<< <i>For anyone that wants to look, Cameron was the hi bidder on a 2008 W Platinum Proof set at $5,499 yesterday for a set he had been selling on eBay for $2,150! Let him explain that one, the answer is obvious to me. >>
But it is not so obvious to me. Why on earth would someone pay that much for a platinum proof set? If the implication was that it was done to satisfy one of the $2150 sales, I don't get it. Why dig the hole deeper?
One does not spend upwards of 3 grand to get a single positive rating on eBay.
What am I missing? Also, you can find these 2008 plat proof sets on eBay for less than $5,500.
Two things I find disturbing: The lack of transparency as far as what is going on. And that we can see enough tidbits to make us scratch out head as to what is going on.
It is a puzzle; that is what keeps my attention. I'd like to understand it. Or perhaps not.
I am selling a PCGS-PR70DCAM 4-pc set of 2008-W Platinum for less than $5,500 on ebay (with a "best offer" on top of that)?? Why would anyone pay that price for a raw set or a PR69DC set?? Bizarre.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>For anyone that wants to look, Cameron was the hi bidder on a 2008 W Platinum Proof set at $5,499 yesterday for a set he had been selling on eBay for $2,150! Let him explain that one, the answer is obvious to me. >>
But it is not so obvious to me. Why on earth would someone pay that much for a platinum proof set? If the implication was that it was done to satisfy one of the $2150 sales, I don't get it. Why dig the hole deeper?
One does not spend upwards of 3 grand to get a single positive rating on eBay.
What am I missing? Also, you can find these 2008 plat proof sets on eBay for less than $5,500.
Two things I find disturbing: The lack of transparency as far as what is going on. And that we can see enough tidbits to make us scratch out head as to what is going on.
It is a puzzle; that is what keeps my attention. I'd like to understand it. Or perhaps not. >>
<< <i>I am selling a PCGS-PR70DCAM 4-pc set of 2008-W Platinum for less than $5,500 on ebay (with a "best offer" on top of that)?? Why would anyone pay that price for a raw set or a PR69DC set?? Bizarre.
Wondercoin >>
Maybe he didn't want the wrath of the wondercoin when this set got lost in the mail.
For that price he should buy PR70DCAM sets from Mitch (or me) and get some uber good will from the customers he owes coins to. Miles, would you be OK if he sent you a set of PR70DCAM? --Jerry
<< <i>what a doozy. that last post by gat about buying that set makes very little sense.
why in the world would you buy a set for approx 3000 more then ones you were trying to sell just a little bit ago? >>
There is 1 reason I can think of......someone who had won one of the earlier ones threatening about getting what he bought rather than just a refund. I have seen folks say "well, if you don't have what you sold, for whatever reason, you should still deliver one even if it means you buy it on the market and send it to the other person".
That's the only reason I can think of but I have seen folks say that is what should be done (note: I disagree and feel that if, for whatever reason, one cannot deliver what is sold, one should refund, in whole, the amount that was paid and call it a null sale)
Although I did receive a full refund for the set that I bought from him that was "lost in the mail", given what I'm seeing now - I'm convinced he never had them to begin with. I asked for tracking information, or at least a scan of the insurance slip that he claimed he had for my package, but he never supplied any proof of shipment.
<< <i>For that price he should buy PR70DCAM sets from Mitch (or me) and get some uber good will from the customers he owes coins to. Miles, would you be OK if he sent you a set of PR70DCAM? --Jerry >>
I recieved a quick refund soon after the auction ended, prior to shipping.
I will await the Mint's Lottery system for my Proof Plat set Jerry.
"More lam excuses that the Post Office stole the sets, this is getting old and the facts speak for them self. "
What facts are you refering too? The facts (aka: specultation and inuendo's) presented by coinboy? This one puts everybody and I mean EVERYBODY on these boards under the umbrella of suspicion: "I'm sure a group of guys on this Board have already emailed him on the side to try and help him unload the sets he kept and did not send out." Followed by: "Yup, I am sure a guy doing this will have lots of sociopath helpers unloading the stuff. "
Or perhaps the facts (aka: speculation) provided by 2manycoins2fewfunds ?
IMO, Cameron's shipments were targeted due to insurance on Priority Mail packages where the culprit let the cheapies slide and picked up the big ones instead. But then......thats just speculation on my part as well.
The real facts in this situation is that there are no facts! Just simple, derogatory and malicious suspicions.
I've known Cameron for years and feel confident that this will work out in the end. After all, a true scam would never have refunded the money to the buyers.
As for getting information from the USPS, good luck. I believe its a 30 day window before they'll even address lost mail because it must be shown that its truely lost. Insurance claims are only handled immediately if the package was delivered damaged and empty.
IMO, the true travesty here is the constant pounding dished out by coinboy, GAT, and a couple of others over simple inuendo based upon unconfirmed suspicions. For whatever reason, these folks feel the need to pound their chests and blow tgheir own horns at their detective work. I believe that Cameron has way more important issues to deal with than responding to this forum or this thread so his absence is understandable IMO.
I trust Cameron completely and have absolutely no doubts regarding his integrity or business practices. He's a fulltime one man show and being new to the coin dealing business can be a learning experience that is filled with pitfalls and dumb mistakes.
This appears to have been a dumb mistake for which he is now paying the price. Good Luck Cameron!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>For that price he should buy PR70DCAM sets from Mitch (or me) and get some uber good will from the customers he owes coins to. Miles, would you be OK if he sent you a set of PR70DCAM? --Jerry >>
I recieved a quick refund soon after the auction ended, prior to shipping.
