I think the original coin was recolored long ago (1960's - Yes they did that to CWT's back then). The verdi-gone probably oncovered the disaster waiting underneath the veridris. >>
this is an interesting idea.
Possible, maybe? >>
So what covered up the colrored part of the coin that wasn't covered up by the verdigris? Shouldn't the non-verdigris affected area still retain some of the recolored look?
I think the original coin was recolored long ago (1960's - Yes they did that to CWT's back then). The verdi-gone probably oncovered the disaster waiting underneath the veridris. >>
this is an interesting idea.
Possible, maybe? >>
So what covered up the colrored part of the coin that wasn't covered up by the verdigris? Shouldn't the non-verdigris affected area still retain some of the recolored look? >>
<<Yes, each batch is laboratory prepared by hand by a skilled and experienced (21 years) chemist (me). Every lot is verified for purity and active ingredient concentration instrumentally. Each batch is QC checked using analytical instrumentation (CIA, Capillary Ion Analyzer) and HPLC (High Performance Liquid Chromatograpy). No product is released that does not meet EXACTING specifications and there is NO significant statistical variability from batch to batch. If the product is within it's current shelf-life of one year, it cannot be "defective" unless it was contaminated or stored improperly by the end-user.>>
Thats impressive. So what is the practical difference between a 1.1% and a 0.9% solution of a common chemical in distilled/deionized water?
<< <i>It's impossible for me to anticipate every possible scenario in which the product will be used. The instructions are general guidelines for use of the product. Including a 10 page booklet of instuctions would be futile, that's why I offer an email address for technical support. When you buy a product such as bleach from the grocery store, do you think they could list every possible scenario for proper use? Nonetheless, I've yet to hear to someone using it on their lawn or bathing a child in it. Some common sense must be used and if you lack that, you should NOT use the product. >>
I appreciate the lecture but I wasn't suggesting that you anticipate every possible scenario. You stated that you "always" or "generally" tell people such things as trying distilled water first...you don't need ten pages to say that in the instructions-just one sentence. "We recommend you try soaking the coin in distilled water to remove surface contaminants and then drying it prior to your initial use of VERDI-GONE (tm)." You speak of common sense; seems it would be very common-sensical to include a statement like that.
I understand rushing to the defense of your product, but frankly you seem a bit touchy...I would think you'd welcome input from the community who's your target market.
<< <i>The end-user assumes all risk of using the product, it couldn't be spelled out any clearer. If you ruin your coin, it's YOUR fault. Your arguement is akin to attempting to sue Exxon-Mobile after you ruined a coin by soaking it in their gasoline. There isn't a court in this nation that would hear the case because it would be completely frivolous. >>
I don't believe Exxon markets their gasoline as a way to safely and non-destructively remove junk from the surface of a coin.
What we're talking about here is more like putting a bad batch of Exxon gasoline in your car's gas tank and suing them for the engine damage it causes. That would hardly be a frivolous lawsuit since you're using the product in a manner that a "reasonable person" would think is safe and appropriate according to the advertised and marketed usage of the product.
<< The end-user assumes all risk of using the product, it couldn't be spelled out any clearer. If you ruin your coin, it's YOUR fault. Your arguement is akin to attempting to sue Exxon-Mobile after you ruined a coin by soaking it in their gasoline. There isn't a court in this nation that would hear the case because it would be completely frivolous. >>
Didn't McDonalds say the same thing when that lady spilled hot coffee on her lap?
<< <i>Just a comp. Here is an example of a coin sitting in mineral oil for a little over a year. I used a moistened/softened toothpick to help dislodge some crud that wanted to come off. Although the pics were taken with a different camera, the coin did change from green to copper color. >>
I don't believe that the substance on that token was verdigris. I think it is the green wax-like build up often seen on coins stored in leather for a long time. This is not corrosion - it is a removable waxy substance. A minute in laquer thinner or other strong solvent would have produced the same results as the year in mineral oil. If it had been verdigris, the mineral oil would not have done anything.
