Opinions on the grade of my new Flowing hair half? Crusty or cleaned?

fivecents · August 26, 2009 1:03AM

Coin is not in hand, I only have the images to go by.

Crusty or cleaned hard to tell from the images. Don't hold back.

kryptonitecomics · August 26, 2009 1:16AM

Looks like it has been dipped but there is still some crust in the recesses and the coin has been retoning for some time......acceptable in my opinion.

DennisH · August 26, 2009 1:31AM

Looks like way more detail and rims than a Good-06, but also looks washed or rubbed or something to have a degree of shinyness. A case of excessive net grading perhaps.

Quarternut · August 26, 2009 1:56AM

O-113a R-4 A/E Variety (in STATES)

Looks like a G-6 to me and CAC agrees...

QN

dorkkarl · August 26, 2009 3:02AM

if that is a good digi-pic & that is really that that coin looks like, then the dudes at cac gotta be looking at coins through a paper sack. that abomination is cleaned to high he11

K S

fivecents · August 26, 2009 3:07AM

<< if that is a good digi-pic & that is really that that coin looks like, then the dudes at cac gotta be looking at coins through a paper sack. that abomination is cleaned to high he11 >>

I am hoping the seller is making the coin look worse than it is by imaging it with too much light.

MikeInFL · August 26, 2009 3:59AM

Not a bad coin by flowing hair standards, but it does appear to have been dipped/cleaned in the past to me.

That said, if the TPGs (or CAC) only slabbed (and stickered) uncleaned flowing hair halves, I think there would be all of six slabbed examples and all of them would be black.

Nice coin, congrats!

stman · August 26, 2009 4:08AM

<< Crusty or cleaned hard to tell from the images. Don't hold back. >>

Don't hold back? OK...... Even if the lighting was harsh I don't see "crusty" whatsoever no way, no how. Even with the green label holder, and the green sticker this coin would not be a consideration for me to buy. I don't care for it, I can get a good enough read on these images to have a good idea what it looks like.

BTW, I actually did hold back on my reply. This is me being nice.

maibockaddict · August 26, 2009 4:19AM

I don't think I would want to judge from these picks, but my guess would also be dipped then envelope toned. But you do not know for sure if the pics are accurate or not...

MidLifeCrisis · August 26, 2009 4:43AM

<< if that is a good digi-pic & that is really that that coin looks like, then the dudes at cac gotta be looking at coins through a paper sack. that abomination is cleaned to high he11

K S >>

My first thought when I opened the thread was cleaned.

Mowgli · August 26, 2009 5:18AM

<< Not a bad coin by flowing hair standards, but it does appear to have been dipped/cleaned in the past to me.

That said, if the TPGs (or CAC) only slabbed (and stickered) uncleaned flowing hair halves, I think there would be all of six slabbed examples and all of them would be black.

Nice coin, congrats! >>

MidLifeCrisis · August 26, 2009 5:23AM

<< That said, if the TPGs (or CAC) only slabbed (and stickered) uncleaned flowing hair halves, I think there would be all of six slabbed examples and all of them would be black. >>

I gotta admit, Mike makes a good point.

RYK · August 26, 2009 5:23AM

At least the sticker looks original.

I think the coin was probably net-graded for the cleaning...maybe not enough.

Barry · August 26, 2009 5:32AM

<< At least the sticker looks original.

I think the coin was probably net-graded for the cleaning...maybe not enough. >>

And CAC net-stickered it for what reason?

PerryHall · August 26, 2009 5:38AM

<< 

<< At least the sticker looks original.

I think the coin was probably net-graded for the cleaning...maybe not enough. >>

And CAC net-stickered it for what reason? >>

Is it possible one of the CAC owners owned this coin?

fc · August 26, 2009 5:39AM

<< 

<< At least the sticker looks original.