I will await the Mint's Lottery system for my Proof Plat set Jerry.
all i know, if it was me in this situation, i would be putting insurance reciepts on my scanner and emailing each person proof of it being shipped so fast you would be amazed.
i see no problem with how Cam sold, shipped, and did these deals. how he prices things or ships them is his call.
but to let this thread go so long when you could very easily just say, "here buyers... this is the information you requested on this very large purchase. I am sorry for all of this. It truly sucks for all concerned. Feel free to report this as you see fit to the board."
He really owes us nothing on this board as we were not part of the deal.
just my two cents. i refrained from posting until i read Gat's last post about buying a set for 5Gs. That is just odd. Refund the money to the buyers... do not dig a hole even deeper financially if the packages were simply lost or stolen. No one expects that in my opinion.
Wow, I just read most of this thread. Wow. Some comments:
1) The business dealings are between the buyer and seller. Neither is accountable to report every deal to the PCGS forums, however, prompt disclosures from the seller to the buyers could have reduced the forum chatter.
2) I have underinsured a package before.... nothing of this magnitude, and perhaps not even a sale item but maybe a gift to a family member. Sometimes it seams the extra $ to cover a higher amount when a signature is already required is excessive compared to the risk reduction gained.
3) I don't like seeing anyones reputation ruined when those ruining it may not have all the facts.
4) It will be interesting to hear the end result--if we hear it--going back to number 1 that the deal is between the buyer and seller, and the forum is not a policy body overseeing it.
I, for one, do not believe I posted negatively about C.K. from the very beginning - in fact, my earlier posts were supportive of C.K. and my latest posts were neutral at worst. But, like many Proof Platinum enthusiasts, I certainly have an interest in the various auctions being discussed here. Consider...
1. First, for a week or two, C.K. was selling 08 proof sets for at least roughly $500 "under market" (taking into account ebay fees), but, it certainly gave the appearance to many watchers that the sets were only worth below mint issue price.
2. Now, I read that C.K. may have recently paid up to THOUSANDS of dollars more for an 08 platinum set than what I would sell the set for today raw or in PR69DCAM holders (and even more than I sell my PCGS-PR70DCAM set for)! Giving the appearance now to many watchers that the sets are worth way, way more than they truly are today in raw or PR69DCAM grade IMHO.
I, like many others, are simply curious about these events, especially because I sell these coins on a daily basis myself. I don't think it can be seriously questioned that these events are a bit unusual - no?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>I, for one, do not believe I posted negatively about C.K. from the very beginning - in fact, my earlier posts were supportive of C.K. and my latest posts were neutral at worst. But, like many Proof Platinum enthusiasts, I certainly have an interest in the various auctions being discussed here. Consider...
1. First, for a week or two, C.K. was selling 08 proof sets for at least roughly $500 "under market" (taking into account ebay fees), but, it certainly gave the appearance to many watchers that the sets were only worth below mint issue price.
2. Now, I read that C.K. may have recently paid up to THOUSANDS of dollars more for an 08 platinum set than what I would sell the set for today raw or in PR69DCAM holders (and even more than I sell my PCGS-PR70DCAM set for)! Giving the appearance now to many watchers that the sets are worth way, way more than they truly are today in raw or PR69DCAM grade IMHO.
I, like many others, are simply curious about these events, especially because I sell these coins on a daily basis myself. I don't think it can be seriously questioned that these events are a bit unusual - no?
Mitch, no one can forget that CK failed to take you up on your generous offer to be a go between and prove him innocent but he refused to accept it. There could be only one reason why and you know the answer.
I think people need to remember that while many post here this is still a mostly anonymous message board, and caution is always in order when dealing when anyone.
That includes both buyer and seller as we know.
PS If anyone still has 2008 plat proof sets for $2150 PM me and I will buy fifty.
<< <i>I think people need to remember that while many post here this is still a mostly anonymous message board, and caution is always in order when dealing when anyone.
That includes both buyer and seller as we know.
PS If anyone still has 2008 plat proof sets for $2150 PM me and I will buy fifty.
In your dreams, LOL. >>
I will double that to buying 100 and I am sure Mitch and John would double me to 200 sets if they could find them.
I never respond to these kind of threads but I truly feel bad for Cameron. Met him in person a few times, good guy, honest here on the forum. Great future ahead of him, then he decided to be a dealer. Hope he didn't get corrupted or greedy. Greed ruins good people every day. Or, I should say Good people let themselves be ruined by greed every day.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
I haven't drawn any negative conclusions yet about Cameron but I have observed some facts (yes Lee, the stolen photos are indeed facts) that cast a very negative shadow and for a seller who wasn't an all around superhero good guy here on the forums would have him convicted, sentenced, and history by now. I can see how Coinboy has drawn his conclusion and we generally respect people here for speaking their mind. But you don't become a superhero here without good reason so many of us are very befuddled and withholding judgment.
The latest fact, buying platinum on ebay at WAY over market for raw coins, has me befuddled.
I have read and watched this tread from the the original post. The one person who can [if he wants/wanted to] make this any better simply has NOT. It seems that that has been his choice for whatever reason. Not a choice any business person should make if they want to continue in that business. It appears that in the few weeks that have passed since this issue started Cameron has done little [if anything] beyond refunding buyers. This smells rotten period. Many "Good" people go bad daily, just read the paper or watch the news. Why would anyone think these same people we read about are not here and on Ebay. I for one think Coinboy was pretty articulate and on target here, just maybe needed to change his pitch! Cheers!
It's a shame to reveal the truth to a seller who is in denial, whether over photo misuse, falsifying descriptions, product misrep (sure, these coins in these vacuum packed food bags are First Strike eligible, ...and they're unsearched!), or whatever.
Yes, many often do make a last futile struggle, one way or another.
