I just finished taking the two day John Albanese CAC course at ANA about two hours ago. First, off I find John a straight shooter and a creative genius within the coin world. Not to mention the amount knowledge he has amassed at looking at a zillion coins that past 35 years doesn't hurt his street credit.
John, basically said the coin did all the talking and that, " The sticker is meaningless". (to the informed) Most knowledgeable dealers and savvy collectors know PQ coins ( A & B coins), but there are a lot of "C" coins out there that get sold as PQ coins to the uneducated and that this holds the market down. I guess this is CAC's main reason for being.
On the subject of coins awarded gold stickers- He said these are coins that are at least 1.5 points into the next grade. To date he mentioned they have stickered 200 coins with gold beans. CAC is not actively promoting/advertising the gold sticker as they don't want to diminish their green sticker since the amount of gold stickers are a tiny fraction of the population. The gold sticker is an alert to the submitter that they have an undergraded coin and don't let it go too cheap. They will continue to use the gold bean when warranted.
They will start to let collectors submit directly to them. He mentioned that a lot of dealers were not willing to submit customers coins for them ( too time consuming without a lot of financial reward? ) even though the said dealer was a CAC authorized dealer.
For novice/intermediate collectors----John said in regards to grading that the most important thing to learn is the AU58 slider. Once you master that, grading is simplified.
48% of all coins submitted are stickered. No breakdown by grading service. While a lot of submissions are cherrypicked great coins, a lot of submitters send in the kitchen sink. ( kitchen sinks do not get stickered---yet)
Personally, I've never sent in a coin to be CAC'd and probably never will.( I reserve the right to change my mind) In buying a coin I will not pay a premium for the sticker. However, I will pay a premium for the coin. I still do not like the way they look on the slab and wish they would have put the sticker on the reverse instead.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I just finished taking the two day John Albanese CAC course at ANA about two hours ago. First, off I find John a straight shooter and a creative genius within the coin world. Not to mention the amount knowledge he has amassed at looking at a zillion coins that past 35 years doesn't hurt his street credit.
John, basically said the coin did all the talking and that, " The sticker is meaningless". (to the informed) Most knowledgeable dealers and savvy collectors know PQ coins ( A & B coins), but there are a lot of "C" coins out there that get sold as PQ coins to the uneducated and that this holds the market down. I guess this is CAC's main reason for being.
On the subject of coins awarded gold stickers- He said these are coins that are at least 1.5 points into the next grade. To date he mentioned they have stickered 200 coins with gold beans. CAC is not actively promoting/advertising the gold sticker as they don't want to diminish their green sticker since the amount of gold stickers are a tiny fraction of the population. The gold sticker is an alert to the submitter that they have an undergraded coin and don't let it go too cheap. They will continue to use the gold bean when warranted.
They will start to let collectors submit directly to them. He mentioned that a lot of dealers were not willing to submit customers coins for them ( too time consuming without a lot of financial reward? ) even though the said dealer was a CAC authorized dealer.
For novice/intermediate collectors----John said in regards to grading that the most important thing to learn is the AU58 slider. Once you master that, grading is simplified.
48% of all coins submitted are stickered. No breakdown by grading service. While a lot of submissions are cherrypicked great coins, a lot of submitters send in the kitchen sink. ( kitchen sinks do not get stickered---yet)
Personally, I've never sent in a coin to be CAC'd and probably never will.( I reserve the right to change my mind) In buying a coin I will not pay a premium for the sticker. However, I will pay a premium for the coin. I still do not like the way they look on the slab and wish they would have put the sticker on the reverse instead.
It is logical collectors would seek another opinion on an expensive coin, as more assurance is more assurance. My initial complaint regarding CAC is their willingness to publish cert#'s of submitted coins and the submission outcome. When I posted that idea here, Mark Feld initially thought it reasonable, but apparently JA did not. Since there is no way of knowing whether a coin has been submitted, there is no way to challenge CAC or the selling dealer's behavior. JA's reputation is beyond reproach, and most who believe in CAC accept the service as legitimate, but with large sums at risk, I would expect transparency would be important. Apparently several people look at coins, not just JA. Does a certain coin have a better shot with one dealer than another? If a coin is submitted to CAC and fails as a 64 in an NGC holder and gets reholdered at PCGS as a 64, does it get a sticker? If both services say its a 64, is it solid for the grade? Since CAC has inserted itself into the equation as an appraiser, should collectors demand transparency? Accountability? Regulation? Maybe the coins speak for themselves, but reading Bill Jones post, apparently CAC occasionally gets it wrong. Right now, sellers who are getting larger returns think it's terrific. Maybe it is. Maybe it will be going forward.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>I have three CAC approved coins in my collection, and one that I rejected and returned because the piece had a major problem. That coin had a $12,000 + price tag on it so I was not ready to gulp Kool Aid and accept their word on it. It was 1796 half dime, I've collected that series from more than 30 years so I know something about these tiny coins.
