There is the strong possibility that a good trim job is simply impossible to distinguish from the factory trim job? All cards were cut/trimmed at the factory. A replication of that cut will give anybody any grader a very hard time. Of course, the graders will say, "we know what to look for in that case." Well...
You guys do realize this, right? I mean, you all have subbed cards multiple times to PSA haven't you? Does the fact that it's a Jordan rookie somehow make it different? I'm bewildered by the uproar over this one card when grading has never been all that consistent. Just crack and resub.
Interesting Article on CU's financial troubles. Interesting, I PM'd a fellow board member earlier today regarding what I thought was an interestin trend to their balance sheet. PSA as an entity might be performing very well. It certainly would have strong appeal to a private equity in a sale, as the BRAND is very strong, but CU as a whole is bleeding cash! This company will not survive if it continues to blow through cash like it did in the 4th quarter of 2008. Kind of scary!
<< <i>Matt I think the problem was with them buying that gem and diamond service. >>
I admittedly dont know much about the other entities that make up the Collector's Universe profile, but I do know how to read a balance sheet, and CU is blowing through operating capital. If they dont do something to reverse that trend, they will be in serious trouble. I would love to know what the "poison pill" reference made in the column is all about.
I'd agree that only 1 person looked at this card, though my understanding is that PSA will spend more time on a card like this one than they do on most others...No question that graders make mistakes and that grading is a very subjective field...especially when you consider the situation with the shorties in 75 mini holders...my guess is that Joe O. will grade the card after reviewing it, as the card came directly from a box sold by Steve Hart who is a PSA representative himself. To reject this card is to essentially say that his product is tainted, and I can't believe they would do that based on the group rip thread on this very board..hope this works out for you!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I didn't read that specific article, I did read one the other day where a stock holder with 8% holdings was demanding CU sell itself. In that article it blamed the current mess on the buying of the colored gems and diamond grading service.
As far as I'm concerned the cards don't change, they remain whatever grade they are regardless of who is running the show, or if there even is a show.
In the late 70's (I think) a company named Hallmark graded coins, it went bellyup yet coins in Hallmark holders are still desirable to this day.
<< <i>As far as I'm concerned the cards don't change, they remain whatever grade they are regardless of >>
Steve, I agree! PSA is a very strong brand, if made available, I feel like you would see a private equity pick up that portion of CU rather quickly. Even if the company went belly up, I dont think there would be a tremendous effect on the brand, as they struck gold with the set registry.
"...To reject this card is to essentially say that his product is tainted, and I can't believe they would do that based on the group rip thread on this very board.."
/////////////////////////////////////
The challenge is that neither PSA nor BBCE know that the card claimed to have been pulled is the card submitted.
I believe it is the same card, but I cannot prove it.
That is why PSA has to say the card "is what it is." The card's provenance is meaningless, sadly.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i>This is only an issue because it was an 86 Jordan. If it was Joe Nobody we would not even be discussing this.
Sarcastic idiotic comments and analogies aside the grader felt it was trimmed.
Up to 3 people will look at card if need be.
Now if you want to act stupid and make idiotic comments go right ahead.
You sure as hell ain't fooling me.
Steve >>
The only reason this is an issue is this was one of the largest psa box breaks (that I can recall), if this was just a Jordan I subbed no one would really care. I think some people took some real interest in this whole break and are disappointed in the results.
<< <i>Interesting Article on CU's financial troubles. Interesting, I PM'd a fellow board member earlier today regarding what I thought was an interestin trend to their balance sheet. PSA as an entity might be performing very well. It certainly would have strong appeal to a private equity in a sale, as the BRAND is very strong, but CU as a whole is bleeding cash! This company will not survive if it continues to blow through cash like it did in the 4th quarter of 2008. Kind of scary! >>
This would explain the $5 - $7 specials every month with the quick turnaround times. It's likely an effort to boost cash flows from operations.
<< <i>The only reason this is an issue is this was one of the largest psa box breaks (that I can recall), if this was just a Jordan I subbed no one would really care. I think some people took some real interest in this whole break and are disappointed in the results. >>
Agreed, a LOT of people were interested in the break, including me. HOWEVER, MANY people on this board have been expressing their displeasure with the low grades they have been receiving the past 6 - 8 months and wondering if it has anything to do with "Crack and Resubmit" and increasing the revenues. I think the results of this grade swayed people quite a bit.
STAY HEALTHY!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
Like I said, what does PSA do now. If they grade the card now based upon the premise that it was pulled from a group rip on a purchase from Steve, they are putting more stock in the origin of the card and not the card itself (if you believe their 3 grader story). That is a problem on many fornts....The least of which that they cannot guarantee that it is a card pulled from the pack that Steve sold (sorry Leathtech, though I do believe you, I am speaking from PSA's point of view). They lose more credibility if they grade it now, IMO. That stinks for Leathtech, but a reality, nonetheless.
I would edit out links to any articles or quotes from said articles that could put a certain company in a bad light.
/ $0.02
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>Matt I think the problem was with them buying that gem and diamond service. >>
I admittedly dont know much about the other entities that make up the Collector's Universe profile, but I do know how to read a balance sheet, and CU is blowing through operating capital. If they dont do something to reverse that trend, they will be in serious trouble. I would love to know what the "poison pill" reference made in the column is all about. >>
They probably adopted some sort of sharholder's rights language which would either result in more shares being issued to existing sharowners in the result of a hostile takeover, or a conversion to perferred stock and enhanced voting rights in the event of a takeover attempt. In all honesty I am not against such a practice, as 2009 is going to be brutal for companies and if such positions will keep companies operating it is all for the better during this economic storm.
Yet another reason the yearly membership fee is redicilous, nevermind the "free" subs. You people pay a fee every year to have this happen? Ill just stick to the group subs for my PC.
"...To reject this card is to essentially say that his product is tainted, and I can't believe they would do that based on the group rip thread on this very board.."
/////////////////////////////////////
The challenge is that neither PSA nor BBCE know that the card claimed to have been pulled is the card submitted.
I believe it is the same card, but I cannot prove it.
That is why PSA has to say the card "is what it is." The card's provenance is meaningless, sadly.
Considering the promotion and the publicity surrounding the box break, I don't think the prevenance of this card should be considered meaningless once it is further reviewed by Joe O. The only reason for the the initial decision to stand in light of these facts is if PSA believes the card was switched out, which is HIGHLY unlikely, IMO. If that were the case, that would be quite an elaborate ruse perpetrated by the OP...in any even it makes you reconsider the wisdom of busting open high dollar packs, as in addition to the overwhelming odds of pulling a high dollar card, you're not even guaranteed the card will even be graded once its' pulled..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i> "...To reject this card is to essentially say that his product is tainted, and I can't believe they would do that based on the group rip thread on this very board.."
/////////////////////////////////////
The challenge is that neither PSA nor BBCE know that the card claimed to have been pulled is the card submitted.
I believe it is the same card, but I cannot prove it.
That is why PSA has to say the card "is what it is." The card's provenance is meaningless, sadly.
Considering the promotion and the publicity surrounding the box break, I don't think the prevenance of this card should be considered meaningless once it is further reviewed by Joe O. The only reason for the the initial decision to stand in light of these facts is if PSA believes the card was switched out, which is HIGHLY unlikely, IMO. If that were the case, that would be quite an elaborate ruse perpetrated by the OP...in any even it makes you reconsider the wisdom of busting open high dollar packs, something that Felicia has rightfully realized throughout this ordeal now, too, as in addition to the overwhelming odds of pulling a high dollar card, you may not even be able to grade the card upon submission. >>
I agree, but grading the card now sets a very bad precedent. What we don't need are any group rips of 1980 wax that 'yield' gemmy looking Henderson RC's, but which were actually cracked out of FGS holders.