It's hard to tell when a seller is being a shyster-type crook or just being a blithering idiot.
Another time, another place, another product, ...things might have been different.
It's a shame to reveal the truth to a seller who is in denial, whether over photo misuse, falsifying descriptions, product misrep (sure, these coins in these vacuum packed food bags are First Strike eligible, ...and they're unsearched!), or whatever.
Yes, many often do make a last futile struggle, one way or another.
It's hard to tell when a seller is being a shyster-type crook or just being a blithering idiot.
Another time, another place, another product, ...things might have been different. >>
Is it possible that the infamous Cammie once he realized the true value of those sets got cold feet and decided renege on those BIN sales and to pull a scam? Then after realizing just how rare these sets are started to buy more and more of these sets in speculation that the price would explode over night? Just a theory....
<< <i>Alot of you are dumb asses... Carmeron owes nothing to you, he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone but his buyers... Coinboy you can STFU, you're acting like a child. 2manycoins2fewfunds, I'm sure if you were affected personally Cam would be happy to pm you a pic... otherwise you can STFU too. >>
If YOU followed your own logic, you should shut-up, you moron.
I almost bought one of the Sets, but my gut said it was too good to be true.
I did this NOT even knowing it was your beloved "Cammie"
Edited to be more Civil >>
Coinboy is a pure and simple jackass. Forgive him for his assine actions. >>
It's a well know fact, Flippers eat there Young...
Several buyers have accepted a refund (then gave me negs) and a couple only wanted sets no matter what. I was one set short so I bought it on ebay after John Maben, Cameo CC and others didn't have raw sets or 69's. Is that a high price? i guess so. I'm not trying to infulence any market. I'm trying to make a buyer happy and get him a set asap. I am taking the loss. Plain and simple.
I'm done with this thread. I appreciate support from some and don't understand why people have to second guess "why" I bought a set, why I don't do this and that.
if the package was lost in the mail you went about the transaction in good faith and should not have to spend 5Gs to replace it. in my opinion, you do not let a buyer demand squat when the mistake was made by a 3rd party and you have to lose 3Gs to correct it. That is an insane way to operate in my opinion. Just refund the money and move on. That is all a "sane" buyer would expect in such a situation.
CAM, It appears like you broke your sale contract out of greed because you later realized the merchandise was worth more. If you really shipped the merchandise then just prove it to the buyers with the shipment receipts. Failing to do this gives the appearance that you are guilty. Of course, since it appears that you didn't ship the merchandise, you don't actually need to buy them. That might explain the "fishy" purchase as a BIN at over market. Of course you could just come clean... It's only your reputation.
<< <i>if the package was lost in the mail you went about the transaction in good faith and should not have to spend 5Gs to replace it. in my opinion, you do not let a buyer demand squat when the mistake was made by a 3rd party and you have to lose 3Gs to correct it. That is an insane way to operate in my opinion. Just refund the money and move on. That is all a "sane" buyer would expect in such a situation. >>
I agree. If the seller can provide proof of shipment to the buyer, the buyer should be satisfied with the refund. IF the buyer was provided with such proof of shipment, and still negs the seller, then eBay should remove the neg. Not sure if they would or not, but they should.
<<Several buyers have accepted a refund (then gave me negs) and a couple only wanted sets no matter what. I was one set short so I bought it on ebay after John Maben, Cameo CC and others didn't have raw sets or 69's. Is that a high price? i guess so. I'm not trying to infulence any market. I'm trying to make a buyer happy and get him a set asap. I am taking the loss. Plain and simple.
I'm done with this thread. I appreciate support from some and don't understand why people have to second guess "why" I bought a set, why I don't do this and that. >>
I've been following this thread for a couple of days and as a direct party to this situation, decided to refrain from commenting before Cameron had the opportunity to provide his own explanation...
For all the cynics out there, let me absolutely confirm what Cameron has said above...in my case, he absolutely offered to provide me with the missing coin set on the original terms at a VERY substantial loss to himself via the open market. In my case, this was not necessary as I'm not out to damage anyone financially. So instead we've agreed to settle on very amicable terms with an offer to do business in the future should the opportunity arise. Obviously, other parties weren't as agreeable.
So that's my side of the story...which agrees with Cameron's explanation/sequence of events.
And Happy New Year to all...hopefully it will be better for everyone than 2008!
Regards, Rich
And PS...this will really become moot once those downwardly adjusted Plat Unc numbers come in!!!
<< <i>Several buyers have accepted a refund (then gave me negs) and a couple only wanted sets no matter what. I was one set short so I bought it on ebay after John Maben, Cameo CC and others didn't have raw sets or 69's. Is that a high price? i guess so. I'm not trying to infulence any market. I'm trying to make a buyer happy and get him a set asap. I am taking the loss. Plain and simple.
I'm done with this thread. I appreciate support from some and don't understand why people have to second guess "why" I bought a set, why I don't do this and that.
Cameron Kiefer >>
OK, I've kept quiet for a while on purpose and now it's time to add my final thoughts. Cam's deaings are between him and his customers. He owes no one on this board an explanation except those involved in transactions, but has offered some explanation anyway. I have no doubt he made some quite frankly stupid mistakes and is too embarrassed to go into any greater detail than he already has, but he doesn't need to. He has always been stand up and it is just plain wrong to speculate or suggest wrong doing beyond anything proven. If I was him, I would never forget those that declared him a deadbeat crook and those that were objective or supportive because his reputation has value.
I am enlightened by the shear brutality of some in this thread and it is sickening. That said I am all about freedom of expressing opinions and will not think less of those that disagree with me but if I was Cam, I sure would.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
I have not opened this thread since the first few days. I cannot recall if I commented then or not. Anyhow, a few thoughts now...