Two of my CAC coins are better than average for the grade IMO, and I paid premiums for both. One is an 1860-O half dollar in PCGS MS-64 and the other is an 1836 Gobrecht dollar in PCGS PR-62.
The other is an 1825 quarter eagle in PCGS MS-61. That is run of the mill and not outstanding at all for the grade. But it's a rare type, and I was willing to pay that CAC freight, although not happily.
CAC is and will remain a pain in the butt so far as I'm concerned. It is not perfect, and it is not fool-proof. It's one more pair of eyes with an opinion. And given the cost of risk of shipping coins though the mail for a second grading opinion, I'll pass. >>
Whether you know this or not, CAC will buy back any coin they have stickered at generally excellent prices! This is something that many people don't know or believe. Not wholesale prices. >>
If I bought a CACd coin at say TeleTrade that I didn't care for what is the better deal? Return to TT and pay their penalty or offer it to CAC/JA?
One of the principals of CAC asserted many TPG coins were overgraded. Which ones? Why not tell the collectors who cannot make that determination themselves? Are any of those rejected coins being sold by member dealers without disclosure?
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Should member dealers be required to disclose failed submissions? Should member dealers be required to submit every coin over a certain dollar amount? Since member dealers want the market to accept CAC's judgment, shouldn't they be willing to do the same (not just for the winners)? Perhaps the best answer to these questions is that JA is a great guy.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>-- Whether you know this or not, CAC will buy back any coin they have stickered at generally excellent prices! This is something that many people don't know or believe. Not wholesale prices. --
I was under the impression that CAC (or participating CAC dealers) will buy CAC-stickered coins for which they have placed bids on dealer networks. Are you sure that they have undertaken the obligation to buy any and all CAC-stickered coins that might be offered to them (regardless of whether or not they have placed bids for those coins)?
Edited to add italics for emphasis. >>
Absolutely. CAC will buy ANY coin that has been stickered and generally at very good prices.
<< <i>-- Whether you know this or not, CAC will buy back any coin they have stickered at generally excellent prices! This is something that many people don't know or believe. Not wholesale prices. --
I was under the impression that CAC (or participating CAC dealers) will buy CAC-stickered coins for which they have placed bids on dealer networks. Are you sure that they have undertaken the obligation to buy any and all CAC-stickered coins that might be offered to them (regardless of whether or not they have placed bids for those coins)?
Edited to add italics for emphasis. >>
Absolutely. CAC will buy ANY coin that has been stickered and generally at very good prices. >>
Where are these prices published? On their web site?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
They aren't. Frankly I don;t know the procedure other than calling. I happen to talk to JA frequently on a number of levels so he's generally available.
He is not a trading post per se, but any CAC coin will get a very fair and sometimes surprisingly fairer bid than you expect. I can't say that you'll get your money back 100% because there's no telling what a dealer might have tacked on top but you'll get more form him than you will from any dealer.
For those that own it. There is a fool born every minute. >>
FYI, JA says that he does not make any money on the grading/stickering process. I have no reason to believe that he is lying; perhaps you do. >>
Then why does he charge a fee??? >>
To help offset costs, DUH. It shud be obvious to anyone then that he is not charging enough to break even or make a profit. His money is made in the market afterwards.
Those coins would of sold for much less on Ebay. I`ve seen Long Islands go for about $200. 33 D Oregons don`t trade as much but I think it would go for about $550. Then the Ebay fees...........
but also that someone who looks at coins carefully is more likely to find better values in NGC holders than in PCGS+CAC holders
True, but that value will not be realized unless you can convince the next buyer (usually a dealer) that you are right. And if you cannot do that, the next step is to try and change the holder or go for an upgrade. Getting NGC upgrades or crosses to PCGS is easier said than done. You are more apt to get downgrades or no grades unless you live in the rarified air of the top 1% of all graders.
From my 35 yr.perspective of all the grading abuses I have seen since the early 1970's..... for coins worth several hundred dollars or more I'd pay the bean fee and go with PCGS+CAC before placing my trust with a retailer. And if the dealer is that good as most claim to be, then all of their purchases should be able to crossed/upgraded and green beaned. If they can't, guess they aren't as good as they said. I've had my share of non-beaned NGC coins that I felt were solid for the grade. I even had offers over the years (pre-summer 2008) that were solid for the grade as well. But if I'm off by 0.1 to 0.2 pts on a MS65/PF65 seated half that I feel is 65.4 to 65.5 and CAC and PCGS only feel is at best 65.3 (ie a "C" coin), then that's a loser, and for a lot more than a "bean fee." The large variations in grading in bust coinage, toned type coins, and $20 gold coins are where I think the largest rejection rates for CAC would be.
