Home U.S. Coin Forum

Finalized the sale of the 1875-S $20 PCGS MS-67 (Pictures now included)

orevilleoreville Posts: 11,771 ✭✭✭✭✭
Yesterday, I finalized the sale of my 1875-S $20 Liberty PCGS MS-67 (also has the NGC MS-67 sticker) for $575,000. This is a record price for a type II coin based on condition rarity. PCGS has it valued at $275,000 and the Greysheet has it listed for $175,500. These price guides are woefully out of date.

I exchanged the coin with various PCGS/NGC graded coins and also received some monies. There will be a significant amount of 28% capital gain income I will report as a result of this sale on my 2009 income tax return.

It was tough to let this adorable coin go but I enjoyed it for nearly 12 years, I had my fun and I was able to procure far rarer and underappreciated rarities to take its place.

I also wanted to balance my coin collection away from primarily condition rarities to a more balanced collection which included a much larger amount of $20 gold coins as I sensed that gold is going to hold its value a lot better than anything else out there.

Here are some pictures:

image
image

Picture of San Francisco in 1875:
image

Some of the nusmismatic items received in exchange:

1864 Round 50¢. Liberty Head. BG-1016a. Rarity-8. Silver. MS-62 (PCGS). Sold for $12,650.

There are 2 graded in all grades in PCGS (EF-45 and MS-62) and one in all grades at NGC (MS-62 which I strongly believe is the same identical piece now in the PCGS MS-62 holder) I have also seen a third piece about 20 years ago but it was a holed piece :


Stack's description:

Warmly and attractively toned in vivid gold, pink, and blue. Perhaps only two or three silver examples extant from these dies. According to the most recent (2nd) edition of the Breen-Gillio reference of California small-denomination gold, a non-destructive analysis of an EF-45 specimen showed it to be sterling silver, a composition that shouldn't be a surprise since the issuing firm, Robert B. Gray & Co. of San Francisco, were manufacturing jewelers. The reason why sterling silver impressions were made is a matter of conjecture: perhaps Gray & Co. received a special request from a client who wished to have silver specimens for sterling silver charm bracelets, or perhaps it was made to accommodate a local San Francisco Mint numismatist who wished to possess a rarity. In any case, few were made and evidently only a couple of examples are presently known; this is by far the finer of the two pieces enumerated in the Breen-Gillio reference, the other example grades EF-45. Once this piece crosses the auction block it might be years or even decades before it makes another appearance. Don't let this one get away.

PCGS Population: 1; none finer.



image
image


===================================================

These were purchased at the Heritage Auctions on my behalf as well:


Click for larger image 2067 Patterns
1942 1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2054, Pollock-2074, High R.7, PR60 PCGS.... Sold PR60 5 $3,737.50
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature

1942 1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2054, Pollock-2074, High R.7, PR60 PCGS. On the obverse Liberty faces right--a design based on the Colombian two centavo coins--with LIBERTY at the left rim, JUSTICE at the right. The reverse features an olive wreath with berries and UNITED STATES MINT in the center. Struck in zinc-coated steel, one of the types apparently struck within the Mint in 1942. This piece, while strictly Mint State, has heavy diagonal gray toning striations on both sides. Population: 1 in 60, 1 finer (11/08). (#62401)

Note: there were 5 different bidders.

image
image



================================================


Click for larger image 2068 Patterns
1942 1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2054, Pollock-2074, High R.7, MS63 NGC.... Sold PR63 6 $4,312.50
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature

1942 1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2054, Pollock-2074, High R.7, MS63 NGC. The obverse depicts a bust right of Liberty, based on the KM-198 Colombian two centavos. The reverse features a wreath and a central legend. Struck in zinc-coated steel. The dies were engraved by John R. Sinnock, and used both inside and outside the Mint. The bronze, zinc-coated steel, manganese, and aluminum pieces were apparently struck at the Mint in the second half of 1942. All other pieces, in various plastic and related compositions were struck privately outside the Mint.
Essentially the same composition that was finally chosen for 1943 Lincoln cent production, this piece has deep gray surfaces with a few tiny spots and some barely detectable corrosion. (#62401)

(There are 4 in all grades at NGC and the 2 at PCGS shown above which means there are a total of 6 for both PCGS and NGC) I purchase the finest NGC one which is an NGC MS-64 and it cost me a huge $8500 to get it!