-I have not dealt with Cameron personally.
-If I'm reading this information on here correctly, it appears that tracking numbers were never even provided to those who made the purchases? If I am wrong, I am sure someone will correct me. However, if that is true, it strikes me as odd and questionable.
-I am surprised at the level of vitriol on this thread. I was surprised it wasn't poofed 100 posts ago for all the attacks on each other.
-my Mocha flavored coffee that I just brewed tastes MUCH better with french vanilla creamer than hazelnut creamer.
OK, I've kept quiet for a while on purpose and now it's time to add my final thoughts. Cam's deaings are between him and his customers. He owes no one on this board an explanation except those involved in transactions, but has offered some explanation anyway. I have no doubt he made some quite frankly stupid mistakes and is too embarrassed to go into any greater detail than he already has, but he doesn't need to. He has always been stand up and it is just plain wrong to speculate or suggest wrong doing beyond anything proven. If I was him, I would never forget those that declared him a deadbeat crook and those that were objective or supportive because his reputation has value.
I am enlightened by the shear brutality of some in this thread and it is sickening. That said I am all about freedom of expressing opinions and will not think less of those that disagree with me but if I was Cam, I sure would.
<< <i>Several buyers have accepted a refund (then gave me negs) and a couple only wanted sets no matter what. I was one set short so I bought it on ebay after John Maben, Cameo CC and others didn't have raw sets or 69's. Is that a high price? i guess so. I'm not trying to infulence any market. I'm trying to make a buyer happy and get him a set asap. I am taking the loss. Plain and simple.
I'm done with this thread. I appreciate support from some and don't understand why people have to second guess "why" I bought a set, why I don't do this and that.
Cameron Kiefer >>
OK, I've kept quiet for a while on purpose and now it's time to add my final thoughts. Cam's deaings are between him and his customers. He owes no one on this board an explanation except those involved in transactions, but has offered some explanation anyway. I have no doubt he made some quite frankly stupid mistakes and is too embarrassed to go into any greater detail than he already has, but he doesn't need to. He has always been stand up and it is just plain wrong to speculate or suggest wrong doing beyond anything proven. If I was him, I would never forget those that declared him a deadbeat crook and those that were objective or supportive because his reputation has value.
I am enlightened by the shear brutality of some in this thread and it is sickening. That said I am all about freedom of expressing opinions and will not think less of those that disagree with me but if I was Cam, I sure would.
<< <i>That might explain the "fishy" purchase as a BIN at over market. >>
That's your opinion. The seller also believed this set to be worth the $$ hence the BIN in the first place. I believe these proof sets, given the extremely low mintage and the fact that they're just aren't many for sale on Ebay especially just after sellout, are worth even more than what was BIN'd by Cameron at this time. The guy needed a RAW proof set, not a 70's set. I also like'm raw!
Dunkin rocks! But amazingly enough so does MickyD's for coffee. >>
Yea, but their donuts have really gone down hill. I have three law enforcement guys that work here and they are essentially the American Idol panel for judging donuts.
Isn't this alot more fun then hanging someone in this thread?
Yes, I know I spelled alot wrong.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
Have not read much of thread(first and last few) and it seems seller is correcting the situation with the buyers,ASAP..............Can see the problems in sale or "presale" as the case may be,as long as the seller makes whole the buyers,not too much harm done..IMO.
I like and respect Cameron, and nothing that has been said here will change that. In fact, if anything, I hold him in even higher esteem. He is taking his lumps in all this, but has learned his lesson and will do better next time.
In the mean time, I am supporting him by bidding on his ebay auctions for items that I usually do not collect but will give to my son and other YNs for their collections. Maybe some others who want to help him will do the same.
In the mean time, I am supporting him by bidding on his ebay auctions for items that I usually do not collect but will give to my son and other YNs for their collections. Maybe some others who want to help him will do the same.
For those of you surprised by the brutality displayed in this thread ... come on, really???
To me, the situation is clear ... Cameron is a young and inexperienced businessman who made some dumb business decisions. Had such decisions been made by someone with more experience who had been doing this for years, they would definitely be deemed shady and underhanded. However, dumb decisions are expected to be made by someone in Cameron's position who lacks the experience that necessarily flows from screwing up. The part of this situation which leaves a bad taste in one's mouth is the manner in which he handled the crisis he created. Had he been forthcoming and openly divulged the facts as we all know they really are, claimed inexperience, admitted his stupid mistake, vowed to learn from it and delivered the goods to those he contracted to do so with even if he lost money on each deal (especially if he lost money on each deal), the mob wouldn't be riding him out of town on the rail upon which he presently finds himself. Unfortunately, the inexperience that led him create this crisis is also leading him to handle the situation poorly now that his questionable actions have been revealed. His reputation in the numismatic community is now significantly tarnished ... and rightly so. One cannot build a reputation upon the accolades of a forum and then claim that said forum has no right to judge one's actions when one acts like a tard. Nonetheless, Cameron may still salvage a piece of his former reputation if he acts accordingly. There is a reason why high profile individuals admit their mistakes and throw themselves upon the mercy of the media when caught doing something particularly nasty ... it is because they have hired high priced spin doctors who know that the mob will be sympathetic when properly coerced. Good luck Cameron and I hope for your sake that post of yours was not truly your last word on the issue ...
Personally, I do not question Cameron's integrity at all.
I do believe that the packages are either lost or misplaced and sincerely hope that those buyers which received refunds will also return the coins should they appear in their mail boxes in the near future. It is afterall (or was) the Christmas mailing season and there are (or were) major storms out east.
