Hey seatedcoins, care to elaborate on my relationship with Arizona Jack?? After all, you're the one who said: "Given the relationship the OP has with the forum member who represents this product it makes one consider whether or that there is malicious intent involved."
P.S. I bought a can of acetone to show a man how it affects coins. Now he understands how useless it is in numismatics. Oh sure, the market might accept it and the TPGs might, too. But now he knows the truth. That's all that counts.
Have not read the whole thread, but the issue seems to be; were the before and after pics taken under identical conditions? >>
They were taken weeks apart on the store card. On the Lincoln the before was taken outside in mid afternoon and the after was taken outside at sundown.
<< <i>P.S. I bought a can of acetone to show a man how it affects coins. Now he understands how useless it is in numismatics. Oh sure, the market might accept it and the TPGs might, too. But now he knows the truth. That's all that counts. >>
I'm missing something here I'm sure of it. 2sides, are you saying that acetone does nothing to coins as a general statement?
I have had several old Morgans and Peace dollars that had ugly written on them from god knows how long ago, did a soak in the acetone bath and the crud came off, may have left the coin somewhat less crappy but nonetheless- it does have some effect on crud.
MH2, well, what I was saying to this fella was from a stricly "PURIST" stance. That doing anything to the state of a coin that got to where it is, is actually "changing it" from it's originality. Not bad, not good. Just fact.
Have not read the whole thread, but the issue seems to be; were the before and after pics taken under identical conditions? >>
They were taken weeks apart on the store card. On the Lincoln the before was taken outside in mid afternoon and the after was taken outside at sundown. >>
If one was doing a before and after comparison, I would think that the pix would be taken under identical conditions or an untreated marker coin be used whose appearance would be identical in both sets of pix.
<< <i>If one was doing a before and after comparison, I would think that the pix would be taken under identical conditions or an untreated marker coin be used whose appearance would be identical in both sets of pix. >>
I agree, especially if the intent is to have the audience draw conclusions. But that alone doesn't indicate an intent to deceive or slander as has been indicated.
<< <i>Considering all of 50 bottles have been sold, it's obvious to me these things are mixed by hand. Could Ken just have gotten a bad bottle? >>
A bad bottle would not have anything to do with image manipulation, that much is for sure >>
You just don't get it. You're selling a product that you admitted that the instructions need fixed. You can talk all you want about image manipulation, but the fact remains that if you look at my pictures you can see where there are pink areas on the Lincoln. Even your instruction sheet says it can happen.
I'm wondering exactly how much and what type of testing was done before releasing this product. On what types of coins has it been tested? I'll bet copper CWTs weren't on the list because the chemist stated that he wasn't familiar with KS' piece.
Question, I believe someone else asked this, but Ill ask it too. What type of testing has been done with this product? What types of metals, time frames for exposure to this product? Here is an idea, if only 50 bottles of this product have sold, why not send a few free samples to posters here with a variety of different coins to try this out on. Im sure a picture guy here would take before and after pictures. I know shippings not free, nor is the product, nor the picture service but what kind of advertising beats real users of this product? Since this is a product advertised here and sold here for use on coins.
Just an idea to maybe eliminate any doubt or question.
Thank you
P.S. AJack, you mentioned a TPG buying some of this product? Can you say which one and if they have tried it yet? Im curious as to there thoughts on this product. Including PCGS's...
<< <i>Question, I believe someone else asked this, but Ill ask it too. What type of testing has been done with this product? What types of metals, time frames for exposure to this product? Here is an idea, if only 50 bottles of this product have sold, why not send a few free samples to posters here with a variety of different coins to try this out on. Im sure a picture guy here would take before and after pictures. I know shippings not free, nor is the product, nor the picture service but what kind of advertising beats real users of this product? Since this is a product advertised here and sold here for use on coins.
Just an idea to maybe eliminate any doubt or question.
Thank you
P.S. AJack, you mentioned a TPG buying some of this product? Can you say which one and if they have tried it yet? Im curious as to there thoughts on this product. Including PCGS's... >>
There are now bottles shipped to many heavy hitters, trust me. I cannot say what TPG, but it is a top tier company, not a junker. I know nothing of the manufacturing process except it is done in a certified lab under lot controlled conditions, perhaps the maker can give more details. I was simply chosen as the distributor, nothing more. I provide this product as a service and it is profitable, however, on a time vs dime status, I do much better with coins. Selling Verdi-gone (tm) will not allow me to retire any time soon.
Well, I have a fresh bottle of this product and did a few Lincolns as a quick test. No color change at all and that was after a day or so in the product.
Sorry Ken but all of the after images and the instruction page have a blue tint. That makes it impossible for others to really know what the hell they are looking at. I don't see any pink in any image. That must be something you are seeing in hand. It could also be my poor eyes and my monitor.
My instruction page is white and I have yet to read it. If your page is white Ken your camera needs to have the white balance set correctly. It's going to take that for folks to make a fair judgment as far as the effects of the product.
<< <i>Now he understands how useless it is in numismatics. >>
Acetone is useless? He needs to learn more. Maybe the truth of just how great it can be for some problems. >>
Now he can understand and learn what a doctor is by reading. And I don't begrudge anyone for it. Apparently we need better doctors.
