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Finalized the sale of the 1875-S $20 PCGS MS-67 (Pictures now included)
oreville
Posts: 11,795 ✭✭✭✭✭
Yesterday, I finalized the sale of my 1875-S $20 Liberty PCGS MS-67 (also has the NGC MS-67 sticker) for $575,000. This is a record price for a type II coin based on condition rarity. PCGS has it valued at $275,000 and the Greysheet has it listed for $175,500. These price guides are woefully out of date.
I exchanged the coin with various PCGS/NGC graded coins and also received some monies. There will be a significant amount of 28% capital gain income I will report as a result of this sale on my 2009 income tax return.
It was tough to let this adorable coin go but I enjoyed it for nearly 12 years, I had my fun and I was able to procure far rarer and underappreciated rarities to take its place.
I also wanted to balance my coin collection away from primarily condition rarities to a more balanced collection which included a much larger amount of $20 gold coins as I sensed that gold is going to hold its value a lot better than anything else out there.
Here are some pictures:
Picture of San Francisco in 1875:
Some of the nusmismatic items received in exchange:
1864 Round 50¢. Liberty Head. BG-1016a. Rarity-8. Silver. MS-62 (PCGS). Sold for $12,650.
There are 2 graded in all grades in PCGS (EF-45 and MS-62) and one in all grades at NGC (MS-62 which I strongly believe is the same identical piece now in the PCGS MS-62 holder) I have also seen a third piece about 20 years ago but it was a holed piece :
Stack's description:
Warmly and attractively toned in vivid gold, pink, and blue. Perhaps only two or three silver examples extant from these dies. According to the most recent (2nd) edition of the Breen-Gillio reference of California small-denomination gold, a non-destructive analysis of an EF-45 specimen showed it to be sterling silver, a composition that shouldn't be a surprise since the issuing firm, Robert B. Gray & Co. of San Francisco, were manufacturing jewelers. The reason why sterling silver impressions were made is a matter of conjecture: perhaps Gray & Co. received a special request from a client who wished to have silver specimens for sterling silver charm bracelets, or perhaps it was made to accommodate a local San Francisco Mint numismatist who wished to possess a rarity. In any case, few were made and evidently only a couple of examples are presently known; this is by far the finer of the two pieces enumerated in the Breen-Gillio reference, the other example grades EF-45. Once this piece crosses the auction block it might be years or even decades before it makes another appearance. Don't let this one get away.
PCGS Population: 1; none finer.
===================================================
These were purchased at the Heritage Auctions on my behalf as well:
Click for larger image 2067 Patterns
1942 1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2054, Pollock-2074, High R.7, PR60 PCGS.... Sold PR60 5 $3,737.50
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature
1942 1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2054, Pollock-2074, High R.7, PR60 PCGS. On the obverse Liberty faces right--a design based on the Colombian two centavo coins--with LIBERTY at the left rim, JUSTICE at the right. The reverse features an olive wreath with berries and UNITED STATES MINT in the center. Struck in zinc-coated steel, one of the types apparently struck within the Mint in 1942. This piece, while strictly Mint State, has heavy diagonal gray toning striations on both sides. Population: 1 in 60, 1 finer (11/08). (#62401)
Note: there were 5 different bidders.
================================================
Click for larger image 2068 Patterns
1942 1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2054, Pollock-2074, High R.7, MS63 NGC.... Sold PR63 6 $4,312.50
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature
1942 1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2054, Pollock-2074, High R.7, MS63 NGC. The obverse depicts a bust right of Liberty, based on the KM-198 Colombian two centavos. The reverse features a wreath and a central legend. Struck in zinc-coated steel. The dies were engraved by John R. Sinnock, and used both inside and outside the Mint. The bronze, zinc-coated steel, manganese, and aluminum pieces were apparently struck at the Mint in the second half of 1942. All other pieces, in various plastic and related compositions were struck privately outside the Mint.
Essentially the same composition that was finally chosen for 1943 Lincoln cent production, this piece has deep gray surfaces with a few tiny spots and some barely detectable corrosion. (#62401)
(There are 4 in all grades at NGC and the 2 at PCGS shown above which means there are a total of 6 for both PCGS and NGC) I purchase the finest NGC one which is an NGC MS-64 and it cost me a huge $8500 to get it!