To reiterate what Lee said, this is just how the deal works. Evidence of trimming is just that; evidence. It's not an iron clad guarantee that the card is trimmed, as anyone here should know by now. What the grader is telling you is that, after having reviewed it, they thought the card exhibited sufficient evidence of tampering to warrant an N1. If it just so happened that the factory cut happens to look like an after-market cut, well, hey-- to quote Confucious, 's**t happens'.
Most people here think that grading is a binary event-- either the card shows clear signs of altering, or it doesn't. And this just isn't how it works. Many, many cards exhibit 'some' signs of trimming, to the point where the grader may be 20% or 40% or 65% sure that it's been worked on, but that's NOT the same as being '100%' sure. In fact, it's not even close. To suggest, or insinuate, that PSA is being negligent because this particular card wasn't slabbed reveals a total lack of understanding of how this process is conducted.
If you guys want PSA to only kick back cards that the grader is 99% sure have been trimmed then you're going to see one hell of a lot of high dollar cards winding up in premium holders.Having PSA err on the side of caution is a great thing- unless it's your card their erring on. But that's the way the game works, and it's the way it's worked for as long as I've been around (2003), and is likely how it will work until PSA folds up shop. Again-- if this isn't a business model that anyone here is comfortable working with there are plenty of other TPG's which do not hold cards to this standard, and I'm sure they will be happy to work with any one of you going forward.
I pulled the 3rd. If more than one comes back the same way, then (and only then) we need to consider whether this investor who had the box monkeyed with the cards. Here's the think: THERE IS NO FREAKING WAY! I just opened those packs and wiped off the gum dust and smelled that new pack smell. These are virgin packs and that's all there is to it.
I'd agree that grading is definitely subjective and that legit cards get rejected all the time only to get holdered upon being resubmitted..it's similar to grading coins where certain coins may show signs of a long-ago cleaning or altering, and PCGS will usually err on the side of caution, and I'm fine with that...I just think that in this particular case there is a unique ans somewhat extenuating set of circumstances that may/should be resolved in the OP's favor upon further review by Joe O...cards are reviewed and grades are changed all the time due to any number of reasons.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I'd agree that grading is definitely subjective and that legit cards get rejected all the time only to get holdered upon being resubmitted..it's similar to grading coins where certain coins may show signs of a long-ago cleaning or altering, and PCGS will usually err on the side of caution, and I'm fine with that...I just think that in this particular case there is a unique ans somewhat extenuating set of circumstances that may/should be resolved in the OP's favor upon further review by Joe O...cards are reviewed and grades are changed all the time due to any number of reasons. >>
Funny thing, but I was mulling that very point after I posted and I agree. If this decision to kick it back N1 was borderline then this should sway things in the submitter's favor.
#1 I bought a pack of the 75 minis from the break, I sent in the best of the pack card #554 Rich Gossage, Cert#14838867, NM-8, so the theory of zero 8's coming back is false.
#2 I love the CS response that if the card was resubbed it would grade the same...LOL...I would be willing to bet that 50% at best would grade the same of ANY grade
#3 From one of the earlier group breaks, I sent in a 78 Robin Yount, 50/50 centering, four sharp corners, I get an EOT, fresh from pack.
#4 I agree that MSR/EOT should both get vouchers, but honestly, would you rather have a PSA 1 Mantle RC or a nicely centered, sharp corners, raw mantle that may be either MSR or EOT?
Wow, this thread could win an award for the most sub plots ever from a single post!
Is this really the card from the wax rip? Is BBCE 100% reliable for detecting unopened material? Did the postman steal it? Did the graders switch it? Can the graders tell EOT from Min size? Do three graders really look at cards? Can graders really tell if a cards been trimmed? Does customer service at CU know what their policy is? Will Joe handle this problem? Is PSA in financial trouble? Are trolls popping up in this thread to trash others? Is there a PSA plot to kick back cards so we'll have to pay to resubmit? Do the larger dealers get easier grades and get more trimmed cards through? Is Joe's last name Orlando because he spends too much time on the Florida beaches? ;-)
Please stay tuned ... for absolutely no solid answers to any of these questions!
Seriously though ... We pay a few dollars per card to get some guys opinion on it's condition and to get it put into a holder. Period.
Graders are not scientists conducting in depth research on our cards. They basically flip it around a few times, stare at the corners under a loop, and give it their best guesstimate of what condition they think it's in. They do this for many hours a day, every day, as their job. I can't even imagine how tedious and boring that job could be.
The real problem is that there is absolutely no way to positively tell if a card has been trimmed. Cards were cut using a sharpened blade coming down on a big stack of cardboard, that was just some other guys boring job back in the 1970's. The cutting machines used, and the printers doing these jobs, left so many variances in size, errors and quality of cuts ... that more often than not, no human can tell between a cut that was made 30 years ago or 30 minutes ago. It's just not always possible to tell.
The graders tend to error on the side of caution, which is a good thing. If they didn't we'd have more trimmed cards flooding the hobby and everyone would be screaming over that.
PSA is not in the business of detecting trimming. They are in the business of judging a cards overall condition and encapsulating the card. That's what we pay for and that's what we get.
They do state that they will not knowingly encapsulate an altered card, and it's obvious from the amount of min size and trimmed rejects that come back, that they attempt to do that ..... but to think that the graders are doing anything more than just giving you an educated guess, is naive at best.
It's a flawed system from the get go, and even years from now when computers take over the grading process, it still won't be 100% accurate. It never will.
Most collectors eventually reach a point where they either decide they can live with the flawed system the way it is .... or if they can't, they usually get out of graded card game.
It's frustrating, because we just want a system that works. But unfortunately, it doesn't exist.
Who would have guessed, years ago when grading first came onto the scene, that it could raise the blood pressure of soooo many guys ... that had decided to collect little pieces of expensive cardboard .... With pictures of guys on them.
<< <i>Random thoughts on this entire thread I just read
#1 I bought a pack of the 75 minis from the break, I sent in the best of the pack card #554 Rich Gossage, Cert#14838867, NM-8, so the theory of zero 8's coming back is false.
#2 I love the CS response that if the card was resubbed it would grade the same...LOL...I would be willing to bet that 50% at best would grade the same of ANY grade
#3 From one of the earlier group breaks, I sent in a 78 Robin Yount, 50/50 centering, four sharp corners, I get an EOT, fresh from pack.
#4 I agree that MSR/EOT should both get vouchers, but honestly, would you rather have a PSA 1 Mantle RC or a nicely centered, sharp corners, raw mantle that may be either MSR or EOT? >>
I disagree on #4. There should NOT be vouchers for EOT. Otherwise people would trim all day with nothing to lose.
Also, from the '75 rip, I received a few 8s and even a 9 from my packs.
<< <i>Wow, this thread could win an award for the most sub plots ever from a single post!
Is this really the card from the wax rip? Is BBCE 100% reliable for detecting unopened material? Did the postman steal it? Did the graders switch it? Can the graders tell EOT from Min size? Do three graders really look at cards? Can graders really tell if a cards been trimmed? Does customer service at CU know what their policy is? Will Joe handle this problem? Is PSA in financial trouble? Are trolls popping up in this thread to trash others? Is there a PSA plot to kick back cards so we'll have to pay to resubmit? Do the larger dealers get easier grades and get more trimmed cards through? Is Joe's last name Orlando because he spends too much time on the Florida beaches? ;-)
Please stay tuned ... for absolutely no solid answers to any of these questions!
Seriously though ... We pay a few dollars per card to get some guys opinion on it's condition and to get it put into a holder. Period.