Maybe it's a matter of how we process the truth. A collector might buy a doctored coin. A purist might be able to tell the difference. It's a matter of each man's own ability to ascertain his own truth. Some coins might need help to market, but that doesn't make it original... any more than a woman with breast implants performs her function as a mother any better, even if the grocer is groping.
I hope you can understand the simplicity of my mind.
edit for punctuation in a run on sentence and to acknowledge that you acknowledge some "problems".
<< <i>Well, I have a fresh bottle of this product and did a few Lincolns as a quick test. No color change at all and that was after a day or so in the product.
Sorry Ken but all of the after images and the instruction page have a blue tint. That makes it impossible for others to really know what the hell they are looking at. I don't see any pink in any image. That must be something you are seeing in hand. It could also be my poor eyes and my monitor.
My instruction page is white and I have yet to read it. If your page is white Ken your camera needs to have the white balance set correctly. It's going to take that for folks to make a fair judgment as far as the effects of the product. >>
Another thing that has been passed by in this long thread, is what appears to me to be a doctored store card to begin with. Here again are Kens before and after. Where did the dents and dingers come from? Perhaps puttied and filled, then recolored with a water soluble agent? This would explain many things. As for the Lincoln pics, thats a wash as they have been proven manipulated, therefore the credibility factor comes into play.
Ken, I know your not a bad guy, but I also know you love a good throwdown on this site. It sometimes becomes difficult to back down after you have taken a position, and I understand that. But this time, and I am sorry to say, you cannot be trusted to post an unbiased opinion anymore on this subject. Not to blame you for " slander " or " malice ", I will take that back, but you won't budge even as the evidence is piling up against you. You have lost this argument.
No biggie. My wife is an attorney. She fights tooth and nail in the courtroom, then will go have a beer after the day with the other. If we ever met in person, the beer and hotwings are on me. I have made many a great friend after a nasty first confrontation. My partner in MesaCoin, Mark, many many years ago we met in a bar in Detroit, then a fight developed. He got dentures, I got a broken leg. We are now brothers and I would trust him with my life, I already trust him with my money.
NOW, where did these come from?? Were they filled? Puttied? Recolored? Why are the shadows blue?
I saw that Ksteel used Auto Levels on all his images, well I have some news.
I took a few pictures of a IHC on a white background (a white cotton T shirt). The picture was just slightly dark - but when I clicked auto adjust, it actually made the image a blue-hue.
Six coins at a professional photographer for before pictures. They'll come back and be done "per instructions" and then back they go for after pictures. We'll see then.
<< <i>Six coins at a professional photographer for before pictures. They'll come back and be done "per instructions" and then back they go for after pictures. We'll see then. >>
Excellent. Now lets both back off the emotion and start to think logic. Thanks for your participation and cooperation Ken. You have steel nutz..........I admire that.
Thanks for posting a link to the MSDS as well as the instructions.
Clearly the instructions are worded in a way that allows for the possibility of the product producing a change in color to the coin, so suck it up Ken. The instruction also go on to remove the liability of the manufacturer if a coin is damaged. Hey... stuff happens. Maybe it's not the "norm" but the fact that the instructions clearly show that it is a possibility lead me to think that the manufacturer had to know it was possible; albeit maybe unlikely. No harm, no foul. You buy it and if you use it you take your chances. That's pretty simple to understand.
For the product to have the same physical properties as water with the exception of 10.9 pH is interesting. That's a pretty high pH. I bet the stuff would clean laundry pretty good if you added a surfactant... (don't try it and blame me though if you ruin your clothing. )
On the MSDS it shows the active ingredient to be 1 - 5 %. I'm wondering if a bottle that maybe has 1% is different than one that might have 5% active ingredient? There are not a whole bunch of base materials that when added to water at 1 - 5% would give you 10.9 pH. Caustic soda comes to mind.
Anyway, once I read the instructions I don't know what the big deal is as they clearly say they might change the color of a coin.
<< <i>Thanks for posting a link to the MSDS as well as the instructions.
Clearly the instructions are worded in a way that allows for the possibility of the product producing a change in color to the coin, so suck it up Ken. The instruction also go on to remove the liability of the manufacturer if a coin is damaged. Hey... stuff happens. Maybe it's not the "norm" but the fact that the instructions clearly show that it is a possibility lead me to think that the manufacturer had to know it was possible; albeit maybe unlikely. No harm, no foul. You buy it and if you use it you take your chances. That's pretty simple to understand.
For the product to have the same physical properties as water with the exception of 10.9 pH is interesting. That's a pretty high pH. I bet the stuff would clean laundry pretty good if you added a surfactant... (don't try it and blame me though if you ruin your clothing. )
On the MSDS it shows the active ingredient to be 1 - 5 %. I'm wondering if a bottle that maybe has 1% is different than one that might have 5% active ingredient? There are not a whole bunch of base materials that when added to water at 1 - 5% would give you 10.9 pH. Caustic soda comes to mind.
Anyway, once I read the instructions I don't know what the big deal is as they clearly say they might change the color of a coin. >>
It old oxidized copper is removed, then wouldn't new copper underneath be red or pink in color?
