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My first use of VERDI-GONE (tm)

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Comments

  • ksteelheaderksteelheader Posts: 11,777


    << <i>about 40 bottles have sold so far, why is yours the only one to do this?

    EDIT. I will retract my second statement. I am at a loss as to why this happened. No accusations and my apologies are given.

    Ken, now please try some Blue Ribbon on the coin, and post another set of pics. THANK YOU >>



    What will blue ribbon do?
  • telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,947 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Jack is only making a couple bucks per bottle. >>



    At $20 per bottle? If so, he needs to find cheaper suppliers.



    << <i>The OP results are NOT typical but could happen. >>



    ...and did, it appears.



    << <i>Give the product a try if you have copper with verdigris, start out with a 1 hour soak on a cheap wheatie - you'll be pleasantly surprised. >>



    Doubt it, but that definitely would be a surprise. I've yet to see any of these whiz-bang cleaning products that don't leave a tell of some sort when used on copper.

    Also, what of long term effects down the line? I'm sure that someone who bought a large cent cleaned with this stuff wouldn't be happy if the opened up their safe deposit box a year later and found it covered with brussel sprouts. image

    Edit to add: I am tempted to buy a bottle just to conduct some experiments of my own.

    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
  • ksteelheaderksteelheader Posts: 11,777
    OK, here we go. I just put this in the solution. I'm gonna let it there for one hour. I'll post results after dinner.

    imageimage
  • RedHerringRedHerring Posts: 2,077


    << <i>At $20 per bottle? If so, he needs to find cheaper suppliers >>



    There is only one source.



    I've used this product on dozens of Lincoln wheats over the last six months and never had a problem.

    The maker of this product has some great before and after (slabbed) photos that he may post a bit later.
  • GrumpyEdGrumpyEd Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭
    Never tried it myself.

    It might be useful to try a minimum soak time (or weaker mix?) then get pics in stages before doing it longer.

    I suspect there are several other reasons why it might work on some coins but not others. Some verdigris is harder and some softer and sometimes it's already corroded under it. Some coins may be too far gone.

    Good luck with it image
    Ed
  • Hello, I am the inventor of VERDI-GONE™.

    After having developed, used the product myself, sold it to many customers, and run multiple independent tests, I have never seen this effect. In fact, it is impossible unless the coin was recolored and the colorant was water soluble. I spent many lab hours developing the product and working out the precise chemical reactions, VERDI-GONE™ is not some home-brew. VERDI-GONE™ absolutely will not remove the natural, oxidized, brown patina from a copper coin, it is chemically impossible. I have seen the patina lightened with extreme over-use, but never completely stripped as in the picture.


    What did the solution look like after you used the product? Exactly how long did you soak the coin per side? I am unfamiliar with this coin, what is the metallic composition?
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    All chemicals and environments contribute to the removal of the originality of a freshly minted coin. Ironically, these two things are also necessary to have originality in a "not-so'' freshly minted coin.,
    image
  • ksteelheaderksteelheader Posts: 11,777


    << <i>Hello, I am the inventor of VERDI-GONE™.

    After having developed, used the product myself, sold it to many customers, and run multiple independent tests, I have never seen this effect. In fact, it is impossible unless the coin was recolored and the colorant was water soluble. I spent many lab hours developing the product and working out the precise chemical reactions, VERDI-GONE™ is not some home-brew. VERDI-GONE™ absolutely will not remove the natural, oxidized, brown patina from a copper coin, it is chemically impossible. I have seen the patina lightened with extreme over-use, but never completely stripped as in the picture.


    What did the solution look like after you used the product? Exactly how long did you soak the coin per side? I am unfamiliar with this coin, what is the metallic composition? >>



    << <i>

    What did the solution look like after you used the product? >>

    Clear with some small specs of what appeared to be verdigris that had come off.



    << <i>Exactly how long did you soak the coin per side? >>

    One hour total time.



    << <i>I am unfamiliar with this coin, what is the metallic composition? >>

    I'm unfamiliar with the composition myself. I do believe they were the same as the Indian cents of the time, but not sure.
  • lope208lope208 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭


    << <i>OK, here we go. I just put this in the solution. I'm gonna let it there for one hour. I'll post results after dinner.

    imageimage >>



    Come on Ken! Didn't you finish dinner yet?
    Curious to see the next pic.
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  • ksteelheaderksteelheader Posts: 11,777


    << <i>

    << <i>OK, here we go. I just put this in the solution. I'm gonna let it there for one hour. I'll post results after dinner.

    imageimage >>



    Come on Ken! Didn't you finish dinner yet?
    Curious to see the next pic. >>



    As I PM'd to Arizona Jack, That Lincoln has been soaking for two and a half hours and needs to go some more. The gunk is just starting to soften. I may not get pics of the Lincoln posted till tomorrow.