Note there were 6 different bidders for this lot:
======================================================
Click for larger image 2069 Patterns
Uncertified Planchet for Judd-2060 Pattern Cent.... Sold PR60 3 $488.75
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature
Uncertified Planchet for Judd-2060 Pattern Cent. This brown plastic planchet has a raised rim, and is otherwise featureless except for a set of concentric circular grooves near the rim on each side. Judd-2060 was privately struck from mint dies in 1942. The intent was to provide a suitable substitute for the bronze cent, which used copper needed for the war effort. The Treasury eventually turned to a zinc-plated steel composition for the 1943 cent. (#62401)
There were 3 bidders on this lot:
===================================
Click for larger image 2070 Patterns
1942 P1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2060, Pollock-4035, Low R.7, MS66 NGC.... Sold PR66 5 $4,312.50
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature
1942 P1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2060, Pollock-4035, Low R.7, MS66 NGC. The obverse resembles the KM-198 Colombia two centavos, and the simple reverse has merely a wreath and the legend UNITED/STATES/MINT. Privately struck in brown plastic with a plain edge from dies provided by the U.S. Mint. The lustrous surfaces are chocolate-brown and strictly as made, without any indication of marks or spots. (#62401)
=======================================
Click for larger image (PM me for pictures or go to ha.com) 2071 Patterns
1942 1C Cent, Judd-2062, Pollock-4045, Low R.7, MS64 NGC.... Sold PR64 6 $2,760.00
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature
1942 1C Cent, Judd-2062, Pollock-4045, Low R.7, MS64 NGC. Copper was required by American forces during World War II, and the Treasury considered striking cents in plastic, glass, rubber, bakelite, fiber, and other non-essential materials. This led to Judd-2051 through Judd-2069, a series of pattern cents in exotic compositions. Dies similar in design to the Lincoln cent but bearing different types (a woman's bust and a wreath) were delivered to private contractors. Struck in red plastic with a plain edge from widely rotated dies. This is a dark brown near-Gem that boasts an exemplary strike and lustrous, seamless surfaces. (#62401)
==========================================================
Click for larger image (PM me for picures or go to ha.com) 2072 Patterns
1942 1C Cent, Judd-2063, Pollock-4035, Low R.7, PR65 NGC.... Sold PR65 6 $4,025.00
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature
1942 1C Cent, Judd-2063, Pollock-4035, Low R.7, PR65 NGC. Chief Engraver John R. Sinnock is credited with the designs. The obverse resembles the Columbian two-centavo. The reverse has a peripheral wreath enclosing a three line legend. The types are similar in placement to the Lincoln cent. Struck in tan plastic with a plain edge. The dies have medal turn. Lustrous and sharply struck with a glossy mark-free light-brown appearance. (#62401)
I exchanged the coin with various PCGS/NGC graded coins and also received some monies. There will be a significant amount of 28% capital gain income I will report as a result of this sale on my 2009 income tax return.
It was tough to let this adorable coin go but I enjoyed it for nearly 12 years, I had my fun and I was able to procure far rarer and underappreciated rarities to take its place.
I also wanted to balance my coin collection away from primarily condition rarities to a more balanced collection which included a much larger amount of $20 gold coins as I sensed that gold is going to hold its value a lot better than anything else out there.
Here are some pictures:
Picture of San Francisco in 1875:
Some of the nusmismatic items received in exchange:
