<< <i>I have noticed many eBay sellers have an "all sales final" rule for certified coins, but I don't understand why. If anything, sellers should have no problem taking back certified coins. Unlike raw coins, certified coins are tamper-proof, so there is much less risk of fraud/switching. Also, certified coins have better liquidity, meaning they should be easier to re-sell in case of a return.
I thought the whole point was to buy the coin, not the holder. I think these sellers' "no return" policy is unreasonable, and basically it's saying it's OK to dump an overgraded certified coin on you, and there's nothing you can do about it. Am I wrong? >>
rbf
You are most certainly not wrong. I accept returns on certified coins and expect the same when I purchase. I reward "no return" sellers by not bidding.
I can deal with a no-returns policy. When I see that, I either skip the Coin entirely or bid as if the coin is a POS with problems.
What really gets me is a dealer that uses tricky lighting to sell Coins with problems. You get the Coin and discover that a glaring blemish was hidden with shadows. Reminds me of some shady Fruit Stand Merchants that sell baskets of Fruit with bruised and/or rotten fruit on the bottom.
And what's really disgusting is that I've experienced the shadows-trick with coins purchased from so-called "top-tier" Dealers. Makes you wonder how great the Coin Dealer really is.
<< <i>That said, a seller is free to set his own terms of sale. If you don't like the terms, negotiate alternative terms or find another seller. >>
I agree. And "find another seller" is exactly what I do.
I wonder if some people realize how much they may be leaving on the table with a "no return" policy that chases bidders away. But hey, it's certainly their right...
I usually hit the back button when I see 'no returns', but sometimes, if you play it right, the lower bidding action works to your advantage--IF you are willing to take the risk.
I just did so on a no returns on a SEGS coin on an ebaY auction (key date in the series I collect, in midgrade) and the final hammer was at least 25-30% under what they usually go for, with the coin being as good or better in hand than the picture, and properly graded. I am sure the no returns kept many people away, and that was nice.
Don
Do your best to avoid circular arguments, as it will help you reason better, because better reasoning is often a result of avoiding circular arguments.
Because you do not agree it is poor customer service?
I would rather sell for 10 percent less than deal with returns, still a lot better than i can get elsewhere.
A coin many like will bring good money reguardless of the seller policy.
I do not like auctions that do not accept paypal, i generally pass on them. In fact i hate paypal but when i buy i look for PP auctions.
If you want to dictate my policies, go elsewhere.
Those that can not make up there mind on a certified coin on ebay with a no return policy should never buy a coin sight unseen. A lot of concerns can be handled with a email to the seller. ( more pics, refund possible etc.) I am amazed at some of the emails i recieve from buyers. I should have saved them and started a new thread.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
from what i am reading here people have no problem accepting a return policy which drives up prices because buyers know they can dump it back.
me? i prefer no return policy true auctions when buying. this gets rid of the mama boys and makes it a no holds barred auction. i feel these are the ones that sell for normal non-crazy money.
but hey, everyone here seems to like paying more for the privilege to change their minds and seem to think an ebay auction is like going to walmart and buying a trinkett.
warped sense of perspective in my mind and stupid. it is an auction. auctions do not have returns. if the pics are not good enough for you do not bid.
edited to add: as a seller i do offer unconditional returns for any reason. if people want to pay more for that so be it! i happily will accept bids from mama boys running up the price due to the return policy.
<< <i>Why should a refund be offered on certified coins? As long as it is graded what the seller said it was no one should have a complaint. >>
True, if they are buying the plastic before the coin. >>
It is all a fallacy. We were led to believe back in the early days when TPGs were created that all coins slabbed same grade were of equal quality. Thus, no need for a return privilege.
On a related topic, that is one of the reasons I believe the Bluesheet still exists.
It is all a fallacy. We were led to believe back in the early days when TPGs were created that all coins slabbed same grade were of equal quality. Thus, no need for a return privilege.
On a related topic, that is one of the reasons I believe the Bluesheet still exists.
Mike - I don't get it. Why do you think the Bluesheet still exists?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> It is all a fallacy. We were led to believe back in the early days when TPGs were created that all coins slabbed same grade were of equal quality. Thus, no need for a return privilege.
