You really do need to learn how to grade.
291fifth
Posts: 24,690 ✭✭✭✭✭
Yesterday I was at my local B&M and had the chance to view a group of 30+ high grade classic type coins they had recently purchased. These coins were not in my price range so I was able to view them with a dispassionate eye.
All the coins were slabbed by either PCGS or NGC and some had CAC stickers.
My thoughts:
In my opinion none of the coins were undergraded, most of them were properly graded, and a few were overgraded.
That said, there were only about 3-4 pieces I would have actually considered buying because they met my grading standards.
This board (I've been here for five years this month) has caused me to tighten my standards and look much more closely at the coins I consider for purchase. In this group of coins was an 1883 No Cents Liberty nickel in an NGC MS67 holder (no sticker.) I looked at this coin and wondered if it could have been the same coin I owned about ten years ago. I thought it was great ten years ago but wouldn't have even considered it today. Why? Incompletely struck corn. Today, for me to give any Liberty nickel a 67 it would have to have complete corn.
Another coin was a blazing white 1930-S Quarter in a PCGS holder graded MS65FH. The coin is properly graded by current standards but not by my standards. The head was mostly full but part of the shield was flat. I don't want to see flat shields on coins with FH designations. Ten years ago I would have been mesmerized by the "flash" of this coin, but not today. Always look closely at any coin that jumps out at you. There may be an unpleasant surprise waiting once you get beyond the "flash."
Use this board to challenge yourself to learn more about grading. Take off the rose colored glasses and beware of "happy talk."
All the coins were slabbed by either PCGS or NGC and some had CAC stickers.
My thoughts:
In my opinion none of the coins were undergraded, most of them were properly graded, and a few were overgraded.
That said, there were only about 3-4 pieces I would have actually considered buying because they met my grading standards.
This board (I've been here for five years this month) has caused me to tighten my standards and look much more closely at the coins I consider for purchase. In this group of coins was an 1883 No Cents Liberty nickel in an NGC MS67 holder (no sticker.) I looked at this coin and wondered if it could have been the same coin I owned about ten years ago. I thought it was great ten years ago but wouldn't have even considered it today. Why? Incompletely struck corn. Today, for me to give any Liberty nickel a 67 it would have to have complete corn.
Another coin was a blazing white 1930-S Quarter in a PCGS holder graded MS65FH. The coin is properly graded by current standards but not by my standards. The head was mostly full but part of the shield was flat. I don't want to see flat shields on coins with FH designations. Ten years ago I would have been mesmerized by the "flash" of this coin, but not today. Always look closely at any coin that jumps out at you. There may be an unpleasant surprise waiting once you get beyond the "flash."
Use this board to challenge yourself to learn more about grading. Take off the rose colored glasses and beware of "happy talk."
All glory is fleeting.
0
Comments
K S
<< <i>Use this board to challenge yourself to learn more about grading. Take off the rose colored glasses and beware of "happy talk." >>
Here we go again...
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Even though we feel that we can grade properly it does matter that we take into account a type of grade standard from time to time.Perhaps this can account for the level of grade difference within the same grade.....
<< <i>Use this board to challenge yourself to learn more about grading. Take off the rose colored glasses and beware of "happy talk." >>
Be sure to eat a healthy breakfast, it's the most important meal of the day.
It's a business. It's a hobby. It's a passion. To many, it's just plain stupid.
I like happy talk. It's probably why I have so many girlfriends here.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Just a reality check: Does anybody think that learning how to grade is not important? >>
Gee, Andy... I thought that's what TPGs were for... just find the coin in the "right" holder, read the label and lay down our money...then add the newp to our Registry Set... isn't that all we need to do??? I mean...we're paying the professionals to grade the coin...and now we can add another sticker to affirm the grade... why on earth do we need to learn how to grade???
I can agree with the OP in all areas. Since being on the boards for almost 2 years now, I've been ALOT more picky in coins I buy, especially from my B&M dealer (which HATES it by the way). Used to, anything that struck my fancy got bought and I took his word for it on the grade/condition/popularity/etc. Now, I examine a coin and critique it under my own standards, then make my decision on whether to purchase it or not. Which saves me a big headache when selling time comes around. I look past the initial "WOW Factor" nowadays and study the technical aspects.
good post 291fifth.