Graders are not scientists conducting in depth research on our cards. They basically flip it around a few times, stare at the corners under a loop, and give it their best guesstimate of what condition they think it's in. They do this for many hours a day, every day, as their job. I can't even imagine how tedious and boring that job could be.
The real problem is that there is absolutely no way to positively tell if a card has been trimmed. Cards were cut using a sharpened blade coming down on a big stack of cardboard, that was just some other guys boring job back in the 1970's. The cutting machines used, and the printers doing these jobs, left so many variances in size, errors and quality of cuts ... that more often than not, no human can tell between a cut that was made 30 years ago or 30 minutes ago. It's just not always possible to tell.
The graders tend to error on the side of caution, which is a good thing. If they didn't we'd have more trimmed cards flooding the hobby and everyone would be screaming over that.
PSA is not in the business of detecting trimming. They are in the business of judging a cards overall condition and encapsulating the card. That's what we pay for and that's what we get.
They do state that they will not knowingly encapsulate an altered card, and it's obvious from the amount of min size and trimmed rejects that come back, that they attempt to do that ..... but to think that the graders are doing anything more than just giving you an educated guess, is naive at best.
It's a flawed system from the get go, and even years from now when computers take over the grading process, it still won't be 100% accurate. It never will.
Most collectors eventually reach a point where they either decide they can live with the flawed system the way it is .... or if they can't, they usually get out of graded card game.
It's frustrating, because we just want a system that works. But unfortunately, it doesn't exist.
Who would have guessed, years ago when grading first came onto the scene, that it could raise the blood pressure of soooo many guys ... that had decided to collect little pieces of expensive cardboard .... With pictures of guys on them.
Mike >>
You are right in all of your post but I really think this 1986 Fleer Jordan Rookie was different than any other subbed lately... This was one PSA had to get right! Everyone was watching the box break and everyone knew the card was being sent in to be graded. All your assumptions about grading are correct - bottom line is PSA's business is built on their customers knowing they know their stuff (that's what we pay for). PSA flat out dropped the ball on this one and got it wrong - unfortunately for them it happened on a very public card that a lot of us were interested in following.
This was one of those cases that IF the card was small, they should have called it MSR instead of EOT. If they're calling it EVIDENCE of trimming, there should be some kind of EVIDENCE. If not, then Minimum Size Required. We all realize this has happened in the past, but he's right, this one was a card they needed to get right the first time. It was a very public and anticipated sub. If they would have came back and said MSR, we would have just said, aww crap, that sucks, better send it in for a retry. But EOT is accusing a couple of very reputable people of trimming their cards. HUGE difference.
<< <i>Wow, this thread could win an award for the most sub plots ever from a single post!
Is this really the card from the wax rip? Is BBCE 100% reliable for detecting unopened material? Did the postman steal it? Did the graders switch it? Can the graders tell EOT from Min size? Do three graders really look at cards? Can graders really tell if a cards been trimmed? Does customer service at CU know what their policy is? Will Joe handle this problem? Is PSA in financial trouble? Are trolls popping up in this thread to trash others? Is there a PSA plot to kick back cards so we'll have to pay to resubmit? Do the larger dealers get easier grades and get more trimmed cards through? Is Joe's last name Orlando because he spends too much time on the Florida beaches? ;-)
Please stay tuned ... for absolutely no solid answers to any of these questions!
Seriously though ... We pay a few dollars per card to get some guys opinion on it's condition and to get it put into a holder. Period.
Graders are not scientists conducting in depth research on our cards. They basically flip it around a few times, stare at the corners under a loop, and give it their best guesstimate of what condition they think it's in. They do this for many hours a day, every day, as their job. I can't even imagine how tedious and boring that job could be.
The real problem is that there is absolutely no way to positively tell if a card has been trimmed. Cards were cut using a sharpened blade coming down on a big stack of cardboard, that was just some other guys boring job back in the 1970's. The cutting machines used, and the printers doing these jobs, left so many variances in size, errors and quality of cuts ... that more often than not, no human can tell between a cut that was made 30 years ago or 30 minutes ago. It's just not always possible to tell.
The graders tend to error on the side of caution, which is a good thing. If they didn't we'd have more trimmed cards flooding the hobby and everyone would be screaming over that.
PSA is not in the business of detecting trimming. They are in the business of judging a cards overall condition and encapsulating the card. That's what we pay for and that's what we get.
They do state that they will not knowingly encapsulate an altered card, and it's obvious from the amount of min size and trimmed rejects that come back, that they attempt to do that ..... but to think that the graders are doing anything more than just giving you an educated guess, is naive at best.
It's a flawed system from the get go, and even years from now when computers take over the grading process, it still won't be 100% accurate. It never will.
Most collectors eventually reach a point where they either decide they can live with the flawed system the way it is .... or if they can't, they usually get out of graded card game.
It's frustrating, because we just want a system that works. But unfortunately, it doesn't exist.
Who would have guessed, years ago when grading first came onto the scene, that it could raise the blood pressure of soooo many guys ... that had decided to collect little pieces of expensive cardboard .... With pictures of guys on them.
Mike >>
You are right in all of your post but I really think this 1986 Fleer Jordan Rookie was different than any other subbed lately... This was one PSA had to get right! Everyone was watching the box break and everyone knew the card was being sent in to be graded. All your assumptions about grading are correct - bottom line is PSA's business is built on their customers knowing they know their stuff (that's what we pay for). PSA flat out dropped the ball on this one and got it wrong - unfortunately for them it happened on a very public card that a lot of us were interested in following. >>
I think it's silly to think that PSA should dedicate time and resources to making sure their graders pay special attention to cards that were obtained via you guys' group rips.
Seriously though ... We pay a few dollars per card to get some guys opinion on it's condition and to get it put into a holder. Period.
Graders are not scientists conducting in depth research on our cards. They basically flip it around a few times, stare at the corners under a loop, and give it their best guesstimate of what condition they think it's in. They do this for many hours a day, every day, as their job. I can't even imagine how tedious and boring that job could be.
Shoulda - much of your post I agree with, but I disagree somewhat with the above portion of your statement. Most people on this board probably pay on average a minimum of $7.00 per card when there is a special. (That includes all costs) So if they are shipping 50 - 100 cards it's a decent amount of money. Second, no, the graders are not scientists, but PSA and other TPG hold themselves out as professionals/experts in the field and they should be judged that way. They should NOT be judged as just another guy giving you his opinion. It should NOT be a GUESSTIMATE. If the job is boring and tedious AND YOU CANNOT PERFORM IT AT THE HIGH LEVEL IT SHOULD BE PERFORMED then get another job! Again, I agree that graders are not scientists and human error will come into play on some cards. But, if a TPG is holding itself out to be a PROFESSIONAL in the field, you MUST produce PROFESSIONAL results. JMHO.
STAY HEALTHY!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
The first 2 things I am going to say are how I truly feel, and then I am going to play devil's advocate.
Jasen is a quality board member that I feel would never send a knowingly trimmed card to PSA. BBCE is a quality seller of authentic unopened material, and I buy from him almost exclusively.
Those comments being said, there is no way that anyone but Jasen knows that it is a Jordan he pulled from a pack, and even though Jasen knows it was pulled right from the pack, he has 0% proof of such a fact. That is why the "PSA has to believe it because it happened on their own message board" angle is not, and cannot be, rock solid.
Let's say that I have a raw 1986 basketball set which has a knowingly (ever so slightly) trimmed Jordan in it holding it's place for me until I can find an untrimmed example. Now lets say I participate in this group rip and pull a Jordan. I immediately take the legit Jordan and put it in my raw set, then take the knowingly trimmed Jordan out of the set and scan it for the board to see. Then I send it to PSA, and when it comes back EOT I have the power of the message board community behind me for what appear to be obvious reasons.
