Poll: Is this unethical, or good old fashioned aggressive collecting?
gecko109
Posts: 8,231 ✭
An item is listed in an ebay auction. It has 6 bids and 5 days to go and is currently $54. You value the item at around $250, and would be happy to pay that and skip the auction process. So you email the seller and ask if he had a price in mind to delist it and sell it to you. Seller responds with "lets wait a few days and see where its at". You reply, "i'll pay you $250 immediately via paypal if interested in ending it now". Seller replies "DEAL!". Did you do anything unethical here, or were you just a good, aggressive collector?
Edited to add: The deal was finalized THROUGH ebay when the seller delisted the original auction, and then relisted the item with a $250 BIN (just to clarify).
Edited to add: The deal was finalized THROUGH ebay when the seller delisted the original auction, and then relisted the item with a $250 BIN (just to clarify).
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I emailed the seller (while the auction still had several days to go), asked if they had a BIN, I quoted them a price, and they said DEAL.
I was happy (not a huge rip), and the seller was happy (more than they quoted it's worth in the eBay listing).
Ethical to the core, is what I say.
<< <i>Nothing wrong at all. I've done the same thing once, about a year ago, and I did essentially the same thing as you.
I emailed the seller (while the auction still had several days to go), asked if they had a BIN, I quoted them a price, and they said DEAL.
I was happy (not a huge rip), and the seller was happy (more than they quoted it's worth in the eBay listing).
Ethical to the core, is what I say. >>
The flipside however is that what if YOU were planning on sniping it at the last moment only to find out it was delisted with 5 days to go, then relisted seconds later as a BIN and bought immediately? Would this upset you? Would it keep you from dealing with that seller in the future?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>When you signed the Ebay user agreement, did you promise not to do things like this? >>
Andy, thats a whole 'nother poll right there! What percentage of ebay users actually have read the entire "user agreement"?
eBay has a user agreement?
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>What percentage of ebay users actually have read the entire "user agreement"? >>
I've only been on ebay since 1999, so I'm not quite finished yet.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
As my mother would say, "You'll burn in Hell for this!"
But then again, she couldn't tell an AU from an MS!
<< <i>
<< <i>When you signed the Ebay user agreement, did you promise not to do things like this? >>
Andy, thats a whole 'nother poll right there! What percentage of ebay users actually have read the entire "user agreement"? >>
No, it's not. It is central to the issue. Basically, you gave your word to e-bay not to do it, and you did. Unethical.
<< <i>"Unethical" might be the wrong word, but it's a good way to get kicked off eBay...both the buyer and seller. >>
Why is that? The seller did not sell the item to me directly. He delisted the auction (due to error in listing), then RELISTED the item as a BIN for $250. Why would ebay be upset with this? They got their cut.
<< <i>When you signed the Ebay user agreement, did you promise not to do things like this? >>
It is about staying within the parameters. Fair play is ethical, but if the competition can get a leg up on the rest of them, well
Now where do ethics come in ? A man's conscience bothers him so he asks the rule of law and finds the truth. Another man finds the truth and uses it for his own profit or gain. Then a monopolistic venue makes the rules up as it goes , but is not satisfied with it's current profit structure so they squeeze the man selling. So as long as the rules keep changing, what is ethical ?
There are two sides to a coin. Choose your side or ride on the edge, but once you call it and you call it wrong, it will be "Tails Up" and heads down. So do what is right and sleep good at night.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>He delisted the auction (due to error in listing), then RELISTED the item as a BIN for $250. >>
You never mentioned that in the OP. In that case, no problems here, I'd be fine with it.
"You" would be a seller to avoid.
Nope...I'd say this isn't any MORE unethical than business as usual at The 'Bay.
PS...I would have also agreed to take the sale away from eBay entirely and pay using either a certified check or money order...and avoid fees and potential violation issues altogether...Oh...did I just say that out loud?
