<< <i>[I disagree on #4. There should NOT be vouchers for EOT. Otherwise people would trim all day with nothing to lose.. >>
I kind of agree and disagree with the assertion that they have nothing to lose. Postage will get expensive after a while, so they will lose money, but if a card fails to meet the minimum size requirement, then it should be sent back MSR and not EOT. EOT means just that, there is some EVIDENCE of trimming, not just that it was smaller so it has to be trimmed. It almost seems that PSA is using the two interchangeably.
Granted, this example is gaining a lot of attention because of the value of the card, that it was a group break and came from a legit dealer to begin with. The real issue is how many hundreds of times a day is a card mis-graded EOT. How many thousands of dollars of grading fees are being charged for cards that arent even graded? I dont advocate the trimming of cards, but honestly, is it conceivable that three seperate graders looked at this card and found a shred of evidence that this card was trimmed instead of it not meeting the MSR? Almost impossible!
Nam, I think your points were right on. I have no reason to doubt anyone here. From the posts I've read, everyone involved in the group rip was straightup 100% honest. But let's just say you had a knowingly trimmed Jordan. Here comes a group rip. For a $272 investment, you have "proof" that you pulled THAT Jordan from a pack. What if five people said they pulled Jordans? Did everyone videotape the pulling of the cards out of the packs? If it was me, I wouldn't have videotaped it. I would have been salivating and ripping like a fiend!!! I'm just playing devil's advocate here and am in no way implying that to be the case, but PSA honestly has no way to be 100% sure that card is pack fresh and untrimmed. From the scan the card looks like at least a 9. I hope that is the way it resolves for you.
PSA has no idea of knowing if it was not swapped yes i agree, BUT cmon now are u telling me PSA cannot tell the diffrence between a EOT and a MSR? this is My argument here
<< <i>PSA has no idea of knowing if it was not swapped yes i agree, BUT cmon now are u telling me PSA cannot tell the diffrence between a EOT and a MSR? this is My argument here >>
<< <i>Nam, I think your points were right on. I have no reason to doubt anyone here. From the posts I've read, everyone involved in the group rip was straightup 100% honest. But let's just say you had a knowingly trimmed Jordan. Here comes a group rip. For a $272 investment, you have "proof" that you pulled THAT Jordan from a pack. What if five people said they pulled Jordans? Did everyone videotape the pulling of the cards out of the packs? If it was me, I wouldn't have videotaped it. I would have been salivating and ripping like a fiend!!! I'm just playing devil's advocate here and am in no way implying that to be the case, but PSA honestly has no way to be 100% sure that card is pack fresh and untrimmed. From the scan the card looks like at least a 9. I hope that is the way it resolves for you. >>
Why is anyone assuming the card is small (MSR)? There is nothing in an EOT determination to justify that assumption. As folks have previously posted there are people that purposely find oversized cards so that they can trim them to the proper dimensions. You can get EOT if one corner looks funny/off even if the card measures perfectly.
It is surprising the uproar one single EOT caused. Just re-sub the card or send in for a review, EOT is just part of the grading game. Incorrect EOT determinations happen all the time, nothing new in this instance. Yes it is unfortunate for the original poster but it happens.
BUT cmon now are u telling me PSA cannot tell the diffrence between a EOT and a MSR? this is My argument here
In 1986, paper trimming consisted of using a sharp metal blade and slicing the paper down, leaving a smooth edge. In 2009, paper trimming consists of using a sharp metal blade and slicing the paper down, leaving a smooth edge. How in god's name do you expect PSA to tell the difference whether a card with smooth edges all the way around has been trimmed or not?
Food for thought: should the MJ rookie have been sent in under the 1. EXPRESS - $35 - 5 BUSINESS DAYS (Autographed Cards: 20 business days) Any card with a declared value of $500-$1,999 must be submitted at this service level or higher. This includes autographed cards.
or 2. REGULAR - $15 -10 BUSINESS DAYS Any card with a declared value under $500 and all supersized cards must be submitted at this service level or higher. Excludes autographed cards.
