<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point? Someone earlier mentioned that the CAC "is not perfect, mistakes can be made". Then again, what's the point? Are two mistakes better than one? One more thing... a "bean" does NOT change the coin that is in the slab, so if someone pays a premium for the "bean", anyone in the know would pay a premium for that coin anyway! If the coin has a "bean", but is not very eye appealing, only a fool would pay a premium! Anyway, if you like the bean, buy the bean. If you don't like the bean, buy the COIN, and you can probably find a way to remove that little sticker. It's also refreshing to learn that there are still people in this world who would lose money just to help us poor, uneducated collectors. I may have to send my coins in to the CAC, just so I can find out if they are really nice, or not. If they get a bean, I'm a good collector, if not, I guess I find eye appeal in junk! I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC. Don't take any offense, and don't take me seriously, I'm just trying to think for myself again.... and LOGIC ain't workin' >>
What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans....
<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point? Someone earlier mentioned that the CAC "is not perfect, mistakes can be made". Then again, what's the point? Are two mistakes better than one? One more thing... a "bean" does NOT change the coin that is in the slab, so if someone pays a premium for the "bean", anyone in the know would pay a premium for that coin anyway! If the coin has a "bean", but is not very eye appealing, only a fool would pay a premium! Anyway, if you like the bean, buy the bean. If you don't like the bean, buy the COIN, and you can probably find a way to remove that little sticker. It's also refreshing to learn that there are still people in this world who would lose money just to help us poor, uneducated collectors. I may have to send my coins in to the CAC, just so I can find out if they are really nice, or not. If they get a bean, I'm a good collector, if not, I guess I find eye appeal in junk! I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC. Don't take any offense, and don't take me seriously, I'm just trying to think for myself again.... and LOGIC ain't workin' >>
What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans.... >>
Not necessarily...what if 90% of the coins on the market are NGC-graded and 10% PCGS?
<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point? Someone earlier mentioned that the CAC "is not perfect, mistakes can be made". Then again, what's the point? Are two mistakes better than one? One more thing... a "bean" does NOT change the coin that is in the slab, so if someone pays a premium for the "bean", anyone in the know would pay a premium for that coin anyway! If the coin has a "bean", but is not very eye appealing, only a fool would pay a premium! Anyway, if you like the bean, buy the bean. If you don't like the bean, buy the COIN, and you can probably find a way to remove that little sticker. It's also refreshing to learn that there are still people in this world who would lose money just to help us poor, uneducated collectors. I may have to send my coins in to the CAC, just so I can find out if they are really nice, or not. If they get a bean, I'm a good collector, if not, I guess I find eye appeal in junk! I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC. Don't take any offense, and don't take me seriously, I'm just trying to think for myself again.... and LOGIC ain't workin' >>
What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans.... >>
Not necessarily...what if 90% of the coins on the market are NGC-graded and 10% PCGS? >>
Just curious...out of what magic hat did you pull those numbers out of?
might as well have asked "and what if the moon really is made out of cheese?"
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point? Someone earlier mentioned that the CAC "is not perfect, mistakes can be made". Then again, what's the point? Are two mistakes better than one? One more thing... a "bean" does NOT change the coin that is in the slab, so if someone pays a premium for the "bean", anyone in the know would pay a premium for that coin anyway! If the coin has a "bean", but is not very eye appealing, only a fool would pay a premium! Anyway, if you like the bean, buy the bean. If you don't like the bean, buy the COIN, and you can probably find a way to remove that little sticker. It's also refreshing to learn that there are still people in this world who would lose money just to help us poor, uneducated collectors. I may have to send my coins in to the CAC, just so I can find out if they are really nice, or not. If they get a bean, I'm a good collector, if not, I guess I find eye appeal in junk! I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC. Don't take any offense, and don't take me seriously, I'm just trying to think for myself again.... and LOGIC ain't workin' >>
What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans.... >>
Not necessarily...what if 90% of the coins on the market are NGC-graded and 10% PCGS? >>
Just curious...out of what magic hat did you pull those numbers out of?
might as well have asked "and what if the moon really is made out of cheese?" >>
Hypothetical, but the significance of the "fact" that 40% of CAC-stickered coins are NGC depends a lot on what percentage of the coins submitted to the CAC are NGC coins vs. PCGS. Maybe you were tripping on acid on the day that they taught tough concepts like that in high school statistics.
<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point? Someone earlier mentioned that the CAC "is not perfect, mistakes can be made". Then again, what's the point? Are two mistakes better than one? One more thing... a "bean" does NOT change the coin that is in the slab, so if someone pays a premium for the "bean", anyone in the know would pay a premium for that coin anyway! If the coin has a "bean", but is not very eye appealing, only a fool would pay a premium! Anyway, if you like the bean, buy the bean. If you don't like the bean, buy the COIN, and you can probably find a way to remove that little sticker. It's also refreshing to learn that there are still people in this world who would lose money just to help us poor, uneducated collectors. I may have to send my coins in to the CAC, just so I can find out if they are really nice, or not. If they get a bean, I'm a good collector, if not, I guess I find eye appeal in junk! I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC. Don't take any offense, and don't take me seriously, I'm just trying to think for myself again.... and LOGIC ain't workin' >>
What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans.... >>
Not necessarily...what if 90% of the coins on the market are NGC-graded and 10% PCGS? >>
Just curious...out of what magic hat did you pull those numbers out of?
might as well have asked "and what if the moon really is made out of cheese?" >>
Hypothetical, but the significance of the "fact" that 40% of CAC-stickered coins are NGC depends a lot on what percentage of the coins submitted to the CAC are NGC coins vs. PCGS. Maybe you were tripping on acid on the day that they taught tough concepts like that in high school statistics. >>
<< <i>What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans.... >>
I am no Kool-aid drinker or CAC cheerleader but there is not enough data to support your point. The most likely choice is none of the above. The percentages probably result from the fact that dealers are only submitting the most likely candidates. Unlike submitting to a TPG where you are accepting whatever comes your way, submitting to CAC has a much more defined objective.
I have not submitted any of my coins to CAC and most likely won't until I decide to sell, and that is not in the plans. But I have already identified the coins to be submitted. I have coins that I know won't make it because they are maxed out. That doesn't mean they are lousy coins. After all, I was the one who was lucky enough to get some of them in the maxed holder. And as such it would be a waste of time and money to submit them to CAC. So because of my pre-screening I suspect my results will be even better than the percentages to date, and I have no reason to believe my NGC coins will not sticker at the same rate as my PCGS coins.
Great thread. How can anyone not "like" this place ? Though, it's easy to understand why three hundred million, five hundred eighty-two thousand , and twenty four other people may fear posting their opinions here.