I am just curious-- if you were willing to pay $250, could you just have put in a bid for $250, and you probably would have won it anyway?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I have read the rules but am not an expert on them, there may be loopholes that allow a person to end an auction early to sell at a stated price, or to relist as a BIN. Fortunately, this did not happen with this unique discovery coin 1806 O.129 Discovery, and the important coin was sold within the contract agreed to when listed. It was fair play to all who indentified the coin as a new discovery.
Those sort of requests can backfire. Two of my three requests came in for the same item. It's easy for a seller to realize that he has a 'hidden gem' when he gets multiple offers for the same item, and a bunch of watchers also.
(The third request I received came for a different item, and there's a decent chance that item will sell in the end for less than the offer, but we're talking small money in either case so I'll take my chances.)
I've also approached sellers with offers like that myself, but only rarely. I usually only do it in cases where I have pity on the seller. If they've totally mis-listed an item and I think I can get it without competition for their starting price, I'll sometimes offer them a higher price to end early. They usually decline, and then I usually do get it at their starting price, or near to it. That sort of thing is great for my conscience, anyway -- they had an offer, they declined it; not my fault any more if I get a rip after they declined a better offer.
jonathan
<< <i>I don't understand all of the Ebay rules (nor do I want to), but personally, I don't think is it "right" to contact the seller and ask that the terms of the auction be changed, or whether he will take $x. There are bigger ethical violations going on in the world (and I am not saying this is unethical, necessarily), but as an outsider, again, it just does not seem like the right thing to do.
I am just curious-- if you were willing to pay $250, could you just have put in a bid for $250, and you probably would have won it anyway? >>
"I am just curious-- if you were willing to pay $250, could you just have put in a bid for $250, and you probably would have won it anyway?"
There lies the rub Mr. Longacre. I honestly dont know for sure. That is why I did what I did. I needed this coin for my collection, and its so rare that it may pop up twice a year on ebay or in my other travels. Since I was willing to pay more than 5x melt on a modern "bullion" coin, I figured why take the chance of getting into a silly bidding war. If the seller took the piece in at melt (im 99.99% sure he did), then he is very happy as am I. How happy are the 2 or 3 other potential buyers who may have paid ALOT more than $250 for the piece? Im not sure....and im not so sure I should even care about them anyway.
<< <i>I am just curious-- if you were willing to pay $250, could you just have put in a bid for $250, and you probably would have won it anyway? >>
In fact, he could have won it at $60 if there were no higher bids. Or he could have lost it because someone else was willing to pay $600. Making the offer means the buyer locks out the competition and the seller locks in the money. It can be good or bad for either.
<< <i>Off-site sales are unethical and in violation of eBay rules. I have seen quite a few rare items that have ended for "error in the listing" or other BS, when they were probably sold illegally offsite. The problem is, this is an accepted practice for many eBay users.
I have read the rules but am not an expert on them, there may be loopholes that allow a person to end an auction early to sell at a stated price, or to relist as a BIN. Fortunately, this did not happen with this unique discovery coin 1806 O.129 Discovery, and the important coin was sold within the contract agreed to when listed. It was fair play to all who indentified the coin as a new discovery. >>
It was not an off-site sale. It was delisted as an auction, then relisted as a BIN and bought through ebay. Does that change your opinion at all?
<< <i>When you signed the Ebay user agreement, did you promise not to do things like this? >>
Interesting point Andy.
So this is in the same league as shill bidding since that is against eBay's policies as well?