On a related topic, that is one of the reasons I believe the Bluesheet still exists.
Mike - I don't get it. Why do you think the Bluesheet still exists? >>
The reason I believe the Bluesheet still exists is because people still have "no return" slabbed coins. If I bid on a "no return" slabbed coin, I am more likely to use a pricing system that accounts for this situation (e.g. the Bluesheet).
Auction sales are liquidations, which is why you see "as is - all sales final" on almost all auctions. The buyer forgoes a return privilege in exchange for a cheaper price...the seller forgoes selling for a higher price in exchange for "making it go away forever."
Some whining buyers do not understand the auction format, and still want the benefits of a cheaper price while demanding "approval" or return privileges.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>I wouldn't even attempt to buy something certified knowing there was a "no return" policy. That's just bad business. >>
That was the entire idea behind slabs, so that coins could trade based on the grade on the slab, sight unseen, no returns, with any problems handled under the grading service's warranty.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>ANA dealers may refuse returns on certified coins, as they are fungible. >>
First, the idea that certified coins are fungible is comical. Second, I see no distinction in the ANA Dealer Code of Ethics between certified and raw coins.
<< <i>ANA dealers may refuse returns on certified coins, as they are fungible. >>
First, the idea that certified coins are fungible is comical. Second, I see no distinction in the ANA Dealer Code of Ethics between certified and raw coins. >>
Well, that was the original idea in the first place. Something like grading Utopia.
<< <i>I have noticed many eBay sellers have an "all sales final" rule for certified coins, but I don't understand why. If anything, sellers should have no problem taking back certified coins. Unlike raw coins, certified coins are tamper-proof, so there is much less risk of fraud/switching. Also, certified coins have better liquidity, meaning they should be easier to re-sell in case of a return.
I thought the whole point was to buy the coin, not the holder. I think these sellers' "no return" policy is unreasonable, and basically it's saying it's OK to dump an overgraded certified coin on you, and there's nothing you can do about it. Am I wrong? >>
Sorta like the great and wonderful Heritage signature auctions wiyh their $$hIty pictures.
an auction by nature is an AS IS environment, be it a public auction or ebay or what have you, it is as much an opportunity to make a few dollars as it is to waste a few dollars, an auction is NOT an approval sale. a sale on approval is a sale on approval those that need thier hand held may want to consider buying exclusively from major dealers. as most of them offer a return privilage. i dont believe for a second that a buyer that wants to return a coin because it wont upgrade will be forthright and admit to that being the reason why he returned it. instead of being thankful that some sellers DO offer a return policy, it seems to me that the majority of those here just expect everyone to. how many people here have ever returned a coin that they ripped because of a schitty pic ? doesnt it go both ways ? or is it only important for the buyer to buy a coin for 10% of market value ? is that cheap enough ? i list my auctions one way, how ever i feel like listing them on that day. i pay all the fees, i make the rules, if you dont agree with the guidelines, feel free not to bid on my items, better yet, email me and tell me how to run my auctions, still lots of room on the bidder block list
<< <i>an auction by nature is an AS IS environment, be it a public auction or ebay or what have you, it is as much an opportunity to make a few dollars as it is to waste a few dollars, an auction is NOT an approval sale. >>
Had a guy want his money back on a rather expensive (~$1000) certified coin because "I wanted to take it to Long Beach to flip it, but it arrived the day after I left, so now it is of no use to me..."
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
It doesn't really matter why, as others have pointed out, if you use PayPal as a buyer.
There is a return privilege, whether the seller wants one or not.
As a seller, you can put whatever terms you want into a auction listing. If they conflict with eBay or PayPal policy, they are meaningless and bogus...
I also agree with the posters who stated they ignore sellers without a return privilege. From the consumer's point of view, they do not deserve your patronage!
John
John C. Knudsen, LM ANA 2342, LM CSNS 337 SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
<< <i>ANA members are required to accept returns, if he's an ANA member you might want to mention that.. >>
ANA dealers may refuse returns on certified coins, as they are fungible. >>
Fungible...what a great word!