-wes
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
Learning to grade is important, as is enjoying the hobby for what it is. I, and everyone else (even the best of the very best), have made mistakes along the way. And, in my humble opinion, it was those mistakes caught days; months; even years later that taught best.
However, what I try not to ever forget, from my worst decisions to my most marginally infinitesimal bad decisions, is the enjoyment the coin and hobby have brought me regardless of any regrets I may have at the time. To me, it is completely natural to become a jaded collector over time - but looking back (and not having not made any monumentally bad decisions) I for one am perfectly happy with the strolling pace I have taken in learning to grade and, equally important, learning the market trends. Having not gone into it with some completely retentive attitude from the get go has, for me, given me much more pleasure from the hobby over time.
????????????
Shouldn't we all play by the same rules?
We all want a MS69 for the MS60 price.
Maybe you should carry around your own brand of CAC sticker and apply them to the holders for the rest of us.
Quote: "These coins were not in my price range so I was able to view them with a dispassionate eye."
You grade based on price range and if you can afford it or not?
Were the coins over or under your price range ? If over, maybe it's just a case of "I dont want that junk anyway". Gus Tiso once told me to go collect pennies until i learn something.
what exactly is so horrible about lots of people having different opinions on things? why does this scare so many people to the point that they want a pla$tic co. to tell them what to think???
K S
Learn how to grade.
Learn the market for the coins, the typical wholesale and retail prices, and what coins are commonly available, and what coins are truly tough to find.
Develop relationships with dealers and collectors in order to get better access and better pricing.
Collect what you like.
Enjoy the hobby.
>>
Some have such tight grading standards that 80% to 99% of the coins they see in holders seem to be overgraded. Well, each person is free to have their own standards, so I won't argue. As for the flashy quarter, perhaps if the shield were full, it might have gone 66 or 67. Flash counts for a lot, and many novices don't account for the luster when grading (as opposed to counting hits). "Properly graded" coming from a person who is super tight on grading likely means good chance at upgrade, but each person is free to have their own standards. If they also are tight on price, it might mean buying less than 1% of coins offered. Again, nothing wrong with that, but it does limit a person.
<< <i>i've never understood why anybody would expect or want EVERYONE to grade coins the same.
what exactly is so horrible about lots of people having different opinions on things? why does this scare so many people to the point that they want a pla$tic co. to tell them what to think???
K S >>
Because in the old days, the dealers would add three points when selling and deduct three points when buying back the same coin. Before the grading companies, many sellers would be like the current sleazy raw coin dealers on Ebay and in the magazines. Most saw no point in trying to be honest because 80% of the other sellers are doing the same. I don't understand folks that think that was a better world. By having a third-party opinion, at least the games are more along the lines, "that coin is low end," "the shield isn't full, it doesn't deserve full price," instead of "that coin looks like a cleaned AU, but I'll offer you AU money [for that full blast super nice MS65] because I am your friend."
<< <i>
<< <i>i've never understood why anybody would expect or want EVERYONE to grade coins the same.
what exactly is so horrible about lots of people having different opinions on things? why does this scare so many people to the point that they want a pla$tic co. to tell them what to think???
K S >>
Because in the old days, the dealers would add three points when selling and deduct three points when buying back the same coin. Before the grading companies, many sellers would be like the current sleazy raw coin dealers on Ebay and in the magazines. Most saw no point in trying to be honest because 80% of the other sellers are doing the same. I don't understand folks that think that was a better world. By having a third-party opinion, at least the games are more along the lines, "that coin is low end," "the shield isn't full, it doesn't deserve full price," instead of "that coin looks like a cleaned AU, but I'll offer you AU money [for that full blast super nice MS65] because I am your friend." >>
why was it better before tpgs? the proof is in the pudding. coins cost a he11uva lot more now, thanks to pla$tic.
i would rather be able to pay 1/10 for coins & get ripped off 1/3 of the time due to overgraded crap then to pay the stupidly high prices due to pla$tic.
put it a different way, now it's almost like EVERY coin in pla$tic is a ripoff because EVERY coin in pla$tic is outrageously expensive.
K S
<< <i>i've never understood why anybody would expect or want EVERYONE to grade coins the same.
what exactly is so horrible about lots of people having different opinions on things? why does this scare so many people to the point that they want a pla$tic co. to tell them what to think???