<< <i>Here is what I don't get and this is not a slam against the product just an observation of what the product can do. I see example with verdigris which everyone says is corrosion and results in damage to the surfaces of the coin. However when this product is used like others it appears to completely remove the verdigris, and once it is removed the coin looks fine. So why didn't the verdigris damage the surfaces of the coin when it was all over it? why do we not see the results of the harmful corrosion that ate into the surfaces? >>
Probly because its a surface phenomenon and doesn't extend below the first couple layers of atoms. Likely one of those things where once the initial layer is formed, it protects against further erosion/corrosion.
<< <i>On the MSDS it shows the active ingredient to be 1 - 5 %. I'm wondering if a bottle that maybe has 1% is different than one that might have 5% active ingredient? There are not a whole bunch of base materials that when added to water at 1 - 5% would give you 10.9 pH. Caustic soda comes to mind.
Anyway, once I read the instructions I don't know what the big deal is as they clearly say they might change the color of a coin. >>
The em ess dee ess says it leaves no residue so that rules out sodium hydroxide/caustic soda. I assume that means that if you leave it out for the water to evaporate off that that is where the no residue comes in.
<< <i>On the MSDS it shows the active ingredient to be 1 - 5 %. I'm wondering if a bottle that maybe has 1% is different than one that might have 5% active ingredient? There are not a whole bunch of base materials that when added to water at 1 - 5% would give you 10.9 pH. Caustic soda comes to mind.
Anyway, once I read the instructions I don't know what the big deal is as they clearly say they might change the color of a coin. >>
The em ess dee ess says it leaves no residue so that rules out sodium hydroxide/caustic soda. I assume that means that if you leave it out for the water to evaporate off that that is where the no residue comes in. >>
The pics showing before and after, and asking where the dings are in the before......well, I can see them in the before. Some of it is angle, some is lighting, some is the color of the coin. They are there. Would I have been as conscious of them in the "before" photo? Nope. They really show in the after though, but, again, they were there.
As for puttying a coin/token like that? I don't think so. Dirt and grime, yes. Putty, no.
So, not saying it is good, not saying it is bad. I'm not taking sides in this because I haven't tried the product though I do have some wheaties that have verdigris and I consider worth a couple of cents, at the most, because of that. So, it could be a good thing, or maybe not.
Only tossing in my post because arguing something that isn't there (or is there in this case) doesn't help when it's wrong.
I think the original coin was recolored long ago (1960's - Yes they did that to CWT's back then). The verdi-gone probably uncovered the disaster waiting underneath the verdigris.
<< <i>Now he understands how useless it is in numismatics. >>
Acetone is useless? He needs to learn more. Maybe the truth of just how great it can be for some problems. >>
Now he can understand and learn what a doctor is by reading. And I don't begrudge anyone for it. Apparently we need better doctors.
Maybe it's a matter of how we process the truth. A collector might buy a doctored coin. A purist might be able to tell the difference. It's a matter of each man's own ability to ascertain his own truth. Some coins might need help to market, but that doesn't make it original... any more than a woman with breast implants performs her function as a mother any better, even if the grocer is groping.
I hope you can understand the simplicity of my mind.
edit for punctuation in a run on sentence and to acknowledge that you acknowledge some "problems". >>
Just a comp. Here is an example of a coin sitting in mineral oil for a little over a year. I used a moistened/softened toothpick to help dislodge some crud that wanted to come off. Although the pics were taken with a different camera, the coin did change from green to copper color.
if you want a job done right you got to do it yourself is what i grew up on. i ordered a bottle and will try it on these two lincolns. i went through a roll of 1952-S lincolns and chose these two. one barely has verdigris and the other is severe. i always shoot with the same exact lighting and cam settings. these settings are the best i can do with a cheap point and shoot, one OTT light and no cropping or editing. my pictures are lame compared to some here but good enough to show any change. these are the before pics and i will post after pics after doing a 1 hour soak when i receive the product. i prefer to do it myself rather than try to figure out who did what to pics on this forum. i don`t see how anybody can say what happened without trying it yourself. enough said...
I've been asked to address some technical questions, I've also decided to make a few general comments.
<< <i>OK, here we go. I just put this in the solution. I'm gonna let it there for one hour. I'll post results after dinner. >>
From the picture, most of the surface residue is organic. Verdigris is GREEN, please review the pictures of verdigris that I've posted so (I hope) you understand exactly WHAT verdigris is. VERDI-GONE™ is designed to only remove verdigris, not organic contamination that is quite apparent on your coin.
<< <i>I'm wondering something. The product is alkaline. What reaction if any would it have with PVC on a coin. Would it soften or melt it off. >>
VERDI-GONE™ is not intended to be used for PVC removal. No experiments have been performed, but it's doubtful that it would have any effect.
<< <i>Laying aside the dispute...the uncontroverted fact here is that the chemist/inventor of the product was indeed telling KS to do things that aren't even alluded to in the pictured instruction sheet. If he "generally" or "always" recommends doing other things prior to using this cleaner, then seriously...shouldn't this information have been included in the instructions? Not trying to stir up anything here; I think this could be a real problem. >>
It's impossible for me to anticipate every possible scenario in which the product will be used. The instructions are general guidelines for use of the product. Including a 10 page booklet of instuctions would be futile, that's why I offer an email address for technical support. When you buy a product such as bleach from the grocery store, do you think they could list every possible scenario for proper use? Nonetheless, I've yet to hear to someone using it on their lawn or bathing a child in it. Some common sense must be used and if you lack that, you should NOT use the product.