<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point? Someone earlier mentioned that the CAC "is not perfect, mistakes can be made". Then again, what's the point? Are two mistakes better than one? One more thing... a "bean" does NOT change the coin that is in the slab, so if someone pays a premium for the "bean", anyone in the know would pay a premium for that coin anyway! If the coin has a "bean", but is not very eye appealing, only a fool would pay a premium! Anyway, if you like the bean, buy the bean. If you don't like the bean, buy the COIN, and you can probably find a way to remove that little sticker. It's also refreshing to learn that there are still people in this world who would lose money just to help us poor, uneducated collectors. I may have to send my coins in to the CAC, just so I can find out if they are really nice, or not. If they get a bean, I'm a good collector, if not, I guess I find eye appeal in junk! I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC. Don't take any offense, and don't take me seriously, I'm just trying to think for myself again.... and LOGIC ain't workin' >>
What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans.... >>
Not necessarily...what if 90% of the coins on the market are NGC-graded and 10% PCGS? >>
Just curious...out of what magic hat did you pull those numbers out of?
might as well have asked "and what if the moon really is made out of cheese?" >>
Hypothetical, but the significance of the "fact" that 40% of CAC-stickered coins are NGC depends a lot on what percentage of the coins submitted to the CAC are NGC coins vs. PCGS. Maybe you were tripping on acid on the day that they taught tough concepts like that in high school statistics. >>
Actually... I was a math honor student...one of my scholastic strong points...
And I attribute my very open, patient and flexible mental attitide to all those "journeys" I took over the years...
I have no issue with hypothetical analysis... just helps a bit to keep the hypothetical stats within some modicum of reasonableness...ya know?
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<<The percentages probably result from the fact that dealers are only submitting the most likely candidates>>
They are skewed somewhat. JA has gone on record saying that he get's cherrypicked submissions as well as "kitchensink" submissions by dealers on the hope an odd coin or two get's through. Others maybe framing or setting up coins in their submissions. If "B" coins get slabbed it maybe ok to send maxed out coins in if CAC is your thing. J A also said they have good days and bad days in the CAC grading room in regards stickering coins based on mood and state of mind. It's the human element you just can't get away from. Subjective and objective are not mutally exclusive in this case..............MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I am really thrilled that someof you heard John speak. I have always said that to nderstand CAC you must meet the man behind it. I was very skeptical when a certain dealer was heralding a "new revolution" while tearing down the TPG's. Than John and I met at a show and after 30 minutes I realized that I had met one of the most honest and intelligent people in the business. I believed in his concept after that.
<< <i>It doesn't tell me a damned thing other than folks are willing to pay extra money for that stupid sticker.
Its either an MS67 or it ain't and you either need it and want it or you don't. >>
I believe that comment is both untrue and also quite naive, especially at the MS67 grade level. For those who think that an MS67 saint is an MS67 saint, or an MS67 morgan is an MS67 morgan and they're pretty much all the same, or that CAC'd coins at the MS67 level are no different then you would be well advised to make all your purchases sight unseen from Teletrade and Ebay. >>
Did you really miss the part about "Its either an MS67 or it ain't" ?
Just curious.
Perhaps I should have worded it "YOU either believe its an MS67 or you don't" ?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>It doesn't tell me a damned thing other than folks are willing to pay extra money for that stupid sticker. >>
>>
And yet if that's the only conclusion that can be drawn, it still says it all doesn't it? >>
That it does.
CAC is a reality and there's no getting away from it. You either like it or you don't. Since CAC won't CAC Eisenhowers, I really should not even throw my hat in the ring. But I did as I do have an opinion should I ever decide to cross over into the "classics".
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>It doesn't tell me a damned thing other than folks are willing to pay extra money for that stupid sticker.
Its either an MS67 or it ain't and you either need it and want it or you don't. >>
So all coins that grade the same are worth the same? I wouldn't expect such an opinion from an experienced numismatist such as yourself. >>
I did not say that Mike! I said you either want it or you don't.
For sure not all MS67's are equal and its up to the collector/numismatist to determine how much he/she is willing to pay for a specific grade. If the amount you pay for a coin is based solely on someone elses opinion, whether its the TPG graders, your local coin dealer, or your best friend, you might end up very surprised! As each of those individuals is simply offering an opinion but the ultimate decision and amount belongs to the purchaser.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Its either an MS67 or it ain't and you either need it and want it or you don't. >>
If its THAT black and white, why are so many coins misgraded or uncrossable amongst the major TPGs? >>
Different Graders!
Different TPG's!
Different Standards!
Different Days!
And CAC is certainly no different.........
Although my experience with crossovers is limited, I did cross an MS65 hoping for an MS66 which came back as an MS64. I cracked that sucker out and resubmitted for the original MS65 grade because it definitely was NOT an MS64. The only conclusion I could draw was company predjudice over the grade. They graded it that and we all know they are a bunch of idiots so lets find a reason to knock it down a point! Better yet, lets just knock it down a point.
There have been numerous occasions where a CACed NGC coin (meaning good for the grade) did NOT cross over at PCGS. If CAC was so danged accurate and so necessary, why not might I ask? It was after all, good for the grade? Or was it?
Now if folks want to pay more for JA's opinion on a coin then thats their business but I simply do not see the need since the TPG has already rendered their opinions. If a buyer or submitter does not trust the opinion of a TPG and really feels the need for yet a second opinion, then why submit them in the first place?
Perhaps if CAC got out of the "validation" phase and moved into actually GRADING coins as a viable TPG, then folks would view them a little differently. But thats not the case.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
He talks common sense which, being common, I understand. Collector speak. He said a nice coin brings a premium among knowledgeable buyers sight seen, and no one is going to pay a premium for the sticker (except maybe those who don't understand it). Sight unseen, the sticker tells the buyer CAC thinks the coin is decent for the grade. What could be wrong with that. I wish half the stuff I bought sight-unseen had been decent for the grade. I wish gem meant without obvious flaws, but I digress. The politics each of us projects onto CAC beyond that explanation is just that. I wish them well.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... >>
Treeman, Really? Name one person who has advocated CAC in this or any other thread who has said such a thing. Curiously yours...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>It doesn't tell me a damned thing other than folks are willing to pay extra money for that stupid sticker.
Its either an MS67 or it ain't and you either need it and want it or you don't. >>
So all coins that grade the same are worth the same? I wouldn't expect such an opinion from an experienced numismatist such as yourself. >>
I did not say that Mike! I said you either want it or you don't.
For sure not all MS67's are equal and its up to the collector/numismatist to determine how much he/she is willing to pay for a specific grade. If the amount you pay for a coin is based solely on someone elses opinion, whether its the TPG graders, your local coin dealer, or your best friend, you might end up very surprised! As each of those individuals is simply offering an opinion but the ultimate decision and amount belongs to the purchaser. >>
Thanks for the response, Lee. I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth, but that was the way that I thought you were heading with your point.
That said, I don't think anyone is suggesting that you decide how much to pay for a coin solely on someone else's opinion. However, I would argue that if one third party opinion is good (TPGs), then a second third part opinion is better -- provided you hold the person/groups that are providing those opinions in high regard. And I have to tell you, having experienced first hand the services the TPGs and CAC provide -- I do.
Do I rely on TPGs/CAC solely? Of course not. Do they help me decide to order a coin from a dealer and see it in-hand so I can make an informed decision? Absolutely.