The average CAC success rate may be 48% but it is skewed by those coins where variations are smaller such as in MS Morgans, white commems, etc. The success rate of MS65 saints for example is probably quite small. Probably in the 20-35% range.
To those collectors that feel 100% of their MS/PF coins are 64.5, 65.5, 66.5 or better and bat 100% at CAC, you will have joined the top 1%. I know I'm not a member after batting well below the 48% average on PCGS/NGC MS65 saints. I did get a few gold beans but those were only on no-count coins such as MS62-64 Saints and MS62-63 $20 Libs.
<< <i>Those coins would of sold for much less on Ebay. >>
"would have" or "would've" >>
You're a pesty poster, ya know? >>
"you know"
Um, Sainty, next time you call JA, could you ask him if CAC will pay Greysheet bid on all stickered classic commems? I'd really like to know. >>
The answer is NO.
Bill Jones...you know that JA went out of his way to find that coin. Who else would be so diligent and concerned? In fact, the coin ended up in the hands of a well-knowned crackout artist. The coin, acoording to JA had a small problem (and it was avery old problem) but for a 200 year old coin he felt it WAS in the top 50% for the grade. It's simply one opinion versus another at that point but had you emailed or called John he would have paid a good price. I know this.
If you have a CAC coin that you don't like, email or call John Albanese and he will buy it.. And before I get the criticism that I'm a CAC hack know this; I support CAC because I think they are honest, sharp and know their stuff. I get nothing but satisfaction of seeing many distinctive coins being credited as such. Do I need CAC to tell me a coin is good.....YEAH...because I can't detect putty! I can see everything else there is to see but a good putty job is beyond my best day of viewing. Other than that I have submitted my box-o-twenty and ALL of them stickered so I guess my eye and my luck of just not handling a puttied coin was a great stroke of coincidence. Man yhere have seen my coins and I think they will agree that they are indeed worthy of any kind of PQ designation, whether a green bean or a pat on the back.
As for the "profits" of CAC you folks are greatly over-estimating the potential. When JA started out he was willing to go a few years at a small loss or break-even. This will never make him a richer man and franky he's one of the more successful dealers ever, so he actually doesn't need the enterprise. He works tighter than any dealer I know. Do you know of a dealer who will flip a coin for 3-5%? That's all he looks for. His philosophy has always been that he'd take 10 singles over 3 home runs anyday. And hitting singles everyday makes you wealthy and wise.
<< <i> Do I need CAC to tell me a coin is good.....YEAH...because I can't detect putty! I can see everything else there is to see but a good putty job is beyond my best day of viewing. >>
At least I'm in good company. ...Mike (who has been fooled by a putty job )
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
I can grade my series with the best of them - other series pretty well too as evidenced by my first and second place finishes in the World Series of Grading. But I cannot detect much of what the coin doctors are capable of these days. Frankly, neither can 90% of the people on this chatroom.
<< <i>I can grade my series with the best of them - other series pretty well too as evidenced by my first and second place finishes in the World Series of Grading. But I cannot detect much of what the coin doctors are capable of these days. Frankly, neither can 90% of the people on this chatroom. >>
Thank heaven that there is ONE individual who is expert in EVERY area of EVERY series, and thank heaven that this ONE individual examines EVERY coin, and he does it for ZERO profit! Maybe we should build a religion around this guy! Does he ever sleep?
Don't mind my sarcasm, I'm still a COLLECTOR, so I don't give much thought to a few dollars profit I could make by selling to a believer in the almighty bean. Does surprise me though, that most of the people on this forum react as investors. Most on this forum attack NGC, and put PCGS on a pedestal, but then say that they need CAC, because (apparently) they have no faith in PCGS??? Again, I'm just a collector, more power to you investors if you can find someone to pay extra for a sticker. No matter how you distort it, the coin is what it is. The little sticker just says that another individual agrees with the TPG. As a collector (it is a HOBBY after all), I am the other individual that agrees with the TPG, and I don't like cheap looking little stickers. If I did, I guess I could stick one on there myself....
<<< Thank heaven that there is ONE individual who is expert in EVERY area of EVERY series, and thank heaven that this ONE individual examines EVERY coin, and he does it for ZERO profit! Maybe we should build a religion around this guy! Does he ever sleep?