I AM NOT SAYING JASEN DID ANY OF THIS.....but the sad truth is that PSA could care less who Jasen is, or how he acquired the Jordan.
<< <i>Wow, this thread could win an award for the most sub plots ever from a single post!
Is this really the card from the wax rip? Is BBCE 100% reliable for detecting unopened material? Did the postman steal it? Did the graders switch it? Can the graders tell EOT from Min size? Do three graders really look at cards? Can graders really tell if a cards been trimmed? Does customer service at CU know what their policy is? Will Joe handle this problem? Is PSA in financial trouble? Are trolls popping up in this thread to trash others? Is there a PSA plot to kick back cards so we'll have to pay to resubmit? Do the larger dealers get easier grades and get more trimmed cards through? Is Joe's last name Orlando because he spends too much time on the Florida beaches? ;-)
Please stay tuned ... for absolutely no solid answers to any of these questions!
Seriously though ... We pay a few dollars per card to get some guys opinion on it's condition and to get it put into a holder. Period.
Graders are not scientists conducting in depth research on our cards. They basically flip it around a few times, stare at the corners under a loop, and give it their best guesstimate of what condition they think it's in. They do this for many hours a day, every day, as their job. I can't even imagine how tedious and boring that job could be.
The real problem is that there is absolutely no way to positively tell if a card has been trimmed. Cards were cut using a sharpened blade coming down on a big stack of cardboard, that was just some other guys boring job back in the 1970's. The cutting machines used, and the printers doing these jobs, left so many variances in size, errors and quality of cuts ... that more often than not, no human can tell between a cut that was made 30 years ago or 30 minutes ago. It's just not always possible to tell.
The graders tend to error on the side of caution, which is a good thing. If they didn't we'd have more trimmed cards flooding the hobby and everyone would be screaming over that.
PSA is not in the business of detecting trimming. They are in the business of judging a cards overall condition and encapsulating the card. That's what we pay for and that's what we get.
They do state that they will not knowingly encapsulate an altered card, and it's obvious from the amount of min size and trimmed rejects that come back, that they attempt to do that ..... but to think that the graders are doing anything more than just giving you an educated guess, is naive at best.
It's a flawed system from the get go, and even years from now when computers take over the grading process, it still won't be 100% accurate. It never will.
Most collectors eventually reach a point where they either decide they can live with the flawed system the way it is .... or if they can't, they usually get out of graded card game.
It's frustrating, because we just want a system that works. But unfortunately, it doesn't exist.
Who would have guessed, years ago when grading first came onto the scene, that it could raise the blood pressure of soooo many guys ... that had decided to collect little pieces of expensive cardboard .... With pictures of guys on them.
Mike >>
You are right in all of your post but I really think this 1986 Fleer Jordan Rookie was different than any other subbed lately... This was one PSA had to get right! Everyone was watching the box break and everyone knew the card was being sent in to be graded. All your assumptions about grading are correct - bottom line is PSA's business is built on their customers knowing they know their stuff (that's what we pay for). PSA flat out dropped the ball on this one and got it wrong - unfortunately for them it happened on a very public card that a lot of us were interested in following. >>
I think it's silly to think that PSA should dedicate time and resources to making sure their graders pay special attention to cards that were obtained via you guys' group rips. >>
BP - I disagree by having an active community PSA has shown they are willing to do stuf for us... come on we've done 2 group subs of over 2,000 cards!
<< <i>The first 2 things I am going to say are how I truly feel, and then I am going to play devil's advocate.
Jasen is a quality board member that I feel would never send a knowingly trimmed card to PSA. BBCE is a quality seller of authentic unopened material, and I buy from him almost exclusively.
Those comments being said, there is no way that anyone but Jasen knows that it is a Jordan he pulled from a pack, and even though Jasen knows it was pulled right from the pack, he has 0% proof of such a fact. That is why the "PSA has to believe it because it happened on their own message board" angle is not, and cannot be, rock solid.
Let's say that I have a raw 1986 basketball set which has a knowingly (ever so slightly) trimmed Jordan in it holding it's place for me until I can find an untrimmed example. Now lets say I participate in this group rip and pull a Jordan. I immediately take the legit Jordan and put it in my raw set, then take the knowingly trimmed Jordan out of the set and scan it for the board to see. Then I send it to PSA, and when it comes back EOT I have the power of the message board community behind me for what appear to be obvious reasons.
I AM NOT SAYING JASEN DID ANY OF THIS.....but the sad truth is that PSA could care less who Jasen is, or how he acquired the Jordan. >>
By psa having a message board and active community I guess they have to live with a community reaction... is you senerio possible, you bet it is! Did that happen no it did not (and I know your not suggesting it did Nick).
I think the larger issue is what is EOT? I think it's become an easy out for PSA I think they need to say we looked at the card and it appears the left board has been trimmed down. Now if PSA says this what can I say? But if the card is just a little smaller than normal cards I should get a minimum size voucher.
How long would it really take for psa to give us more info? The could have pre formatted responses and only have to check a box... it's not like I would be asking for a report.
<< <i>I think the larger issue is what is EOT? I think it's become an easy out for PSA I think they need to say we looked at the card and it appears the left board has been trimmed down. Now if PSA says this what can I say? But if the card is just a little smaller than normal cards I should get a minimum size voucher.
How long would it really take for psa to give us more info? The could have pre formatted responses and only have to check a box... it's not like I would be asking for a report. >>
I completely agree. I need to know what a grader sees that would give him/her an indication if the card has been trimmed. ESPECIALLY if the card isn't smaller than normal. I don't think that's too much to ask for.
<< <i>Seriously though ... We pay a few dollars per card to get some guys opinion on it's condition and to get it put into a holder. Period.
Graders are not scientists conducting in depth research on our cards. They basically flip it around a few times, stare at the corners under a loop, and give it their best guesstimate of what condition they think it's in. They do this for many hours a day, every day, as their job. I can't even imagine how tedious and boring that job could be.
Shoulda - much of your post I agree with, but I disagree somewhat with the above portion of your statement. Most people on this board probably pay on average a minimum of $7.00 per card when there is a special. (That includes all costs) So if they are shipping 50 - 100 cards it's a decent amount of money. Second, no, the graders are not scientists, but PSA and other TPG hold themselves out as professionals/experts in the field and they should be judged that way. They should NOT be judged as just another guy giving you his opinion. It should NOT be a GUESSTIMATE. If the job is boring and tedious AND YOU CANNOT PERFORM IT AT THE HIGH LEVEL IT SHOULD BE PERFORMED then get another job! Again, I agree that graders are not scientists and human error will come into play on some cards. But, if a TPG is holding itself out to be a PROFESSIONAL in the field, you MUST produce PROFESSIONAL results. JMHO. >>
Doug,
I agree with your disagreement. I also think since we pay for a service we should get the best service possible. I just think that a lot of collectors don't seem to understand .... that unfortunately, this is about as good as it's going to get.
There's just no such thing as a Professional Card Board Trimming Analyst. There's no college courses to take on the subject and there's no technology out there that can detect it ... especially for only $6, $7 or $8 per card.
The very best PSA can do is to hire some guys, train them in some of the tell tale signs of what to look for, and hope they do an adequate enough job.
Sure, they can constantly retrain, try to hone their skills and have more guys look at each card ... but even if you had 100 graders looking at each card, you'd still have mixed opinions and nothing better than educated guesses.
It's not an exact science. Heck, It's not even science. It's just some guy named Bob, that answered an ad in the Help wanted ads. He gets paid to stare at cards all day and give his opinion.