Note there were 6 different bidders for this lot:

image
image



======================================================

Click for larger image 2069 Patterns
Uncertified Planchet for Judd-2060 Pattern Cent.... Sold PR60 3 $488.75
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature


Uncertified Planchet for Judd-2060 Pattern Cent. This brown plastic planchet has a raised rim, and is otherwise featureless except for a set of concentric circular grooves near the rim on each side. Judd-2060 was privately struck from mint dies in 1942. The intent was to provide a suitable substitute for the bronze cent, which used copper needed for the war effort. The Treasury eventually turned to a zinc-plated steel composition for the 1943 cent. (#62401)


There were 3 bidders on this lot:

image
image


===================================




Click for larger image 2070 Patterns
1942 P1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2060, Pollock-4035, Low R.7, MS66 NGC.... Sold PR66 5 $4,312.50
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature


1942 P1C "One Cent" Pattern, Judd-2060, Pollock-4035, Low R.7, MS66 NGC. The obverse resembles the KM-198 Colombia two centavos, and the simple reverse has merely a wreath and the legend UNITED/STATES/MINT. Privately struck in brown plastic with a plain edge from dies provided by the U.S. Mint. The lustrous surfaces are chocolate-brown and strictly as made, without any indication of marks or spots. (#62401)


image
image

=======================================

Click for larger image (PM me for pictures or go to ha.com) 2071 Patterns
1942 1C Cent, Judd-2062, Pollock-4045, Low R.7, MS64 NGC.... Sold PR64 6 $2,760.00
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature

1942 1C Cent, Judd-2062, Pollock-4045, Low R.7, MS64 NGC. Copper was required by American forces during World War II, and the Treasury considered striking cents in plastic, glass, rubber, bakelite, fiber, and other non-essential materials. This led to Judd-2051 through Judd-2069, a series of pattern cents in exotic compositions. Dies similar in design to the Lincoln cent but bearing different types (a woman's bust and a wreath) were delivered to private contractors. Struck in red plastic with a plain edge from widely rotated dies. This is a dark brown near-Gem that boasts an exemplary strike and lustrous, seamless surfaces. (#62401)

==========================================================
Click for larger image (PM me for picures or go to ha.com) 2072 Patterns
1942 1C Cent, Judd-2063, Pollock-4035, Low R.7, PR65 NGC.... Sold PR65 6 $4,025.00
(Internet) 1-7-2009
Signature

1942 1C Cent, Judd-2063, Pollock-4035, Low R.7, PR65 NGC. Chief Engraver John R. Sinnock is credited with the designs. The obverse resembles the Columbian two-centavo. The reverse has a peripheral wreath enclosing a three line legend. The types are similar in placement to the Lincoln cent. Struck in tan plastic with a plain edge. The dies have medal turn. Lustrous and sharply struck with a glossy mark-free light-brown appearance. (#62401)

A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
«1

Comments

  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Congrats! Now tell us about the replacement coins.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,719 ✭✭✭✭✭
    congrats

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • BloodManBloodMan Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oreville,

    Congratulations on the sale/exchange. Type 2 double eagles are rarely found in grades above MS63.

    In the Fulgenz and Winter book on Double Eagles, it is specifically mentioned. Here is a quote from the book, “The finest known example of this date is a spectacular NGC MS67…This coin is the finest business strike Type Two Double Eagle of any date which is currently known to exist.”