Don't mind my sarcasm, I'm still a COLLECTOR, so I don't give much thought to a few dollars profit I could make by selling to a believer in the almighty bean. Does surprise me though, that most of the people on this forum react as investors. Most on this forum attack NGC, and put PCGS on a pedestal, but then say that they need CAC, because (apparently) they have no faith in PCGS??? >>>
a) John Albanese has done too many positive things for the hobby/industry to mention in one post. He is also regarded as a top notch grader and all around good guy. Directing sarcastic remarks towards him shows ignorance IMO.
b) It's not only 'investors' that send coins to CAC or look to buy CAC stickered coins, but many serious collectors too. In fact, if anything, I'd say CAC is more geared with the serious collector in mind vs. coin investors.
c) People do not send coins to CAC because they have no faith in PCGS, not by a longshot.
So what does this tell you about different TPG's and beans?
It tells me beans about the TPG's.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
<< <i>This tells me that PCGS graded coins may have a higher margin of profit. You taught me a lot, JB. And JA is teaching the world a thing or two, too. As for the sticker... it's my opinion that it would serve the proprietors better if it were placed on the rear of the slab. Just a humble opinion. >>
Reminds me of the Jefferson nickels I collect. For years when searching for the full steppers, whenever I'd see a slabbed coin in a dealers case, I and I guess everyone else who would want to know, would ask to see the coin to check the steps. This likely became a nuisance with dealers until I came across one dealer who had all his slabbed Jefferson nickels displayed with the reverse side up.
Ah sir, can I see if that coin has a CAC sticker on the reverse?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i><<< Thank heaven that there is ONE individual who is expert in EVERY area of EVERY series, and thank heaven that this ONE individual examines EVERY coin, and he does it for ZERO profit! Maybe we should build a religion around this guy! Does he ever sleep?
Don't mind my sarcasm, I'm still a COLLECTOR, so I don't give much thought to a few dollars profit I could make by selling to a believer in the almighty bean. Does surprise me though, that most of the people on this forum react as investors. Most on this forum attack NGC, and put PCGS on a pedestal, but then say that they need CAC, because (apparently) they have no faith in PCGS??? >>>
a) John Albanese has done too many positive things for the hobby/industry to mention in one post. He is also regarded as a top notch grader and all around good guy. Directing sarcastic remarks towards him shows ignorance IMO.
b) It's not only 'investors' that send coins to CAC or look to buy CAC stickered coins, but many serious collectors too. In fact, if anything, I'd say CAC is more geared with the serious collector in mind vs. coin investors.
c) People do not send coins to CAC because they have no faith in PCGS, not by a longshot. >>
a) Believing that he is the final word in all series is ignorant IMO. Believing that he personally examines every coin is ignorant IMO. Believing the little beans give him no profit is ignorant IMO.
b) I think there is a good chance that serious(?) collectors collect what THEY like, not little stickers.
c) If they had faith in the TPG, why would they need a sticker????
And, yes, I may be IGNORANT, but I'm certainly not GULLIBLE....
I think there is a good chance that serious(?) collectors collect what THEY like, not little stickers.
I'm a serious collector and I collect what I like - what I like are original unmessed with coins. Sadly, I can't always tell if that's the case. While no one is an expert in every series, one CAN be an expert in detecting messed with coins. And believe it or not, it's rather easy to apply grading techniques across series. Once you know how to grade and you've seen literally millions of coins, you can definitely put your money where your mouth is... and that's what JA is doing.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
Without images of the coins, it really is incomplete in terms of conclusions. Also, it is not an adequate sampling to draw any meaninful conclusions... If any of the Editors of the Literary Digest are still around, ask them aboit there polling sampling in 1936 which lead to their prediction that Alfred Landon would defeat Franklin Roosevelt. Well, we know how that turned out.
If one is prepared to part with 10,000-12,000 on a common date condition rarity, then CAC makes good sense.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
1. I finally like beans BUT 2. If JA is so smart why can he not turn a profit at 10 bucks a coin when all he has to apply is a cheap sticker, TPG's do the hard part in cost and package
3. If CAC is to be the savior of the coin hobby, for all the good the mags and such should help promote CAC since it is not about the money and all for the collector.
JA needs to work on controlling his expenses
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Since the matter was raised, John Albanese is one of the shining stars in numismatics. He doesn't need the money. He doesn't need any more recognition. Not only is he very good at what he does, but he's humble and approachable. I've contacted him by e-mail and spoken with him over the phone.
You may say what you like about CAC, but trust me on this; he started CAC because he thought this concept was needed in numismatics. Whether or not you seek out 'beaned' coins and / or willing to pay a premium for them, is up to you.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Since the matter was raised, John Albanese is one of the shining stars in numismatics. He doesn't need the money. He doesn't need any more recognition. Not only is he very good at what he does, but he's humble and approachable. I've contacted him by e-mail and spoken with him over the phone.
You may say what you like about CAC, but trust me on this; he started CAC because he thought this concept was needed in numismatics. Whether or not you seek out 'beaned' coins and / or willing to pay a premium for them, is up to you. >>
Those calling CAC a scam, or accusing JA of just being in it for the money, simply expose their own ignorance. JA could make much more elsewhere but believes in giving back to the hobby.