Because according to VCP a MJ # 57 Rc average for : PSA 8 is $633.36 PSA 8.5 is $754.97 PSA 9 is $965.88 PSA 10 is $6,483.64
My answer would be the 1. 35.00 express (grader will look at it better and will receive more scrutiny) 2. regular $15 it gets a quick look over and only gets a second look if the grade or authenticity is in question .
because I don't believe anyone thought this Jordan would pull anything less than a PSA 9 or at worst a PSA 8.5. I also don't believe anyone from the group rip would sell their pack fresh razor corners MJ rookie for 500.00 or less. enough babbling : I would even like JOE O. to respond to this question? Is the 15.00 sub ok with MJ rookies or should it be the 35.00 sub
I would like everyone's opinion ?
PS: Now this MJ gets reviewed and gets a PSA 9 or 10 and PSA insures it for 500.00 bucks ships it back, it gets lost or the postman runs over it. Now the post office is only out 500. then the real screaming starts!
it is shipped registered which is more or less bullet proof.. I would send it under the $15 the fact you say a grader would look at it harder?? does not and should not apply... grade the card.. not the player.. the end
<< <i>Food for thought: should the MJ rookie have been sent in under the 1. EXPRESS - $35 - 5 BUSINESS DAYS (Autographed Cards: 20 business days) Any card with a declared value of $500-$1,999 must be submitted at this service level or higher. This includes autographed cards.
or 2. REGULAR - $15 -10 BUSINESS DAYS Any card with a declared value under $500 and all supersized cards must be submitted at this service level or higher. Excludes autographed cards.
Because according to VCP a MJ # 57 Rc average for : PSA 8 is $633.36 PSA 8.5 is $754.97 PSA 9 is $965.88 PSA 10 is $6,483.64
My answer would be the 1. 35.00 express (grader will look at it better and will receive more scrutiny) 2. regular $15 it gets a quick look over and only gets a second look if the grade or authenticity is in question .
because I don't believe anyone thought this Jordan would pull anything less than a PSA 9 or at worst a PSA 8.5. I also don't believe anyone from the group rip would sell their pack fresh razor corners MJ rookie for 500.00 or less. enough babbling : I would even like JOE O. to respond to this question? Is the 15.00 sub ok with MJ rookies or should it be the 35.00 sub
I would like everyone's opinion ?
PS: Now this MJ gets reviewed and gets a PSA 9 or 10 and PSA insures it for 500.00 bucks ships it back, it gets lost or the postman runs over it. Now the post office is only out 500. then the real screaming starts! >>
your a little late to the party on this one... I asked everyone what level I should send this in under and everyone said just use the 14 day special. I'd be happy to post the PM's w/out names.
One of the reasons PSA has tiers is simply they expect to be paid more for cards that are of a higher value. That is not unreasonable. Cards that are valued at 1000.00 are graded at the express level @35.00 not because the grader looks at it harder, it is charged that amount because if they grade it wrong they are on the hook for more.
Asking them to grade a common valued at 50.00 for 7.00 and a star card valued at 1000.00 for the same 7.00 is crazy, would you in your line of work do something similar?
<< <i>One of the reasons PSA has tiers is simply they expect to be paid more for cards that are of a higher value. That is not unreasonable. Cards that are valued at 1000.00 are graded at the express level @35.00 not because the grader looks at it harder, it is charged that amount because if they grade it wrong they are on the hook for more.
Asking them to grade a common valued at 50.00 for 7.00 and a star card valued at 1000.00 for the same 7.00 is crazy, would you in your line of work do something similar?
Steve >>
I have a question then. In the card hobby, as well as in other hobbies, the grade plays an important role. The Jordan card is worth different values as a PSA-8, PSA-9, or a PSA-10. In some cases, there may be an ungradeable defect. Now, what do I pay for a submission? The $35.00 on the belief that if I pay that, I would get a better grade? Or The $15.00 on the "probable grade" theory?
All I have to say is, if this card was anyone other than Jordan it would already be sitting in a PSA 9 or 10 holder.
Not even close in value, but from a group rip I busted a 1983 Topps wax pack. Subbed 3 cards from that one pack: Tom Seaver Ryne Sandberg rookie Willie McGee rookie
Guess which 2 got a PSA 10 and which one got an EOT? All 3 were sent in the same sub. This happens all the time and on EVERY single sub I have sent in the last year. The highest BV card gets the lowest grade or an EOT.