<< <i>It's impossible for me to anticipate every possible scenario in which the product will be used. The instructions are general guidelines for use of the product. Including a 10 page booklet of instuctions would be futile, that's why I offer an email address for technical support. When you buy a product such as bleach from the grocery store, do you think they could list every possible scenario for proper use? Nonetheless, I've yet to hear to someone using it on their lawn or bathing a child in it. Some common sense must be used and if you lack that, you should NOT use the product. >>
I appreciate the lecture but I wasn't suggesting that you anticipate every possible scenario. You stated that you "always" or "generally" tell people such things as trying distilled water first...you don't need ten pages to say that in the instructions-just one sentence. "We recommend you try soaking the coin in distilled water to remove surface contaminants and then drying it prior to your initial use of VERDI-GONE (tm)." You speak of common sense; seems it would be very common-sensical to include a statement like that.
I understand rushing to the defense of your product, but frankly you seem a bit touchy...I would think you'd welcome input from the community who's your target market. >>
Reading the responses, I didn't make a comment because I knew I couldn't put it into a nice way....I think telephoto1 put it very well, in the above post that I have quoted him on.
<< <i>I understand rushing to the defense of your product, but frankly you seem a bit touchy...I would think you'd welcome input from the community who's your target market. >>
Reading the responses, I didn't make a comment because I knew I couldn't put it into a nice way....I think telephoto1 put it very well, in the above post that I have quoted him on. >>
I would as well, but only if accurate test results, pics and controls coins were used as well.
Like I said, many of them have been sent out to REAL experts. I expect in a cpl a few weeks we will see a larger test report from many sources. Not callin Ken a " not real " expert, but those pics were not controlled. Hey, if I'm wrong, I'll pull the product in a minute. I dont think I'm wrong yet. I have personally seen the results in hand. Those who comment that who have not, use the grain of salt theory at this point. There is no way in "H" I would risk credibility on this product.
<< <i>I think the original coin was recolored long ago (1960's - Yes they did that to CWT's back then). The verdi-gone probably uncovered the disaster waiting underneath the verdigris. >>
I agree with Rick here (and Sinin1 who said it first), and think that Ken and Jack are both standup guys who are simply misunderstanding each other.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< The end-user assumes all risk of using the product, it couldn't be spelled out any clearer. If you ruin your coin, it's YOUR fault. Your arguement is akin to attempting to sue Exxon-Mobile after you ruined a coin by soaking it in their gasoline. There isn't a court in this nation that would hear the case because it would be completely frivolous. >>
In one case [YOURS] the product is being used for the recommended purpose and in the recommended way. In the EXXON case you are using it for a non-intended purpose and hence they would not be responsible for any damage done. So there is no akinness to the 2 sitchiashuns.
Equipment Make: NIKON CORPORATION Camera Model: NIKON D200 Camera Software: Ver.2.01 Maximum Lens Aperture: f/2.8 Sensing Method: One-Chip Color Area Color Filter Array Pattern: 848 Focal Length (35mm Equiv): 157 mm
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It seems to me that we are missing the boat on a VERY simple solution to this issue. The base of collectors viewing this thread is most likely widely dispersed over the country. Why now meet the oroduct seller at a coin show and take a couple of coins to conserve using his product.
Report back what you see with your eyes and eliminate the camera. There must be someone close by and if he is selling this product he must go to a coin show at some point.
What say ye to this idea?
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
This was certainly an interesting read, but it also illustrates the reasons I've decided to not come here as much as I used to. Some of the people here can be downright ugly. Others always assume someone is trying to pull a fast one, and pursue that idea to no end, no matter how ridiculous it makes them look.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
<< <i>This was certainly an interesting read, but it also illustrates the reasons I've decided to not come here as much as I used to. Some of the people here can be downright ugly. Others always assume someone is trying to pull a fast one, and pursue that idea to no end, no matter how ridiculous it makes them look. >>
I can understand that, but many of us are passionate about both proper coin preservation AND fair dealings.
<< <i>It seems to me that we are missing the boat on a VERY simple solution to this issue. The base of collectors viewing this thread is most likely widely dispersed over the country. Why now meet the oroduct seller at a coin show and take a couple of coins to conserve using his product.