Comments
I thought you gave up on these boards. If you want a pat on the back, just write a pm to TDN. I am paying him weekly to compliment you.
John, basically said the coin did all the talking and that, " The sticker is meaningless". (to the informed) Most knowledgeable dealers and savvy collectors know PQ coins ( A & B coins), but there are a lot of "C" coins out there that get sold as PQ coins to the uneducated and that this holds the market down. I guess this is CAC's main reason for being.
On the subject of coins awarded gold stickers- He said these are coins that are at least 1.5 points into the next grade. To date he mentioned they have stickered 200 coins with gold beans. CAC is not actively promoting/advertising the gold sticker as they don't want to diminish their green sticker since the amount of gold stickers are a tiny fraction of the population. The gold sticker is an alert to the submitter that they have an undergraded coin and don't let it go too cheap. They will continue to use the gold bean when warranted.
They will start to let collectors submit directly to them. He mentioned that a lot of dealers were not willing to submit customers coins for them ( too time consuming without a lot of financial reward? ) even though the said dealer was a CAC authorized dealer.
For novice/intermediate collectors----John said in regards to grading that the most important thing to learn is the AU58 slider. Once you master that, grading is simplified.
48% of all coins submitted are stickered. No breakdown by grading service. While a lot of submissions are cherrypicked great coins, a lot of submitters send in the kitchen sink. ( kitchen sinks do not get stickered---yet)
Personally, I've never sent in a coin to be CAC'd and probably never will.( I reserve the right to change my mind) In buying a coin I will not pay a premium for the sticker. However, I will pay a premium for the coin. I still do not like the way they look on the slab and wish they would have put the sticker on the reverse instead.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
but I at least can speak for myself. I have found, in general, that CAC
coins are better looking then many non CAC coins. Thus, I have sent my
A box of type coins in for CAC review. While I feel that a number of my
coins are under graded, they will probably meet the 1.4 point undergrading
standards required for a gold sticker. Other then that , I expect 100% of
my coins to win the green bean.
Camelot
<< <i>I just finished taking the two day John Albanese CAC course at ANA about two hours ago. First, off I find John a straight shooter and a creative genius within the coin world. Not to mention the amount knowledge he has amassed at looking at a zillion coins that past 35 years doesn't hurt his street credit.
John, basically said the coin did all the talking and that, " The sticker is meaningless". (to the informed) Most knowledgeable dealers and savvy collectors know PQ coins ( A & B coins), but there are a lot of "C" coins out there that get sold as PQ coins to the uneducated and that this holds the market down. I guess this is CAC's main reason for being.
On the subject of coins awarded gold stickers- He said these are coins that are at least 1.5 points into the next grade. To date he mentioned they have stickered 200 coins with gold beans. CAC is not actively promoting/advertising the gold sticker as they don't want to diminish their green sticker since the amount of gold stickers are a tiny fraction of the population. The gold sticker is an alert to the submitter that they have an undergraded coin and don't let it go too cheap. They will continue to use the gold bean when warranted.
They will start to let collectors submit directly to them. He mentioned that a lot of dealers were not willing to submit customers coins for them ( too time consuming without a lot of financial reward? ) even though the said dealer was a CAC authorized dealer.
For novice/intermediate collectors----John said in regards to grading that the most important thing to learn is the AU58 slider. Once you master that, grading is simplified.
48% of all coins submitted are stickered. No breakdown by grading service. While a lot of submissions are cherrypicked great coins, a lot of submitters send in the kitchen sink. ( kitchen sinks do not get stickered---yet)
Personally, I've never sent in a coin to be CAC'd and probably never will.( I reserve the right to change my mind) In buying a coin I will not pay a premium for the sticker. However, I will pay a premium for the coin. I still do not like the way they look on the slab and wish they would have put the sticker on the reverse instead.
MJ >>
Good post!
Thanks for taking the time to post it!
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>
<< <i>I have three CAC approved coins in my collection, and one that I rejected and returned because the piece had a major problem. That coin had a $12,000 + price tag on it so I was not ready to gulp Kool Aid and accept their word on it. It was 1796 half dime, I've collected that series from more than 30 years so I know something about these tiny coins.
Two of my CAC coins are better than average for the grade IMO, and I paid premiums for both. One is an 1860-O half dollar in PCGS MS-64 and the other is an 1836 Gobrecht dollar in PCGS PR-62.
The other is an 1825 quarter eagle in PCGS MS-61. That is run of the mill and not outstanding at all for the grade. But it's a rare type, and I was willing to pay that CAC freight, although not happily.