I also believe that he has not posted tracking information for his own personal reasons, which he has already stated, and that that specific information is really none of the forums business anyway. And just for the record, the forums did not make Cameron, Cameron made Cameron.
For those folks that have posted nasty, malicious innuendo's based totally on suspicions that were not only aimed at Cameron but at every other forum member here, I say shame on you! Those of us that know Cameron on a personal and business level realize that the truth will come out and that apologies should be forth coming.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>If Cameron was trying to perpetuate some kind of grand scam, why would he have refunded anyone? I have no doubt he will be vindicated here. >>
The whole issue was not that he might be stealing someones money but rather that once he realized he sold coins 10-15K below market that he quickly came up with a 'lost in the mail excuse' and refunded money.
<< <i>If Cameron was trying to perpetuate some kind of grand scam, why would he have refunded anyone? I have no doubt he will be vindicated here. >>
The whole issue was not that he might be stealing someones money but rather that once he realized he sold coins 10-15K below market that he quickly came up with a 'lost in the mail excuse' and refunded money. >>
Which is total speculation based upon someones twisted paranoid thoughts and totally out of character for what Cameron is. Those of us that know Cameron, know that this is totally untrue and to even suggest this scenario simply indicates one's own paranoia.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
not convicting or dismissing but we all remember Darin5, don't we?. ALL of the packages got lost? I NEVER lost a coin either way and he loses a bunch at once and they just happen to be underpriced? Quite convenient. Just come clean, kid. You'll feel better.
Comments
<< <i>For anyone that wants to look, Cameron was the hi bidder on a 2008 W Platinum Proof set at $5,499 yesterday for a set he had been selling on eBay for $2,150! Let him explain that one, the answer is obvious to me. >>
But it is not so obvious to me. Why on earth would someone pay that much for a platinum proof set? If the implication was that it was done to satisfy one of the $2150 sales, I don't get it. Why dig the hole deeper?
One does not spend upwards of 3 grand to get a single positive rating on eBay.
What am I missing? Also, you can find these 2008 plat proof sets on eBay for less than $5,500.
Two things I find disturbing:
The lack of transparency as far as what is going on.
And that we can see enough tidbits to make us scratch out head as to what is going on.
It is a puzzle; that is what keeps my attention. I'd like to understand it. Or perhaps not.
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>For anyone that wants to look, Cameron was the hi bidder on a 2008 W Platinum Proof set at $5,499 yesterday for a set he had been selling on eBay for $2,150! Let him explain that one, the answer is obvious to me. >>
But it is not so obvious to me. Why on earth would someone pay that much for a platinum proof set? If the implication was that it was done to satisfy one of the $2150 sales, I don't get it. Why dig the hole deeper?
One does not spend upwards of 3 grand to get a single positive rating on eBay.
What am I missing? Also, you can find these 2008 plat proof sets on eBay for less than $5,500.
Two things I find disturbing:
The lack of transparency as far as what is going on.
And that we can see enough tidbits to make us scratch out head as to what is going on.
It is a puzzle; that is what keeps my attention. I'd like to understand it. Or perhaps not. >>
Youth and inexperience.
<< <i>I am selling a PCGS-PR70DCAM 4-pc set of 2008-W Platinum for less than $5,500 on ebay (with a "best offer" on top of that)?? Why would anyone pay that price for a raw set or a PR69DC set?? Bizarre.
Wondercoin >>
Maybe he didn't want the wrath of the wondercoin when this set got lost in the mail.
very little sense.
why in the world would you buy a set for approx 3000 more then ones
you were trying to sell just a little bit ago?
Where there's smoke there's fire?
<< <i>what a doozy. that last post by gat about buying that set makes
very little sense.
why in the world would you buy a set for approx 3000 more then ones
you were trying to sell just a little bit ago? >>
There is 1 reason I can think of......someone who had won one of the earlier ones threatening about getting what he bought rather than just a refund. I have seen folks say "well, if you don't have what you sold, for whatever reason, you should still deliver one even if it means you buy it on the market and send it to the other person".
That's the only reason I can think of but I have seen folks say that is what should be done (note: I disagree and feel that if, for whatever reason, one cannot deliver what is sold, one should refund, in whole, the amount that was paid and call it a null sale)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I asked for tracking information, or at least a scan of the insurance slip that he claimed he had for my package, but he never supplied any proof of shipment.
<< <i>For that price he should buy PR70DCAM sets from Mitch (or me) and get some uber good will from the customers he owes coins to. Miles, would you be OK if he sent you a set of PR70DCAM? --Jerry >>
I recieved a quick refund soon after the auction ended, prior to shipping.
I will await the Mint's Lottery system for my Proof Plat set Jerry.
Miles
What facts are you refering too? The facts (aka: specultation and inuendo's) presented by coinboy?
This one puts everybody and I mean EVERYBODY on these boards under the umbrella of suspicion: "I'm sure a group of guys on this Board have already emailed him on the side to try and help him unload the sets he kept and did not send out." Followed by: "Yup, I am sure a guy doing this will have lots of sociopath helpers unloading the stuff. "
Or perhaps the facts (aka: speculation) provided by 2manycoins2fewfunds ?
IMO, Cameron's shipments were targeted due to insurance on Priority Mail packages where the culprit let the cheapies slide and picked up the big ones instead. But then......thats just speculation on my part as well.
The real facts in this situation is that there are no facts! Just simple, derogatory and malicious suspicions.
I've known Cameron for years and feel confident that this will work out in the end. After all, a true scam would never have refunded the money to the buyers.
As for getting information from the USPS, good luck. I believe its a 30 day window before they'll even address lost mail because it must be shown that its truely lost. Insurance claims are only handled immediately if the package was delivered damaged and empty.