Report back what you see with your eyes and eliminate the camera. There must be someone close by and if he is selling this product he must go to a coin show at some point.
What say ye to this idea? >>
I set up at all local shows, and will be displaying the product. On he 3 day shows, I will display 3 day results, live before your eyes if you care to check by. Ontario CA is my next 3 day show.
On another hand, I have sent this product out to enough pros and full time dealers in the copper game, we may seem some newer results and opinions soon. What we will NOT see is more blue or purple coins.
Ken and I have burried the hatchet, so that drama is over.
My problem is I cannot go public with my test pros, that is a private matter and is up to them to decide whether to enter this arena with an opinion. I would imagine the best read you will get is from an EAC test, who made it clear to me that the product was bought for an independant test to be published. I did not flinch, I sent it as fast as I could.
<< <i>Might want to host the new pictures on a forum... um... other than the one they're currently linked to. >>
With that avatar, you would fit right in over there! >>
I'm not going to register on that forum because all of the Open Forum drama went down well before I joined CU and I don't know the previously banned members anyway. All I meant by my above comment is that CU may frown on that forum being linked here and *POOF* this thread.
<< <i>Might want to host the new pictures on a forum... um... other than the one they're currently linked to. >>
With that avatar, you would fit right in over there! >>
I'm not going to register on that forum because all of the Open Forum drama went down well before I joined CU and I don't know the previously banned members anyway. All I meant by my above comment is that CU may frown on that forum being linked here and *POOF* this thread.
<< <i>Might want to host the new pictures on a forum... um... other than the one they're currently linked to. >>
With that avatar, you would fit right in over there! >>
I'm not going to register on that forum because all of the Open Forum drama went down well before I joined CU and I don't know the previously banned members anyway. All I meant by my above comment is that CU may frown on that forum being linked here and *POOF* this thread.
<< <i>On another hand, I have sent this product out to enough pros and full time dealers in the copper game, we may seem some newer results and opinions soon. What we will NOT see is more blue or purple coins.
Ken and I have burried the hatchet, so that drama is over.
My problem is I cannot go public with my test pros, that is a private matter and is up to them to decide whether to enter this arena with an opinion. I would imagine the best read you will get is from an EAC test, who made it clear to me that the product was bought for an independant test to be published. I did not flinch, I sent it as fast as I could. >>
Since I had heard about Verdi-Gone, I have been keeping track of this thread (through all the chest pounding barbs and jabs, etc.) but I decided not to chime in since I hadn't ever used it. However, Jack was kind enough to send me a bottle so I could "test" it out, which I just did. I have a 1929-D Lincoln cent that is probably AU58/slider brown with mint luster. I'm sorry, but I'm photographically challenged at least for now, so I'm not able to post pictures of this coin. But it had a small chunk of green verdigris right between the 1 and 9 in the date with a larger discolored stain surrounding the verdigris both on the date and in the field around the date. So I soaked the coin as directed for about an hour. When I removed it, I rinsed it then used a camel hair brush to remove the debris which brushed off easily. Frankly, I was not surprised that the green verdigris came off because I could tell it was "new" growth and looked like it had not yet set into the metal of the coin. But what did surprise me is that the stain I mentioned above is also now gone, and there is no trace whatsoever of any sort of spot or discoloration at all. Also, the patina and color of the coin did not change whatsoever - the original luster still remains, and it is still a nice brown coin, but even better than before.
I have long used Coin Care and Blue Ribbon to remove dirt, grease, and new verdigris, but have not found anything that removes more set in debris. So, after these results, the next time I come across another coin that has more severe debris, I am sure I will try this product to see how well it works.
I just wanted to provide an update on a coin I'm conserving. The verdigris on this coin ranged from light to very heavy (pitting). After on and off soaking over 14 days for approximately 120 hours (I let the coin "rest" a lot) , these are the results. I normally do not recommend using VERDI-GONE™ for this long! However, I was determined to remove the verdigris as well as provide photos of how the patina CAN TRULY be affected with the product with over-use. The heaviest verdigris simply could not be removed by me. Perhaps with more determination and prodding with a rose thorn better luck could be had, but I was unwilling to go any further.