CAC is and will remain a pain in the butt so far as I'm concerned. It is not perfect, and it is not fool-proof. It's one more pair of eyes with an opinion. And given the cost of risk of shipping coins though the mail for a second grading opinion, I'll pass. >>
Whether you know this or not, CAC will buy back any coin they have stickered at generally excellent prices! This is something that many people don't know or believe. Not wholesale prices. >>
If I bought a CACd coin at say TeleTrade that I didn't care for what is the better deal? Return to TT and pay their penalty or offer it to CAC/JA?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
For those that own it. There is a fool born every minute.
<< <i>CAC sure is a money maker.
For those that own it. There is a fool born every minute.
FYI, JA says that he does not make any money on the grading/stickering process. I have no reason to believe that he is lying; perhaps you do.
<< <i>
<< <i>CAC sure is a money maker.
For those that own it. There is a fool born every minute.
FYI, JA says that he does not make any money on the grading/stickering process. I have no reason to believe that he is lying; perhaps you do. >>
Then why does he charge a fee???
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>CAC sure is a money maker.
For those that own it. There is a fool born every minute.
FYI, JA says that he does not make any money on the grading/stickering process. I have no reason to believe that he is lying; perhaps you do. >>
Then why does he charge a fee??? >>
So he can lose money.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>CAC sure is a money maker.
For those that own it. There is a fool born every minute.
FYI, JA says that he does not make any money on the grading/stickering process. I have no reason to believe that he is lying; perhaps you do. >>
Then why does he charge a fee??? >>
So he can lose money.
<< <i>-- Whether you know this or not, CAC will buy back any coin they have stickered at generally excellent prices! This is something that many people don't know or believe. Not wholesale prices. --
I was under the impression that CAC (or participating CAC dealers) will buy CAC-stickered coins for which they have placed bids on dealer networks. Are you sure that they have undertaken the obligation to buy any and all CAC-stickered coins that might be offered to them (regardless of whether or not they have placed bids for those coins)?
Edited to add italics for emphasis. >>
Absolutely. CAC will buy ANY coin that has been stickered and generally at very good prices.
and then did a completed auctions
roughly 20% sold - owners think highly of their CAC coins
<< <i>
<< <i>-- Whether you know this or not, CAC will buy back any coin they have stickered at generally excellent prices! This is something that many people don't know or believe. Not wholesale prices. --
I was under the impression that CAC (or participating CAC dealers) will buy CAC-stickered coins for which they have placed bids on dealer networks. Are you sure that they have undertaken the obligation to buy any and all CAC-stickered coins that might be offered to them (regardless of whether or not they have placed bids for those coins)?
Edited to add italics for emphasis. >>
Absolutely. CAC will buy ANY coin that has been stickered and generally at very good prices. >>
Where are these prices published? On their web site?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
He is not a trading post per se, but any CAC coin will get a very fair and sometimes surprisingly fairer bid than you expect. I can't say that you'll get your money back 100% because there's no telling what a dealer might have tacked on top but you'll get more form him than you will from any dealer.
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<< <i>
<< <i>CAC sure is a money maker.
For those that own it. There is a fool born every minute.
FYI, JA says that he does not make any money on the grading/stickering process. I have no reason to believe that he is lying; perhaps you do. >>
Then why does he charge a fee??? >>
To help offset costs, DUH. It shud be obvious to anyone then that he is not charging enough to break even or make a profit. His money is made in the market afterwards.
<< <i>Absolutely. CAC will buy ANY coin that has been stickered and generally at very good prices. >>
I'll buy ANY coin (stickered or not) for generally a little less than I know I can sell it for. BFD.
Edit: My point is that the market dictates what CAC will pay for your coin at any given time.
Edit: My point is that the market dictates what CAC will pay for your coin at any given time. >>>
The real point is that CAC stands behind their opinions with typically above average AND sight unseen cash offers.
<< <i>I have found CAC to pay well above average prices on sight unseen CAC stickered coins. >>
What kind of coins? What kind of prices? I'd be interested in some specific transactions.
<< <i>I sold them a 1933 D Oregon Trail PCGS 66 for $650 and a Long Island NGC 65 for $260. >>
OK, thanks. When?
<< <i>Those are fair prices. Current Greysheet Bid on those two commems is $640 and $250, respectively. >>
I would agree.
<< <i>Those coins would of sold for much less on Ebay. >>
"would have" or "would've"
True, but that value will not be realized unless you can convince the next buyer (usually a dealer) that you are right. And if you cannot do that, the next step is to try and change the holder or go for an upgrade. Getting NGC upgrades or crosses to PCGS is easier said than done. You are more apt to get downgrades or no grades unless you live in the rarified air of the top 1% of all graders.