1864 Round 50¢. Liberty Head. BG-1016a. Rarity-8. Silver. MS-62 (PCGS). Sold for $12,650.
There are 2 graded in all grades in PCGS (EF-45 and MS-62) and one in all grades at NGC (MS-62 which I strongly believe is the same identical piece now in the PCGS MS-62 holder) I have also seen a third piece about 20 years ago but it was a holed piece :
Stack's description:
Warmly and attractively toned in vivid gold, pink, and blue. Perhaps only two or three silver examples extant from these dies. According to the most recent (2nd) edition of the Breen-Gillio reference of California small-denomination gold, a non-destructive analysis of an EF-45 specimen showed it to be sterling silver, a composition that shouldn't be a surprise since the issuing firm, Robert B. Gray & Co. of San Francisco, were manufacturing jewelers. The reason why sterling silver impressions were made is a matter of conjecture: perhaps Gray & Co. received a special request from a client who wished to have silver specimens for sterling silver charm bracelets, or perhaps it was made to accommodate a local San Francisco Mint numismatist who wished to possess a rarity. In any case, few were made and evidently only a couple of examples are presently known; this is by far the finer of the two pieces enumerated in the Breen-Gillio reference, the other example grades EF-45. Once this piece crosses the auction block it might be years or even decades before it makes another appearance. Don't let this one get away.
PCGS Population: 1; none finer.
===================================================
These were purchased at the Heritage Auctions on my behalf as well:
Click for larger image 2067 Patterns
1942 1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2054, Pollock-2074, High R.7, PR60 PCGS.... Sold PR60 5 $3,737.50
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature
1942 1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2054, Pollock-2074, High R.7, PR60 PCGS. On the obverse Liberty faces right--a design based on the Colombian two centavo coins--with LIBERTY at the left rim, JUSTICE at the right. The reverse features an olive wreath with berries and UNITED STATES MINT in the center. Struck in zinc-coated steel, one of the types apparently struck within the Mint in 1942. This piece, while strictly Mint State, has heavy diagonal gray toning striations on both sides. Population: 1 in 60, 1 finer (11/08). (#62401)
Note: there were 5 different bidders.
================================================
Click for larger image 2068 Patterns
1942 1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2054, Pollock-2074, High R.7, MS63 NGC.... Sold PR63 6 $4,312.50
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature
1942 1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2054, Pollock-2074, High R.7, MS63 NGC. The obverse depicts a bust right of Liberty, based on the KM-198 Colombian two centavos. The reverse features a wreath and a central legend. Struck in zinc-coated steel. The dies were engraved by John R. Sinnock, and used both inside and outside the Mint. The bronze, zinc-coated steel, manganese, and aluminum pieces were apparently struck at the Mint in the second half of 1942. All other pieces, in various plastic and related compositions were struck privately outside the Mint.
Essentially the same composition that was finally chosen for 1943 Lincoln cent production, this piece has deep gray surfaces with a few tiny spots and some barely detectable corrosion. (#62401)
(There are 4 in all grades at NGC and the 2 at PCGS shown above which means there are a total of 6 for both PCGS and NGC) I purchase the finest NGC one which is an NGC MS-64 and it cost me a huge $8500 to get it!
Note there were 6 different bidders for this lot:
======================================================
Click for larger image 2069 Patterns
Uncertified Planchet for Judd-2060 Pattern Cent.... Sold PR60 3 $488.75
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature
Uncertified Planchet for Judd-2060 Pattern Cent. This brown plastic planchet has a raised rim, and is otherwise featureless except for a set of concentric circular grooves near the rim on each side. Judd-2060 was privately struck from mint dies in 1942. The intent was to provide a suitable substitute for the bronze cent, which used copper needed for the war effort. The Treasury eventually turned to a zinc-plated steel composition for the 1943 cent. (#62401)
There were 3 bidders on this lot:
===================================
Click for larger image 2070 Patterns
1942 P1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2060, Pollock-4035, Low R.7, MS66 NGC.... Sold PR66 5 $4,312.50
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature
1942 P1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2060, Pollock-4035, Low R.7, MS66 NGC. The obverse resembles the KM-198 Colombia two centavos, and the simple reverse has merely a wreath and the legend UNITED/STATES/MINT. Privately struck in brown plastic with a plain edge from dies provided by the U.S. Mint. The lustrous surfaces are chocolate-brown and strictly as made, without any indication of marks or spots. (#62401)
=======================================