K S >>
Cuz yer only gonna pay one price fer da coin DUH...........
<< <i>Great post! for a newbe like me. title caught my eye since my goal for the next ten years + or - is to learn how to grade. going to start with the 2 books ana & pcgs. I know the ana has coarses for grading but to far to travel i live in ct. are there any other options? 2. are there books or dvd's for grading on particular series like early commemoratives which is going to be my first series? I think i read somthing about mapping of coins for grading does anybody have info on this? thank you all for the info & knowledge I have gotten here! signed skibum >>
Yes, if you can make to any of the ANA sponsered shows on that side of the country they tend to have seminars available on grading.
Re the 83 N/C in 7; most Liberty Nickels I've seen in 7 have been this coin. The date usually comes well-struck. Most 7s I've seen are overgraded. They're typically 6s with outstanding eye appeal.
Re the 30S Quarter, incomplete detail in the rivulets and shield is typical for branch mint coins, even if the coin is graded MS 67. In fact, the only dates where I've seen significant numbers of fully struck coins are the 17 P Type I, and the 17-24 P Type IIs.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
why was it better before tpgs? the proof is in the pudding. coins cost a he11uva lot more now, thanks to pla$tic.
i would rather be able to pay 1/10 for coins & get ripped off 1/3 of the time due to overgraded crap then to pay the stupidly high prices due to pla$tic.
put it a different way, now it's almost like EVERY coin in pla$tic is a ripoff because EVERY coin in pla$tic is outrageously expensive.
K S >>
Coins cost more now because the dollar is worth far less then it's purchasing power used to have, and easier access to knowledge of what truely is scarce. TPG plastic has had only a minor influence.
<< <i> >>
why was it better before tpgs? the proof is in the pudding. coins cost a he11uva lot more now, thanks to pla$tic.
i would rather be able to pay 1/10 for coins & get ripped off 1/3 of the time due to overgraded crap then to pay the stupidly high prices due to pla$tic.
put it a different way, now it's almost like EVERY coin in pla$tic is a ripoff because EVERY coin in pla$tic is outrageously expensive.
K S >>
Coins cost more now because the dollar is worth far less then it's purchasing power used to have, and easier access to knowledge of what truely is scarce. TPG plastic has had only a minor influence. >>
Explain by your thesis the temporal locations of the large price increases in error coinage, large size paper money, and so-called dollars. Good luck. Under the "it's the pla$stic which allows idiots with money to buy stuff they know nothing about" it's quite easy to explain: their prices showed the largest gains when they were started to be slabbed often.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>That said, there were only about 3-4 pieces I would have actually considered buying because they met my grading standards. >>
What is it that met your grading standards exactly? The coins, or the oversized novelty holders surrounding them? If the second, might it have been better to say that the coins might not have met your pricing standards? Choice coins can be overgraded as often as ugly or average coins, so are we not really talking about pricing here?
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i> >>
why was it better before tpgs? the proof is in the pudding. coins cost a he11uva lot more now, thanks to pla$tic.
i would rather be able to pay 1/10 for coins & get ripped off 1/3 of the time due to overgraded crap then to pay the stupidly high prices due to pla$tic.
put it a different way, now it's almost like EVERY coin in pla$tic is a ripoff because EVERY coin in pla$tic is outrageously expensive.
K S >>
Coins cost more now because the dollar is worth far less then it's purchasing power used to have, and easier access to knowledge of what truely is scarce. TPG plastic has had only a minor influence. >>
Agree. Blaming slabs for coins being expensive is just plain silly.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Just a reality check: Does anybody think that learning how to grade is not important? >>
Important how? TPG's (at least one anyway) think 80% of dealers don't know how to grade, there are only a handful of folks here that I would trust enough to rely on their grading skills, assuming that was a determinant to me on whether to buy the coin or not. What if I just want a nice coin, have a lot of experience in detecting problems and don't care if its au58 or ms63. I'll offer a fair price in my opinion and if the seller agrees I buy the coin.
I say all this because I am not a good grader anyway what my definition of a good grader is. What wins the PCGS grading contest for nondealers 60%. Me thinks we puff up our grading skills. If I was going to sink a bunch of dough into this hobby I'd rely on someone I trust and that wouldn't be me.