Some types of copper coins are more susceptible to color change (such as the blue formed on SOME cents by MS70)
However, it is imperative that verdigris (bronze disease) be removed or you will eventually have a severely damaged coin. If the color is affected, it will eventually retone.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Here are my results, with the bottle that arrived today. The coin is an 1867 DDO 2c piece, and was in the solution for approx. 2.5 hours. Before pics are on the left (or top, depending on your resolution):
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
Today I did my local 40 table Sunday show and had mixed results from the dealers I had given the product to last month. 1 had amazing results, 1 had zero results, 1 was ok ok so so.
What needs to be stressed here is that Verdi-gone is designd for a specific purpose and that is verdigris only. Those that use this application for fingerprints, gunk, dirt etc etc will not be happy, those that think it is a cure-all for damaged coins will be dissapointed. Keep them pics coming folks, and always give your sincere honest opinion.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>My Two cents:
I think the original coin was recolored long ago (1960's - Yes they did that to CWT's back then). The verdi-gone probably oncovered the disaster waiting underneath the veridris. >>
this is an interesting idea.
Possible, maybe? >>
So what covered up the colrored part of the coin that wasn't covered up by the verdigris? Shouldn't the non-verdigris affected area still retain some of the recolored look?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>My Two cents:
I think the original coin was recolored long ago (1960's - Yes they did that to CWT's back then). The verdi-gone probably oncovered the disaster waiting underneath the veridris. >>
this is an interesting idea.
Possible, maybe? >>
So what covered up the colrored part of the coin that wasn't covered up by the verdigris? Shouldn't the non-verdigris affected area still retain some of the recolored look? >>
don`t guess.
Thats impressive. So what is the practical difference between a 1.1% and a 0.9% solution of a common chemical in distilled/deionized water?
<< <i>It's impossible for me to anticipate every possible scenario in which the product will be used. The instructions are general guidelines for use of the product. Including a 10 page booklet of instuctions would be futile, that's why I offer an email address for technical support. When you buy a product such as bleach from the grocery store, do you think they could list every possible scenario for proper use? Nonetheless, I've yet to hear to someone using it on their lawn or bathing a child in it. Some common sense must be used and if you lack that, you should NOT use the product. >>
I appreciate the lecture but I wasn't suggesting that you anticipate every possible scenario. You stated that you "always" or "generally" tell people such things as trying distilled water first...you don't need ten pages to say that in the instructions-just one sentence. "We recommend you try soaking the coin in distilled water to remove surface contaminants and then drying it prior to your initial use of VERDI-GONE (tm)." You speak of common sense; seems it would be very common-sensical to include a statement like that.
I understand rushing to the defense of your product, but frankly you seem a bit touchy...I would think you'd welcome input from the community who's your target market.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>The end-user assumes all risk of using the product, it couldn't be spelled out any clearer. If you ruin your coin, it's YOUR fault. Your arguement is akin to attempting to sue Exxon-Mobile after you ruined a coin by soaking it in their gasoline. There isn't a court in this nation that would hear the case because it would be completely frivolous. >>
I don't believe Exxon markets their gasoline as a way to safely and non-destructively remove junk from the surface of a coin.
What we're talking about here is more like putting a bad batch of Exxon gasoline in your car's gas tank and suing them for the engine damage it causes. That would hardly be a frivolous lawsuit since you're using the product in a manner that a "reasonable person" would think is safe and appropriate according to the advertised and marketed usage of the product.
Didn't McDonalds say the same thing when that lady spilled hot coffee on her lap?
<< <i>Just a comp.
Here is an example of a coin sitting in mineral oil for a little over a year.
I used a moistened/softened toothpick to help dislodge some crud that wanted to come off.
Although the pics were taken with a different camera, the coin did change from green to copper color.