Click for larger image (PM me for pictures or go to ha.com) 2071 Patterns
1942 1C Cent, Judd-2062, Pollock-4045, Low R.7, MS64 NGC.... Sold PR64 6 $2,760.00
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature
1942 1C Cent, Judd-2062, Pollock-4045, Low R.7, MS64 NGC. Copper was required by American forces during World War II, and the Treasury considered striking cents in plastic, glass, rubber, bakelite, fiber, and other non-essential materials. This led to Judd-2051 through Judd-2069, a series of pattern cents in exotic compositions. Dies similar in design to the Lincoln cent but bearing different types (a woman's bust and a wreath) were delivered to private contractors. Struck in red plastic with a plain edge from widely rotated dies. This is a dark brown near-Gem that boasts an exemplary strike and lustrous, seamless surfaces. (#62401)
==========================================================
Click for larger image (PM me for picures or go to ha.com) 2072 Patterns
1942 1C Cent, Judd-2063, Pollock-4035, Low R.7, PR65 NGC.... Sold PR65 6 $4,025.00
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature
1942 1C Cent, Judd-2063, Pollock-4035, Low R.7, PR65 NGC. Chief Engraver John R. Sinnock is credited with the designs. The obverse resembles the Columbian two-centavo. The reverse has a peripheral wreath enclosing a three line legend. The types are similar in placement to the Lincoln cent. Struck in tan plastic with a plain edge. The dies have medal turn. Lustrous and sharply struck with a glossy mark-free light-brown appearance. (#62401)
A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
5
Comments
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Congratulations on the sale/exchange. Type 2 double eagles are rarely found in grades above MS63.
In the Fulgenz and Winter book on Double Eagles, it is specifically mentioned. Here is a quote from the book, “The finest known example of this date is a spectacular NGC MS67…This coin is the finest business strike Type Two Double Eagle of any date which is currently known to exist.”
assorted 1942 cent patterns as shown here recently PICTURES ALREADY SHOWN!
silver Calfornia fractional BG-1016a shown here recently PICTURE ALREADY SHOWN!
a few black NGC slabbed coins, some shown here recently PICTURE ALREADY SHOWN
a few all white ultra rare NGC slabbed coins with the gold foil on the inside of the slab
etc
etc
etc
BTW - Congrats on the sale, but seriously, we need pictures
roadrunner
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>You know that this thread is worthless without pictures
BTW - Congrats on the sale, but seriously, we need pictures >>
<< <i>Nice piece of work Oreville. Selling that coin for $575K at essentially peak market levels while getting a heaping pile of goldies in return. Not bad at all. The like-kind exchange technique offers great potential for those looking to push their taxable coin gains further down the road. And regardless of the Nachbar ads claiming you can "trade" rare coins for gold bullion...you can't. Bullion is treated as cash and triggers a taxable event. At least that's my understanding of it. Now we just need to keep the IRS from adopting PA2 rules that show bullion to be anything receiving 50% of its value from the intrinsic value.
If Oreville is willing to put out other specifics on the LKE I think it would be helpful to many here.
roadrunner >>
Seems to me it would be a lot easier to sell 200 of the $1000 coins for cash in a low key piecemeal manner, than it would be to sell a single $200K coin.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>Did you realize any Tax liability from this transaction? >>
I believe delaying any tax liability was the driving force behind selling it in a LKE [like kind exchange] strategy. Perhaps Robert would tell us if there are any encumbrances on the items he received in exchange since he apparently received a lot of little items in exchange for one large item.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Hoard the keys.
Are they really this stupid, or are they destroying the dollar on purpose?
A super transaction. One type 2 in 67, and you have had it for 12 years. You are some patient collector.
Pm me about the tax liabilities, if any. I have been real diligent about the accounting for like-kind transactions.
Congrats to you on a great sale and keep it up...you obviously are doing something right!
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I still enjoy go through "unsearched" wheat cents.
It's interesting to me how easily someone could figure this coin for a tremendously different price. If the coin were sold at auction tomorrow, I could see the coin hammering anywhere from 300K to 600K.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Congratulations! I think this was a great move.
It's interesting to me how easily someone could figure this coin for a tremendously different price. If the coin were sold at auction tomorrow, I could see the coin hammering anywhere from 300K to 600K. >>
Can't the same thing be said for many "big" coins? The 1796 1c in MS66 RB in the Naftzger sale, for example.
Proud recipient of Y.S. Award on 07/26/08.