Please go and buy ANY other coin conservation/cleaning product and review the instuctions included, BIOX would be a perfect example. The instuctions included with VERDI-GONE™ are more detailed and concise than ANY other coin chemical product on the market, handsdown.
<< <i>What happens if someone uses this on a relatively high dollar item precisely following the instructions as currently written and has a bad result? The rather flaccid one-line we-aren't-responsible disclaimer at the bottom would be little protection against a bulldog lawyer in my humble opinion. >>
The end-user assumes all risk of using the product, it couldn't be spelled out any clearer. If you ruin your coin, it's YOUR fault. Your arguement is akin to attempting to sue Exxon-Mobile after you ruined a coin by soaking it in their gasoline. There isn't a court in this nation that would hear the case because it would be completely frivolous.
<< <i>Just throwing that out there for consideration and/or discussion.
non-polar organic solvent (such as xylenes where can I get some of this? or will acetone be equivalent? >>
Xylenes are available at most hardware stores. Acetone is a polar organic solvent and xylenes are non-polar. Please google this for more information.
<< <i>I have no horse in this race either. I am merely a happy user of Verdi-Gone (tm) over the past 6+ months. I took two of these pics last night. The first was taken before the coin had been touched. The second was after a 90 minute soak in undiluted, virgin Verdi-Gone (tm). The third I took tonight after an 18 soak. The coin was rinsed in cool tap water and patted dry after each soak. I have only used Verdi-Gone (tm) on early Lincolns (bronze) and have never had any problems with the 200+ coins I have conserved. >>
Thanks RedHerring. I don't quite understand why your posts have been completely ignored, as well as mine. Both of us have posted clear pictures of the results, yet nobody has commented. THESE ARE TYPICAL RESULTS and very representative of exactly how the product performs.
<< <i>Eight posts. All of which were either to promote or defend the product. He stands to lose money if the product proves defective.
Considering all of 50 bottles have been sold, it's obvious to me these things are mixed by hand. Could Ken just have gotten a bad bottle? >>
Yes, each batch is laboratory prepared by hand by a skilled and experienced (21 years) chemist (me). Every lot is verified for purity and active ingredient concentration instrumentally. Each batch is QC checked using analytical instrumentation (CIA, Capillary Ion Analyzer) and HPLC (High Performance Liquid Chromatograpy). No product is released that does not meet EXACTING specifications and there is NO significant statistical variability from batch to batch. If the product is within it's current shelf-life of one year, it cannot be "defective" unless it was contaminated or stored improperly by the end-user.
Please tell me how many other chemical coin products are prepared with such great care! I have yet to see ANY manufacturer take the time like I have to post on internet forums and answer specific questions.....NONE.
<< <i>You just don't get it. You're selling a product that you admitted that the instructions need fixed. You can talk all you want about image manipulation, but the fact remains that if you look at my pictures you can see where there are pink areas on the Lincoln. Even your instruction sheet says it can happen. >>
Jack has no say in the contents of the instructions and they will not be changed. Like I said before, I cannot even attempt to address every possible scenario of end-use. If you are unsure of exactly what you are doing, you should contact VERDI-GONE™ technical support via email or DO NOT USE THE PRODUCT.
<< <i>I'm wondering exactly how much and what type of testing was done before releasing this product. On what types of coins has it been tested? I'll bet copper CWTs weren't on the list because the chemist stated that he wasn't familiar with KS' piece. >>
All of my initial testing was done on Lincoln cents. Before selling the product, samples were sent to three independent testers for evaluation. The tests used the product on Lincoln cents, IHC's and large cents, all with excellent results. No product was sold until completion of the independent tests.
<< <i>Here is what I don't get and this is not a slam against the product just an observation of what the product can do. I see example with verdigris which everyone says is corrosion and results in damage to the surfaces of the coin. However when this product is used like others it appears to completely remove the verdigris, and once it is removed the coin looks fine. So why didn't the verdigris damage the surfaces of the coin when it was all over it? why do we not see the results of the harmful corrosion that ate into the surfaces? >>
You are correct, copper is removed from the surface during the formation of verdigris. Verdigris can be a complex mixture of various cupric compounds. The amount of copper removed from the surface is very small with light to moderate verdigris, perhaps only a few micrometers deep. However, with heavy verdigris, surface pitting is clearly visible where substantial quantities of elemental Cu has been "pulled" from the surface. Think of verdigris as a "wick", it acts as a conduit to the physical removal of copper. The thicker the verdigris, the greater the quantity of copper that has been removed.
I think the original coin was recolored long ago (1960's - Yes they did that to CWT's back then). The verdi-gone probably oncovered the disaster waiting underneath the veridris. >>
Comments
<< <i>So you used the before pic? >>
I used before and after pictures.
Cherrypicking takes careful observance.
Nic-A-Date takes careful application.
Making money takes careful considerations.