  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,771 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well over 200 $20 Saints/Libs in PCGS/NGC MS-66/65/64/ all CAC, some with gold stickers as well. Some Liberty MS-63/CAc as well and some others part of the boot.

    assorted 1942 cent patterns as shown here recently PICTURES ALREADY SHOWN!
    silver Calfornia fractional BG-1016a shown here recently PICTURE ALREADY SHOWN!
    a few black NGC slabbed coins, some shown here recently PICTURE ALREADY SHOWN
    a few all white ultra rare NGC slabbed coins with the gold foil on the inside of the slab
    etc
    etc
    etc
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • robkoolrobkool Posts: 5,934 ✭✭✭✭✭
    CONGRATS !!! That puts my 75 s in AU50 to shame... I saw the MS67 in the Registry set. A nice coin indeed...
  • STONESTONE Posts: 15,275
    You know that this thread is worthless without pictures image

    BTW - Congrats on the sale, but seriously, we need pictures
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice piece of work Oreville. Selling that coin for $575K at essentially peak market levels seems like a good move.

    roadrunner




    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • 57loaded57loaded Posts: 4,967 ✭✭✭
    congrats and good decisions on what to do with the proceeds.
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 13,776 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Congratulations! Well done! Do you mind if I ask how much you payed the 1875-s 12 years ago?
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • NicNic Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Congrat's Robert. Killer coin and I'm sure you were a bit sad to see her go.

    K


  • << <i>You know that this thread is worthless without pictures image

    BTW - Congrats on the sale, but seriously, we need pictures >>




    image
    Crazy old man from Missouri
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Nice piece of work Oreville. Selling that coin for $575K at essentially peak market levels while getting a heaping pile of goldies in return. Not bad at all. The like-kind exchange technique offers great potential for those looking to push their taxable coin gains further down the road. And regardless of the Nachbar ads claiming you can "trade" rare coins for gold bullion...you can't. Bullion is treated as cash and triggers a taxable event. At least that's my understanding of it. Now we just need to keep the IRS from adopting PA2 rules that show bullion to be anything receiving 50% of its value from the intrinsic value.

    If Oreville is willing to put out other specifics on the LKE I think it would be helpful to many here.

    roadrunner >>



    Seems to me it would be a lot easier to sell 200 of the $1000 coins for cash in a low key piecemeal manner, than it would be to sell a single $200K coin.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭
    WOW - congrats. image Killer coin.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • OPAOPA Posts: 17,104 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Did you realize any Tax liability from this transaction?
    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • How about some pics?
  • coinlieutenantcoinlieutenant Posts: 9,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is great Robert. I think a smart move. I love that 75-S. Always one of the top "covet" coins on my list.

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Did you realize any Tax liability from this transaction? >>



    I believe delaying any tax liability was the driving force behind selling it in a LKE [like kind exchange] strategy. Perhaps Robert would tell us if there are any encumbrances on the items he received in exchange since he apparently received a lot of little items in exchange for one large item.
  • wow congrats on the sale, wish you would put some pictures up of the new coins.
    image
  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
    imageimage Good for you nice hit like you said you had fun with it for 12 years. image


    Hoard the keys.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,108 ✭✭✭✭✭
    how bout a pic of the 75-S?

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • Billet7Billet7 Posts: 4,923 ✭✭✭
    WOW I tell you what...WOW.
  • TahoeDaleTahoeDale Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭
    Robert,

    A super transaction. One type 2 in 67, and you have had it for 12 years. You are some patient collector.

    Pm me about the tax liabilities, if any. I have been real diligent about the accounting for like-kind transactions.

    TahoeDale
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So you already made some trades, Robert? Oh well, I guess I'll have to look elsewhere for a $500,000 loan so I can buy an 1876-CC double dime!

    Congrats to you on a great sale and keep it up...you obviously are doing something right! image

    Lane
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And to think, based on a earlier PM 6 months ago, I was feeling sorry for you. image

    I still enjoy go through "unsearched" wheat cents.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Congratulations! I think this was a great move.