You have to be a complete fool to believe that PSA grades the card and pays no attention to the player on the card.
I'm a level headed guy here but I think after this much strife we need more of an explanation. Has Joe reprimanded the Cust Svc. people? How do they explain the three grader theory and then that Joe looked at it himself and issued a grade?
Like I said, I don't like stirring they pot, but I think at this point, it's warranted.
<< <i>I'm a level headed guy here but I think after this much strife we need more of an explanation. Has Joe reprimanded the Cust Svc. people? How do they explain the three grader theory and then that Joe looked at it himself and issued a grade?
Like I said, I don't like stirring they pot, but I think at this point, it's warranted. >>
<< <i>I'm a level headed guy here but I think after this much strife we need more of an explanation. Has Joe reprimanded the Cust Svc. people? How do they explain the three grader theory and then that Joe looked at it himself and issued a grade?
Like I said, I don't like stirring they pot, but I think at this point, it's warranted. >>
I agree I would like to hear what happened and how this went down... I was hoping Joe would send more information in his e-mail it was very short and just said your card is now a 9.
<< <i>Okay, now I'm cool sending in mine (soon). Hopefully, I won't have to go through the same jazz. Maybe I should send a pre-emptive email to him? >>
I would just copy and print out this whole thread and put it in with your submission!
I wouldnt push the envelope on this one. Be happy you got the 9 and move on. As much as you or I, or anyone deserves an explanation of what went down, it is highly un-likely we will get one.
Seems that a explaination is owed to the board in general and to you in particular. It has to be explained how a card that has been rejected is now a mint 9. (which we all assumed it would be anyway!!) Something is just not right here and the head honcho has some splaining to do!!
Comments
<< <i>my name is Bob... and I am out of work...
and I would like to throw my hat in the ring to be a grader..
Joe.. Carol.. if you read this.. whatya say?
gimme a shot.. seriously >>
Oh man, I would LOVE to do that! Someone said earlier that grading would be a boring job. NO WAY!!!
Id be very interested to know what qualifies someone to be hired as a grader, and what sort of training they go through.
What I'm selling
Building Sets, Collecting Texas Rangers, and Texas Tech Red Raiders
<< <i>[I disagree on #4. There should NOT be vouchers for EOT. Otherwise people would trim all day with nothing to lose.. >>
I kind of agree and disagree with the assertion that they have nothing to lose. Postage will get expensive after a while, so they will lose money, but if a card fails to meet the minimum size requirement, then it should be sent back MSR and not EOT. EOT means just that, there is some EVIDENCE of trimming, not just that it was smaller so it has to be trimmed. It almost seems that PSA is using the two interchangeably.
Granted, this example is gaining a lot of attention because of the value of the card, that it was a group break and came from a legit dealer to begin with. The real issue is how many hundreds of times a day is a card mis-graded EOT. How many thousands of dollars of grading fees are being charged for cards that arent even graded? I dont advocate the trimming of cards, but honestly, is it conceivable that three seperate graders looked at this card and found a shred of evidence that this card was trimmed instead of it not meeting the MSR? Almost impossible!
<< <i>Oh man, I would LOVE to do that! Someone said earlier that grading would be a boring job. NO WAY!!! >>
I'm sure even male p*rnstars have days when they dread going to work
Current obsession, all things Topps 1969 - 1972
<< <i>I'm sure even male p*rnstars have days when they dread going to work
Insteresting choice of smiley face...
What I'm selling
Building Sets, Collecting Texas Rangers, and Texas Tech Red Raiders
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm sure even male p*rnstars have days when they dread going to work
Insteresting choice of smiley face... >>
LOL, didn't even notice that
Current obsession, all things Topps 1969 - 1972
<< <i>Another Bob Here
Me too!
p.s. edited to add I only to the straight stuff!