I think the coin was probably net-graded for the cleaning...maybe not enough. >>

And CAC net-stickered it for what reason? >>

because they know they could sell it down the road i suppose.
it is a highly desirable coin in any condition.

to answer the OP.. looked cleaned up to me. but i have seen much
worse and this is not it.

coinkat · August 26, 2009 5:44AM

avoid- sorry

I wonder about CAC when I see a coin like this

dorkkarl · August 26, 2009 5:58AM

<< 

<< At least the sticker looks original.

I think the coin was probably net-graded for the cleaning...maybe not enough. >>

And CAC net-stickered it for what reason? >>

net-sticker!

BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

what's next , details-sticker only?

BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

K S

pmac · August 26, 2009 6:44AM

<< Not a bad coin by flowing hair standards, but it does appear to have been dipped/cleaned in the past to me.

That said, if the TPGs (or CAC) only slabbed (and stickered) uncleaned flowing hair halves, I think there would be all of six slabbed examples and all of them would be black.

Nice coin, congrats! >>

My feelings exactly.

JoeLewis · August 26, 2009 9:25AM

It looks more like a high-end VG coin to me

fivecents · August 26, 2009 9:36AM

<< It looks more like a high-end VG coin to me >>

That is what I was thinking. It has a lot of meat for the grade. I was hoping if it was CAC approved maybe it might not look as washed out in hand. Regardless I am keeping this coin. With help from 15% cashback, the price was right for the details the coin has.

Patches · August 26, 2009 9:37AM

I thought CAC was for certifying properly graded, non-messed with coins...to protect those who can't tell if the certified coin they are buying has been doctored or improperly graded?

Elcontador · August 26, 2009 9:44AM

Quite a bit of silver Draped Bust material has been cleaned, slabbed, and net graded. It's deemed to be "market acceptable." While some of it doesn't look bad, per se, personally, I avoid those coins. But to each his own.

SamByrd · August 26, 2009 11:47AM

that coin looks exactly as it should. Cleaned in the past perhaps as well as almost all other silver coins of the era. I am no CAC fan at all but all there saying is they agree with the grade and so do I its a textbook g6. It is a fantastic coin.

nankraut · August 26, 2009 11:50AM

<< Not a bad coin by flowing hair standards, but it does appear to have been dipped/cleaned in the past to me.

That said, if the TPGs (or CAC) only slabbed (and stickered) uncleaned flowing hair halves, I think there would be all of six slabbed examples and all of them would be black.

Nice coin, congrats! >>

I agree wholeheartedly with the above comments. For the date, I think this coin is correctly graded, and I wouldn't hesitate to place it in my collection. (but I can't afford it right now).

MORGANHUNTER2 · August 26, 2009 11:56AM

So CAC will stiker crap looking coins no matter how old or what condition they are in.

Amazing, simply amazing.

this should have BB'd back in the late 80's according to PCGS standards.

Really would like to see it grade today WITHOUT the green sticka!

and the question was raised about licensing TPG's and dealers????

fivecents · August 26, 2009 4:00PM

Thanks for the opinions. Please keep them coming.

The CAC greenbean makes me feel like the coin will be much darker in hand. If the coin is completely hideous why would CAC greenbean it? Because of the meaty deatils for the grade. If the coin is hideous in hand, I guess CAC is agreeing with PCGS's net grading.

morgandollar1878 · August 26, 2009 4:02PM

Looks like an old cleaning to me.

clackamas · August 26, 2009 4:30PM

<< if that is a good digi-pic & that is really that that coin looks like, then the dudes at cac gotta be looking at coins through a paper sack. that abomination is cleaned to high he11

K S >>

Ahmen

dorkkarl · August 26, 2009 9:35PM

i keep seeing goofy comments like "most of them have been cleaned". this is NOT TRUE of low grade f.h. material, esp. in the ag/g/vg level. most of them XF & ABOVE have been cleaned but < f-12, you should be able to easily stick w/ original coins

do not be fooled by such wacky wrong statements. i would guess that at the au+ level, 98% of early silver has been cleaned, but below f-12, it is more like 1/3.

again, dump that 1, have the patience to get a better example not cleaned.