IMO, the true travesty here is the constant pounding dished out by coinboy, GAT, and a couple of others over simple inuendo based upon unconfirmed suspicions. For whatever reason, these folks feel the need to pound their chests and blow tgheir own horns at their detective work. I believe that Cameron has way more important issues to deal with than responding to this forum or this thread so his absence is understandable IMO.
I trust Cameron completely and have absolutely no doubts regarding his integrity or business practices. He's a fulltime one man show and being new to the coin dealing business can be a learning experience that is filled with pitfalls and dumb mistakes.
This appears to have been a dumb mistake for which he is now paying the price. Good Luck Cameron!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>For that price he should buy PR70DCAM sets from Mitch (or me) and get some uber good will from the customers he owes coins to. Miles, would you be OK if he sent you a set of PR70DCAM? --Jerry >>
I recieved a quick refund soon after the auction ended, prior to shipping.
I will await the Mint's Lottery system for my Proof Plat set Jerry.
Miles >>
why did you get a refund before shipping???
Miles
all i know, if it was me in this situation, i would be putting insurance
reciepts on my scanner and emailing each person proof of it being
shipped so fast you would be amazed.
i see no problem with how Cam sold, shipped, and did these deals.
how he prices things or ships them is his call.
but to let this thread go so long when you could very easily just say,
"here buyers... this is the information you requested on this very
large purchase. I am sorry for all of this. It truly sucks for all concerned. Feel free to report this as you see fit to the board."
He really owes us nothing on this board as we were not part of the deal.
just my two cents. i refrained from posting until i read Gat's last post
about buying a set for 5Gs. That is just odd. Refund the money to
the buyers... do not dig a hole even deeper financially if the packages
were simply lost or stolen. No one expects that in my opinion.
back to the sidelines for me i guess.
1) The business dealings are between the buyer and seller. Neither is accountable to report every deal to the PCGS forums, however, prompt disclosures from the seller to the buyers could have reduced the forum chatter.
2) I have underinsured a package before.... nothing of this magnitude, and perhaps not even a sale item but maybe a gift to a family member. Sometimes it seams the extra $ to cover a higher amount when a signature is already required is excessive compared to the risk reduction gained.
3) I don't like seeing anyones reputation ruined when those ruining it may not have all the facts.
4) It will be interesting to hear the end result--if we hear it--going back to number 1 that the deal is between the buyer and seller, and the forum is not a policy body overseeing it.
1. First, for a week or two, C.K. was selling 08 proof sets for at least roughly $500 "under market" (taking into account ebay fees), but, it certainly gave the appearance to many watchers that the sets were only worth below mint issue price.
2. Now, I read that C.K. may have recently paid up to THOUSANDS of dollars more for an 08 platinum set than what I would sell the set for today raw or in PR69DCAM holders (and even more than I sell my PCGS-PR70DCAM set for)! Giving the appearance now to many watchers that the sets are worth way, way more than they truly are today in raw or PR69DCAM grade IMHO.
I, like many others, are simply curious about these events, especially because I sell these coins on a daily basis myself. I don't think it can be seriously questioned that these events are a bit unusual - no?
Wondercoin
<< <i>I, for one, do not believe I posted negatively about C.K. from the very beginning - in fact, my earlier posts were supportive of C.K. and my latest posts were neutral at worst. But, like many Proof Platinum enthusiasts, I certainly have an interest in the various auctions being discussed here. Consider...
1. First, for a week or two, C.K. was selling 08 proof sets for at least roughly $500 "under market" (taking into account ebay fees), but, it certainly gave the appearance to many watchers that the sets were only worth below mint issue price.
2. Now, I read that C.K. may have recently paid up to THOUSANDS of dollars more for an 08 platinum set than what I would sell the set for today raw or in PR69DCAM holders (and even more than I sell my PCGS-PR70DCAM set for)! Giving the appearance now to many watchers that the sets are worth way, way more than they truly are today in raw or PR69DCAM grade IMHO.
I, like many others, are simply curious about these events, especially because I sell these coins on a daily basis myself. I don't think it can be seriously questioned that these events are a bit unusual - no?
Mitch, no one can forget that CK failed to take you up on your generous offer to be a go between and prove him innocent but he refused to accept it. There could be only one reason why and you know the answer.
Wondercoin >>
That includes both buyer and seller as we know.
PS If anyone still has 2008 plat proof sets for $2150 PM me and I will buy fifty.
In your dreams, LOL.
<< <i>I think people need to remember that while many post here this is still a mostly anonymous message board, and caution is always in order when dealing when anyone.
That includes both buyer and seller as we know.
PS If anyone still has 2008 plat proof sets for $2150 PM me and I will buy fifty.
In your dreams, LOL. >>
I will double that to buying 100 and I am sure Mitch and John would double me to 200 sets if they could find them.
of him, then he decided to be a dealer. Hope he didn't get corrupted or greedy. Greed ruins good people every day. Or, I should say Good people let themselves be ruined by greed every day.
The latest fact, buying platinum on ebay at WAY over market for raw coins, has me befuddled.
--Jerry
It's a shame to reveal the truth to a seller who is in denial, whether over photo misuse, falsifying descriptions, product misrep (sure, these coins in these vacuum packed food bags are First Strike eligible, ...and they're unsearched!), or whatever.
Yes, many often do make a last futile struggle, one way or another.
It's hard to tell when a seller is being a shyster-type crook or just being a blithering idiot.
Another time, another place, another product, ...things might have been different.
<< <i>I just read all this. It's a drag.
It's a shame to reveal the truth to a seller who is in denial, whether over photo misuse, falsifying descriptions, product misrep (sure, these coins in these vacuum packed food bags are First Strike eligible, ...and they're unsearched!), or whatever.