<< <i>
<< <i>That said, there were only about 3-4 pieces I would have actually considered buying because they met my grading standards. >>
What is it that met your grading standards exactly? The coins, or the oversized novelty holders surrounding them? If the second, might it have been better to say that the coins might not have met your pricing standards? Choice coins can be overgraded as often as ugly or average coins, so are we not really talking about pricing here? >>
Price meant nothing as I was not in the market for any of these coins. This was a pure grading exercise.
Other coins in the exercise that I would have rejected included a bright white liberty seated quarter in NGC MS65 with hairlines on the reverse. In my book, a coin with hairlines does not deserve a 65 regardless of any other qualities. There was also an NGC proof seated dime, bright white, which I believe was graded 67. This coin had die polish lines on the reverse. By my own standard I don't like die polish lines and I especially don't like them on a coin with that high a grade. Finally, there was a bright white (almost certainly dipped) NGC 1908-O Barber half in 65. The coin did nothing for me. I wouldn't have even considered buying it.
The coin market has no set grading standard. Each TPG sets its own standard and each collector needs to set their own standard as well.
<< <i>so, is it more important to learn how to grade, or to learn how to be cynical?
K S >>
I know for a fact you have one of those skills down pat.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
<< <i>Take off the rose colored glasses and beware of "happy talk." >>
But how you gonna make your dream come true?
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>I think I hate all of my coins now. >>
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
Learning to grade is important, as is enjoying the hobby for what it is. I, and everyone else (even the best of the very best), have made mistakes along the way. And, in my humble opinion, it was those mistakes caught days; months; even years later that taught best.
However, what I try not to ever forget, from my worst decisions to my most marginally infinitesimal bad decisions, is the enjoyment the coin and hobby have brought me regardless of any regrets I may have at the time. To me, it is completely natural to become a jaded collector over time - but looking back (and not having not made any monumentally bad decisions) I for one am perfectly happy with the strolling pace I have taken in learning to grade and, equally important, learning the market trends. Having not gone into it with some completely retentive attitude from the get go has, for me, given me much more pleasure from the hobby over time.
hey PHEH ... thanks for this one ... a gem indeed IMO
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
<< <i>i've never understood why anybody would expect or want EVERYONE to grade coins the same.
what exactly is so horrible about lots of people having different opinions on things? why does this scare so many people to the point that they want a pla$tic co. to tell them what to think???
K S >>
Absolutely spot on!! I like having differences of opinion in grading... it's lead me to some quite nice pieces for good prices. Alot of these I've kept in my collection and others I've flipped for a tidy profit. Viva la difference!!
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
<< <i>i've never understood why anybody would expect or want EVERYONE to grade coins the same.
what exactly is so horrible about lots of people having different opinions on things? why does this scare so many people to the point that they want a pla$tic co. to tell them what to think???
K S >>
Well first off not everyone can grade coins or grade them competently so their opinion don't mean chit. They are probably competent to say if the coin is nice or not be it a 64 or a 67, but there is no such grade as nice. A coin can have only ONE grade so anyone whose opinion differs from that would be wrong.
Bajjerfan - You must be new here, right?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Well first off not everyone can grade coins or grade them competently so their opinion don't mean chit. They are probably competent to say if the coin is nice or not be it a 64 or a 67, but there is no such grade as nice. A coin can have only ONE grade so anyone whose opinion differs from that would be wrong. >>
Obviously this is an obscene generalization, but...
MS/PR-67 Virtually as struck with minor imperfections, very well struck
MS/PR-68 Virtually as struck with slight imperfections, slightest weakness of strike allowed
MS/PR-69 Virtually as struck with minuscule imperfections, near full strike necessary
MS/PR-70 As struck, with full strike
Yup, you're right, no room for subjectivity there....
<< <i>A coin can have only ONE grade so anyone whose opinion differs from that would be wrong.
Bajjerfan - You must be new here, right? >>
Now that is funny. Grading is a continuum, not a ladder with discrete steps. There are plenty of tweener coins where 100 top expert graders might split 80/20, 70/30 or even 50/50. Some coins might go 95/5 or 98/2. Not many MS65 coins are going to be 100/0 where everyone agrees.
On most classic coins three or four graders look at it. What percentage of these does a person think there is a straight line total agreement? I would guess that maybe 70% of coins get a unanimous grade, and that is with 3 or 4 graders, not the hypothetical panel of 100 graders.