Respectfully...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point? Someone earlier mentioned that the CAC "is not perfect, mistakes can be made". Then again, what's the point? Are two mistakes better than one? One more thing... a "bean" does NOT change the coin that is in the slab, so if someone pays a premium for the "bean", anyone in the know would pay a premium for that coin anyway! If the coin has a "bean", but is not very eye appealing, only a fool would pay a premium! Anyway, if you like the bean, buy the bean. If you don't like the bean, buy the COIN, and you can probably find a way to remove that little sticker. It's also refreshing to learn that there are still people in this world who would lose money just to help us poor, uneducated collectors. I may have to send my coins in to the CAC, just so I can find out if they are really nice, or not. If they get a bean, I'm a good collector, if not, I guess I find eye appeal in junk! I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC. Don't take any offense, and don't take me seriously, I'm just trying to think for myself again.... and LOGIC ain't workin' >>
What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans.... >>
Not necessarily...what if 90% of the coins on the market are NGC-graded and 10% PCGS? >>
Just curious...out of what magic hat did you pull those numbers out of?
might as well have asked "and what if the moon really is made out of cheese?" >>
Hypothetical, but the significance of the "fact" that 40% of CAC-stickered coins are NGC depends a lot on what percentage of the coins submitted to the CAC are NGC coins vs. PCGS. Maybe you were tripping on acid on the day that they taught tough concepts like that in high school statistics. >>
Actually... I was a math honor student...one of my scholastic strong points...
And I attribute my very open, patient and flexible mental attitide to all those "journeys" I took over the years...
I have no issue with hypothetical analysis... just helps a bit to keep the hypothetical stats within some modicum of reasonableness...ya know? >>
Seaeagle,
If you are as gifted at mathematics as you suggest, you should realize that Shortie is 100% correct in his assertion (well, all except the "tripping on acid" comment ). Without knowing the relative % of PCGS/NGC coins sumbitted to CAC, the raw breakdown between stickered PCGS and NGC coins is of no value in determining the veracity of PCGS/NGC grading in CAC's eyes.
Respectfully...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC
I guess the above pretty much sums up my feelings on the whole CAC issue. So, can anyone explain why I should not trust myself, or the TPG's, but should trust CAC? Or should there be another sticker company to "okay" the CAC sticker? After all, ANOTHER "expert" opinion doesn't hurt, right? and maybe another, and another.....
And, you're right Mike, nobody on this board ever said anything about NGC grading looser than PCGS, I must have overmedicated and dreamed that up....
Actually, I think I'm becoming convinced that the CAC is necessary to save us collectors from ourselves. I'm also becoming convinced that maybe the moon is made of cheese....
<< <i>I am really thrilled that someof you heard John speak. I have always said that to nderstand CAC you must meet the man behind it. I was very skeptical when a certain dealer was heralding a "new revolution" while tearing down the TPG's. Than John and I met at a show and after 30 minutes I realized that I had met one of the most honest and intelligent people in the business. I believed in his concept after that. >>
<< <i>I am really thrilled that someof you heard John speak. I have always said that to nderstand CAC you must meet the man behind it. I was very skeptical when a certain dealer was heralding a "new revolution" while tearing down the TPG's. Than John and I met at a show and after 30 minutes I realized that I had met one of the most honest and intelligent people in the business. I believed in his concept after that. >>
Oh My God
No koolaid for me please. >>
You're new....give it some time and you will see that jay is more than opinionated and if you don't agree with him and worship him, he will attack you. It isn't just koolaid for him, it is his "style"
<< <i>I am really thrilled that someof you heard John speak. I have always said that to nderstand CAC you must meet the man behind it. I was very skeptical when a certain dealer was heralding a "new revolution" while tearing down the TPG's. Than John and I met at a show and after 30 minutes I realized that I had met one of the most honest and intelligent people in the business. I believed in his concept after that. >>
Oh My God
No koolaid for me please. >>
You're new....give it some time and you will see that jay is more than opinionated and if you don't agree with him and worship him, he will attack you. It isn't just koolaid for him, it is his "style" >>
New here but definitely not new to the business. Would like to see him answer the questions posted in the did you attend cac thread. I would be interested to see the potomac 2 step.
So those who are buying that CAC sticker sight unseen, they do realize they're buying into a totally different market than those who buy sight-seen coins whether the coins have a CAC sticker or not...........whether it's NGC or PCGS? Or is there really not that much difference between the 2?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>I am really thrilled that someof you heard John speak. I have always said that to nderstand CAC you must meet the man behind it. I was very skeptical when a certain dealer was heralding a "new revolution" while tearing down the TPG's. Than John and I met at a show and after 30 minutes I realized that I had met one of the most honest and intelligent people in the business. I believed in his concept after that. >>
Oh My God
No koolaid for me please. >>
What? You don't want to join the CAC cult?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Not trying to hijack this thread, but could someone explain this to me briefly?
CAC means what to you guys here on the boards? (I realize the reasoning behind collectors with lesser experience needing assistance with grading issues)
1 - resale value?
2 - an ego stroke or professional approval of your picks?
3 - something else that I'm missing?
I feel like most of us here should be able to spot a low end coin if we had to, and price it accordingly. Also, isn't a coin still the same coin whether it's 64 and stickered or 65 and not?
If there's a higher purpose then I'm missing it, I guess...
***Disclaimer - I'm not anti-CAC, nor pro-CAC, just curious as to why all of the animosity and strong feelings.
filthybroke- #1- I can now sell my stickered comemms at or above Greysheey bid. Selling on Ebay has been really tough selling for me the last month. #2- I had a chance to have an expert look at my coins. I would of had other experts look at them, if they were doing the same thing. I wanted to see what John thought and found out we were on the same page with classic commems. First Coinfest CAC was new and we did not know what to expect. 2nd Coinfest we watched collectors line up all morning, and in our opinion, felt CAC was going to be successful and we were right. #3- I don`t know if you are missing anything.
For me, its not any of the above. You are exactly right. A $500 coin is a $500 coin raw, in a holder, or with a sticker. PCGS holders it a MSxx which is valued at $500 in PCGS plastic. NGC holders it MSxxx, which is worth $500 in NGC plastic. PCI holders it MSxxxxx, which is worth $500 in their holder. The sticker is a way of saying PCGSxx+sticker is still worth $500 in a down market. In a perfect world, everybody's standard would be static, but all TPG's depend on submissions, and when the market is a strong, submissions go way up and graders holder more coins. In a down market, all unsold coins in a dealers case look like mistakes, and the TPG's are villains.....too loose. A $500 coin is now a $400 coin. JMO
I bought this 28p raw for $450 two years ago, and it is a PQ slider. I holdered it NGC MS62. It would not get a CAC sticker as an MS62, but it would as a 58. You need to do trig to know what all that means. I think it's still a $450 coin. There may be some combination of services that might make it worth $500, who knows. Sight seen, anyone who looks at it knows what it is. Unseen, the sticker might help a CAC dealer know how to bid.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Boosted resale value makes perfect sense to me, and even having a pro give his opinion could be nice. Heck, I post my stuff here to see what you guys think, but to me that's good enough. I see where people who seem upset for what maybe shouldn't be a big deal at all. I guess I was curious as to why.