Making friends takes careful tolerances.
I suggest you people who want to hang and hate, get off the high horse. Class is in session.
I find the Halls rather useful.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>So you used the before pic? >>
I used before and after pictures. >>
Have not read the whole thread, but the issue seems to be; were the before and after pics taken under identical conditions?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Ken
Is the second picture (after picture) at least 95% accurate as far as color is concerned? >>
YES!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So you used the before pic? >>
I used before and after pictures. >>
Have not read the whole thread, but the issue seems to be; were the before and after pics taken under identical conditions? >>
They were taken weeks apart on the store card. On the Lincoln the before was taken outside in mid afternoon and the after was taken outside at sundown.
<< <i>P.S. I bought a can of acetone to show a man how it affects coins. Now he understands how useless it is in numismatics. Oh sure, the market might accept it and the TPGs might, too. But now he knows the truth. That's all that counts. >>
I'm missing something here I'm sure of it.
2sides, are you saying that acetone does nothing to coins as a general statement?
I have had several old Morgans and Peace dollars that had ugly written on them from god knows how long ago, did a soak in the acetone bath and the crud came off, may have left the coin somewhat less crappy but nonetheless- it does have some effect on crud.
just asking that's all.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So you used the before pic? >>
I used before and after pictures. >>
Have not read the whole thread, but the issue seems to be; were the before and after pics taken under identical conditions? >>
They were taken weeks apart on the store card. On the Lincoln the before was taken outside in mid afternoon and the after was taken outside at sundown. >>
If one was doing a before and after comparison, I would think that the pix would be taken under identical conditions or an untreated marker coin be used whose appearance would be identical in both sets of pix.
<< <i>If one was doing a before and after comparison, I would think that the pix would be taken under identical conditions or an untreated marker coin be used whose appearance would be identical in both sets of pix. >>
I agree, especially if the intent is to have the audience draw conclusions. But that alone doesn't indicate an intent to deceive or slander as has been indicated.
Free Trial
<< <i>It appears that the copper oxidation was removed along with the verdigris, leaving a coin which looked better before the treatment. >>
<< <i>Considering all of 50 bottles have been sold, it's obvious to me these things are mixed by hand. Could Ken just have gotten a bad bottle? >>
A bad bottle would not have anything to do with image manipulation, that much is for sure
<< <i>
<< <i>Considering all of 50 bottles have been sold, it's obvious to me these things are mixed by hand. Could Ken just have gotten a bad bottle? >>
A bad bottle would not have anything to do with image manipulation, that much is for sure
You just don't get it. You're selling a product that you admitted that the instructions need fixed. You can talk all you want about image manipulation, but the fact remains that if you look at my pictures you can see where there are pink areas on the Lincoln. Even your instruction sheet says it can happen.
<< <i>Now he understands how useless it is in numismatics. >>
Acetone is useless? He needs to learn more. Maybe the truth of just how great it can be for some problems.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Here is an idea, if only 50 bottles of this product have sold, why not send a few free samples to posters here with a variety of different coins to try this out on. Im sure a picture guy here would take before and after pictures. I know shippings not free, nor is the product, nor the picture service but what kind of advertising beats real users of this product? Since this is a product advertised here and sold here for use on coins.
Just an idea to maybe eliminate any doubt or question.
Thank you
P.S. AJack, you mentioned a TPG buying some of this product? Can you say which one and if they have tried it yet? Im curious as to there thoughts on this product. Including PCGS's...
<< <i>Question, I believe someone else asked this, but Ill ask it too. What type of testing has been done with this product? What types of metals, time frames for exposure to this product?
Here is an idea, if only 50 bottles of this product have sold, why not send a few free samples to posters here with a variety of different coins to try this out on. Im sure a picture guy here would take before and after pictures. I know shippings not free, nor is the product, nor the picture service but what kind of advertising beats real users of this product? Since this is a product advertised here and sold here for use on coins.
Just an idea to maybe eliminate any doubt or question.
Thank you
P.S. AJack, you mentioned a TPG buying some of this product? Can you say which one and if they have tried it yet? Im curious as to there thoughts on this product. Including PCGS's... >>
There are now bottles shipped to many heavy hitters, trust me. I cannot say what TPG, but it is a top tier company, not a junker.
I know nothing of the manufacturing process except it is done in a certified lab under lot controlled conditions, perhaps the maker can give more details. I was simply chosen as the distributor, nothing more. I provide this product as a service and it is profitable, however, on a time vs dime status, I do much better with coins. Selling Verdi-gone (tm) will not allow me to retire any time soon.
Ebay pictures by seller
My pics
No color change at all and that was after a day or so in the product.
Sorry Ken but all of the after images and the instruction page have a blue tint.
That makes it impossible for others to really know what the hell they are looking at.
I don't see any pink in any image. That must be something you are seeing in hand.
It could also be my poor eyes and my monitor.
My instruction page is white and I have yet to read it.
If your page is white Ken your camera needs to have the white balance set correctly.
It's going to take that for folks to make a fair judgment as far as the effects of the product.
<< <i>
<< <i>Now he understands how useless it is in numismatics. >>
Acetone is useless? He needs to learn more. Maybe the truth of just how great it can be for some problems. >>
Now he can understand and learn what a doctor is by reading. And I don't begrudge anyone for it. Apparently we need better doctors.