    I want all the verdi to come off before pics.
  • joecopperjoecopper Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭
    The is bad news


  • << <i>What did the solution look like after you used the product? >>

    Clear with some small specs of what appeared to be verdigris that had come off.



    << Exactly how long did you soak the coin per side? >>

    One hour total time.



    << I am unfamiliar with this coin, what is the metallic composition? >>

    I'm unfamiliar with the composition myself. I do believe they were the same as the Indian cents of the time, but not sure.
    >>



    Thank you for the response. In my haste, I failed to read your post (or any of them). I've now taken the time to read everything.

    If you had "specks" in the solution after soaking, that was not verdigris. VERDI-GONE™ reacts fully with verdigris bringing it into solution. I also read that you had a "wet sticky substance" on the surface. What you describe is characteristic of a surface colorant or polar organic material that was adhered to the surface. The water in VERDI-GONE™ likely caused the material to gel, the gel was then rinsed away with water.

    Before attempting conservation using VERDI-GONE™ I generally recommend people first soak the coin in distilled water and then a non-polar organic solvent (such as xylenes). Quite often organic residues are mistaken for verdigris and VERDI-GONE™ will not remove such residues. Also, it is possible that the verdigris may be covered with an organic layer (such as oils collectors use) and that would severely reduce the effectiveness of VERDI-GONE™.

    Coin conservation is tricky. I always recommend that collectors try traditional methods such as soaking in distilled water before resorting to VERDI-GONE™ or other chemical products.
  • coinman420coinman420 Posts: 4,666
    i cannot comment on the product as i never used it. IMO the "after" pics in the original post look like the results of MS70. i have tried MS70 on some junk lincolns and MS70 seems to turn the patina blue/purple.

    some of the pics posted of coins "conserved" with verdi-gone do look improved and kept the original patina. i have stated here before..... copper is the most reactive of our coinage and most of the time if you mess with it, it never looks right after.

    again, JMO...

    OK, now carry on with your dipping!!!image
    my ebay items BST transactions/swaps/giveaways with: Tiny, raycyca,mrpaseo, Dollar2007,Whatafind, Boom, packers88, DBSTrader2, 19Lyds, Mar327, pontiacinf, ElmerFusterpuck.
  • ksteelheaderksteelheader Posts: 11,777
    Before

    imageimage >>




    After..3 hours 10 minutes in the solution

    imageimage
  • zeebobzeebob Posts: 2,825
    image

    From gunky old typical cent to garbage in 3 hours... image



    << <i>VERDI-GONE™ is not some home-brew. >>



    Neither is battery acid.



    << <i>VERDI-GONE™ absolutely will not remove the natural, oxidized, brown patina from a copper coin, it is chemically impossible. I have seen the patina lightened with extreme over-use, but never completely stripped as in the picture. >>



    Photographic evidence from a respected forum member not withstanding.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some people want me to make copper age fast. Any tricks ? (sorry this is a roofing question)
  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
    Why is the shadow a totally different color?

    I think the issue may be more of white balance and color correction.

    Ah, if I only had a Photoshop available to me. I could prove it with a reverse color correction.

    In my opinion, the problem here is with the photography. If I can manipulate the after image so that the background look similar to the before image...it would be interesting to see what happens to the coin itself. My guess is that most if not all of the color cast will disappear. It is obvious to me that the after pictures are bluer than they ought to be and that the color cast is primarily due to white balance.

  • ksteelheaderksteelheader Posts: 11,777


    << <i>Some people want me to make copper age fast. Any tricks ? (sorry this is a roofing question) >>



    Read this!
  • zeebobzeebob Posts: 2,825


    << <i>Why is the shadow a totally different color?

    I think the issue may be more of white balance and color correction.<snip> >>



    There does appear to be some component of white balance involved. But the two photo sets are enough for me to stay away from this product. Perhaps in the hands of a seasoned professional it has some merit. But I'm looking at these photos and thinking I'd simple destroy my coins if I dipped them in this stuff. Olive oil might be slow, but it does seem to have a good track record among the old timers on this board.
  • ArizonaJackArizonaJack Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭
    There is a problem with the photos. The lighting, color or something has been tweaked. I am done with this experiment as it is not equal. Let the product stand on it's own from other members and lets see if we can duplicate this result WITH ALL THINGS EQUAL, color, white balance, lighting. This " experiment "is worthless . Photo manipulation or something is going on here.