The whole CAC/TPG thing gets a whole lot less important when you can see the coin. I am not going to collect $50,000 treasures, and I am not going to buy something I don't understand or cannot see, so I don't think there will be any impact on me. JA's right. It really is only about the coin. If any group can figure out how I can get $1000 for that 28, I'll rush to submit it.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Not trying to hijack this thread, but could someone explain this to me briefly?
CAC means what to you guys here on the boards? (I realize the reasoning behind collectors with lesser experience needing assistance with grading issues)
1 - resale value?
2 - an ego stroke or professional approval of your picks?
3 - something else that I'm missing?
I feel like most of us here should be able to spot a low end coin if we had to, and price it accordingly. Also, isn't a coin still the same coin whether it's 64 and stickered or 65 and not?
If there's a higher purpose then I'm missing it, I guess...
***Disclaimer - I'm not anti-CAC, nor pro-CAC, just curious as to why all of the animosity and strong feelings.
Thanks, guys.
end of line >>
THe CAC provides a market for sight-unseen buyers who have lost faith in a TPGS's ability to accurately grade coins. Anything else beyond this reasoning is the result caused by panic (the domino effect) when the so called lukewarm collectors and dealers let their (as always) doubts get the best of them. In other words, those in the Know and those who don't have the time to be in the "Know" but would otherwise collect coins with a little help, ie; the CAC. In between those two groups there is this mass confusion of "wanabees" (although some were diehard believers of the TPGS's) who have been trying to bridge this gap since time began. Over time, a small percentage do become successful (a neccesary thing that helps replace those who get old, retire and eventually die) while a greater number fall to the wayside with grief and dispair from their miscalculations in what they shouldn't have bought into and could never really figured it out. It was all for a complete loss of financial ruins and a complete abjection from society leading to dereliction and alienation. Of course, there were those who had more money than brains but they get to live with the guilt of knowing they were just idiots all along when it came to buying high quality coins for the grade. Your list should fall into the latter group.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>I am really thrilled that someof you heard John speak. I have always said that to nderstand CAC you must meet the man behind it. I was very skeptical when a certain dealer was heralding a "new revolution" while tearing down the TPG's. Than John and I met at a show and after 30 minutes I realized that I had met one of the most honest and intelligent people in the business. I believed in his concept after that. >>
Oh My God
No koolaid for me please. >>
You're new....give it some time and you will see that jay is more than opinionated and if you don't agree with him and worship him, he will attack you. It isn't just koolaid for him, it is his "style" >>
Right. The famous forum blabbermouth has the franchise on turning threads into punky personal attacks that make him a highly unworthy correspondent. And another who will argue that the sky isn't blue because he just doesn't WANT to admit it.
<< <i> CAC means what to you guys here on the boards? (I realize the reasoning behind collectors with lesser experience needing assistance with grading issues)
1 - resale value?
2 - an ego stroke or professional approval of your picks?
3 - something else that I'm missing?
I feel like most of us here should be able to spot a low end coin if we had to, and price it accordingly. Also, isn't a coin still the same coin whether it's 64 and stickered or 65 and not? If there's a higher purpose then I'm missing it, I guess... >>
MY ANSWERS ARE IN CAPS:
1 - resale value?
I LIKE TDN'S RATING OF ILLIQUIDITY. THAT PRETTY MUCH SAYS IT ALL. IT IS PRIMARILY ABOUT MAXIMIZING LIQUIDITY.
<< <i>Ranked in terms of illiquidity: raw other tpg ngc pcgs cac >>
2 - an ego stroke or professional approval of your picks?
SURE THERE IS A TENDENCY FOR ANY AND ALL COLLECTORS TO CROW ABOUT HOW WELL THEY AND HOW WELL I DID. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, WE SHOULD SHARE OUR MISTAKES AND WHAT WE HAVE FAILED TO DO AS BUYERS/SELF GRADERS OF OUR TPG OR RAW COINS. I HAVE DISCUSSED HOW CAC HAS FOUND NUMEROUS PVC PROBLEMS WITH COIN THAT OTHERWISE LOOKED GOOD FOR THE ASSIGNED GRADE.
3 - something else that I'm missing?
NO ONE FROM THE CAC 'CULT' IS SAYING THAT THE CAC IS PERFECT. BUT THE CAC FILTERING PROCESS, EVEN IF "ONLY" 95% REDUCES THE NUMBER OF MISTAKES MADE BY COLLECTORS ENORMOUSLY.
THE BIG THING ABOUT CAC IS THE GRADING OF THE COIN ONCE THE COIN IS IN THE SLAB. OFTEN, COINS TURN BAD IN A SLAB. PERHAPS THE GRADING SERVICES DID OK IN INITIALLY GRADING THE COIN BUT THEN THE COIN GOES BAD IN THE SLAB, CAC CAN PERFORM A SERVICE IN REVIEWING THE SLAB, YEARS AFTER THE COIN WAS ENCAPSULATED.
ANOTHER TING IS THE IMPORTANCE OF THE INTERNET. MORE AND MORE COLLECTORS BUY COINS OFF THE INTERNET WITHOUT PERSONAL INSPECTION OF THE COIN AHEAD OF TIME. HOW ELSE DOES THE COLLECTOR AVAIL THEMSELVES OF A LOW COST 2ND OPINION OF THE COIN AND SLAB WITHOUT SOLELY RELYING ON PICTURES OF THE SELLERS CHOOSING? WHEN BUYING COINS FROM ANY OF THE AUCTION HOUSES YOU DO NOT HAVE RETURN PRIVILEDGES UNLESS THERE IS SOMETHING DRAMATICALLY MATERIALLY MISREPRESENTED BY THE AUCTION HOUSE. THE CAC HELPS THE BUYER IN THIS REGARD.
So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point?
Lots of nice NGC coins don't cross. We could spend pages discussing the reasons. The bottom line is that if you sent 100 typical NGC cac'd coins for crossing (and removed the beans first), the cross ratio would be closer to 50% than to 100%. I'll leave it to the reader to decide why.
" LIKE TDN'S RATING OF ILLIQUIDITY. THAT PRETTY MUCH SAYS IT ALL. IT IS PRIMARILY ABOUT MAXIMIZING LIQUIDITY.
<< Ranked in terms of illiquidity: raw other tpg ngc pcgs cac >>"
I would Rank them in "terms of illiquidity" this way:
POS Decent Nice PQ
Of course, my ranking is for coins, not plastic or stickers. And besides, "Liquidity" or "Illiquidity" sound like INVESTOR terms, not really COLLECTOR terms. I still truly believe, as illogical as it may seem, that collectors are looking at the actual COIN, then making their own decision as to whether or not it is worth the asking price....
Comments
Camelot
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<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point?