Maybe it's a matter of how we process the truth. A collector might buy a doctored coin. A purist might be able to tell the difference. It's a matter of each man's own ability to ascertain his own truth. Some coins might need help to market, but that doesn't make it original... any more than a woman with breast implants performs her function as a mother any better, even if the grocer is groping.
I hope you can understand the simplicity of my mind.
edit for punctuation in a run on sentence and to acknowledge that you acknowledge some "problems".
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Well, I have a fresh bottle of this product and did a few Lincolns as a quick test.
No color change at all and that was after a day or so in the product.
Sorry Ken but all of the after images and the instruction page have a blue tint.
That makes it impossible for others to really know what the hell they are looking at.
I don't see any pink in any image. That must be something you are seeing in hand.
It could also be my poor eyes and my monitor.
My instruction page is white and I have yet to read it.
If your page is white Ken your camera needs to have the white balance set correctly.
It's going to take that for folks to make a fair judgment as far as the effects of the product. >>
Another thing that has been passed by in this long thread, is what appears to me to be a doctored store card to begin with. Here again are Kens before and after. Where did the dents and dingers come from? Perhaps puttied and filled, then recolored with a water soluble agent? This would explain many things. As for the Lincoln pics, thats a wash as they have been proven manipulated, therefore the credibility factor comes into play.
Ken, I know your not a bad guy, but I also know you love a good throwdown on this site. It sometimes becomes difficult to back down after you have taken a position, and I understand that. But this time, and I am sorry to say, you cannot be trusted to post an unbiased opinion anymore on this subject. Not to blame you for " slander " or " malice ", I will take that back, but you won't budge even as the evidence is piling up against you. You have lost this argument.
No biggie. My wife is an attorney. She fights tooth and nail in the courtroom, then will go have a beer after the day with the other. If we ever met in person, the beer and hotwings are on me. I have made many a great friend after a nasty first confrontation. My partner in MesaCoin, Mark, many many years ago we met in a bar in Detroit, then a fight developed. He got dentures, I got a broken leg. We are now brothers and I would trust him with my life, I already trust him with my money.
NOW, where did these come from?? Were they filled? Puttied? Recolored? Why are the shadows blue?
Will it turn an XF into an AU ? NOPE
Will it remove carbon spots and thumbprints? NOPE
Will it remove the verdigris from an already damaged coin ? YEP
<< <i>Will Verdi-Gone ( tm ) make your junkers gems? NOPE
Will it turn an XF into an AU ? NOPE
Will it remove carbon spots and thumbprints? NOPE
Will it remove the verdigris from an already damaged coin ? YEP >>
See, it's a great advertising campaign. And I don't begrudge you for defending the product. It shows intestinal fortitude. What politicians ain't got
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I took a few pictures of a IHC on a white background (a white cotton T shirt).
The picture was just slightly dark - but when I clicked auto adjust, it actually made the image a blue-hue.
I'll try to replicate it here in a few...
<< <i>
<< <i>It appears that the copper oxidation was removed along with the verdigris, leaving a coin which looked better before the treatment. >>
Since verdigris is oxidized copper, that is perfectly logical.
Before
After - Auto Adjusted
<< <i>here's what I could do:
Before
After - Auto Adjusted
Thank you. That's twice as much as my two cent's worth
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>here's what I could do:
Hey !! thats a nice '62 Mike !!
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Six coins at a professional photographer for before pictures. They'll come back and be done "per instructions" and then back they go for after pictures. We'll see then. >>
Excellent. Now lets both back off the emotion and start to think logic. Thanks for your participation and cooperation Ken. You have steel nutz..........I admire that.
Clearly the instructions are worded in a way that allows for the possibility of the product producing a change in color to the coin, so suck it up Ken. The instruction also go on to remove the liability of the manufacturer if a coin is damaged. Hey... stuff happens. Maybe it's not the "norm" but the fact that the instructions clearly show that it is a possibility lead me to think that the manufacturer had to know it was possible; albeit maybe unlikely. No harm, no foul. You buy it and if you use it you take your chances. That's pretty simple to understand.
For the product to have the same physical properties as water with the exception of 10.9 pH is interesting. That's a pretty high pH. I bet the stuff would clean laundry pretty good if you added a surfactant... (don't try it and blame me though if you ruin your clothing.
On the MSDS it shows the active ingredient to be 1 - 5 %. I'm wondering if a bottle that maybe has 1% is different than one that might have 5% active ingredient? There are not a whole bunch of base materials that when added to water at 1 - 5% would give you 10.9 pH. Caustic soda comes to mind.
Anyway, once I read the instructions I don't know what the big deal is as they clearly say they might change the color of a coin.
<< <i>Thanks for posting a link to the MSDS as well as the instructions.
Clearly the instructions are worded in a way that allows for the possibility of the product producing a change in color to the coin, so suck it up Ken. The instruction also go on to remove the liability of the manufacturer if a coin is damaged. Hey... stuff happens. Maybe it's not the "norm" but the fact that the instructions clearly show that it is a possibility lead me to think that the manufacturer had to know it was possible; albeit maybe unlikely. No harm, no foul. You buy it and if you use it you take your chances. That's pretty simple to understand.