The best we can do ... is hope he blinks once or twice while he's looking at our tweeners.
Comments
I guess the first one must have been "unsure"
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
Positive Transactions - tennesseebanker, Ahmanfan, Donruss, Colebear, CDsNuts, rbdjr1, Downtown1974, yankeeno7, drewsef, mnolan, mrbud60, msassin, RipublicaninMass, AkbarClone, rustywilly, lsutigers1973, julen23 and nam812, plus many others...
<< <i>What does it take 3 moderators to make this thread go poof?
I guess the first one must have been "unsure" >>
They are waiting for the Minimum Size Requirement to be met before they Trim it
<< <i>Is PSA having financial troubles? >>
Uh, I don't know but CU stock is definitely VERY LOW at $3.44 per share, compared to $10.06 a year ago. Blah.
CINCINNATI REDS
1976 - 1991 - Topps PSA 10
1983 & 1985 Fleer PSA 10
1985 Donruss PSA 10
Blue Ink Signed Topps Cards
Game-Used Bats/Jerseys
OPC PSA 10
MC & OC Cards
OTHER:
Eric Davis Anything
Votto, Willingham, Cantu, Doumit, Gomes
Baron Davis Game Used Jersey
The trimmers know the same thing.
5 PSA 7s
55 PSA 8s
10 PSA 8.5s
20 PSA 9s
5 EOT
5 MSR
You guys do realize this, right? I mean, you all have subbed cards multiple times to PSA haven't you? Does the fact that it's a Jordan rookie somehow make it different? I'm bewildered by the uproar over this one card when grading has never been all that consistent. Just crack and resub.
be discussing this.
Sarcastic idiotic comments and analogies aside the grader felt it was trimmed.
Up to 3 people will look at card if need be.
Now if you want to act stupid and make idiotic comments go right ahead.
You sure as hell ain't fooling me.
Steve
Steve
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
Positive Transactions - tennesseebanker, Ahmanfan, Donruss, Colebear, CDsNuts, rbdjr1, Downtown1974, yankeeno7, drewsef, mnolan, mrbud60, msassin, RipublicaninMass, AkbarClone, rustywilly, lsutigers1973, julen23 and nam812, plus many others...
Steve
Once they bail out on that they may recover.
Steve
<< <i>Matt I think the problem was with them buying that gem and diamond service. >>
I admittedly dont know much about the other entities that make up the Collector's Universe profile, but I do know how to read a balance sheet, and CU is blowing through operating capital. If they dont do something to reverse that trend, they will be in serious trouble. I would love to know what the "poison pill" reference made in the column is all about.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
holdings was demanding CU sell itself. In that article it blamed the current mess on the buying
of the colored gems and diamond grading service.
As far as I'm concerned the cards don't change, they remain whatever grade they are regardless of
who is running the show, or if there even is a show.
In the late 70's (I think) a company named Hallmark graded coins, it went bellyup yet coins in Hallmark holders
are still desirable to this day.
Steve
<< <i>As far as I'm concerned the cards don't change, they remain whatever grade they are regardless of >>
Steve, I agree! PSA is a very strong brand, if made available, I feel like you would see a private equity pick up that portion of CU rather quickly. Even if the company went belly up, I dont think there would be a tremendous effect on the brand, as they struck gold with the set registry.
/////////////////////////////////////
The challenge is that neither PSA nor BBCE know
that the card claimed to have been pulled is the
card submitted.
I believe it is the same card, but I cannot prove it.
That is why PSA has to say the card "is what it is."
The card's provenance is meaningless, sadly.
<< <i>This is only an issue because it was an 86 Jordan. If it was Joe Nobody we would not even
be discussing this.
Sarcastic idiotic comments and analogies aside the grader felt it was trimmed.
Up to 3 people will look at card if need be.
Now if you want to act stupid and make idiotic comments go right ahead.
You sure as hell ain't fooling me.
Steve >>
The only reason this is an issue is this was one of the largest psa box breaks (that I can recall), if this was just a Jordan I subbed no one would really care. I think some people took some real interest in this whole break and are disappointed in the results.
prior comments were silly...
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
Positive Transactions - tennesseebanker, Ahmanfan, Donruss, Colebear, CDsNuts, rbdjr1, Downtown1974, yankeeno7, drewsef, mnolan, mrbud60, msassin, RipublicaninMass, AkbarClone, rustywilly, lsutigers1973, julen23 and nam812, plus many others...
<< <i>Interesting Article on CU's financial troubles. Interesting, I PM'd a fellow board member earlier today regarding what I thought was an interestin trend to their balance sheet. PSA as an entity might be performing very well. It certainly would have strong appeal to a private equity in a sale, as the BRAND is very strong, but CU as a whole is bleeding cash! This company will not survive if it continues to blow through cash like it did in the 4th quarter of 2008. Kind of scary! >>
This would explain the $5 - $7 specials every month with the quick turnaround times. It's likely an effort to boost cash flows from operations.
Steve
<< <i>The only reason this is an issue is this was one of the largest psa box breaks (that I can recall), if this was just a Jordan I subbed no one would really care. I think some people took some real interest in this whole break and are disappointed in the results. >>
Agreed, a LOT of people were interested in the break, including me. HOWEVER, MANY people on this board have been expressing their displeasure with the low grades they have been receiving the past 6 - 8 months and wondering if it has anything to do with "Crack and Resubmit" and increasing the revenues. I think the results of this grade swayed people quite a bit.
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
/ $0.02
1957 Topps 99% 7.40 GPA
Hank Aaron Basic PSA 7-8(75%)
<< <i>
<< <i>Matt I think the problem was with them buying that gem and diamond service. >>
I admittedly dont know much about the other entities that make up the Collector's Universe profile, but I do know how to read a balance sheet, and CU is blowing through operating capital. If they dont do something to reverse that trend, they will be in serious trouble. I would love to know what the "poison pill" reference made in the column is all about. >>
They probably adopted some sort of sharholder's rights language which would either result in more shares being issued to existing sharowners in the result of a hostile takeover, or a conversion to perferred stock and enhanced voting rights in the event of a takeover attempt. In all honesty I am not against such a practice, as 2009 is going to be brutal for companies and if such positions will keep companies operating it is all for the better during this economic storm.
Steve
Bosox1976
/////////////////////////////////////
The challenge is that neither PSA nor BBCE know
that the card claimed to have been pulled is the
card submitted.
I believe it is the same card, but I cannot prove it.
That is why PSA has to say the card "is what it is."
The card's provenance is meaningless, sadly.
Considering the promotion and the publicity surrounding the box break, I don't think the prevenance of this card should be considered meaningless once it is further reviewed by Joe O. The only reason for the the initial decision to stand in light of these facts is if PSA believes the card was switched out, which is HIGHLY unlikely, IMO. If that were the case, that would be quite an elaborate ruse perpetrated by the OP...in any even it makes you reconsider the wisdom of busting open high dollar packs, as in addition to the overwhelming odds of pulling a high dollar card, you're not even guaranteed the card will even be graded once its' pulled..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
i agree with you...resubmit.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
<< <i> "...To reject this card is to essentially say that his product is tainted, and I can't believe they would do that based on the group rip thread on this very board.."
/////////////////////////////////////
The challenge is that neither PSA nor BBCE know
that the card claimed to have been pulled is the
card submitted.
I believe it is the same card, but I cannot prove it.
That is why PSA has to say the card "is what it is."
The card's provenance is meaningless, sadly.