ANA members are required to accept returns (you do not have to self-identify as a "dealer") on all numismatic items except bullion. This includes certified coins - which incidentally are not necessarily fungible (just ask those who have tried to "funge" third tier slabbed coins).
While that is nice and comforting...the ANA has no real "power" to enforce a return policy. The only recourse they have is to void the seller's membership after going through the long mediation process (which is free for ANA members, but not for non-members). In the end after the extensive paperwork and committee discussions, you can expect either that the seller either accepts your return or he or she is removed as a member. There is no public humiliation, no banning of selling coins, no flaming bags of dog poo on somebody's door...just the resolution. It is not a trivial process and it can't be done with simple email or call to the ANA complaining about a seller.
Lane
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>I have noticed many eBay sellers have an "all sales final" rule for certified coins, but I don't understand why. If anything, sellers should have no problem taking back certified coins. Unlike raw coins, certified coins are tamper-proof, so there is much less risk of fraud/switching. Also, certified coins have better liquidity, meaning they should be easier to re-sell in case of a return.
I thought the whole point was to buy the coin, not the holder. I think these sellers' "no return" policy is unreasonable, and basically it's saying it's OK to dump an overgraded certified coin on you, and there's nothing you can do about it. Am I wrong? >>
no your right
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
ANA members are required to accept returns (you do not have to self-identify as a "dealer") on all numismatic items except bullion. This includes certified coins - which incidentally are not necessarily fungible (just ask those who have tried to "funge" third tier slabbed coins). >>
You are incorrect.
"I shall have the right to enforce my written terms of sale furnished to a customer or the written provisions of my contract with a customer, even if such terms and/or provisions restrict or prohibit the return of numismatic material, contrary to the return privilege provisions set forth herein."
<< <i>I have noticed many eBay sellers have an "all sales final" rule for certified coins, but I don't understand why. If anything, sellers should have no problem taking back certified coins. Unlike raw coins, certified coins are tamper-proof, so there is much less risk of fraud/switching. Also, certified coins have better liquidity, meaning they should be easier to re-sell in case of a return.
I thought the whole point was to buy the coin, not the holder. I think these sellers' "no return" policy is unreasonable, and basically it's saying it's OK to dump an overgraded certified coin on you, and there's nothing you can do about it. Am I wrong? >>
no your right >>
Its a disclaimer because they did not grade or slab the coin just like a car dealer asks you to sign a waiver saying they are not liable for defects cuz they didn't make the car.
ANA members are required to accept returns (you do not have to self-identify as a "dealer") on all numismatic items except bullion. This includes certified coins - which incidentally are not necessarily fungible (just ask those who have tried to "funge" third tier slabbed coins). >>
You are incorrect.
"I shall have the right to enforce my written terms of sale furnished to a customer or the written provisions of my contract with a customer, even if such terms and/or provisions restrict or prohibit the return of numismatic material, contrary to the return privilege provisions set forth herein."
Comments
<< <i>I have noticed many eBay sellers have an "all sales final" rule for certified coins, but I don't understand why. If anything, sellers should have no problem taking back certified coins. Unlike raw coins, certified coins are tamper-proof, so there is much less risk of fraud/switching. Also, certified coins have better liquidity, meaning they should be easier to re-sell in case of a return.
I thought the whole point was to buy the coin, not the holder. I think these sellers' "no return" policy is unreasonable, and basically it's saying it's OK to dump an overgraded certified coin on you, and there's nothing you can do about it. Am I wrong? >>
rbf
You are most certainly not wrong. I accept returns on certified coins and expect the same when I purchase. I reward "no return" sellers by not bidding.
Mark
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
What really gets me is a dealer that uses tricky lighting to sell Coins with problems. You get the Coin and discover that a glaring blemish was hidden with shadows. Reminds me of some shady Fruit Stand Merchants that sell baskets of Fruit with bruised and/or rotten fruit on the bottom.
And what's really disgusting is that I've experienced the shadows-trick with coins purchased from so-called "top-tier" Dealers. Makes you wonder how great the Coin Dealer really is.
