the coin and offered the full price on the coin to the dealer and the dealer broke his sale with me and sold it to him! The little guy doesn't have a chance, in the good old boy network. That firm does not have good press with me.
Krueger >>
Who was this dealer? He deserves some negative publicity.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>What etiquette? Should it only apply to buyers and not dealers or dealer agents?
I 've had this happen to me at the last New York ANA from a very high end well known buyer who roams the bourse for a well known large coin firm. I had just negotiated a discount on a piece I wanted , the deal was accepted from the dealer and He the kid buyer cuts in front of me as I was holding the coin and offered the full price on the coin to the dealer and the dealer broke his sale with me and sold it to him! The little guy doesn't have a chance, in the good old boy network. That firm does not have good press with me.
Krueger >>
Who was this dealer? He deserves some negative publicity. >>
We would have had words, that's uncalled for. Also if you had a deal, what the heck was the seller doing???
Yes, and its not a bad idea - If I could get to him without interrupting a transaction at some dealers table and being noticed you bet.
Key strategem - outta sight outta mind. If the show is nice enough there may be a commisary where you can sit down with him.
I have been set up at a show and seen this say a couple of aisles over looking to sell stuff, got up, and hustled the guy to come to my table. I ended up buying a really nice currency collection from him at a great price. It was such a smooth surgical strike I don't believe anyone noticed. This show had been so slow, so poorly attended (most of them broke), that this one thing prevented it from being a total disaster. I will say this over and over - some of the best buying shows I have had were at really bad selling shows. If a show is really slow, I will get up and walk around looking for some seller wandering the bourse.
<< <i>"But- there is a collective wince when the guys with their armload of price guides, cherrypicker's guides, and month old photocopies of someone else's Greysheet come in... >>
Yeah, these are the guys that either never buy or never get good prices, as the dealers never show these yahoos their good coins. Savvy cherrypickers know how to grade, know what they are looking for, and know (without looking) what the "common price" is for a coin they are looking to cherrypick.
"Holy Bourse Batman , we have seen this Joker before !
Some want to spend 2 hours going through everything with a loupe one at a time only to put it all back because nothing's priced at half of what it's worth...
Thank you telephoto1 --Been there ,seen it , done that . And yes , it will probably be a repeat at my next show .
You just have to respect the dealers. Don't piss on his territory. It seem sort of obvious what the right thing to do is...Do it outside, No under laying laws about that.. Its all about respect, The dealer, seller, the guy making a deal...
Winner of the "You Suck!" award March 17, 2010 by LanLord, doh, 123cents and Bear.
Comments
<< <i>This has indeed been a fascinating discussion, which is slowly going into the proverbial gutter in line with the mentality of "all dealers are slime-ball lowlifes who have icewater running through their veins, cheat everybody, make enormous amounts of money, have no ethics, and actually try to cover their expenses and make a profit on top of it-and if they're not selling to me below sheet or selling to me at a price I think is right they are scum, and if they paid more for the coin than I want to pay it's too bad and they should still bow down and pay homage to me and sell it below cost just for the privilege of selling it to me."
I think this sums it up. My God, everyone, don't you get tired of this broken record? If you don't like a dealer, his attitude, or his prices, LEAVE. Take your business elsewhere. Vote with your dollars! And if you are a dealer, wish the seller well in his search when he leaves. I have been on both sides of the table, and still am, and I have found many undesireables on both sides. It's called LIFE, and everyone experiences it everyday in every business, from restaurants to doctors offices, insurance companies and even on the highways. There will ALWAYS be people you would like to see evaporate.
As far as transacting business at a coin show without a table, I agree that the rules should be posted and if you want to transact business, just leave the bourse and take care of business outside. The people who think it is their right to transact business on the bourse floor (and even at a dealer's table) with other collectors have absolutely no decency. The dealers have paid for the tables, which go toward renting the room. It is not free! Would you think it is okay to take your home-baked goods into a bakery to sell to their customers? Or how about a private mechanic going into a car dealership service area and telling potential customers, "I can do the work for cheaper." And then perform the repairs in their parking lot! Hey, why not? They shouldn't mind, right? Or, why not take your own private-label canned goods into a supermarket and set up right in front of the registers and sell them yours - after all, the supermarket must be ripping everyone off, right? Where do you draw the line?
And if you have difficulty with this, you are certainly ruining whatever chance you have to actually ENJOY this hobby. Perhaps you should then find a different hobby - something that will bring you some degree of satisfaction.
Larry L.
"The dealers have paid for the tables, which go toward renting the room. It is not free!"
With profits made off the COLLECTORS.....lets not forget that tiny little important part.
Lafayette Grading Set
And did it today at a gun show. But folks DO walk around with signs advertising what they are selling at gun shows.
<< <i>"The dealers have paid for the tables, which go toward renting the room. It is not free!"
With profits made off the COLLECTORS.....lets not forget that tiny little important part.
If I had to rely on the "profits" I made from collectors with that kind of "You need ME" attitude at coin shows, I'd be busted. Easily 80% of my business is done (and my show made) before the first collector comes through the door. Those deals are done quickly and professionally, with no hassles... then the doors open, and fortunately there are many collectors who know how to trade in a courteous and professional manner.
But- there is a collective wince when the guys with their armload of price guides, cherrypicker's guides, and month old photocopies of someone else's Greysheet come in...
Some want to spend 2 hours going through everything with a loupe one at a time only to put it all back because nothing's priced at half of what it's worth...