    KSteel told me that he thinks the first coin had a porosity problem that was covered before, and exposed by the verdigone, but I do NOT see that posted in this thread. Only ugly before and " after" photos.

    Changing the color like we are seeing here is very non typical, and has YET to be brought to my attention or that of the manufacturer.

    5 more bottles went out today, several I think as a result of this thread, so let more folks post some EQUAL condition pics.

    2 " heavy hitters " who I can trust will also receive a bottle Monday or so and I look forward to new fresh opinions .

    The EAC ( edit: or an editor of some EAC type journal ) has also ordered a bottle for independant review.

    EDIT: Heres another thread done a while back on CoinTalk:



    Verdi-Gone experiment BEFORE I started selling it.
    " YOU SUCK " Awarded 5/18/08
  • ArizonaJackArizonaJack Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭
    Look at the before and after pics.......It appears the before coin ( store card ) has many less hits and dents and scratches then the after. The only thing in common is the rim ding. Is it possible the coin was putty'd or filled in any way? You cannot match the hits on the before pic that show in the after pic.
    " YOU SUCK " Awarded 5/18/08
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,556 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>it would be good if more people could post pictures of copper before/after use of the product. Anyone else got some? >>



    Marty has a medal, but he is at work now. >>




    I believe you about the part that "Marty has a medal" but I REFUSE to believe you on anything that makes it seem like Marty works image

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • seatedcoinsseatedcoins Posts: 1,096
    Something is really screwy with the before and after pictures of both examples. It looks as if there have been adjustments made to both "after" pictures. The white balance and contrast look like they have been tweaked.
    Trustworthy BST sellers: cucamongacoin
  • Tdec1000Tdec1000 Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭
    I have tried it as well....it does what it says, REMOVES Verdigris, not removes black spots or any other crap that is on your coins. If the OP coin was not a copper coin or had some other metal in the coin it could have had bad results but what really gets me is that the OP pictures are not even in the same lighting.

    I have a few coppers with verdigris on them and I am going to do a few before and after pics for you all.

    Tom
    Awarded the coveted "You Suck" Award on 22 Oct 2010 for finding a 1942/1 D Dime in silver, and on 7 Feb 2011 Cherrypicking a 1914 MPL Cent on Ebay!

    Successful BST Transactions!SIconbuster, Meltdown, Mission16, slothman2000, RGjohn, braddick, au58lover, allcoinsrule, commemdude, gerard, lablade, PCcoins, greencopper, kaz, tydye, cucamongacoin, mkman123, SeaEaglecoins, Doh!, AnkurJ, Airplanenut, ArizonaJack, JJM,Tee135,LordMarcovan, Swampboy, piecesofme, Ahrensdad,
  • RedneckHBRedneckHB Posts: 19,596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is definately some photo manipulation going on here. I "enhanced" this photo by "decreasing blue" and got this result.

    imageimage

    Edited to add....Most early copper coins are covered in oils. Most of the oil is human oils built up over 10's or 100's of years. This oil can "fill in" small nicks and dings/scratches on a coin. Removal of this "grime" can make a coin look much worse than the "original". This is why NCS is very careful of conservation of copper and will often refuse to conserve a coin.
    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • ArizonaJackArizonaJack Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭
    I am shaking my head wondering what the heck is going on? Why ? Why the intentional manipulation and misrepesentation? This thread may border on something much bigger than a bottle of Verdigone.....
    " YOU SUCK " Awarded 5/18/08
  • I'm not sure what the motivation is behind all of this. VERDI-GONE™ will definately not cause either of the two problems posted. The second coin after pictures are clearly altered. I stand behind my invention 100% and I certainly would not have sold a few hundred bottles (including many repeat orders) if these pictures are representative of how the product performs. Here's some REAL examples. If I didn't trust the product, there's no way I would have used it on my 1909-S VDB:

    Initial Pictures (I'm no photography pro, so excuse the lighting quality please):

    image
    image

    50% solution after 10 minutes:

    image

    50% solution and 40 minutes:

    image

    Before and After:

    image

    NGC Certification:

    image

    image

    image

    Another coin I used VERDI-GONE™ on:

    image

    Customer Supplied Image:

    image
  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
    It is evident to me that the blue channel is much brighter across the whole image in the 'after' images than the 'before' images.

    When I sample the white background, i'm getting blue values that are about 7% high.