Someone earlier mentioned that the CAC "is not perfect, mistakes can be made". Then again, what's the point? Are two mistakes better than one? One more thing... a "bean" does NOT change the coin that is in the slab, so if someone pays a premium for the "bean", anyone in the know would pay a premium for that coin anyway! If the coin has a "bean", but is not very eye appealing, only a fool would pay a premium! Anyway, if you like the bean, buy the bean. If you don't like the bean, buy the COIN, and you can probably find a way to remove that little sticker.
It's also refreshing to learn that there are still people in this world who would lose money just to help us poor, uneducated collectors. I may have to send my coins in to the CAC, just so I can find out if they are really nice, or not. If they get a bean, I'm a good collector, if not, I guess I find eye appeal in junk! I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC. Don't take any offense, and don't take me seriously, I'm just trying to think for myself again.... and LOGIC ain't workin' >>
What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans....
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<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point?
Someone earlier mentioned that the CAC "is not perfect, mistakes can be made". Then again, what's the point? Are two mistakes better than one? One more thing... a "bean" does NOT change the coin that is in the slab, so if someone pays a premium for the "bean", anyone in the know would pay a premium for that coin anyway! If the coin has a "bean", but is not very eye appealing, only a fool would pay a premium! Anyway, if you like the bean, buy the bean. If you don't like the bean, buy the COIN, and you can probably find a way to remove that little sticker.
It's also refreshing to learn that there are still people in this world who would lose money just to help us poor, uneducated collectors. I may have to send my coins in to the CAC, just so I can find out if they are really nice, or not. If they get a bean, I'm a good collector, if not, I guess I find eye appeal in junk! I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC. Don't take any offense, and don't take me seriously, I'm just trying to think for myself again.... and LOGIC ain't workin' >>
What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans.... >>
Not necessarily...what if 90% of the coins on the market are NGC-graded and 10% PCGS?
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<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point?
Someone earlier mentioned that the CAC "is not perfect, mistakes can be made". Then again, what's the point? Are two mistakes better than one? One more thing... a "bean" does NOT change the coin that is in the slab, so if someone pays a premium for the "bean", anyone in the know would pay a premium for that coin anyway! If the coin has a "bean", but is not very eye appealing, only a fool would pay a premium! Anyway, if you like the bean, buy the bean. If you don't like the bean, buy the COIN, and you can probably find a way to remove that little sticker.
It's also refreshing to learn that there are still people in this world who would lose money just to help us poor, uneducated collectors. I may have to send my coins in to the CAC, just so I can find out if they are really nice, or not. If they get a bean, I'm a good collector, if not, I guess I find eye appeal in junk! I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC. Don't take any offense, and don't take me seriously, I'm just trying to think for myself again.... and LOGIC ain't workin' >>
What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans.... >>
Not necessarily...what if 90% of the coins on the market are NGC-graded and 10% PCGS? >>
Just curious...out of what magic hat did you pull those numbers out of?
might as well have asked "and what if the moon really is made out of cheese?"
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<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point?
Someone earlier mentioned that the CAC "is not perfect, mistakes can be made". Then again, what's the point? Are two mistakes better than one? One more thing... a "bean" does NOT change the coin that is in the slab, so if someone pays a premium for the "bean", anyone in the know would pay a premium for that coin anyway! If the coin has a "bean", but is not very eye appealing, only a fool would pay a premium! Anyway, if you like the bean, buy the bean. If you don't like the bean, buy the COIN, and you can probably find a way to remove that little sticker.
It's also refreshing to learn that there are still people in this world who would lose money just to help us poor, uneducated collectors. I may have to send my coins in to the CAC, just so I can find out if they are really nice, or not. If they get a bean, I'm a good collector, if not, I guess I find eye appeal in junk! I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC. Don't take any offense, and don't take me seriously, I'm just trying to think for myself again.... and LOGIC ain't workin' >>
What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans.... >>
Not necessarily...what if 90% of the coins on the market are NGC-graded and 10% PCGS? >>
Just curious...out of what magic hat did you pull those numbers out of?
might as well have asked "and what if the moon really is made out of cheese?"
Hypothetical, but the significance of the "fact" that 40% of CAC-stickered coins are NGC depends a lot on what percentage of the coins submitted to the CAC are NGC coins vs. PCGS. Maybe you were tripping on acid on the day that they taught tough concepts like that in high school statistics.
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<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point?
Someone earlier mentioned that the CAC "is not perfect, mistakes can be made". Then again, what's the point? Are two mistakes better than one? One more thing... a "bean" does NOT change the coin that is in the slab, so if someone pays a premium for the "bean", anyone in the know would pay a premium for that coin anyway! If the coin has a "bean", but is not very eye appealing, only a fool would pay a premium! Anyway, if you like the bean, buy the bean. If you don't like the bean, buy the COIN, and you can probably find a way to remove that little sticker.
It's also refreshing to learn that there are still people in this world who would lose money just to help us poor, uneducated collectors. I may have to send my coins in to the CAC, just so I can find out if they are really nice, or not. If they get a bean, I'm a good collector, if not, I guess I find eye appeal in junk! I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC. Don't take any offense, and don't take me seriously, I'm just trying to think for myself again.... and LOGIC ain't workin' >>
What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans.... >>
Not necessarily...what if 90% of the coins on the market are NGC-graded and 10% PCGS? >>
Just curious...out of what magic hat did you pull those numbers out of?
might as well have asked "and what if the moon really is made out of cheese?"
Hypothetical, but the significance of the "fact" that 40% of CAC-stickered coins are NGC depends a lot on what percentage of the coins submitted to the CAC are NGC coins vs. PCGS. Maybe you were tripping on acid on the day that they taught tough concepts like that in high school statistics.
<< <i>Hypothetical >>
That's exactly what CAC is, hypothetical.
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<< <i>What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans.... >>
I am no Kool-aid drinker or CAC cheerleader but there is not enough data to support your point. The most likely choice is none of the above. The percentages probably result from the fact that dealers are only submitting the most likely candidates. Unlike submitting to a TPG where you are accepting whatever comes your way, submitting to CAC has a much more defined objective.
I have not submitted any of my coins to CAC and most likely won't until I decide to sell, and that is not in the plans. But I have already identified the coins to be submitted. I have coins that I know won't make it because they are maxed out. That doesn't mean they are lousy coins. After all, I was the one who was lucky enough to get some of them in the maxed holder. And as such it would be a waste of time and money to submit them to CAC. So because of my pre-screening I suspect my results will be even better than the percentages to date, and I have no reason to believe my NGC coins will not sticker at the same rate as my PCGS coins.
Though, it's easy to understand why three hundred million, five hundred eighty-two thousand , and twenty four other people may fear posting their opinions here.
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<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point?
Someone earlier mentioned that the CAC "is not perfect, mistakes can be made". Then again, what's the point? Are two mistakes better than one? One more thing... a "bean" does NOT change the coin that is in the slab, so if someone pays a premium for the "bean", anyone in the know would pay a premium for that coin anyway! If the coin has a "bean", but is not very eye appealing, only a fool would pay a premium! Anyway, if you like the bean, buy the bean. If you don't like the bean, buy the COIN, and you can probably find a way to remove that little sticker.