From my 35 yr.perspective of all the grading abuses I have seen since the early 1970's..... for coins worth several hundred dollars or more I'd pay the bean fee and go with PCGS+CAC before placing my trust with a retailer. And if the dealer is that good as most claim to be, then all of their purchases should be able to crossed/upgraded and green beaned. If they can't, guess they aren't as good as they said. I've had my share of non-beaned NGC coins that I felt were solid for the grade. I even had offers over the years (pre-summer 2008) that were solid for the grade as well. But if I'm off by 0.1 to 0.2 pts on a MS65/PF65 seated half that I feel is 65.4 to 65.5 and CAC and PCGS only feel is at best 65.3 (ie a "C" coin), then that's a loser, and for a lot more than a "bean fee." The large variations in grading in bust coinage, toned type coins, and $20 gold coins are where I think the largest rejection rates for CAC would be.
The average CAC success rate may be 48% but it is skewed by those coins where variations are smaller such as in MS Morgans, white commems, etc. The success rate of MS65 saints for example is probably quite small. Probably in the 20-35% range.
To those collectors that feel 100% of their MS/PF coins are 64.5, 65.5, 66.5 or better and bat 100% at CAC, you will have joined the top 1%. I know I'm not a member after batting well below the 48% average on PCGS/NGC MS65 saints. I did get a few gold beans but those were only on no-count coins such as MS62-64 Saints and MS62-63 $20 Libs.
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>Those coins would of sold for much less on Ebay. >>
"would have" or "would've" >>
You're a pesty poster, ya know?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Those coins would of sold for much less on Ebay. >>
"would have" or "would've" >>
You're a pesty poster, ya know?
"you know"
Um, Sainty, next time you call JA, could you ask him if CAC will pay Greysheet bid on all stickered classic commems? I'd
really like to know.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Those coins would of sold for much less on Ebay. >>
"would have" or "would've" >>
You're a pesty poster, ya know?
"you know"
Um, Sainty, next time you call JA, could you ask him if CAC will pay Greysheet bid on all stickered classic commems? I'd
really like to know. >>
The answer is NO.
Bill Jones...you know that JA went out of his way to find that coin. Who else would be so diligent and concerned? In fact, the coin ended up in the hands of a well-knowned crackout artist. The coin, acoording to JA had a small problem (and it was avery old problem) but for a 200 year old coin he felt it WAS in the top 50% for the grade. It's simply one opinion versus another at that point but had you emailed or called John he would have paid a good price. I know this.
If you have a CAC coin that you don't like, email or call John Albanese and he will buy it.. And before I get the criticism that I'm a CAC hack know this; I support CAC because I think they are honest, sharp and know their stuff. I get nothing but satisfaction of seeing many distinctive coins being credited as such. Do I need CAC to tell me a coin is good.....YEAH...because I can't detect putty! I can see everything else there is to see but a good putty job is beyond my best day of viewing. Other than that I have submitted my box-o-twenty and ALL of them stickered so I guess my eye and my luck of just not handling a puttied coin was a great stroke of coincidence. Man yhere have seen my coins and I think they will agree that they are indeed worthy of any kind of PQ designation, whether a green bean or a pat on the back.
As for the "profits" of CAC you folks are greatly over-estimating the potential. When JA started out he was willing to go a few years at a small loss or break-even. This will never make him a richer man and franky he's one of the more successful dealers ever, so he actually doesn't need the enterprise. He works tighter than any dealer I know. Do you know of a dealer who will flip a coin for 3-5%? That's all he looks for. His philosophy has always been that he'd take 10 singles over 3 home runs anyday. And hitting singles everyday makes you wealthy and wise.
<< <i> Do I need CAC to tell me a coin is good.....YEAH...because I can't detect putty! I can see everything else there is to see but a good putty job is beyond my best day of viewing. >>
At least I'm in good company.
<< <i>I can grade my series with the best of them - other series pretty well too as evidenced by my first and second place finishes in the World Series of Grading. But I cannot detect much of what the coin doctors are capable of these days. Frankly, neither can 90% of the people on this chatroom. >>
Thank heaven that there is ONE individual who is expert in EVERY area of EVERY series, and thank heaven that this ONE individual examines EVERY coin, and he does it for ZERO profit! Maybe we should build a religion around this guy! Does he ever sleep?
Don't mind my sarcasm, I'm still a COLLECTOR, so I don't give much thought to a few dollars profit I could make by selling to a believer in the almighty bean. Does surprise me though, that most of the people on this forum react as investors. Most on this forum attack NGC, and put PCGS on a pedestal, but then say that they need CAC, because (apparently) they have no faith in PCGS??? Again, I'm just a collector, more power to you investors if you can find someone to pay extra for a sticker. No matter how you distort it, the coin is what it is. The little sticker just says that another individual agrees with the TPG. As a collector (it is a HOBBY after all), I am the other individual that agrees with the TPG, and I don't like cheap looking little stickers. If I did, I guess I could stick one on there myself....