K S

BillJones · August 26, 2009 11:38PM

I'm not a fan of this coin. It has been cleaned, and it has hairlines.

About three years ago I had one of these coins in a PCGS VG-10 holder. It was totally original and had great eye appeal for the grade. I paid $1,500 for it and turned it over at the same FUN show for a 10% mark-up. It ran circles around this piece.

I've not been impressed with many of the early coins I've seen with CAC stickers. They tend to ignore cleaning and other problems. I would never pay a premium for an early coin just because it has a CAC sticker. I need to see the coin first.

291fifth · August 26, 2009 11:48PM

It has a green bean. Any opinion I have would be meaningless.

fivecents · August 27, 2009 12:55AM

<< again, dump that 1, have the patience to get a better example not cleaned.[/QYou seem to think super original flowing hair halves are a dime a dozen dorkkarl. What coin shops / shows do you frequent?
I am not goin to " dump that 1".

ARCO · August 27, 2009 1:01AM

The coin has nicer color than many, but it looks like it has been cleaned and has hairlines. Of course early date coinage gets a much wider berth for past cleanings than do many other series, so you still get a lot of cleaned and problem looking coins in PCGS slabs.

I would give it a 6.5 out of 10 on the eye appeal chart. Like Dorkkarl opined, I would definitely wait for a nicer, unmolested example.

Tyler

fivecents · August 27, 2009 2:09AM

This coin is not my only example of a flowing hair half. This is a crusty PCGS G04.

HoledandCreative · August 27, 2009 2:48AM

I don't have any TPG graded 1795s. Maybe someone could post a G6, VG8, VG10, F12, and F15 coins to compare to the OP's coin. This would certainly confirm net-grading on the OP example. I like the looks of the coin in the photo and I would consider it an excellent value for G6 money. To me, net-grading is not useful (unless buying)and is a lot more subjective than the technical grading. The technical grade and the reason(s) for the net-grade are far more important for value considerations. ANACS used to net-grade but gave it up.

ARCO · August 27, 2009 3:16AM

<< I don't have any TPG graded 1795s. Maybe someone could post a G6, VG8, VG10, F12, and F15 coins to compare to the OP's coin. This would certainly confirm net-grading on the OP example. I like the looks of the coin in the photo and I would consider it an excellent value for G6 money. To me, net-grading is not useful (unless buying)and is a lot more subjective than the technical grading. The technical grade and the reason(s) for the net-grade are far more important for value considerations. ANACS used to net-grade but gave it up. >>

Alpine numismatics has a pretty nice looking PCGS VG10. It still looks like it might have some light hairlines. Alpine Numismatics

Also, Harry Laibstain has a 1795 O-126 PCGS VG10 That has the perfect look that I love, but the price? Does it come in a diamond encrusted case or what?

Tyler

fc · August 27, 2009 3:18AM

now the coin above my post is a great example i would love to own.
the original OP one.. not so much.

MikeInFL · August 27, 2009 3:18AM

<< I don't have any TPG graded 1795s. Maybe someone could post a G6, VG8, VG10, F12, and F15 coins to compare to the OP's coin. This would certainly confirm net-grading on the OP example. I like the looks of the coin in the photo and I would consider it an excellent value for G6 money. To me, net-grading is not useful (unless buying)and is a lot more subjective than the technical grading. The technical grade and the reason(s) for the net-grade are far more important for value considerations. ANACS used to net-grade but gave it up. >>

Here are all the 1794 and 1795 half dollars sold on Heritage. Judge the grading (and the relative number of cleaned examples) for yourself...Mike

http://coins.ha.com/common/search_results.php?N=51+790+231+370&Ne=304&D=1794+or+1795&Ntx=mode%2Bmatchboolean&Ns=&Nf=&Ntt=1794+or+1795&x=19&y=11&Ntk=SI_Titles

dorkkarl · August 27, 2009 3:30AM

<< 

<< again, dump that 1, have the patience to get a better example not cleaned.[/QYou seem to think super original flowing hair halves are a dime a dozen dorkkarl. What coin shops / shows do you frequent?
I am not goin to " dump that 1". >>