    When I compensate for this, to bring the background back to 'white'...well here is my 'after' result and the 'before' photo:

    imageimage

    There is still a blue tinge in one corner of the after photo which, if I correct for, makes the other three corners look wierd.

    But, i'd say that this result is more along the lines of what is expected.



    My conclusion:

    The before and after images do not show the coin as it appears in hand. Instead, the after photos are strong in blue all over, not just the coin, and also may have been contrast enhanced as well.

    If one is going to make such accusations, I would recommend that one takes much better care with respect to consistent color registration between Before and After photos.

  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 13,074 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I am shaking my head wondering what the heck is going on? Why ? Why the intentional manipulation and misrepesentation? This thread may border on something much bigger than a bottle of Verdigone..... >>



    Ken is not known for manipulating photos.

    The white balance may be different in each photo, but it is probably an auto setting reacting to the different colors in the before and after photos. Regardless, the stuff definitely appears to be changing the color on those coins.
  • ArizonaJackArizonaJack Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭
    I thank those who have came here with an open mind and defended me as the distributor of this product. It has become apparent that this thread was started with a motivation and intent to slander. Malice is involved and obvious. I will no longer comment other than to keep this thread current and to expose the malicious intent of the OP.

    Now I will unretract my previously retracted statement. Why Ken? Why do this and what is the motive? I dont know you. I am speechless at your actions. My reputation stands on itself as a straight shooter, and your obvious attempt to damage it has exposed you. Stew in your soup Ken.

    EDITED for spelling. I am P'off bigtime.
    " YOU SUCK " Awarded 5/18/08
  • Here is a coin I'm currently conserving. It has some very deep and tough verdigris that is requiring soaking beyond what I normally recommend:

    INITIAL

    image

    After 72 hours:

    image
  • mrpotatoheaddmrpotatoheadd Posts: 7,576 ✭✭✭


    << <i> The stuff is definitely appears to be changing the color on those coins. >>

    Even when the background color is different in the two pictures? I'm not sure I'd be willing to make any claim as to what the stuff "definitely appears" to be doing at this point.


  • << <i>I thank those who have came here with an open mind and defended me as the distributor of this product. It has become apparent that this thread was started with a motivation and intent to slander. Malice is involved and obvious. I will no longer comment other than to keep this thread current and to expose the malicious intent of the OP.

    Now I will unretract my previously retracted statement? Why Ken? Why do this and what is the motive? I dont know you? I am speechless at your actions. My reputation stands on itself as a straight shooter, and your obvious attempt to damage it has exposed you. Stew in your soup Ken. >>



    I agree, I have much better things to spend my time on. I have no interest in trying to defend the product anymore because this is an obvious attempt to slander, the motivation behind this eludes me as I am not a regular on these forums. Those that have used the product and posted their results all over the internet know better.....and so do I.
  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
    My guess is not white balance, but that the photograph was taken close to a window, where there was a bright blue sky.

    One photo has more exposure to that sky than the other.

    I don't see consistency problems between the obverse and reverse of the before pictures, nor the after pictures.

    But there is no denying the blue cast.

    If the coin were bluish-purple, then an automatic white balance compensation would result with a greenish background. But what we see here is the opposite.

    So, my guess is that the after pictures are getting significantly different, and blue illumination. Namely from indirect sky exposure.

    If that is not the case, then my next guess is that the blue was put there on purpose.

  • Tdec1000Tdec1000 Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭
    Who is to say that the OP is not using "another" chemical afterwords or not using the product correctly?
    Awarded the coveted "You Suck" Award on 22 Oct 2010 for finding a 1942/1 D Dime in silver, and on 7 Feb 2011 Cherrypicking a 1914 MPL Cent on Ebay!

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  • mrpotatoheaddmrpotatoheadd Posts: 7,576 ✭✭✭
    The exact reason for the before/after images being different isn't really important. The fact of the matter is that the pictures can't be used to make any sort of reasonable evaluation of the product in question.
  • ArizonaJackArizonaJack Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭
    front page for the night gang
    " YOU SUCK " Awarded 5/18/08
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wonder what PCGS uses? I sent them this already-slabbed 1926-S MS64RB with very minor verdigris (but still troublesome to me because I worried it was active). I asked for a grade review. PCGS was great to clean it up (more or less). Here are before and after pix.
    Lance.