Considering the promotion and the publicity surrounding the box break, I don't think the prevenance of this card should be considered meaningless once it is further reviewed by Joe O. The only reason for the the initial decision to stand in light of these facts is if PSA believes the card was switched out, which is HIGHLY unlikely, IMO. If that were the case, that would be quite an elaborate ruse perpetrated by the OP...in any even it makes you reconsider the wisdom of busting open high dollar packs, something that Felicia has rightfully realized throughout this ordeal now, too, as in addition to the overwhelming odds of pulling a high dollar card, you may not even be able to grade the card upon submission. >>
I agree, but grading the card now sets a very bad precedent. What we don't need are any group rips of 1980 wax that 'yield' gemmy looking Henderson RC's, but which were actually cracked out of FGS holders.
To reiterate what Lee said, this is just how the deal works. Evidence of trimming is just that; evidence. It's not an iron clad guarantee that the card is trimmed, as anyone here should know by now. What the grader is telling you is that, after having reviewed it, they thought the card exhibited sufficient evidence of tampering to warrant an N1. If it just so happened that the factory cut happens to look like an after-market cut, well, hey-- to quote Confucious, 's**t happens'.
Most people here think that grading is a binary event-- either the card shows clear signs of altering, or it doesn't. And this just isn't how it works. Many, many cards exhibit 'some' signs of trimming, to the point where the grader may be 20% or 40% or 65% sure that it's been worked on, but that's NOT the same as being '100%' sure. In fact, it's not even close. To suggest, or insinuate, that PSA is being negligent because this particular card wasn't slabbed reveals a total lack of understanding of how this process is conducted.
If you guys want PSA to only kick back cards that the grader is 99% sure have been trimmed then you're going to see one hell of a lot of high dollar cards winding up in premium holders.Having PSA err on the side of caution is a great thing- unless it's your card their erring on. But that's the way the game works, and it's the way it's worked for as long as I've been around (2003), and is likely how it will work until PSA folds up shop. Again-- if this isn't a business model that anyone here is comfortable working with there are plenty of other TPG's which do not hold cards to this standard, and I'm sure they will be happy to work with any one of you going forward.
So, should I submit to BVG instead?
I'd agree that grading is definitely subjective and that legit cards get rejected all the time only to get holdered upon being resubmitted..it's similar to grading coins where certain coins may show signs of a long-ago cleaning or altering, and PCGS will usually err on the side of caution, and I'm fine with that...I just think that in this particular case there is a unique ans somewhat extenuating set of circumstances that may/should be resolved in the OP's favor upon further review by Joe O...cards are reviewed and grades are changed all the time due to any number of reasons.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Does a BGS Jordan still outsell a PSA Jordan? >>
I think this depends on the sub-grades of the BGS card, but I think the BGS graded cards do have more value.
"Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it"
<< <i>Boo,
I'd agree that grading is definitely subjective and that legit cards get rejected all the time only to get holdered upon being resubmitted..it's similar to grading coins where certain coins may show signs of a long-ago cleaning or altering, and PCGS will usually err on the side of caution, and I'm fine with that...I just think that in this particular case there is a unique ans somewhat extenuating set of circumstances that may/should be resolved in the OP's favor upon further review by Joe O...cards are reviewed and grades are changed all the time due to any number of reasons. >>
Funny thing, but I was mulling that very point after I posted and I agree. If this decision to kick it back N1 was borderline then this should sway things in the submitter's favor.
#1 I bought a pack of the 75 minis from the break, I sent in the best of the pack card #554 Rich Gossage, Cert#14838867, NM-8, so the theory of zero 8's coming back is false.
#2 I love the CS response that if the card was resubbed it would grade the same...LOL...I would be willing to bet that 50% at best would grade the same of ANY grade
#3 From one of the earlier group breaks, I sent in a 78 Robin Yount, 50/50 centering, four sharp corners, I get an EOT, fresh from pack.
#4 I agree that MSR/EOT should both get vouchers, but honestly, would you rather have a PSA 1 Mantle RC or a nicely centered, sharp corners, raw mantle that may be either MSR or EOT?
Geez I can't believe I said that.
Steve
<< <i>Boo's above comment is spot on.
Geez I can't believe I said that.
Steve >>
exactly what I was thinking on both counts.
Is this really the card from the wax rip? Is BBCE 100% reliable for detecting unopened material? Did the postman steal it? Did the graders switch it? Can the graders tell EOT from Min size? Do three graders really look at cards? Can graders really tell if a cards been trimmed? Does customer service at CU know what their policy is? Will Joe handle this problem? Is PSA in financial trouble? Are trolls popping up in this thread to trash others? Is there a PSA plot to kick back cards so we'll have to pay to resubmit? Do the larger dealers get easier grades and get more trimmed cards through? Is Joe's last name Orlando because he spends too much time on the Florida beaches? ;-)
Please stay tuned ... for absolutely no solid answers to any of these questions!
Seriously though ... We pay a few dollars per card to get some guys opinion on it's condition and to get it put into a holder. Period.
Graders are not scientists conducting in depth research on our cards. They basically flip it around a few times, stare at the corners under a loop, and give it their best guesstimate of what condition they think it's in. They do this for many hours a day, every day, as their job. I can't even imagine how tedious and boring that job could be.
The real problem is that there is absolutely no way to positively tell if a card has been trimmed. Cards were cut using a sharpened blade coming down on a big stack of cardboard, that was just some other guys boring job back in the 1970's. The cutting machines used, and the printers doing these jobs, left so many variances in size, errors and quality of cuts ... that more often than not, no human can tell between a cut that was made 30 years ago or 30 minutes ago. It's just not always possible to tell.
The graders tend to error on the side of caution, which is a good thing. If they didn't we'd have more trimmed cards flooding the hobby and everyone would be screaming over that.
PSA is not in the business of detecting trimming. They are in the business of judging a cards overall condition and encapsulating the card. That's what we pay for and that's what we get.
They do state that they will not knowingly encapsulate an altered card, and it's obvious from the amount of min size and trimmed rejects that come back, that they attempt to do that ..... but to think that the graders are doing anything more than just giving you an educated guess, is naive at best.
It's a flawed system from the get go, and even years from now when computers take over the grading process, it still won't be 100% accurate. It never will.
Most collectors eventually reach a point where they either decide they can live with the flawed system the way it is .... or if they can't, they usually get out of graded card game.
It's frustrating, because we just want a system that works. But unfortunately, it doesn't exist.
Who would have guessed, years ago when grading first came onto the scene, that it could raise the blood pressure of soooo many guys ... that had decided to collect little pieces of expensive cardboard .... With pictures of guys on them.
Mike
<< <i>Random thoughts on this entire thread I just read
#1 I bought a pack of the 75 minis from the break, I sent in the best of the pack card #554 Rich Gossage, Cert#14838867, NM-8, so the theory of zero 8's coming back is false.
#2 I love the CS response that if the card was resubbed it would grade the same...LOL...I would be willing to bet that 50% at best would grade the same of ANY grade
#3 From one of the earlier group breaks, I sent in a 78 Robin Yount, 50/50 centering, four sharp corners, I get an EOT, fresh from pack.
#4 I agree that MSR/EOT should both get vouchers, but honestly, would you rather have a PSA 1 Mantle RC or a nicely centered, sharp corners, raw mantle that may be either MSR or EOT? >>
I disagree on #4. There should NOT be vouchers for EOT. Otherwise people would trim all day with nothing to lose.
Also, from the '75 rip, I received a few 8s and even a 9 from my packs.
<< <i>Wow, this thread could win an award for the most sub plots ever from a single post!