Yes, many often do make a last futile struggle, one way or another.
It's hard to tell when a seller is being a shyster-type crook or just being a blithering idiot.
Another time, another place, another product, ...things might have been different. >>
Is it possible that the infamous Cammie once he realized the true value of those sets got cold feet and decided renege on those BIN sales and to pull a scam? Then after realizing just how rare these sets are started to buy more and more of these sets in speculation that the price would explode over night? Just a theory....
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Alot of you are dumb asses... Carmeron owes nothing to you, he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone but his buyers... Coinboy you can STFU, you're acting like a child. 2manycoins2fewfunds, I'm sure if you were affected personally Cam would be happy to pm you a pic... otherwise you can STFU too. >>
If YOU followed your own logic, you should shut-up, you moron.
I almost bought one of the Sets, but my gut said it was too good to be true.
I did this NOT even knowing it was your beloved "Cammie"
Edited to be more Civil
Coinboy is a pure and simple jackass. Forgive him for his assine actions. >>
It's a well know fact, Flippers eat there Young...
Currently Listed: Nothing
Take Care, Dave
I'm done with this thread. I appreciate support from some and don't understand why people have to second guess "why" I bought a set, why I don't do this and that.
Cameron Kiefer
and should not have to spend 5Gs to replace it. in my opinion, you do not let a buyer
demand squat when the mistake was made by a 3rd party and you have to lose 3Gs
to correct it. That is an insane way to operate in my opinion. Just refund the money
and move on. That is all a "sane" buyer would expect in such a situation.
That is why it sounds strange to many of us. fyi.
<< <i>if the package was lost in the mail you went about the transaction in good faith
and should not have to spend 5Gs to replace it. in my opinion, you do not let a buyer
demand squat when the mistake was made by a 3rd party and you have to lose 3Gs
to correct it. That is an insane way to operate in my opinion. Just refund the money
and move on. That is all a "sane" buyer would expect in such a situation. >>
I agree. If the seller can provide proof of shipment to the buyer, the buyer should be satisfied with the refund. IF the buyer was provided with such proof of shipment, and still negs the seller, then eBay should remove the neg. Not sure if they would or not, but they should.
I'm done with this thread. I appreciate support from some and don't understand why people have to second guess "why" I bought a set, why I don't do this and that. >>
I've been following this thread for a couple of days and as a direct party to this situation, decided to refrain from commenting before Cameron had the opportunity to provide his own explanation...
For all the cynics out there, let me absolutely confirm what Cameron has said above...in my case, he absolutely offered to provide me with the missing coin set on the original terms at a VERY substantial loss to himself via the open market. In my case, this was not necessary as I'm not out to damage anyone financially. So instead we've agreed to settle on very amicable terms with an offer to do business in the future should the opportunity arise. Obviously, other parties weren't as agreeable.
So that's my side of the story...which agrees with Cameron's explanation/sequence of events.
And Happy New Year to all...hopefully it will be better for everyone than 2008!
Regards, Rich
And PS...this will really become moot once those downwardly adjusted Plat Unc numbers come in!!!
<< <i>Several buyers have accepted a refund (then gave me negs) and a couple only wanted sets no matter what. I was one set short so I bought it on ebay after John Maben, Cameo CC and others didn't have raw sets or 69's. Is that a high price? i guess so. I'm not trying to infulence any market. I'm trying to make a buyer happy and get him a set asap. I am taking the loss. Plain and simple.
I'm done with this thread. I appreciate support from some and don't understand why people have to second guess "why" I bought a set, why I don't do this and that.
Cameron Kiefer >>
OK, I've kept quiet for a while on purpose and now it's time to add my final thoughts.
Cam's deaings are between him and his customers. He owes no one on this board an explanation except those involved in transactions, but has offered some explanation anyway.
I have no doubt he made some quite frankly stupid mistakes and is too embarrassed to go into any greater detail than he already has, but he doesn't need to.
He has always been stand up and it is just plain wrong to speculate or suggest wrong doing beyond anything proven.
If I was him, I would never forget those that declared him a deadbeat crook and those that were objective or supportive because his reputation has value.
I am enlightened by the shear brutality of some in this thread and it is sickening. That said I am all about freedom of expressing opinions and will not think less of those that disagree with me
but if I was Cam, I sure would.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
Anyhow, a few thoughts now...
-I have not dealt with Cameron personally.
-If I'm reading this information on here correctly, it appears that tracking numbers were never even provided to those who made the purchases?
If I am wrong, I am sure someone will correct me. However, if that is true, it strikes me as odd and questionable.
-I am surprised at the level of vitriol on this thread. I was surprised it wasn't poofed 100 posts ago for all the attacks on each other.
-my Mocha flavored coffee that I just brewed tastes MUCH better with french vanilla creamer than hazelnut creamer.
-A LOT is two words, not one.
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
-------------------------
Cam's deaings are between him and his customers. He owes no one on this board an explanation except those involved in transactions, but has offered some explanation anyway.
I have no doubt he made some quite frankly stupid mistakes and is too embarrassed to go into any greater detail than he already has, but he doesn't need to.
He has always been stand up and it is just plain wrong to speculate or suggest wrong doing beyond anything proven.
If I was him, I would never forget those that declared him a deadbeat crook and those that were objective or supportive because his reputation has value.
I am enlightened by the shear brutality of some in this thread and it is sickening. That said I am all about freedom of expressing opinions and will not think less of those that disagree with me
but if I was Cam, I sure would.