Using eBay
While using eBay, you will not:
post content or items in an inappropriate category or areas on our sites and services;
violate any laws, third party rights, or our policies such as the Prohibited and Restricted Items policies;
use our sites or services if you are not able to form legally binding contracts, are under the age of 18, or are temporarily or indefinitely suspended from our sites;
fail to deliver payment for items purchased by you, unless the seller has materially changed the item's description after you bid, a clear typographical error is made, or you cannot authenticate the seller's identity;
fail to deliver items purchased from you, unless the buyer fails to meet the posted terms, or you cannot authenticate the buyer's identity;
manipulate the price of any item or interfere with other user's listings;
circumvent or manipulate our fee structure, the billing process, or fees owed to eBay;
post false, inaccurate, misleading, defamatory, or libelous content (including personal information);
take any action that may undermine the feedback or ratings systems (such as displaying, importing or exporting feedback information off of the sites or using it for purposes unrelated to eBay);
transfer your eBay account (including feedback) and User ID to another party without our consent;
distribute or post spam, chain letters, or pyramid schemes;
distribute viruses or any other technologies that may harm eBay, or the interests or property of eBay users;
copy, modify, or distribute content from the Sites and eBay's copyrights and trademarks; or
harvest or otherwise collect information about users, including email addresses, without their consent. "
Is this UNETHICAL, I don't really believe so but some folks could conceivably see it that way.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>"Unethical" might be the wrong word, but it's a good way to get kicked off eBay...both the buyer and seller. >>
Why is that? The seller did not sell the item to me directly. He delisted the auction (due to error in listing), then RELISTED the item as a BIN for $250. Why would ebay be upset with this? They got their cut. >>
In this case, I still don't see anything wrong with the transaction!
The name is LEE!
Since this was done within eBay rules, there is nothing illegal with it. I do not agree with these rules and believe that once an auction is listed, the item should sell for the terms within the auction and go the duration to give all bidders an equal and fair chance.
This was an auction that ended early for a coin that was the third known of the variety. Baley and I both spotted the coin, and wanted to bid on it. I heard several different stories of what really happened, and will probably never know the truth. There was nothing in the description that was an error, and the auction should not have ended early IMO 1807 O.115 third known
sleazbay sucks--they took a good idea and screw everbody over now beacause of their greed. If I can make a deal with out their gruuby hands in my pocket so be it.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>OK now I'm really curious about which eBay auctions these were. Care o post the original auction and then the BIN auction Gecko? >>
Oddly, the original auction (which is listed in the completed sales page) shows zero bids. Do they remove all the activity once an auction is ended early due to an error in the listing? Here is the BIN link for the completed sale. Mintage on this piece is a very scant "stated" 5,000. Most panda enthusiasts believe that there were far fewer actually made.
http://cgi.ebay.com/995-platinum-panda-coin-1-20-oz-asian-1993_W0QQitemZ160288530788QQihZ006QQcategoryZ39486QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Edited to add: Watch out for grubby finger prints!!!
I draw the line differently than most folks.
A company's policy is not an ethical line. It is not a law. In fact, company policies are always tilted towards the company and rarely written with balanced ethics in mind. Company policies can be written and changed arbitrarily.
eBay's policy guidelines about not conducting transactions to circumvent auctions is obviously designed to protect their revenue. Their revenue consists of listing fees, final value fees as well as PayPal fees. Two of those three fees were paid in this case.
The seller could have used a "best offer" feature. I find it hard to blame any seller for not comprehending all of the options available on eBay and would assume that anyone without a "best offer" feature might actually take an offer anyway.
If you don't ask, you don't get. If you snooze, you lose.
I see a very very minor issue here. I would not call it unethical. It is not large enough of an issue in my opinion.
Unethical. Search for the word "olympic" in the Precious Metals forum and see what you see as far as chinese olympic bars being sold on eBay.
<< <i>
<< <i>OK now I'm really curious about which eBay auctions these were. Care o post the original auction and then the BIN auction Gecko? >>
Oddly, the original auction (which is listed in the completed sales page) shows zero bids. Do they remove all the activity once an auction is ended early due to an error in the listing? Here is the BIN link for the completed sale. Mintage on this piece is a very scant "stated" 5,000. Most panda enthusiasts believe that there were far fewer actually made.
http://cgi.ebay.com/995-platinum-panda-coin-1-20-oz-asian-1993_W0QQitemZ160288530788QQihZ006QQcategoryZ39486QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >>
Of course it would show 0 bids since before he could end it he had to cancel all the bids.
The name is LEE!