I don't believe that the substance on that token was verdigris. I think it is the green wax-like build up often seen on coins stored in leather for a long time. This is not corrosion - it is a removable waxy substance. A minute in laquer thinner or other strong solvent would have produced the same results as the year in mineral oil. If it had been verdigris, the mineral oil would not have done anything.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's impossible for me to anticipate every possible scenario in which the product will be used. The instructions are general guidelines for use of the product. Including a 10 page booklet of instuctions would be futile, that's why I offer an email address for technical support. When you buy a product such as bleach from the grocery store, do you think they could list every possible scenario for proper use? Nonetheless, I've yet to hear to someone using it on their lawn or bathing a child in it. Some common sense must be used and if you lack that, you should NOT use the product. >>
I appreciate the lecture but I wasn't suggesting that you anticipate every possible scenario. You stated that you "always" or "generally" tell people such things as trying distilled water first...you don't need ten pages to say that in the instructions-just one sentence. "We recommend you try soaking the coin in distilled water to remove surface contaminants and then drying it prior to your initial use of VERDI-GONE (tm)." You speak of common sense; seems it would be very common-sensical to include a statement like that.
I understand rushing to the defense of your product, but frankly you seem a bit touchy...I would think you'd welcome input from the community who's your target market. >>
Reading the responses, I didn't make a comment because I knew I couldn't put it into a nice way....I think telephoto1 put it very well, in the above post that I have quoted him on.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I understand rushing to the defense of your product, but frankly you seem a bit touchy...I would think you'd welcome input from the community who's your target market. >>
Reading the responses, I didn't make a comment because I knew I couldn't put it into a nice way....I think telephoto1 put it very well, in the above post that I have quoted him on. >>
I would as well, but only if accurate test results, pics and controls coins were used as well.
Like I said, many of them have been sent out to REAL experts. I expect in a cpl a few weeks we will see a larger test report from many sources. Not callin Ken a " not real " expert, but those pics were not controlled. Hey, if I'm wrong, I'll pull the product in a minute. I dont think I'm wrong yet. I have personally seen the results in hand. Those who comment that who have not, use the grain of salt theory at this point. There is no way in "H" I would risk credibility on this product.
<< <i>I think the original coin was recolored long ago (1960's - Yes they did that to CWT's back then). The verdi-gone probably uncovered the disaster waiting underneath the verdigris. >>
I agree with Rick here (and Sinin1 who said it first), and think that Ken and Jack are both standup guys who are simply misunderstanding each other.
In one case [YOURS] the product is being used for the recommended purpose and in the recommended way. In the EXXON case you are using it for a non-intended purpose and hence they would not be responsible for any damage done. So there is no akinness to the 2 sitchiashuns.
<< <i>The before pics of my six coin lot for my test can be viewed here. Six coin test lot.
We can also use the data on the pics to see if there are any differences on the after shots to take into account.
File name: coin_5_obv.jpg
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Nikon Note Version: 2.10
Auto Flash Mode:
Flash Used: No
<< <i>Might want to host the new pictures on a forum... um... other than the one they're currently linked to. >>
Report back what you see with your eyes and eliminate the camera. There must be someone close by and if he is selling this product he must go to a coin show at some point.
What say ye to this idea?
<< <i>Might want to host the new pictures on a forum... um... other than the one they're currently linked to. >>
With that avatar, you would fit right in over there!
<< <i>This was certainly an interesting read, but it also illustrates the reasons I've decided to not come here as much as I used to. Some of the people here can be downright ugly. Others always assume someone is trying to pull a fast one, and pursue that idea to no end, no matter how ridiculous it makes them look. >>
I can understand that, but many of us are passionate about both proper coin preservation AND fair dealings.
<< <i>It seems to me that we are missing the boat on a VERY simple solution to this issue. The base of collectors viewing this thread is most likely widely dispersed over the country. Why now meet the oroduct seller at a coin show and take a couple of coins to conserve using his product.
Report back what you see with your eyes and eliminate the camera. There must be someone close by and if he is selling this product he must go to a coin show at some point.
What say ye to this idea? >>
I set up at all local shows, and will be displaying the product. On he 3 day shows, I will display 3 day results, live before your eyes if you care to check by. Ontario CA is my next 3 day show.