...Amen brother, Amen.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
Rock on Bro
<< <i>
<< <i>Several buyers have accepted a refund (then gave me negs) and a couple only wanted sets no matter what. I was one set short so I bought it on ebay after John Maben, Cameo CC and others didn't have raw sets or 69's. Is that a high price? i guess so. I'm not trying to infulence any market. I'm trying to make a buyer happy and get him a set asap. I am taking the loss. Plain and simple.
I'm done with this thread. I appreciate support from some and don't understand why people have to second guess "why" I bought a set, why I don't do this and that.
Cameron Kiefer >>
OK, I've kept quiet for a while on purpose and now it's time to add my final thoughts.
Cam's deaings are between him and his customers. He owes no one on this board an explanation except those involved in transactions, but has offered some explanation anyway.
I have no doubt he made some quite frankly stupid mistakes and is too embarrassed to go into any greater detail than he already has, but he doesn't need to.
He has always been stand up and it is just plain wrong to speculate or suggest wrong doing beyond anything proven.
If I was him, I would never forget those that declared him a deadbeat crook and those that were objective or supportive because his reputation has value.
I am enlightened by the shear brutality of some in this thread and it is sickening. That said I am all about freedom of expressing opinions and will not think less of those that disagree with me
but if I was Cam, I sure would.
John >>
very well said and my feelings exactly.
The most clear cut and straight out verifiable statement in this thread. Hazelnut is foul.
<< <i>"my Mocha flavored coffee that I just brewed tastes MUCH better with french vanilla creamer than hazelnut creamer."
The most clear cut and straight out verifiable statement in this thread. Hazelnut is foul. >>
Too sweet.... real men drink their coffee with no sweetener. Thumbs down on Starbucks, tasted burnt.
Thumbs up on Dunkin.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>That might explain the "fishy" purchase as a BIN at over market. >>
That's your opinion. The seller also believed this set to be worth the $$ hence the BIN in the first place.
I believe these proof sets, given the extremely low mintage and the fact that they're just aren't many for sale on Ebay especially just after sellout, are worth even more than what was BIN'd by Cameron at this time.
The guy needed a RAW proof set, not a 70's set. I also like'm raw!
<< <i>Thumbs up on Dunkin. >>
Dunkin rocks! But amazingly enough so does MickyD's for coffee.
<< <i>
<< <i>Thumbs up on Dunkin. >>
Dunkin rocks! But amazingly enough so does MickyD's for coffee.
Yea, but their donuts have really gone down hill. I have three law enforcement guys that work here and they are essentially the American Idol panel for judging donuts.
Isn't this alot more fun then hanging someone in this thread?
Yes, I know I spelled alot wrong.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
In the mean time, I am supporting him by bidding on his ebay auctions for items that I usually do not collect but will give to my son and other YNs for their collections. Maybe some others who want to help him will do the same.
Hell of an idea! I'll go do that right now!
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
To me, the situation is clear ... Cameron is a young and inexperienced businessman who made some dumb business decisions. Had such decisions been made by someone with more experience who had been doing this for years, they would definitely be deemed shady and underhanded. However, dumb decisions are expected to be made by someone in Cameron's position who lacks the experience that necessarily flows from screwing up. The part of this situation which leaves a bad taste in one's mouth is the manner in which he handled the crisis he created. Had he been forthcoming and openly divulged the facts as we all know they really are, claimed inexperience, admitted his stupid mistake, vowed to learn from it and delivered the goods to those he contracted to do so with even if he lost money on each deal (especially if he lost money on each deal), the mob wouldn't be riding him out of town on the rail upon which he presently finds himself. Unfortunately, the inexperience that led him create this crisis is also leading him to handle the situation poorly now that his questionable actions have been revealed. His reputation in the numismatic community is now significantly tarnished ... and rightly so. One cannot build a reputation upon the accolades of a forum and then claim that said forum has no right to judge one's actions when one acts like a tard. Nonetheless, Cameron may still salvage a piece of his former reputation if he acts accordingly. There is a reason why high profile individuals admit their mistakes and throw themselves upon the mercy of the media when caught doing something particularly nasty ... it is because they have hired high priced spin doctors who know that the mob will be sympathetic when properly coerced. Good luck Cameron and I hope for your sake that post of yours was not truly your last word on the issue ...
Another member of the circle falls from grace
I do believe that the packages are either lost or misplaced and sincerely hope that those buyers which received refunds will also return the coins should they appear in their mail boxes in the near future. It is afterall (or was) the Christmas mailing season and there are (or were) major storms out east.
I also believe that he has not posted tracking information for his own personal reasons, which he has already stated, and that that specific information is really none of the forums business anyway. And just for the record, the forums did not make Cameron, Cameron made Cameron.
For those folks that have posted nasty, malicious innuendo's based totally on suspicions that were not only aimed at Cameron but at every other forum member here, I say shame on you! Those of us that know Cameron on a personal and business level realize that the truth will come out and that apologies should be forth coming.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>If Cameron was trying to perpetuate some kind of grand scam, why would he have refunded anyone? I have no doubt he will be vindicated here. >>
The whole issue was not that he might be stealing someones money but rather that once he realized he sold coins 10-15K below market that he quickly came up with a 'lost in the mail excuse' and refunded money.
<< <i>
<< <i>If Cameron was trying to perpetuate some kind of grand scam, why would he have refunded anyone? I have no doubt he will be vindicated here. >>
The whole issue was not that he might be stealing someones money but rather that once he realized he sold coins 10-15K below market that he quickly came up with a 'lost in the mail excuse' and refunded money. >>
Which is total speculation based upon someones twisted paranoid thoughts and totally out of character for what Cameron is. Those of us that know Cameron, know that this is totally untrue and to even suggest this scenario simply indicates one's own paranoia.
The name is LEE!