    It's interesting to me how easily someone could figure this coin for a tremendously different price. If the coin were sold at auction tomorrow, I could see the coin hammering anywhere from 300K to 600K.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • ColonialCoinUnionColonialCoinUnion Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Congratulations! I think this was a great move.

    It's interesting to me how easily someone could figure this coin for a tremendously different price. If the coin were sold at auction tomorrow, I could see the coin hammering anywhere from 300K to 600K. >>



    Can't the same thing be said for many "big" coins? The 1796 1c in MS66 RB in the Naftzger sale, for example.
  • <GULP> Did you say $575,000?!?!?! image Awesome and Congrats!image
    Chaz

    Proud recipient of Y.S. Award on 07/26/08.
  • StaircoinsStaircoins Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭

    Stunning coin. Congratulations on the sale.

    Mike

  • StuartStuart Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2019 9:22AM

    Thought I’d rejuvenate this 10 year old (Jan 2009) classic @Oreville thread about the sale of his 1875-S PCGS MS-67 $20 Gold Liberty Double Eagle for reference, since it has recently been mentioned in the “SuperNova” thread.


    Stuart

    Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal

    "Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Most interestingly it is still a pop 1 with the next runner up ms64+

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Super coin !

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,896 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pristine example!!!

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    While no other Type MS67's have come to light since 1995....I have to wonder if the making of more MS67's in Type 3's and even Type 1's has softened the value of this 1875-s? Or is the demand for "unique" and top pop "extreme" gold coins stronger than ever?

    The SS Central America hoard put hundreds of gem 1857-s 20's into the market. In a way, those are "replacements" for someone wanting a gem early $20 (whether T1. or T2.). And from a "coolness" factor, I'd give the nod to the 1857-s Type 1's since they are now type coins. How about another shipwreck discovery coming to market that went down in 1875-1878? That would be interesting to say the least.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @washingtonrainbows said:
    Speaking of @oreville has anyone spoken to or seen him recently. Great guy.

    I last heard from him about a year ago when he allowed me to examine his collection for a book. I emailed him a couple of times over the past week, but have not had a reply.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,011 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have never found "exchanges" of quality coins for something else advantageous, especially when dealing with sharp industry insiders. Much better to try to get the top price for your material and then negotiate a price on what you want to buy!

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Damn...I just liked a ten year old thread.

    :#

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,011 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Realone said:

    @logger7 said:
    I have never found "exchanges" of quality coins for something else advantageous, especially when dealing with sharp industry insiders. Much better to try to get the top price for your material and then negotiate a price on what you want to buy!

    And you would be wrong. I did an exchange with Rick Snow and came out quite happy with the results of the exchange. I would do it again and again if given the chance with him.

    That's different than my experience with sharp buyers.

  • StuartStuart Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Oreville is a Great Guy, who always provided excellent insight on my $20 Liberty Gold Double Eagles!😁👍


    Stuart

    Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal

    "Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
  • NicNic Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Lakesammman said:
    Texted Oreville today - he's alive and well, just busy.

    He notes the old tax law allowed a like-kind exchange so as a CPA, made sense to him, I guess, rather than paying the 28% tax.

    Encouraged him to make a cameo appearance. :D

    Too busy to ever attend our FUN dinners. :#

    Great guy. Hoping for a cameo appearance!

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭

    FUN dinners are the best - but don't want to highjack this thread. :D

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Stuart said:
    I was able to find the following👇2 Obverse (only) Images of Oreville’s 1875-S PCGS MS-67 $20 Gold Liberty Double Eagle via Google Search link to @Oreville PCGS Coin Photo Album.

    Way better than the "supernova;" this one is a real 67. No comparison IMHO...

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019 4:26AM

    If the adult daughter who is getting married is the same one interested in a dog training center and facility .....well your a VERY generous daddy to help her buy the property !

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,011 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It was great to hear from "Oreville" and I hope everything goes well with the wedding. I once worked on an organic farm in Westtown, NY, I would be looking in that area as CT would too much of a challenge and too expensive.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file