For the product to have the same physical properties as water with the exception of 10.9 pH is interesting. That's a pretty high pH. I bet the stuff would clean laundry pretty good if you added a surfactant... (don't try it and blame me though if you ruin your clothing.
On the MSDS it shows the active ingredient to be 1 - 5 %. I'm wondering if a bottle that maybe has 1% is different than one that might have 5% active ingredient? There are not a whole bunch of base materials that when added to water at 1 - 5% would give you 10.9 pH. Caustic soda comes to mind.
Anyway, once I read the instructions I don't know what the big deal is as they clearly say they might change the color of a coin. >>
It old oxidized copper is removed, then wouldn't new copper underneath be red or pink in color?
<< <i>Here is what I don't get and this is not a slam against the product just an observation of what the product can do. I see example with verdigris which everyone says is corrosion and results in damage to the surfaces of the coin. However when this product is used like others it appears to completely remove the verdigris, and once it is removed the coin looks fine. So why didn't the verdigris damage the surfaces of the coin when it was all over it? why do we not see the results of the harmful corrosion that ate into the surfaces? >>
Probly because its a surface phenomenon and doesn't extend below the first couple layers of atoms. Likely one of those things where once the initial layer is formed, it protects against further erosion/corrosion.
<< <i>On the MSDS it shows the active ingredient to be 1 - 5 %. I'm wondering if a bottle that maybe has 1% is different than one that might have 5% active ingredient? There are not a whole bunch of base materials that when added to water at 1 - 5% would give you 10.9 pH. Caustic soda comes to mind.
Anyway, once I read the instructions I don't know what the big deal is as they clearly say they might change the color of a coin. >>
The em ess dee ess says it leaves no residue so that rules out sodium hydroxide/caustic soda. I assume that means that if you leave it out for the water to evaporate off that that is where the no residue comes in.
<< <i>
<< <i>On the MSDS it shows the active ingredient to be 1 - 5 %. I'm wondering if a bottle that maybe has 1% is different than one that might have 5% active ingredient? There are not a whole bunch of base materials that when added to water at 1 - 5% would give you 10.9 pH. Caustic soda comes to mind.
Anyway, once I read the instructions I don't know what the big deal is as they clearly say they might change the color of a coin. >>
The em ess dee ess says it leaves no residue so that rules out sodium hydroxide/caustic soda. I assume that means that if you leave it out for the water to evaporate off that that is where the no residue comes in. >>
that is a valid point...
Some of it is angle, some is lighting, some is the color of the coin. They are there. Would I have been as conscious of them in the "before" photo? Nope. They really show in the after though, but, again, they were there.
As for puttying a coin/token like that? I don't think so. Dirt and grime, yes. Putty, no.
So, not saying it is good, not saying it is bad. I'm not taking sides in this because I haven't tried the product though I do have some wheaties that have verdigris and I consider worth a couple of cents, at the most, because of that. So, it could be a good thing, or maybe not.
Only tossing in my post because arguing something that isn't there (or is there in this case) doesn't help when it's wrong.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I think the original coin was recolored long ago (1960's - Yes they did that to CWT's back then). The verdi-gone probably uncovered the disaster waiting underneath the verdigris.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Now he understands how useless it is in numismatics. >>
Acetone is useless? He needs to learn more. Maybe the truth of just how great it can be for some problems. >>
Now he can understand and learn what a doctor is by reading. And I don't begrudge anyone for it. Apparently we need better doctors.
Maybe it's a matter of how we process the truth. A collector might buy a doctored coin. A purist might be able to tell the difference. It's a matter of each man's own ability to ascertain his own truth. Some coins might need help to market, but that doesn't make it original... any more than a woman with breast implants performs her function as a mother any better, even if the grocer is groping.
I hope you can understand the simplicity of my mind.
edit for punctuation in a run on sentence and to acknowledge that you acknowledge some "problems". >>
I understand.
Here is an example of a coin sitting in mineral oil for a little over a year.
I used a moistened/softened toothpick to help dislodge some crud that wanted to come off.
Although the pics were taken with a different camera, the coin did change from green to copper color.
<< <i>OK, here we go. I just put this in the solution. I'm gonna let it there for one hour. I'll post results after dinner. >>
From the picture, most of the surface residue is organic. Verdigris is GREEN, please review the pictures of verdigris that I've posted so (I hope) you understand exactly WHAT verdigris is. VERDI-GONE™ is designed to only remove verdigris, not organic contamination that is quite apparent on your coin.
<< <i>I'm wondering something. The product is alkaline.
What reaction if any would it have with PVC on a coin.
Would it soften or melt it off. >>
VERDI-GONE™ is not intended to be used for PVC removal. No experiments have been performed, but it's doubtful that it would have any effect.