It's also refreshing to learn that there are still people in this world who would lose money just to help us poor, uneducated collectors. I may have to send my coins in to the CAC, just so I can find out if they are really nice, or not. If they get a bean, I'm a good collector, if not, I guess I find eye appeal in junk! I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC. Don't take any offense, and don't take me seriously, I'm just trying to think for myself again.... and LOGIC ain't workin' >>
What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans.... >>
Not necessarily...what if 90% of the coins on the market are NGC-graded and 10% PCGS? >>
Just curious...out of what magic hat did you pull those numbers out of?
might as well have asked "and what if the moon really is made out of cheese?"
Hypothetical, but the significance of the "fact" that 40% of CAC-stickered coins are NGC depends a lot on what percentage of the coins submitted to the CAC are NGC coins vs. PCGS. Maybe you were tripping on acid on the day that they taught tough concepts like that in high school statistics.
Actually... I was a math honor student...one of my scholastic strong points...
And I attribute my very open, patient and flexible mental attitide to all those "journeys" I took over the years...
I have no issue with hypothetical analysis... just helps a bit to keep the hypothetical stats within some modicum of reasonableness...ya know?
If that's true, I guess it the whole deal becomes moot. PCGS would be going out of business...
They are skewed somewhat. JA has gone on record saying that he get's cherrypicked submissions as well as "kitchensink" submissions by dealers on the hope an odd coin or two get's through. Others maybe framing or setting up coins in their submissions. If "B" coins get slabbed it maybe ok to send maxed out coins in if CAC is your thing. J A also said they have good days and bad days in the CAC grading room in regards stickering coins based on mood and state of mind. It's the human element you just can't get away from. Subjective and objective are not mutally exclusive in this case..............MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
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<< <i>It doesn't tell me a damned thing other than folks are willing to pay extra money for that stupid sticker.
Its either an MS67 or it ain't and you either need it and want it or you don't. >>
I believe that comment is both untrue and also quite naive, especially at the MS67 grade level. For those who think that an MS67 saint is an MS67 saint, or an MS67 morgan is an MS67 morgan and they're pretty much all the same, or that CAC'd coins at the MS67 level are no different then you would be well advised to make all your purchases sight unseen from Teletrade and Ebay. >>
Did you really miss the part about "Its either an MS67 or it ain't" ?
Just curious.
Perhaps I should have worded it "YOU either believe its an MS67 or you don't" ?
The name is LEE!
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<< <i>It doesn't tell me a damned thing other than folks are willing to pay extra money for that stupid sticker. >>
And yet if that's the only conclusion that can be drawn, it still says it all doesn't it?
That it does.
CAC is a reality and there's no getting away from it. You either like it or you don't. Since CAC won't CAC Eisenhowers, I really should not even throw my hat in the ring. But I did as I do have an opinion should I ever decide to cross over into the "classics".
The name is LEE!
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<< <i>It doesn't tell me a damned thing other than folks are willing to pay extra money for that stupid sticker.
Its either an MS67 or it ain't and you either need it and want it or you don't. >>
So all coins that grade the same are worth the same? I wouldn't expect such an opinion from an experienced numismatist such as yourself. >>
I did not say that Mike! I said you either want it or you don't.
For sure not all MS67's are equal and its up to the collector/numismatist to determine how much he/she is willing to pay for a specific grade. If the amount you pay for a coin is based solely on someone elses opinion, whether its the TPG graders, your local coin dealer, or your best friend, you might end up very surprised! As each of those individuals is simply offering an opinion but the ultimate decision and amount belongs to the purchaser.
The name is LEE!
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<< <i>Its either an MS67 or it ain't and you either need it and want it or you don't. >>
If its THAT black and white, why are so many coins misgraded or uncrossable amongst the major TPGs? >>
Different Graders!
Different TPG's!
Different Standards!
Different Days!
And CAC is certainly no different.........
Although my experience with crossovers is limited, I did cross an MS65 hoping for an MS66 which came back as an MS64. I cracked that sucker out and resubmitted for the original MS65 grade because it definitely was NOT an MS64. The only conclusion I could draw was company predjudice over the grade. They graded it that and we all know they are a bunch of idiots so lets find a reason to knock it down a point! Better yet, lets just knock it down a point.
There have been numerous occasions where a CACed NGC coin (meaning good for the grade) did NOT cross over at PCGS. If CAC was so danged accurate and so necessary, why not might I ask? It was after all, good for the grade? Or was it?
Now if folks want to pay more for JA's opinion on a coin then thats their business but I simply do not see the need since the TPG has already rendered their opinions. If a buyer or submitter does not trust the opinion of a TPG and really feels the need for yet a second opinion, then why submit them in the first place?
Perhaps if CAC got out of the "validation" phase and moved into actually GRADING coins as a viable TPG, then folks would view them a little differently. But thats not the case.
The name is LEE!
He talks common sense which, being common, I understand. Collector speak. He said a nice coin brings a premium among knowledgeable buyers sight seen, and no one is going to pay a premium for the sticker (except maybe those who don't understand it). Sight unseen, the sticker tells the buyer CAC thinks the coin is decent for the grade. What could be wrong with that. I wish half the stuff I bought sight-unseen had been decent for the grade. I wish gem meant without obvious flaws, but I digress. The politics each of us projects onto CAC beyond that explanation is just that. I wish them well.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... >>
Treeman, Really? Name one person who has advocated CAC in this or any other thread who has said such a thing. Curiously yours...Mike
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<< <i>It doesn't tell me a damned thing other than folks are willing to pay extra money for that stupid sticker.
Its either an MS67 or it ain't and you either need it and want it or you don't. >>
So all coins that grade the same are worth the same? I wouldn't expect such an opinion from an experienced numismatist such as yourself. >>
I did not say that Mike! I said you either want it or you don't.
For sure not all MS67's are equal and its up to the collector/numismatist to determine how much he/she is willing to pay for a specific grade. If the amount you pay for a coin is based solely on someone elses opinion, whether its the TPG graders, your local coin dealer, or your best friend, you might end up very surprised! As each of those individuals is simply offering an opinion but the ultimate decision and amount belongs to the purchaser. >>
Thanks for the response, Lee. I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth, but that was the way that I thought you were heading with your point.
That said, I don't think anyone is suggesting that you decide how much to pay for a coin solely on someone else's opinion. However, I would argue that if one third party opinion is good (TPGs), then a second third part opinion is better -- provided you hold the person/groups that are providing those opinions in high regard. And I have to tell you, having experienced first hand the services the TPGs and CAC provide -- I do.
Do I rely on TPGs/CAC solely? Of course not. Do they help me decide to order a coin from a dealer and see it in-hand so I can make an informed decision? Absolutely.