Stunning coin. Congratulations on the sale.
Mike
Thought I’d rejuvenate this 10 year old (Jan 2009) classic @Oreville thread about the sale of his 1875-S PCGS MS-67 $20 Gold Liberty Double Eagle for reference, since it has recently been mentioned in the “SuperNova” thread.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Most interestingly it is still a pop 1 with the next runner up ms64+
I was able to find the following👇2 Obverse (only) Images of Oreville’s 1875-S PCGS MS-67 $20 Gold Liberty Double Eagle via Google Search link to @Oreville PCGS Coin Photo Album.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Super coin !
Pristine example!!!
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
While no other Type MS67's have come to light since 1995....I have to wonder if the making of more MS67's in Type 3's and even Type 1's has softened the value of this 1875-s? Or is the demand for "unique" and top pop "extreme" gold coins stronger than ever?
The SS Central America hoard put hundreds of gem 1857-s 20's into the market. In a way, those are "replacements" for someone wanting a gem early $20 (whether T1. or T2.). And from a "coolness" factor, I'd give the nod to the 1857-s Type 1's since they are now type coins. How about another shipwreck discovery coming to market that went down in 1875-1878? That would be interesting to say the least.
I last heard from him about a year ago when he allowed me to examine his collection for a book. I emailed him a couple of times over the past week, but have not had a reply.
I have never found "exchanges" of quality coins for something else advantageous, especially when dealing with sharp industry insiders. Much better to try to get the top price for your material and then negotiate a price on what you want to buy!
Damn...I just liked a ten year old thread.
That's different than my experience with sharp buyers.
Texted Oreville today - he's alive and well, just busy.
He notes the old tax law allowed a like-kind exchange so as a CPA, made sense to him, I guess, rather than paying the 28% tax.
Encouraged him to make a cameo appearance.
@Oreville is a Great Guy, who always provided excellent insight on my $20 Liberty Gold Double Eagles!😁👍
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Too busy to ever attend our FUN dinners.
Great guy. Hoping for a cameo appearance!
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
FUN dinners are the best - but don't want to highjack this thread.
Way better than the "supernova;" this one is a real 67. No comparison IMHO...
Hey!!!
Some comments.
I wonder if emails work anymore!!!
It was nice to get a text from Lakesamman!
I have been quite busy working in my tax season as a CPA until April 15th.
Since April 15th been scouring all kinds of real estate looking for a large 50 plus acre lots for my adult daughter's dog hiking business. She wants to build a dog training center along with a dog kennel facility.
In our area, finding pristine 50 plus acres of land is getting harder and harder to find especially with a stream or a pond within 60 miles of New York City.
That has taken my attention away from looking for coins which I still enjoy looking at. Plus my daughter seems to getting closer and closer to wedding bells so I need to make sure my funds are available as "father of the bride" as my idea of a backyard bbq will not succeed!
By the way, I have to double check Roger's emails to me to see if it went to my spam folder instead of the regular inbox!!
I believe this 1875-S $20 (if not disturbed in the OGH PCGS holder) will now garner about $700K plus but it is no longer eligible for a like kind exchange for the 2018 year income tax return. and beyond. Only real estate is eligible for the like kind exchange for the 2018 year going forward. That hurts the collectible market. Most art collectors, for example, do not even realize that you can no longer do a Section 1031 like kind exchange!
Look at the IRS form 1024 and the instructions on the IRS website. www.Irs.gov to get a better understanding for the still available real estate 1031 like kind exchange.
I received an incredible array of coins in exchange for this wonderful coin and when I completed my 2009 income tax return I was able to minimize my reported taxable capital gain to $52,000 as I was lucky enough to find a wonderful group of coins totalling about $523,000. It did take over a year to find these coins/patterns!
But I do miss the 1875-S $20!!
If the adult daughter who is getting married is the same one interested in a dog training center and facility .....well your a VERY generous daddy to help her buy the property !
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
It was great to hear from "Oreville" and I hope everything goes well with the wedding. I once worked on an organic farm in Westtown, NY, I would be looking in that area as CT would too much of a challenge and too expensive.
No...it’s a real 68. If there aren’t lines hidden in the images