HUH??? why do you think i said BE PATIENT??? of course they don't fall out of trees, but if you persist, you WILL find a uncleaned example

K S

MikeInFL · August 27, 2009 4:40AM

<< i keep seeing goofy comments like "most of them have been cleaned". this is NOT TRUE of low grade f.h. material, esp. in the ag/g/vg level. most of them XF & ABOVE have been cleaned but < f-12, you should be able to easily stick w/ original coins

do not be fooled by such wacky wrong statements. i would guess that at the au+ level, 98% of early silver has been cleaned, but below f-12, it is more like 1/3. >>

<< HUH??? why do you think i said BE PATIENT??? of course they don't fall out of trees, but if you persist, you WILL find a uncleaned example >>

First 1/3 of the low grade examples are original, and now you have to be patient to find one.

As you might say, Ken...

BWAHAHAHAHA

fc · August 27, 2009 5:01AM

<< 

<< i keep seeing goofy comments like "most of them have been cleaned". this is NOT TRUE of low grade f.h. material, esp. in the ag/g/vg level. most of them XF & ABOVE have been cleaned but < f-12, you should be able to easily stick w/ original coins

do not be fooled by such wacky wrong statements. i would guess that at the au+ level, 98% of early silver has been cleaned, but below f-12, it is more like 1/3. >>

<< HUH??? why do you think i said BE PATIENT??? of course they don't fall out of trees, but if you persist, you WILL find a uncleaned example >>

First 1/3 of the low grade examples are original, and now you have to be patient to find one.

As you might say, Ken...

BWAHAHAHAHA >>

well based on simple math it seems if the ratio is 1 to every 3 is
not cleaned up.. you would have to wait triple the time to find a nicer
one.

seems to me that is the defintion of patience when it comes to buying
a coin. waiting triple the amount of time. perhaps putting it another
way you will have to wait for 3 major auctions or what have you.

stman · August 27, 2009 5:07AM

I already stated my opinion, and don't care to debate my opinion. I will say yes, these are tough to find completely original. There are many that are more original than not though. And can be found quite easily but you're going to have to step up and pay good money for it. I also feel folks want to call anything with some brown on the coin "crusty." Starting to remind me when anything with a touch of color was/is called "Rainbow." Agreed we need to take into consideration the age of the coin and most have been boinked with. Myself, I try to find the ones that are perhaps original now. Or completely original. Yes, I'll take that nasty one that is full of old crud or black before I'll take a stripped one.

I also don't try and figure out or care why a certain company would slab or sticker a coin that's been boinked with. They do IMO and that's really all there is to it.

MikeInFL · August 27, 2009 5:14AM

<< 

<< 

<< i keep seeing goofy comments like "most of them have been cleaned". this is NOT TRUE of low grade f.h. material, esp. in the ag/g/vg level. most of them XF & ABOVE have been cleaned but < f-12, you should be able to easily stick w/ original coins

do not be fooled by such wacky wrong statements. i would guess that at the au+ level, 98% of early silver has been cleaned, but below f-12, it is more like 1/3. >>

<< HUH??? why do you think i said BE PATIENT??? of course they don't fall out of trees, but if you persist, you WILL find a uncleaned example >>

First 1/3 of the low grade examples are original, and now you have to be patient to find one.

As you might say, Ken...