<< <i>PSA has no idea of knowing if it was not swapped yes i agree, BUT cmon now are u telling me PSA cannot tell the diffrence between a EOT and a MSR? this is My argument here >>
<< <i>Nam, I think your points were right on. I have no reason to doubt anyone here. From the posts I've read, everyone involved in the group rip was straightup 100% honest. But let's just say you had a knowingly trimmed Jordan. Here comes a group rip. For a $272 investment, you have "proof" that you pulled THAT Jordan from a pack. What if five people said they pulled Jordans? Did everyone videotape the pulling of the cards out of the packs? If it was me, I wouldn't have videotaped it. I would have been salivating and ripping like a fiend!!! I'm just playing devil's advocate here and am in no way implying that to be the case, but PSA honestly has no way to be 100% sure that card is pack fresh and untrimmed. From the scan the card looks like at least a 9. I hope that is the way it resolves for you. >>
how come everyone always likes to be the Devil?
It is surprising the uproar one single EOT caused. Just re-sub the card or send in for a review, EOT is just part of the grading game. Incorrect EOT determinations happen all the time, nothing new in this instance. Yes it is unfortunate for the original poster but it happens.
Robb
That is exactly what they are saying. We are not saying this is in every case, some cases it is obvious others not so much.
Mike shouldbeena said it best, grading is not an exact science. Some of you guys need to reliase this.
Steve
In 1986, paper trimming consisted of using a sharp metal blade and slicing the paper down, leaving a smooth edge. In 2009, paper trimming consists of using a sharp metal blade and slicing the paper down, leaving a smooth edge. How in god's name do you expect PSA to tell the difference whether a card with smooth edges all the way around has been trimmed or not?
...for just 3 easy payments of 29.99 (to cover my renewal fee), I'll send you the info you require!
1. EXPRESS - $35 - 5 BUSINESS DAYS
(Autographed Cards: 20 business days)
Any card with a declared value of $500-$1,999 must be submitted at this service level or higher. This includes autographed cards.
or
2. REGULAR - $15 -10 BUSINESS DAYS
Any card with a declared value under $500 and all supersized cards must be submitted at this service level or higher. Excludes autographed cards.
Because according to VCP a MJ # 57 Rc average for :
PSA 8 is $633.36
PSA 8.5 is $754.97
PSA 9 is $965.88
PSA 10 is $6,483.64
My answer would be the 1. 35.00 express (grader will look at it better and will receive more scrutiny)
2. regular $15 it gets a quick look over and only gets a second look if the grade or authenticity is in question .
because I don't believe anyone thought this Jordan would pull anything less than a PSA 9 or at worst a PSA 8.5.
I also don't believe anyone from the group rip would sell their pack fresh razor corners MJ rookie for 500.00 or less.
enough babbling :
I would even like JOE O. to respond to this question? Is the 15.00 sub ok with MJ rookies or should it be the 35.00 sub
I would like everyone's opinion ?
PS: Now this MJ gets reviewed and gets a PSA 9 or 10 and PSA insures it for 500.00 bucks ships it back, it gets lost or the postman runs over it. Now the post office is only out 500. then the real screaming starts!
I would send it under the $15
the fact you say a grader would look at it harder??
does not and should not apply... grade the card.. not the player.. the end
<< <i>Food for thought: should the MJ rookie have been sent in under the
1. EXPRESS - $35 - 5 BUSINESS DAYS
(Autographed Cards: 20 business days)
Any card with a declared value of $500-$1,999 must be submitted at this service level or higher. This includes autographed cards.
or
2. REGULAR - $15 -10 BUSINESS DAYS
Any card with a declared value under $500 and all supersized cards must be submitted at this service level or higher. Excludes autographed cards.
Because according to VCP a MJ # 57 Rc average for :
PSA 8 is $633.36
PSA 8.5 is $754.97
PSA 9 is $965.88
PSA 10 is $6,483.64
My answer would be the 1. 35.00 express (grader will look at it better and will receive more scrutiny)
2. regular $15 it gets a quick look over and only gets a second look if the grade or authenticity is in question .
because I don't believe anyone thought this Jordan would pull anything less than a PSA 9 or at worst a PSA 8.5.
I also don't believe anyone from the group rip would sell their pack fresh razor corners MJ rookie for 500.00 or less.
enough babbling :
I would even like JOE O. to respond to this question? Is the 15.00 sub ok with MJ rookies or should it be the 35.00 sub
I would like everyone's opinion ?