Don't mind my sarcasm, I'm still a COLLECTOR, so I don't give much thought to a few dollars profit I could make by selling to a believer in the almighty bean. Does surprise me though, that most of the people on this forum react as investors. Most on this forum attack NGC, and put PCGS on a pedestal, but then say that they need CAC, because (apparently) they have no faith in PCGS??? >>>
a) John Albanese has done too many positive things for the hobby/industry to mention in one post. He is also regarded as a top notch grader and all around good guy. Directing sarcastic remarks towards him shows ignorance IMO.
b) It's not only 'investors' that send coins to CAC or look to buy CAC stickered coins, but many serious collectors too. In fact, if anything, I'd say CAC is more geared with the serious collector in mind vs. coin investors.
c) People do not send coins to CAC because they have no faith in PCGS, not by a longshot.
It tells me beans about the TPG's.
<< <i>This tells me that PCGS graded coins may have a higher margin of profit. You taught me a lot, JB. And JA is teaching the world a thing or two, too.
As for the sticker... it's my opinion that it would serve the proprietors better if it were placed on the rear of the slab. Just a humble opinion. >>
Reminds me of the Jefferson nickels I collect. For years when searching for the full steppers, whenever I'd see a slabbed coin in a dealers case, I and I guess everyone else who would want to know, would ask to see the coin to check the steps. This likely became a nuisance with dealers until I came across one dealer who had all his slabbed Jefferson nickels displayed with the reverse side up.
Ah sir, can I see if that coin has a CAC sticker on the reverse?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i><<< Thank heaven that there is ONE individual who is expert in EVERY area of EVERY series, and thank heaven that this ONE individual examines EVERY coin, and he does it for ZERO profit! Maybe we should build a religion around this guy! Does he ever sleep?
Don't mind my sarcasm, I'm still a COLLECTOR, so I don't give much thought to a few dollars profit I could make by selling to a believer in the almighty bean. Does surprise me though, that most of the people on this forum react as investors. Most on this forum attack NGC, and put PCGS on a pedestal, but then say that they need CAC, because (apparently) they have no faith in PCGS??? >>>
a) John Albanese has done too many positive things for the hobby/industry to mention in one post. He is also regarded as a top notch grader and all around good guy. Directing sarcastic remarks towards him shows ignorance IMO.
b) It's not only 'investors' that send coins to CAC or look to buy CAC stickered coins, but many serious collectors too. In fact, if anything, I'd say CAC is more geared with the serious collector in mind vs. coin investors.
c) People do not send coins to CAC because they have no faith in PCGS, not by a longshot. >>
a) Believing that he is the final word in all series is ignorant IMO. Believing that he personally examines every coin is ignorant IMO. Believing the little beans give him no profit is ignorant IMO.
b) I think there is a good chance that serious(?) collectors collect what THEY like, not little stickers.
c) If they had faith in the TPG, why would they need a sticker????
And, yes, I may be IGNORANT, but I'm certainly not GULLIBLE....
I'm a serious collector and I collect what I like - what I like are original unmessed with coins. Sadly, I can't always tell if that's the case. While no one is an expert in every series, one CAN be an expert in detecting messed with coins. And believe it or not, it's rather easy to apply grading techniques across series. Once you know how to grade and you've seen literally millions of coins, you can definitely put your money where your mouth is... and that's what JA is doing.
If one is prepared to part with 10,000-12,000 on a common date condition rarity, then CAC makes good sense.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
2. If JA is so smart why can he not turn a profit at 10 bucks a coin when all he has to apply is a cheap sticker, TPG's do the hard part in cost and package
3. If CAC is to be the savior of the coin hobby, for all the good the mags and such should help promote CAC since it is not about the money and all for the collector.
JA needs to work on controlling his expenses
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
You may say what you like about CAC, but trust me on this; he started CAC because he thought this concept was needed in numismatics. Whether or not you seek out 'beaned' coins and / or willing to pay a premium for them, is up to you.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
a few times, does that count?
Camelot
<< <i>I have eaten weenie beenie
a few times, does that count? >>
No!
<< <i>Since the matter was raised, John Albanese is one of the shining stars in numismatics. He doesn't need the money. He doesn't need any more recognition. Not only is he very good at what he does, but he's humble and approachable. I've contacted him by e-mail and spoken with him over the phone.
You may say what you like about CAC, but trust me on this; he started CAC because he thought this concept was needed in numismatics. Whether or not you seek out 'beaned' coins and / or willing to pay a premium for them, is up to you. >>
Those calling CAC a scam, or accusing JA of just being in it for the money, simply expose their own ignorance. JA could make much more elsewhere but believes in giving back to the hobby.