BWAHAHAHAHA >>

well based on simple math it seems if the ratio is 1 to every 3 is
not cleaned up.. you would have to wait triple the time to find a nicer
one.

seems to me that is the defintion of patience when it comes to buying
a coin. waiting triple the amount of time. perhaps putting it another
way you will have to wait for 3 major auctions or what have you. >>

While I disagree (strongly) with the premise that 1/3 are original, I'm with you, FC -- but its not like these are rare coins. Go to any major auction and you have multiple examples to choose from -- just take a look at the Heritage link I posed above where you will see 9 examples in the LA ANA auction alone, for example. Take care...Mike

MikeInFL · August 27, 2009 5:16AM

<< I already stated my opinion, and don't care to debate my opinion. I will say yes, these are tough to find completely original. There are many that are more original than not though. And can be found quite easily but you're going to have to step up and pay good money for it. I also feel folks want to call anything with some brown on the coin "crusty." Starting to remind me when anything with a touch of color was/is called "Rainbow." Agreed we need to take into consideration the age of the coin and most have been boinked with. Myself, I try to find the ones that are perhaps original now. Or completely original. Yes, I'll take that nasty one that is full of old crud or black before I'll take a stripped one. >>

Hey Stman, as a follower of this series, what % of flowing hair halves do you think have been cleaned? Just wondering...Mike

stman · August 27, 2009 5:21AM

<< Hey Stman, as a follower of this series, what % of flowing hair halves do you think have been cleaned? Just wondering...Mike >>

I don't know any %. Probably most have been messed with in some way. But, like I mentioned there are plenty that are more original than not, or more original looking. I would wait for those.

123cents · August 27, 2009 5:24AM

Not a bad coin but probably net graded.

dizzyfoxx · August 27, 2009 5:47AM

Cleaning long ago with re-toning turned crusty. I like it, so did PSA, and so did CAC. Looks nice!

stman · August 27, 2009 6:06AM

<< I also feel folks want to call anything with some brown on the coin "crusty." Starting to remind me when anything with a touch of color was/is called "Rainbow." >>

<< Cleaning long ago with re-toning turned crusty. I >>

Thanks for making my point Dizzy!

Nysoto · August 27, 2009 6:15AM

I would not want the coin as a single type representative, but if it were a difficult die variety I would not mind having it. The A/E is interesting and one of the more common varieties. I currently have 21 flowing hair halves, sold a few and traded up on others. They range from crusty original to original looking to wiped to a very rare holed, cleaned, and re-toned piece. I like all of them, for different reasons.

They are hard to find complety original, and many are original looking that probably have been messed with, no one knows for sure.

dorkkarl · August 27, 2009 6:22AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< i keep seeing goofy comments like "most of them have been cleaned". this is NOT TRUE of low grade f.h. material, esp. in the ag/g/vg level. most of them XF & ABOVE have been cleaned but < f-12, you should be able to easily stick w/ original coins

do not be fooled by such wacky wrong statements. i would guess that at the au+ level, 98% of early silver has been cleaned, but below f-12, it is more like 1/3. >>

<< HUH??? why do you think i said BE PATIENT??? of course they don't fall out of trees, but if you persist, you WILL find a uncleaned example >>

First 1/3 of the low grade examples are original, and now you have to be patient to find one.

As you might say, Ken...

BWAHAHAHAHA >>

well based on simple math it seems if the ratio is 1 to every 3 is
not cleaned up.. you would have to wait triple the time to find a nicer
one.

seems to me that is the defintion of patience when it comes to buying
a coin. waiting triple the amount of time. perhaps putting it another
way you will have to wait for 3 major auctions or what have you. >>

While I disagree (strongly) with the premise that 1/3 are original, I'm with you, FC -- but its not like these are rare coins. Go to any major auction and you have multiple examples to choose from -- just take a look at the Heritage link I posed above where you will see 9 examples in the LA ANA auction alone, for example. Take care...Mike >>

if you base your assessment on auctions, you will end up wrong for sure. most of the more original coins are in collections & NOT on the mkt. also, not too sure why you do not follow my "1/3" ratio, cuz it says nothing about how many OF the 2/3 are actually for sale. 1 thing i would absolutely say w/ not hesitation is that if a collector own 10 1795 fhds of g-6 details & decides to sell 1 to free up cash, he's gonna sell the ugliest 1 first

the point is, you may have to way, but the patience is worth it. he11, you can probably go to the countryside show & find a decently original example

K S

Opinions on the grade of my new Flowing hair half? Crusty or cleaned?

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