Respectfully...Mike
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<< <i>The thing I find silly is that MOST (notice I did NOT say ALL) of the CAC fans usually spout off about NGC ALWAYS grading 1 to 1.5 points higher than PCGS... Then they say that they need a bean to tell them that a PCGS coin is actually graded correctly... So, if JA is "the best set of grading eyes out there", and an NGC coin gets a bean, it's a lock for a cross, right? But, if it doesn't cross, the Kool Aide crowd says that "PCGS standards are higher"!!! If that is the case, PCGS trumps the bean anyway, so what's the point?
Someone earlier mentioned that the CAC "is not perfect, mistakes can be made". Then again, what's the point? Are two mistakes better than one? One more thing... a "bean" does NOT change the coin that is in the slab, so if someone pays a premium for the "bean", anyone in the know would pay a premium for that coin anyway! If the coin has a "bean", but is not very eye appealing, only a fool would pay a premium! Anyway, if you like the bean, buy the bean. If you don't like the bean, buy the COIN, and you can probably find a way to remove that little sticker.
It's also refreshing to learn that there are still people in this world who would lose money just to help us poor, uneducated collectors. I may have to send my coins in to the CAC, just so I can find out if they are really nice, or not. If they get a bean, I'm a good collector, if not, I guess I find eye appeal in junk! I can no longer trust myself, or NGC, or PCGS, but, for a reason that escapes me, I can have total trust in the CAC. Don't take any offense, and don't take me seriously, I'm just trying to think for myself again.... and LOGIC ain't workin' >>
What if I told you that 40% of CAC stickered coins are NGC? They are. >>
That is EXACTLY my point! It either kills the "NGC grades easier than PCGS" idealogy, or it kills any validity of the CAC bean! Somebody has to eat a little crow, either the Kool Aide kids, or the CAC fans.... >>
Not necessarily...what if 90% of the coins on the market are NGC-graded and 10% PCGS? >>
Just curious...out of what magic hat did you pull those numbers out of?
might as well have asked "and what if the moon really is made out of cheese?"
Hypothetical, but the significance of the "fact" that 40% of CAC-stickered coins are NGC depends a lot on what percentage of the coins submitted to the CAC are NGC coins vs. PCGS. Maybe you were tripping on acid on the day that they taught tough concepts like that in high school statistics.
Actually... I was a math honor student...one of my scholastic strong points...
And I attribute my very open, patient and flexible mental attitide to all those "journeys" I took over the years...
I have no issue with hypothetical analysis... just helps a bit to keep the hypothetical stats within some modicum of reasonableness...ya know?
Seaeagle,
If you are as gifted at mathematics as you suggest, you should realize that Shortie is 100% correct in his assertion (well, all except the "tripping on acid" comment
Respectfully...Mike
keeps on giving....and giving!
Camelot
I guess the above pretty much sums up my feelings on the whole CAC issue. So, can anyone explain why I should not trust myself, or the TPG's, but should trust CAC? Or should there be another sticker company to "okay" the CAC sticker? After all, ANOTHER "expert" opinion doesn't hurt, right? and maybe another, and another.....
And, you're right Mike, nobody on this board ever said anything about NGC grading looser than PCGS, I must have overmedicated and dreamed that up....
Actually, I think I'm becoming convinced that the CAC is necessary to save us collectors from ourselves. I'm also becoming convinced that maybe the moon is made of cheese....
If so, I hope its something good like pepper jack. Id be pretty upset if it was govt cheese.
I agree. Blue cheese or Munster.
<< <i>I getting the feeloing that some collectors are so cynical and untrusting that they are made of cheese.
Hey, I represent that statement!
I did try to do my part to see this thread hit 200, who knows, it may make it yet....
<< <i>I am really thrilled that someof you heard John speak. I have always said that to nderstand CAC you must meet the man behind it. I was very skeptical when a certain dealer was heralding a "new revolution" while tearing down the TPG's. Than John and I met at a show and after 30 minutes I realized that I had met one of the most honest and intelligent people in the business. I believed in his concept after that. >>
Oh My God
No koolaid for me please.
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<< <i>I am really thrilled that someof you heard John speak. I have always said that to nderstand CAC you must meet the man behind it. I was very skeptical when a certain dealer was heralding a "new revolution" while tearing down the TPG's. Than John and I met at a show and after 30 minutes I realized that I had met one of the most honest and intelligent people in the business. I believed in his concept after that. >>
Oh My God
No koolaid for me please. >>
You're new....give it some time and you will see that jay is more than opinionated and if you don't agree with him and worship him, he will attack you.
It isn't just koolaid for him, it is his "style"
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
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<< <i>I am really thrilled that someof you heard John speak. I have always said that to nderstand CAC you must meet the man behind it. I was very skeptical when a certain dealer was heralding a "new revolution" while tearing down the TPG's. Than John and I met at a show and after 30 minutes I realized that I had met one of the most honest and intelligent people in the business. I believed in his concept after that. >>
Oh My God
No koolaid for me please. >>
You're new....give it some time and you will see that jay is more than opinionated and if you don't agree with him and worship him, he will attack you.
It isn't just koolaid for him, it is his "style"
New here but definitely not new to the business. Would like to see him answer the questions posted in the did you attend cac thread.
I would be interested to see the potomac 2 step.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
So those who are buying that CAC sticker sight unseen, they do realize they're buying into a totally different market than those who buy sight-seen coins whether the coins have a CAC sticker or not...........whether it's NGC or PCGS?
Or is there really not that much difference between the 2?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>We will absolutely not allow anyone, on this Forum,
to think for themselves. Why, such a thing can lead
to intelligent discussion, open minds and informative
debate. That will never do....never....never.....never!
Again, the bear speaks wisdom!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
[actually, I guess I would. I bought the Eliasberg 1885 trade dollar sight unseen - so there are exceptions].
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<< <i>I am really thrilled that someof you heard John speak. I have always said that to nderstand CAC you must meet the man behind it. I was very skeptical when a certain dealer was heralding a "new revolution" while tearing down the TPG's. Than John and I met at a show and after 30 minutes I realized that I had met one of the most honest and intelligent people in the business. I believed in his concept after that. >>
Oh My God
No koolaid for me please. >>
What? You don't want to join the CAC cult?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
CAC means what to you guys here on the boards? (I realize the reasoning behind collectors with lesser experience needing assistance with grading issues)
1 - resale value?
2 - an ego stroke or professional approval of your picks?
3 - something else that I'm missing?
I feel like most of us here should be able to spot a low end coin if we had to, and price it accordingly. Also, isn't a coin still the same coin whether it's 64 and stickered or 65 and not?
If there's a higher purpose then I'm missing it, I guess...
***Disclaimer - I'm not anti-CAC, nor pro-CAC, just curious as to why all of the animosity and strong feelings.
Thanks, guys.