Is this really the card from the wax rip? Is BBCE 100% reliable for detecting unopened material? Did the postman steal it? Did the graders switch it? Can the graders tell EOT from Min size? Do three graders really look at cards? Can graders really tell if a cards been trimmed? Does customer service at CU know what their policy is? Will Joe handle this problem? Is PSA in financial trouble? Are trolls popping up in this thread to trash others? Is there a PSA plot to kick back cards so we'll have to pay to resubmit? Do the larger dealers get easier grades and get more trimmed cards through? Is Joe's last name Orlando because he spends too much time on the Florida beaches? ;-)
Please stay tuned ... for absolutely no solid answers to any of these questions!
Seriously though ... We pay a few dollars per card to get some guys opinion on it's condition and to get it put into a holder. Period.
Graders are not scientists conducting in depth research on our cards. They basically flip it around a few times, stare at the corners under a loop, and give it their best guesstimate of what condition they think it's in. They do this for many hours a day, every day, as their job. I can't even imagine how tedious and boring that job could be.
The real problem is that there is absolutely no way to positively tell if a card has been trimmed. Cards were cut using a sharpened blade coming down on a big stack of cardboard, that was just some other guys boring job back in the 1970's. The cutting machines used, and the printers doing these jobs, left so many variances in size, errors and quality of cuts ... that more often than not, no human can tell between a cut that was made 30 years ago or 30 minutes ago. It's just not always possible to tell.
The graders tend to error on the side of caution, which is a good thing. If they didn't we'd have more trimmed cards flooding the hobby and everyone would be screaming over that.
PSA is not in the business of detecting trimming. They are in the business of judging a cards overall condition and encapsulating the card. That's what we pay for and that's what we get.
They do state that they will not knowingly encapsulate an altered card, and it's obvious from the amount of min size and trimmed rejects that come back, that they attempt to do that ..... but to think that the graders are doing anything more than just giving you an educated guess, is naive at best.
It's a flawed system from the get go, and even years from now when computers take over the grading process, it still won't be 100% accurate. It never will.
Most collectors eventually reach a point where they either decide they can live with the flawed system the way it is .... or if they can't, they usually get out of graded card game.
It's frustrating, because we just want a system that works. But unfortunately, it doesn't exist.
Who would have guessed, years ago when grading first came onto the scene, that it could raise the blood pressure of soooo many guys ... that had decided to collect little pieces of expensive cardboard .... With pictures of guys on them.
Mike >>
You are right in all of your post but I really think this 1986 Fleer Jordan Rookie was different than any other subbed lately... This was one PSA had to get right! Everyone was watching the box break and everyone knew the card was being sent in to be graded. All your assumptions about grading are correct - bottom line is PSA's business is built on their customers knowing they know their stuff (that's what we pay for). PSA flat out dropped the ball on this one and got it wrong - unfortunately for them it happened on a very public card that a lot of us were interested in following.
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow, this thread could win an award for the most sub plots ever from a single post!
Is this really the card from the wax rip? Is BBCE 100% reliable for detecting unopened material? Did the postman steal it? Did the graders switch it? Can the graders tell EOT from Min size? Do three graders really look at cards? Can graders really tell if a cards been trimmed? Does customer service at CU know what their policy is? Will Joe handle this problem? Is PSA in financial trouble? Are trolls popping up in this thread to trash others? Is there a PSA plot to kick back cards so we'll have to pay to resubmit? Do the larger dealers get easier grades and get more trimmed cards through? Is Joe's last name Orlando because he spends too much time on the Florida beaches? ;-)
Please stay tuned ... for absolutely no solid answers to any of these questions!
Seriously though ... We pay a few dollars per card to get some guys opinion on it's condition and to get it put into a holder. Period.
Graders are not scientists conducting in depth research on our cards. They basically flip it around a few times, stare at the corners under a loop, and give it their best guesstimate of what condition they think it's in. They do this for many hours a day, every day, as their job. I can't even imagine how tedious and boring that job could be.
The real problem is that there is absolutely no way to positively tell if a card has been trimmed. Cards were cut using a sharpened blade coming down on a big stack of cardboard, that was just some other guys boring job back in the 1970's. The cutting machines used, and the printers doing these jobs, left so many variances in size, errors and quality of cuts ... that more often than not, no human can tell between a cut that was made 30 years ago or 30 minutes ago. It's just not always possible to tell.
The graders tend to error on the side of caution, which is a good thing. If they didn't we'd have more trimmed cards flooding the hobby and everyone would be screaming over that.
PSA is not in the business of detecting trimming. They are in the business of judging a cards overall condition and encapsulating the card. That's what we pay for and that's what we get.
They do state that they will not knowingly encapsulate an altered card, and it's obvious from the amount of min size and trimmed rejects that come back, that they attempt to do that ..... but to think that the graders are doing anything more than just giving you an educated guess, is naive at best.
It's a flawed system from the get go, and even years from now when computers take over the grading process, it still won't be 100% accurate. It never will.
Most collectors eventually reach a point where they either decide they can live with the flawed system the way it is .... or if they can't, they usually get out of graded card game.
It's frustrating, because we just want a system that works. But unfortunately, it doesn't exist.
Who would have guessed, years ago when grading first came onto the scene, that it could raise the blood pressure of soooo many guys ... that had decided to collect little pieces of expensive cardboard .... With pictures of guys on them.
Mike >>
You are right in all of your post but I really think this 1986 Fleer Jordan Rookie was different than any other subbed lately... This was one PSA had to get right! Everyone was watching the box break and everyone knew the card was being sent in to be graded. All your assumptions about grading are correct - bottom line is PSA's business is built on their customers knowing they know their stuff (that's what we pay for). PSA flat out dropped the ball on this one and got it wrong - unfortunately for them it happened on a very public card that a lot of us were interested in following. >>
I think it's silly to think that PSA should dedicate time and resources to making sure their graders pay special attention to cards that were obtained via you guys' group rips.
Graders are not scientists conducting in depth research on our cards. They basically flip it around a few times, stare at the corners under a loop, and give it their best guesstimate of what condition they think it's in. They do this for many hours a day, every day, as their job. I can't even imagine how tedious and boring that job could be.
Shoulda - much of your post I agree with, but I disagree somewhat with the above portion of your statement. Most people on this board probably pay on average a minimum of $7.00 per card when there is a special. (That includes all costs) So if they are shipping 50 - 100 cards it's a decent amount of money. Second, no, the graders are not scientists, but PSA and other TPG hold themselves out as professionals/experts in the field and they should be judged that way. They should NOT be judged as just another guy giving you his opinion. It should NOT be a GUESSTIMATE. If the job is boring and tedious AND YOU CANNOT PERFORM IT AT THE HIGH LEVEL IT SHOULD BE PERFORMED then get another job! Again, I agree that graders are not scientists and human error will come into play on some cards. But, if a TPG is holding itself out to be a PROFESSIONAL in the field, you MUST produce PROFESSIONAL results. JMHO.
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
Jasen is a quality board member that I feel would never send a knowingly trimmed card to PSA.
BBCE is a quality seller of authentic unopened material, and I buy from him almost exclusively.
Those comments being said, there is no way that anyone but Jasen knows that it is a Jordan he pulled from a pack, and even though Jasen knows it was pulled right from the pack, he has 0% proof of such a fact. That is why the "PSA has to believe it because it happened on their own message board" angle is not, and cannot be, rock solid.
Let's say that I have a raw 1986 basketball set which has a knowingly (ever so slightly) trimmed Jordan in it holding it's place for me until I can find an untrimmed example. Now lets say I participate in this group rip and pull a Jordan. I immediately take the legit Jordan and put it in my raw set, then take the knowingly trimmed Jordan out of the set and scan it for the board to see. Then I send it to PSA, and when it comes back EOT I have the power of the message board community behind me for what appear to be obvious reasons.