<< <i>Laying aside the dispute...the uncontroverted fact here is that the chemist/inventor of the product was indeed telling KS to do things that aren't even alluded to in the pictured instruction sheet. If he "generally" or "always" recommends doing other things prior to using this cleaner, then seriously...shouldn't this information have been included in the instructions? Not trying to stir up anything here; I think this could be a real problem. >>
It's impossible for me to anticipate every possible scenario in which the product will be used. The instructions are general guidelines for use of the product. Including a 10 page booklet of instuctions would be futile, that's why I offer an email address for technical support. When you buy a product such as bleach from the grocery store, do you think they could list every possible scenario for proper use? Nonetheless, I've yet to hear to someone using it on their lawn or bathing a child in it. Some common sense must be used and if you lack that, you should NOT use the product.
Please go and buy ANY other coin conservation/cleaning product and review the instuctions included, BIOX would be a perfect example. The instuctions included with VERDI-GONE™ are more detailed and concise than ANY other coin chemical product on the market, handsdown.
<< <i>What happens if someone uses this on a relatively high dollar item precisely following the instructions as currently written and has a bad result? The rather flaccid one-line we-aren't-responsible disclaimer at the bottom would be little protection against a bulldog lawyer in my humble opinion. >>
The end-user assumes all risk of using the product, it couldn't be spelled out any clearer. If you ruin your coin, it's YOUR fault. Your arguement is akin to attempting to sue Exxon-Mobile after you ruined a coin by soaking it in their gasoline. There isn't a court in this nation that would hear the case because it would be completely frivolous.
<< <i>Just throwing that out there for consideration and/or discussion.
non-polar organic solvent (such as xylenes
where can I get some of this? or will acetone be equivalent? >>
Xylenes are available at most hardware stores. Acetone is a polar organic solvent and xylenes are non-polar. Please google this for more information.
<< <i>I have no horse in this race either. I am merely a happy user of Verdi-Gone (tm) over the past 6+ months.
I took two of these pics last night. The first was taken before the coin had been touched. The second was after a 90 minute soak in undiluted, virgin Verdi-Gone (tm). The third I took tonight after an 18 soak. The coin was rinsed in cool tap water and patted dry after each soak. I have only used Verdi-Gone (tm) on early Lincolns (bronze) and have never had any problems with the 200+ coins I have conserved.
>>
Thanks RedHerring. I don't quite understand why your posts have been completely ignored, as well as mine. Both of us have posted clear pictures of the results, yet nobody has commented. THESE ARE TYPICAL RESULTS and very representative of exactly how the product performs.
<< <i>Eight posts. All of which were either to promote or defend the product. He stands to lose money if the product proves defective.
Considering all of 50 bottles have been sold, it's obvious to me these things are mixed by hand. Could Ken just have gotten a bad bottle? >>
Yes, each batch is laboratory prepared by hand by a skilled and experienced (21 years) chemist (me). Every lot is verified for purity and active ingredient concentration instrumentally. Each batch is QC checked using analytical instrumentation (CIA, Capillary Ion Analyzer) and HPLC (High Performance Liquid Chromatograpy). No product is released that does not meet EXACTING specifications and there is NO significant statistical variability from batch to batch. If the product is within it's current shelf-life of one year, it cannot be "defective" unless it was contaminated or stored improperly by the end-user.
Please tell me how many other chemical coin products are prepared with such great care! I have yet to see ANY manufacturer take the time like I have to post on internet forums and answer specific questions.....NONE.
<< <i>You just don't get it. You're selling a product that you admitted that the instructions need fixed. You can talk all you want about image manipulation, but the fact remains that if you look at my pictures you can see where there are pink areas on the Lincoln. Even your instruction sheet says it can happen. >>
Jack has no say in the contents of the instructions and they will not be changed. Like I said before, I cannot even attempt to address every possible scenario of end-use. If you are unsure of exactly what you are doing, you should contact VERDI-GONE™ technical support via email or DO NOT USE THE PRODUCT.
<< <i>I'm wondering exactly how much and what type of testing was done before releasing this product. On what types of coins has it been tested? I'll bet copper CWTs weren't on the list because the chemist stated that he wasn't familiar with KS' piece. >>
All of my initial testing was done on Lincoln cents. Before selling the product, samples were sent to three independent testers for evaluation. The tests used the product on Lincoln cents, IHC's and large cents, all with excellent results. No product was sold until completion of the independent tests.
<< <i>Here is what I don't get and this is not a slam against the product just an observation of what the product can do. I see example with verdigris which everyone says is corrosion and results in damage to the surfaces of the coin. However when this product is used like others it appears to completely remove the verdigris, and once it is removed the coin looks fine. So why didn't the verdigris damage the surfaces of the coin when it was all over it? why do we not see the results of the harmful corrosion that ate into the surfaces? >>
You are correct, copper is removed from the surface during the formation of verdigris. Verdigris can be a complex mixture of various cupric compounds. The amount of copper removed from the surface is very small with light to moderate verdigris, perhaps only a few micrometers deep. However, with heavy verdigris, surface pitting is clearly visible where substantial quantities of elemental Cu has been "pulled" from the surface. Think of verdigris as a "wick", it acts as a conduit to the physical removal of copper. The thicker the verdigris, the greater the quantity of copper that has been removed.
<< <i>My Two cents:
I think the original coin was recolored long ago (1960's - Yes they did that to CWT's back then). The verdi-gone probably oncovered the disaster waiting underneath the veridris. >>
this is an interesting idea.
Possible, maybe?