    BEFORE. Look for verdigris spots in wheat straws, the E in PLURIBUS, reverse rim at 10 o'clock, and the WE in obverse motto.

    imageimage

    AFTER: Just a bit in WE. The reverse looks nice. Note the slight overall appearance change.

    imageimage
  • RedHerringRedHerring Posts: 2,077
    Okay - I've got this Lincoln soaking in 100% (undiluted) virgin Verdi-Gone (tm) as I type. I put it in at 10:55p.m. Central time tonight. I will take it out after 90 minutes at 12:25a.m. Central time.

    This is for color comparison only. I will use identical backgrounds, settings, and no Photoshop.

    image

    The results will be posted asap.
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I will take it out after 90 minutes at 12:25a.m. Central time. >>

    Central time...I've heard of that before. Is that near Greenwich? What time would that be if you lived in a regular place, like the Bronx? I'm a little anxious, is all.
    Lance.
  • RedHerringRedHerring Posts: 2,077


    << <i>What time would that be if you lived in a regular place, like the Bronx? >>




    No where near Greenwich but not far from the village.

    Oh and in the Bronx it would be 1:25a.m.
  • RedHerringRedHerring Posts: 2,077
    And here is the "after" 90 minutes of soak with a cool tap water rinse and pat dry:

    image

    I would let this one soak for few more hours w/o a concern.
  • commoncents05commoncents05 Posts: 10,096 ✭✭✭
    RedHerring, Thank you for posting your results. It looks like it got rid of the dark spot below the bust, as well as removed a lot of the gunk in the letters at the top. Looks like it needs a longer soak to get rid of that big spot. Keep us posted.

    -Paul
    Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com
  • sinin1sinin1 Posts: 7,500
    I suspect no slander or effort to discredit product is involved


    rather the coin had been messed with many years ago



    what would happen if 20-30 years ago, someone dipped or chemically cleaned the coin,
    stripping the surface leaving an ugly pumpkin color


    then darkened the coin with something like Dellars darker

    and allowed crud to collect in around the devices





    then Ken used Verdi-gone which restored the coin to the fugly cleaned coin condition



    what experiments have been performed with Verdi-Gone on messed with copper?
  • commoncents05commoncents05 Posts: 10,096 ✭✭✭
    My thoughts exactly, sinin1.

    -Paul
    Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com
  • RedHerringRedHerring Posts: 2,077


    << <i>Keep us posted. >>



    I dropped the Lincoln back in for an all night soak. I'll get another pic up tomorrow.

    Per sinin1's comments. That it very plausible on the OP of the "store card" but the follow up post of the Lincoln was shocking.

    Again - from my 6+ months experience using Verdi-Gone (tm), I've been very happy with the results and have not encountered anything approaching the OP photos.


    P.S. I've purchased 2 bottles (neither from Jack).
  • 1Mike11Mike1 Posts: 4,422 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It would be interesting if Ken could post some photos of the coins treated with verdigone along side some coins that have not been treated. This way we can see if it is a photography problem with lighting and such or if the product is changing his coins (wether it be from a bad coin to begin with or something interacting with his process). I have read many of Ken's posts and have never read where he has intended harm or malice towards anyone or any product. I think some of the posts here towards Ken were distateful. Give the guy a chance to verify his photography instead of throwing out veiled threats and coming on with a mob mentality. VERDICHEMIST is the inventor of this product and posted instruction in a civalized manner that actually was constructive so kudos to him/her.
    "May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
  • ksteelheaderksteelheader Posts: 11,777
    Wow! A guy goes to bed and wakes up to this and lots of threatening PM's from Arizona Jack!

    The pictures were taken outside on the hood of my car laying on white paper. The first set was at about 4:20 PM. The second set was taken at about 8:15 PM and the light was fading. Pics are taken on my Sony DSC-S85 with white balance set at "one push." In Photoshop, all I did was click on "auto levels" for each picture. I did, of course, resize the pics. I am not and have never claimed to be a good photographer. adamlaneushas given me some guidance from time to time on how to correct my picture problems, but all he has accomplished is to confuse me more.

    I'll be willing to send the Lincoln in question to him to post his pics if he is willing.

    There is and never was anything malicious about my posts. I can tell you that there are pink areas on the coin where debris has come off.
  • FairlanemanFairlaneman Posts: 10,426 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "all I did was click on "auto levels" for each picture."

    This is the problem with the pictures which a couple of other people have addressed already.

    Ken
  • ksteelheaderksteelheader Posts: 11,777


    << <i>"all I did was click on "auto levels" for each picture."

    This is the problem with the pictures which a couple of other people have addressed already.

    Ken >>



    And this is how I do most of my coins. Like I've said, I'm no pro.

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