I think the OP's situation is entirely within the rules of eBay, and since they got their fees on the full $250 sale I have no problem with it. In my case, you could argue that ebay got screwed out of the fees on the extra $20 I offered above my bid, but at that point it was up to the seller how to handle it; had he cancelled the auction and relisted it with a $100 BIN as I'd requested, I would have gladly clicked it.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't understand all of the Ebay rules (nor do I want to), but personally, I don't think is it "right" to contact the seller and ask that the terms of the auction be changed, or whether he will take $x. There are bigger ethical violations going on in the world (and I am not saying this is unethical, necessarily), but as an outsider, again, it just does not seem like the right thing to do.
I am just curious-- if you were willing to pay $250, could you just have put in a bid for $250, and you probably would have won it anyway? >>
"I am just curious-- if you were willing to pay $250, could you just have put in a bid for $250, and you probably would have won it anyway?"
There lies the rub Mr. Longacre. I honestly dont know for sure. That is why I did what I did. I needed this coin for my collection, and its so rare that it may pop up twice a year on ebay or in my other travels. Since I was willing to pay more than 5x melt on a modern "bullion" coin, I figured why take the chance of getting into a silly bidding war. If the seller took the piece in at melt (im 99.99% sure he did), then he is very happy as am I. How happy are the 2 or 3 other potential buyers who may have paid ALOT more than $250 for the piece? Im not sure....and im not so sure I should even care about them anyway. >>
Reminds me of a coin that I was after recently that had a $300 BIN on it. I thought that it would go for less so I entered a low bid and killed the BIN option. As closing neared it was over $250. I put in a snipe at $350 and was the underbidder. Guess I screwed up that one. --Jerry
Idk if it violates eBay rules.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
The bidders who are left out of the process have commited their cash to bid on the coin.If they would have won in the deal and Didn't purchase the coin... they woud be chastised for it.
You on the other hand have convinced the seller to relist the original sales agreement for the coin.
Have the other bidders been given the opportunity to reply to the ..Buy it Now !!!..for $250....????..
<< <i>There are definitely two sides to this issue...
The bidders who are left out of the process have commited their cash to bid on the coin.If they would have won in the deal and Didn't purchase the coin... they woud be chastised for it.
You on the other hand have convinced the seller to relist the original sales agreement for the coin.
Have the other bidders been given the opportunity to reply to the ..Buy it Now !!!..for $250....????..
Other bidders were given the opportunity....for about 30 seconds or so! I can honestly see both sides of this argument, and thats why I created this thread. Should I feel bad about the other potential buyers who were in effect "frozen out" of this deal? I dont know yet exactly how I feel. Maybe the fact that I brought this whole situation to light here is evidence that I do feel some slight remorse about that.
<< <i>If Heritage changed their rules to allow a consignor to accept an offer before the floor session, most would be irate with this, as it would be unfair to the floor bidders. The concept of an auction to to give an equal and fair opportunity for bidders to purchase the item, and to give the sellers the highest price through the bidding process. >>
Nysoto makes a great point above. For me, what the OP describes is one of many shenanigans why I've rarely done ebay. I don't have time to play these games. Never sold on ebay, never will, very few feedbacks and been a member for years.
If Ebay and Paypal recieved their FEES then they will turn the other cheek...
No harm, No foul.... If there is a difference from doing this, and ending early to sell to the highest bidder I can't see it..
<< <i>The seller is the unethical one here. He is morally responsible to the high bidder in this auction. If there is a bidder at 37 dollars or 55 dollars, or whatever, they should get this item at their price if no one else bids. To cancel your high bidders bids, basically, is reprehensible. >>
Oh Baloney!
The guy is trying to sell a coin. eBay only bids up enough to for a winning bid and not what the actual bid might be. A $250 bid would have shown up as $56.
The seller got an offer and relisted it for an absolute $250 BIN which the OP took. Nothing wrong here at all. If the other bidders would have thought of it they too would have done it!
Exactly where does "moral responsibility" come in to play when a seller is trying to maximize the selling price of an item ?
The name is LEE!
What's so unethical about that ?
... tongue in cheek, boss, tongue in cheek.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5