PS: Now this MJ gets reviewed and gets a PSA 9 or 10 and PSA insures it for 500.00 bucks ships it back, it gets lost or the postman runs over it. Now the post office is only out 500. then the real screaming starts! >>
your a little late to the party on this one... I asked everyone what level I should send this in under and everyone said just use the 14 day special. I'd be happy to post the PM's w/out names.
are of a higher value. That is not unreasonable. Cards that are valued at 1000.00 are graded at the express
level @35.00 not because the grader looks at it harder, it is charged that amount because if they grade it wrong
they are on the hook for more.
Asking them to grade a common valued at 50.00 for 7.00 and a star card valued at 1000.00
for the same 7.00 is crazy, would you in your line of work do something similar?
Steve
<< <i>One of the reasons PSA has tiers is simply they expect to be paid more for cards that
are of a higher value. That is not unreasonable. Cards that are valued at 1000.00 are graded at the express
level @35.00 not because the grader looks at it harder, it is charged that amount because if they grade it wrong
they are on the hook for more.
Asking them to grade a common valued at 50.00 for 7.00 and a star card valued at 1000.00
for the same 7.00 is crazy, would you in your line of work do something similar?
Steve >>
I have a question then. In the card hobby, as well as in other hobbies, the grade plays an important role. The Jordan card is worth different values as a PSA-8, PSA-9, or a PSA-10. In some cases, there may be an ungradeable defect. Now, what do I pay for a submission? The $35.00 on the belief that if I pay that, I would get a better grade? Or The $15.00 on the "probable grade" theory?
Not even close in value, but from a group rip I busted a 1983 Topps wax pack. Subbed 3 cards from that one pack:
Tom Seaver
Ryne Sandberg rookie
Willie McGee rookie
Guess which 2 got a PSA 10 and which one got an EOT? All 3 were sent in the same sub. This happens all the time and on EVERY single sub I have sent in the last year. The highest BV card gets the lowest grade or an EOT.
You have to be a complete fool to believe that PSA grades the card and pays no attention to the player on the card.
I concur.. I just wish they wouldn't.
just grade the cardboard only
<< <i>
You have to be a complete fool to believe that PSA grades the card and pays no attention to the player on the card. >>
Quote of the day on this thread!!
And would also add at the end of that quote "and who the person subbing the cards are!"
<---bitter
thank you very much!
<< <i>Issue has been resolved... Mr. Orlando e-mailed me back saying the card was graded a PSA Mint 9!thank you very much! >>
very nice. glad issue was solved.
looking for PELLE LINDBERGH's psa and 1960 fleer baseball psa 8 and up
sets in progress
R.I.P. Barstow 24 April 1999 - May 15 2009
Bosox1976
<< <i>Issue has been resolved... Mr. Orlando e-mailed me back saying the card was graded a PSA Mint 9!
thank you very much! >>
Congrats!!
Wish it was this easy for all of us peons
CINCINNATI REDS
1976 - 1991 - Topps PSA 10
1983 & 1985 Fleer PSA 10
1985 Donruss PSA 10
Blue Ink Signed Topps Cards
Game-Used Bats/Jerseys
OPC PSA 10
MC & OC Cards
OTHER:
Eric Davis Anything
Votto, Willingham, Cantu, Doumit, Gomes
Baron Davis Game Used Jersey
Mike
Like I said, I don't like stirring they pot, but I think at this point, it's warranted.
My Podcast - Now FEATURED on iTunes
<< <i>I'm a level headed guy here but I think after this much strife we need more of an explanation. Has Joe reprimanded the Cust Svc. people? How do they explain the three grader theory and then that Joe looked at it himself and issued a grade?
Like I said, I don't like stirring they pot, but I think at this point, it's warranted. >>
Good questions. Will we ever hear an answer?
<< <i>I'm a level headed guy here but I think after this much strife we need more of an explanation. Has Joe reprimanded the Cust Svc. people? How do they explain the three grader theory and then that Joe looked at it himself and issued a grade?
Like I said, I don't like stirring they pot, but I think at this point, it's warranted. >>
I agree I would like to hear what happened and how this went down... I was hoping Joe would send more information in his e-mail it was very short and just said your card is now a 9.
<< <i>Okay, now I'm cool sending in mine (soon). Hopefully, I won't have to go through the same jazz. Maybe I should send a pre-emptive email to him? >>
I would just copy and print out this whole thread and put it in with your submission!
You keeping or selling?