On another hand, I have sent this product out to enough pros and full time dealers in the copper game, we may seem some newer results and opinions soon. What we will NOT see is more blue or purple coins.
Ken and I have burried the hatchet, so that drama is over.
My problem is I cannot go public with my test pros, that is a private matter and is up to them to decide whether to enter this arena with an opinion. I would imagine the best read you will get is from an EAC test, who made it clear to me that the product was bought for an independant test to be published. I did not flinch, I sent it as fast as I could.
<< <i>
<< <i>Might want to host the new pictures on a forum... um... other than the one they're currently linked to. >>
With that avatar, you would fit right in over there!
I'm not going to register on that forum because all of the Open Forum drama went down well before I joined CU and I don't know the previously banned members anyway. All I meant by my above comment is that CU may frown on that forum being linked here and *POOF* this thread.
So, no need to fuddernutter me, K6AZ.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Might want to host the new pictures on a forum... um... other than the one they're currently linked to. >>
With that avatar, you would fit right in over there!
I'm not going to register on that forum because all of the Open Forum drama went down well before I joined CU and I don't know the previously banned members anyway. All I meant by my above comment is that CU may frown on that forum being linked here and *POOF* this thread.
So, no need to fuddernutter me, K6AZ.
He's not K6AZ.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Might want to host the new pictures on a forum... um... other than the one they're currently linked to. >>
With that avatar, you would fit right in over there!
I'm not going to register on that forum because all of the Open Forum drama went down well before I joined CU and I don't know the previously banned members anyway. All I meant by my above comment is that CU may frown on that forum being linked here and *POOF* this thread.
So, no need to fuddernutter me, K6AZ.
He's not K6AZ. >>
I know that.
<< <i>
<< <i>On another hand, I have sent this product out to enough pros and full time dealers in the copper game, we may seem some newer results and opinions soon. What we will NOT see is more blue or purple coins.
Ken and I have burried the hatchet, so that drama is over.
My problem is I cannot go public with my test pros, that is a private matter and is up to them to decide whether to enter this arena with an opinion. I would imagine the best read you will get is from an EAC test, who made it clear to me that the product was bought for an independant test to be published. I did not flinch, I sent it as fast as I could. >>
Since I had heard about Verdi-Gone, I have been keeping track of this thread (through all the chest pounding barbs and jabs, etc.) but I decided not to chime in since I hadn't ever used it. However, Jack was kind enough to send me a bottle so I could "test" it out, which I just did. I have a 1929-D Lincoln cent that is probably AU58/slider brown with mint luster. I'm sorry, but I'm photographically challenged at least for now, so I'm not able to post pictures of this coin. But it had a small chunk of green verdigris right between the 1 and 9 in the date with a larger discolored stain surrounding the verdigris both on the date and in the field around the date. So I soaked the coin as directed for about an hour. When I removed it, I rinsed it then used a camel hair brush to remove the debris which brushed off easily. Frankly, I was not surprised that the green verdigris came off because I could tell it was "new" growth and looked like it had not yet set into the metal of the coin. But what did surprise me is that the stain I mentioned above is also now gone, and there is no trace whatsoever of any sort of spot or discoloration at all. Also, the patina and color of the coin did not change whatsoever - the original luster still remains, and it is still a nice brown coin, but even better than before.
I have long used Coin Care and Blue Ribbon to remove dirt, grease, and new verdigris, but have not found anything that removes more set in debris. So, after these results, the next time I come across another coin that has more severe debris, I am sure I will try this product to see how well it works.
The Penny Lady®
However, it is imperative that verdigris (bronze disease) be removed or you will eventually have a severely damaged coin.
If the color is affected, it will eventually retone.
Today I did my local 40 table Sunday show and had mixed results from the dealers I had given the product to last month. 1 had amazing results, 1 had zero results, 1 was ok ok so so.
What needs to be stressed here is that Verdi-gone is designd for a specific purpose and that is verdigris only. Those that use this application for fingerprints, gunk, dirt etc etc will not be happy, those that think it is a cure-all for damaged coins will be dissapointed. Keep them pics coming folks, and always give your sincere honest opinion.