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For me, its not any of the above. You are exactly right. A $500 coin is a $500 coin raw, in a holder, or with a sticker. PCGS holders it a MSxx which is valued at $500 in PCGS plastic. NGC holders it MSxxx, which is worth $500 in NGC plastic. PCI holders it MSxxxxx, which is worth $500 in their holder. The sticker is a way of saying PCGSxx+sticker is still worth $500 in a down market. In a perfect world, everybody's standard would be static, but all TPG's depend on submissions, and when the market is a strong, submissions go way up and graders holder more coins. In a down market, all unsold coins in a dealers case look like mistakes, and the TPG's are villains.....too loose. A $500 coin is now a $400 coin. JMO
I bought this 28p raw for $450 two years ago, and it is a PQ slider. I holdered it NGC MS62. It would not get a CAC sticker as an MS62, but it would as a 58. You need to do trig to know what all that means. I think it's still a $450 coin. There may be some combination of services that might make it worth $500, who knows. Sight seen, anyone who looks at it knows what it is. Unseen, the sticker might help a CAC dealer know how to bid.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Boosted resale value makes perfect sense to me, and even having a pro give his opinion could be nice. Heck, I post my stuff here to see what you guys think, but to me that's good enough. I see where people who seem upset for what maybe shouldn't be a big deal at all. I guess I was curious as to why.
<< <i> Unseen, the sticker might help a CAC dealer know how to bid. >>
Ah, I gotcha. This I haven't considered. I sure wouldn't buy anything sight-unseen, but I guess it is a must for dealers at times.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Not trying to hijack this thread, but could someone explain this to me briefly?
CAC means what to you guys here on the boards? (I realize the reasoning behind collectors with lesser experience needing assistance with grading issues)
1 - resale value?
2 - an ego stroke or professional approval of your picks?
3 - something else that I'm missing?
I feel like most of us here should be able to spot a low end coin if we had to, and price it accordingly. Also, isn't a coin still the same coin whether it's 64 and stickered or 65 and not?
If there's a higher purpose then I'm missing it, I guess...
***Disclaimer - I'm not anti-CAC, nor pro-CAC, just curious as to why all of the animosity and strong feelings.
Thanks, guys.
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THe CAC provides a market for sight-unseen buyers who have lost faith in a TPGS's ability to accurately grade coins. Anything else beyond this reasoning is the result caused by panic (the domino effect) when the so called lukewarm collectors and dealers let their (as always) doubts get the best of them.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
raw
other tpg
ngc
pcgs
cac
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<< <i>I am really thrilled that someof you heard John speak. I have always said that to nderstand CAC you must meet the man behind it. I was very skeptical when a certain dealer was heralding a "new revolution" while tearing down the TPG's. Than John and I met at a show and after 30 minutes I realized that I had met one of the most honest and intelligent people in the business. I believed in his concept after that. >>
Oh My God
No koolaid for me please. >>
You're new....give it some time and you will see that jay is more than opinionated and if you don't agree with him and worship him, he will attack you.
It isn't just koolaid for him, it is his "style"
Right. The famous forum blabbermouth has the franchise on turning threads into punky personal attacks that make him a highly unworthy correspondent. And another who will argue that the sky isn't blue because he just doesn't WANT to admit it.
<< <i> CAC means what to you guys here on the boards? (I realize the reasoning behind collectors with lesser experience needing assistance with grading issues)
1 - resale value?
2 - an ego stroke or professional approval of your picks?
3 - something else that I'm missing?
I feel like most of us here should be able to spot a low end coin if we had to, and price it accordingly. Also, isn't a coin still the same coin whether it's 64 and stickered or 65 and not? If there's a higher purpose then I'm missing it, I guess... >>
MY ANSWERS ARE IN CAPS:
1 - resale value?
I LIKE TDN'S RATING OF ILLIQUIDITY. THAT PRETTY MUCH SAYS IT ALL. IT IS PRIMARILY ABOUT MAXIMIZING LIQUIDITY.
<< <i>Ranked in terms of illiquidity:
raw
other tpg
ngc
pcgs
cac >>
2 - an ego stroke or professional approval of your picks?
SURE THERE IS A TENDENCY FOR ANY AND ALL COLLECTORS TO CROW ABOUT HOW WELL THEY AND HOW WELL I DID. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, WE SHOULD SHARE OUR MISTAKES AND WHAT WE HAVE FAILED TO DO AS BUYERS/SELF GRADERS OF OUR TPG OR RAW COINS. I HAVE DISCUSSED HOW CAC HAS FOUND NUMEROUS PVC PROBLEMS WITH COIN THAT OTHERWISE LOOKED GOOD FOR THE ASSIGNED GRADE.
3 - something else that I'm missing?
NO ONE FROM THE CAC 'CULT' IS SAYING THAT THE CAC IS PERFECT. BUT THE CAC FILTERING PROCESS, EVEN IF "ONLY" 95% REDUCES THE NUMBER OF MISTAKES MADE BY COLLECTORS ENORMOUSLY.
THE BIG THING ABOUT CAC IS THE GRADING OF THE COIN ONCE THE COIN IS IN THE SLAB. OFTEN, COINS TURN BAD IN A SLAB. PERHAPS THE GRADING SERVICES DID OK IN INITIALLY GRADING THE COIN BUT THEN THE COIN GOES BAD IN THE SLAB, CAC CAN PERFORM A SERVICE IN REVIEWING THE SLAB, YEARS AFTER THE COIN WAS ENCAPSULATED.
ANOTHER TING IS THE IMPORTANCE OF THE INTERNET. MORE AND MORE COLLECTORS BUY COINS OFF THE INTERNET WITHOUT PERSONAL INSPECTION OF THE COIN AHEAD OF TIME. HOW ELSE DOES THE COLLECTOR AVAIL THEMSELVES OF A LOW COST 2ND OPINION OF THE COIN AND SLAB WITHOUT SOLELY RELYING ON PICTURES OF THE SELLERS CHOOSING?
WHEN BUYING COINS FROM ANY OF THE AUCTION HOUSES YOU DO NOT HAVE RETURN PRIVILEDGES UNLESS THERE IS SOMETHING DRAMATICALLY MATERIALLY MISREPRESENTED BY THE AUCTION HOUSE. THE CAC HELPS THE BUYER IN THIS REGARD.
Lots of nice NGC coins don't cross. We could spend pages discussing the reasons. The bottom line is that if you sent 100 typical NGC cac'd coins for crossing (and removed the beans first), the cross ratio would be closer to 50% than to 100%. I'll leave it to the reader to decide why.
roadrunner
<< Ranked in terms of illiquidity:
raw
other tpg
ngc
pcgs
cac >>"
I would Rank them in "terms of illiquidity" this way:
POS
Decent
Nice
PQ
Of course, my ranking is for coins, not plastic or stickers. And besides, "Liquidity" or "Illiquidity" sound like INVESTOR terms, not really COLLECTOR terms. I still truly believe, as illogical as it may seem, that collectors are looking at the actual COIN, then making their own decision as to whether or not it is worth the asking price....
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>filthybroke- #1- I can now sell my stickered comemms at or above Greysheey bid. >>
NO, you can't. I asked Saintguru if CAC would pay greysheet bid for ALL classic commems earlier in this thread and his answer was "NO".
Nobody except CAC knows what CAC will pay for anything.