I AM NOT SAYING JASEN DID ANY OF THIS.....but the sad truth is that PSA could care less who Jasen is, or how he acquired the Jordan.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow, this thread could win an award for the most sub plots ever from a single post!
Is this really the card from the wax rip? Is BBCE 100% reliable for detecting unopened material? Did the postman steal it? Did the graders switch it? Can the graders tell EOT from Min size? Do three graders really look at cards? Can graders really tell if a cards been trimmed? Does customer service at CU know what their policy is? Will Joe handle this problem? Is PSA in financial trouble? Are trolls popping up in this thread to trash others? Is there a PSA plot to kick back cards so we'll have to pay to resubmit? Do the larger dealers get easier grades and get more trimmed cards through? Is Joe's last name Orlando because he spends too much time on the Florida beaches? ;-)
Please stay tuned ... for absolutely no solid answers to any of these questions!
Seriously though ... We pay a few dollars per card to get some guys opinion on it's condition and to get it put into a holder. Period.
Graders are not scientists conducting in depth research on our cards. They basically flip it around a few times, stare at the corners under a loop, and give it their best guesstimate of what condition they think it's in. They do this for many hours a day, every day, as their job. I can't even imagine how tedious and boring that job could be.
The real problem is that there is absolutely no way to positively tell if a card has been trimmed. Cards were cut using a sharpened blade coming down on a big stack of cardboard, that was just some other guys boring job back in the 1970's. The cutting machines used, and the printers doing these jobs, left so many variances in size, errors and quality of cuts ... that more often than not, no human can tell between a cut that was made 30 years ago or 30 minutes ago. It's just not always possible to tell.
The graders tend to error on the side of caution, which is a good thing. If they didn't we'd have more trimmed cards flooding the hobby and everyone would be screaming over that.
PSA is not in the business of detecting trimming. They are in the business of judging a cards overall condition and encapsulating the card. That's what we pay for and that's what we get.
They do state that they will not knowingly encapsulate an altered card, and it's obvious from the amount of min size and trimmed rejects that come back, that they attempt to do that ..... but to think that the graders are doing anything more than just giving you an educated guess, is naive at best.
It's a flawed system from the get go, and even years from now when computers take over the grading process, it still won't be 100% accurate. It never will.
Most collectors eventually reach a point where they either decide they can live with the flawed system the way it is .... or if they can't, they usually get out of graded card game.
It's frustrating, because we just want a system that works. But unfortunately, it doesn't exist.
Who would have guessed, years ago when grading first came onto the scene, that it could raise the blood pressure of soooo many guys ... that had decided to collect little pieces of expensive cardboard .... With pictures of guys on them.
Mike >>
You are right in all of your post but I really think this 1986 Fleer Jordan Rookie was different than any other subbed lately... This was one PSA had to get right! Everyone was watching the box break and everyone knew the card was being sent in to be graded. All your assumptions about grading are correct - bottom line is PSA's business is built on their customers knowing they know their stuff (that's what we pay for). PSA flat out dropped the ball on this one and got it wrong - unfortunately for them it happened on a very public card that a lot of us were interested in following. >>
I think it's silly to think that PSA should dedicate time and resources to making sure their graders pay special attention to cards that were obtained via you guys' group rips. >>
BP - I disagree by having an active community PSA has shown they are willing to do stuf for us... come on we've done 2 group subs of over 2,000 cards!
<< <i>The first 2 things I am going to say are how I truly feel, and then I am going to play devil's advocate.
Jasen is a quality board member that I feel would never send a knowingly trimmed card to PSA.
BBCE is a quality seller of authentic unopened material, and I buy from him almost exclusively.
Those comments being said, there is no way that anyone but Jasen knows that it is a Jordan he pulled from a pack, and even though Jasen knows it was pulled right from the pack, he has 0% proof of such a fact. That is why the "PSA has to believe it because it happened on their own message board" angle is not, and cannot be, rock solid.
Let's say that I have a raw 1986 basketball set which has a knowingly (ever so slightly) trimmed Jordan in it holding it's place for me until I can find an untrimmed example. Now lets say I participate in this group rip and pull a Jordan. I immediately take the legit Jordan and put it in my raw set, then take the knowingly trimmed Jordan out of the set and scan it for the board to see. Then I send it to PSA, and when it comes back EOT I have the power of the message board community behind me for what appear to be obvious reasons.
I AM NOT SAYING JASEN DID ANY OF THIS.....but the sad truth is that PSA could care less who Jasen is, or how he acquired the Jordan. >>
By psa having a message board and active community I guess they have to live with a community reaction... is you senerio possible, you bet it is! Did that happen no it did not (and I know your not suggesting it did Nick).
I think the larger issue is what is EOT? I think it's become an easy out for PSA I think they need to say we looked at the card and it appears the left board has been trimmed down. Now if PSA says this what can I say? But if the card is just a little smaller than normal cards I should get a minimum size voucher.
How long would it really take for psa to give us more info? The could have pre formatted responses and only have to check a box... it's not like I would be asking for a report.
<< <i>I think the larger issue is what is EOT? I think it's become an easy out for PSA I think they need to say we looked at the card and it appears the left board has been trimmed down. Now if PSA says this what can I say? But if the card is just a little smaller than normal cards I should get a minimum size voucher.
How long would it really take for psa to give us more info? The could have pre formatted responses and only have to check a box... it's not like I would be asking for a report. >>
I completely agree. I need to know what a grader sees that would give him/her an indication if the card has been trimmed. ESPECIALLY if the card isn't smaller than normal.
I don't think that's too much to ask for.
<< <i>Seriously though ... We pay a few dollars per card to get some guys opinion on it's condition and to get it put into a holder. Period.
Graders are not scientists conducting in depth research on our cards. They basically flip it around a few times, stare at the corners under a loop, and give it their best guesstimate of what condition they think it's in. They do this for many hours a day, every day, as their job. I can't even imagine how tedious and boring that job could be.
Shoulda - much of your post I agree with, but I disagree somewhat with the above portion of your statement. Most people on this board probably pay on average a minimum of $7.00 per card when there is a special. (That includes all costs) So if they are shipping 50 - 100 cards it's a decent amount of money. Second, no, the graders are not scientists, but PSA and other TPG hold themselves out as professionals/experts in the field and they should be judged that way. They should NOT be judged as just another guy giving you his opinion. It should NOT be a GUESSTIMATE. If the job is boring and tedious AND YOU CANNOT PERFORM IT AT THE HIGH LEVEL IT SHOULD BE PERFORMED then get another job! Again, I agree that graders are not scientists and human error will come into play on some cards. But, if a TPG is holding itself out to be a PROFESSIONAL in the field, you MUST produce PROFESSIONAL results. JMHO. >>
Doug,
I agree with your disagreement.
There's just no such thing as a Professional Card Board Trimming Analyst. There's no college courses to take on the subject and there's no technology out there that can detect it ... especially for only $6, $7 or $8 per card.
The very best PSA can do is to hire some guys, train them in some of the tell tale signs of what to look for, and hope they do an adequate enough job.
Sure, they can constantly retrain, try to hone their skills and have more guys look at each card ... but even if you had 100 graders looking at each card, you'd still have mixed opinions and nothing better than educated guesses.
It's not an exact science. Heck, It's not even science. It's just some guy named Bob, that answered an ad in the Help wanted ads. He gets paid to stare at cards all day and give his opinion.
The best we can do ... is hope he blinks once or twice while he's looking at our tweeners.
Mike
and I would like to throw my hat in the ring to be a grader..
Joe.. Carol.. if you read this.. whatya say?
gimme a shot.. seriously