Some want to impress us by telling us everything they know about RPMs, VAMs, die cracks, or the plebiscite coinage of upper Slobovia...
Some just want to tell us what's wrong with the coin hobby, and/or tell us about what scum dealers are...
Some want to tell us about everything they used to have, and how it was better than any of the items we have in the case...
Some complain about prices as they go through stock one piece at a time to see if something's priced too cheap...and should they find something, make ridiculous offers, or whip out low end trade material that they have priced at retail plus after we've just quoted them our best cash price. And get mad when we decline.
Some often butt in on deals, make other customers uncomfortable by looking over their shoulder to see what they are buying or selling...
and then they try to do deals with others at our tables on top of it all...
Yet, they believe we have no right to be frustrated or angry about it because, after all, that's what we're here for, and by the way, they paid as much as $5 to be there.
But what I really like is how they tell us that we dealers are unnecessary and not really needed because collectors are what's important... then they hand us their want list.
(Edit to add: Quite obviously this post is made to illustrate a point... so nitpickers needn't point out the obvious, i.e., not all collectors are like this.)
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
The fact is that while there are dealers that people don't want to deal with, there are also collectors that dealers don't want to deal with either. It is a two-way street. Hammering all dealers or all collectors is not the right thing. There are dealers AND there are collectors who don't belong in the hobby. However, when there are dealers and collectors who have a MUTUAL RESPECT for one another, then a lasting business relationship develops. It is beneficial for BOTH.
Larry L.
<< <i>I said earlier in the post that collectors should vote with their dollars. If you don't like the price, take your money elsewhere. I had someone yesterday that couldn't understand why I would not sell a coin to him at a price HE thought was the "right" price. It just so happens that his price was far less than what I had paid. Rather than take his money elsewhere, he just kept at it. I guess his line of reasoning was: "I really like and want the coin, but you should still sell it to me at my price, even if it means you taking a loss." My line of reasoning was, politely, "no, thank you." And then I had to hear about how long he had been looking for the coin IN THIS CONDITION". I wished him well in his search.
The fact is that while there are dealers that people don't want to deal with, there are also collectors that dealers don't want to deal with either. It is a two-way street. Hammering all dealers or all collectors is not the right thing. There are dealers AND there are collectors who don't belong in the hobby. However, when there are dealers and collectors who have a MUTUAL RESPECT for one another, then a lasting business relationship develops. It is beneficial for BOTH.
Larry L.
BEST POST ON THIS EVER!!!
(bolding is mine)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
What etiquette? Should it only apply to buyers and not dealers or dealer agents?
I 've had this happen to me at the last New York ANA from a very high end well known buyer who roams the bourse for a well known large coin firm. I had just negotiated a discount on a piece I wanted , the deal was accepted from the dealer and He the kid buyer cuts in front of me as I was holding the coin and offered the full price on the coin to the dealer and the dealer broke his sale with me and sold it to him! The little guy doesn't have a chance, in the good old boy network. That firm does not have good press with me.
Krueger
<< <i>What etiquette? Should it only apply to buyers and not dealers or dealer agents?
I 've had this happen to me at the last New York ANA from a very high end well known buyer who roams the bourse for a well known large coin firm. I had just negotiated a discount on a piece I wanted , the deal was accepted from the dealer and He the kid buyer cuts in front of me as I was holding the coin and offered the full price on the coin to the dealer and the dealer broke his sale with me and sold it to him! The little guy doesn't have a chance, in the good old boy network. That firm does not have good press with me.
Krueger >>
Who was this dealer? He deserves some negative publicity.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>What etiquette? Should it only apply to buyers and not dealers or dealer agents?
I 've had this happen to me at the last New York ANA from a very high end well known buyer who roams the bourse for a well known large coin firm. I had just negotiated a discount on a piece I wanted , the deal was accepted from the dealer and He the kid buyer cuts in front of me as I was holding the coin and offered the full price on the coin to the dealer and the dealer broke his sale with me and sold it to him! The little guy doesn't have a chance, in the good old boy network. That firm does not have good press with me.
Krueger >>
Who was this dealer? He deserves some negative publicity. >>
We would have had words, that's uncalled for. Also if you had a deal, what the heck was the seller doing???
Key strategem - outta sight outta mind. If the show is nice enough there may be a commisary where you can sit down with him.
I have been set up at a show and seen this say a couple of aisles over looking to sell stuff, got up, and hustled the guy to come to my table. I ended up buying a really nice currency collection from him at a great price. It was such a smooth surgical strike I don't believe anyone noticed. This show had been so slow, so poorly attended (most of them broke), that this one thing prevented it from being a total disaster. I will say this over and over - some of the best buying shows I have had were at really bad selling shows. If a show is really slow, I will get up and walk around looking for some seller wandering the bourse.
<< <i>"But- there is a collective wince when the guys with their armload of price guides, cherrypicker's guides, and month old photocopies of someone else's Greysheet come in... >>
Yeah, these are the guys that either never buy or never get good prices, as the dealers never show these yahoos their good coins. Savvy cherrypickers know how to grade, know what they are looking for, and know (without looking) what the "common price" is for a coin they are looking to cherrypick.
"Holy Bourse Batman , we have seen this Joker before !
Some want to spend 2 hours going through everything with a loupe one at a time only to put it all back because nothing's priced at half of what it's worth...
Thank you telephoto1 --Been there ,seen it , done that . And yes , it will probably be a repeat at my next show .