<< <i>
<< <i>That said, a seller is free to set his own terms of sale. If you don't like the terms, negotiate alternative terms or find another seller. >>
I agree. And "find another seller" is exactly what I do.
I wonder if some people realize how much they may be leaving on the table with a "no return" policy that chases bidders away. But hey, it's certainly their right...
I usually hit the back button when I see 'no returns', but sometimes, if you play it right, the lower bidding action works to your advantage--IF you are willing to take the risk.
I just did so on a no returns on a SEGS coin on an ebaY auction (key date in the series I collect, in midgrade) and the final hammer was at least 25-30% under what they usually go for, with the coin being as good or better in hand than the picture, and properly graded. I am sure the no returns kept many people away, and that was nice.
Don
I would rather sell for 10 percent less than deal with returns, still a lot better than i can get elsewhere.
A coin many like will bring good money reguardless of the seller policy.
I do not like auctions that do not accept paypal, i generally pass on them. In fact i hate paypal but when i buy i look for PP auctions.
If you want to dictate my policies, go elsewhere.
Those that can not make up there mind on a certified coin on ebay with a no return policy should never buy a coin sight unseen. A lot of concerns can be handled with a email to the seller. ( more pics, refund possible etc.) I am amazed at some of the emails i recieve from buyers. I should have saved them and started a new thread.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
a return policy which drives up prices because buyers know they
can dump it back.
me? i prefer no return policy true auctions when buying. this gets
rid of the mama boys and makes it a no holds barred auction. i feel
these are the ones that sell for normal non-crazy money.
but hey, everyone here seems to like paying more for the privilege
to change their minds and seem to think an ebay auction is like going
to walmart and buying a trinkett.
warped sense of perspective in my mind and stupid. it is an auction.
auctions do not have returns. if the pics are not good enough for you
do not bid.
edited to add: as a seller i do offer unconditional returns for any reason. if people want to pay more for that so be it! i happily will
accept bids from mama boys running up the price due to the return
policy.
Life is merely a series of decisions.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why should a refund be offered on certified coins? As long as it is graded what the seller said it was no one should have a complaint. >>
True, if they are buying the plastic before the coin. >>
It is all a fallacy. We were led to believe back in the early days when TPGs were created that all coins slabbed same grade were of equal quality. Thus, no need for a return privilege.
On a related topic, that is one of the reasons I believe the Bluesheet still exists.
It is all a fallacy. We were led to believe back in the early days when TPGs were created that all coins slabbed same grade were of equal quality. Thus, no need for a return privilege.
On a related topic, that is one of the reasons I believe the Bluesheet still exists.
Mike - I don't get it. Why do you think the Bluesheet still exists?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
It is all a fallacy. We were led to believe back in the early days when TPGs were created that all coins slabbed same grade were of equal quality. Thus, no need for a return privilege.
On a related topic, that is one of the reasons I believe the Bluesheet still exists.
Mike - I don't get it. Why do you think the Bluesheet still exists? >>
The reason I believe the Bluesheet still exists is because people still have "no return" slabbed coins. If I bid on a "no return" slabbed coin, I am more likely to use a pricing system that accounts for this situation (e.g. the Bluesheet).
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Some whining buyers do not understand the auction format, and still want the benefits of a cheaper price while demanding
"approval" or return privileges.
<< <i>ANA members are required to accept returns, if he's an ANA member you might want to mention that.. >>
ANA dealers may refuse returns on certified coins, as they are fungible.
<< <i>I wouldn't even attempt to buy something certified knowing there was a "no return" policy. That's just bad business. >>
That was the entire idea behind slabs, so that coins could trade based on the grade on the slab, sight unseen, no returns, with
any problems handled under the grading service's warranty.
<< <i>I wouldn't even attempt to buy something certified knowing there was a "no return" policy. That's just bad business. >>
<< <i>ANA dealers may refuse returns on certified coins, as they are fungible. >>
First, the idea that certified coins are fungible is comical. Second, I see no distinction in the ANA Dealer Code of Ethics between certified and raw coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>ANA dealers may refuse returns on certified coins, as they are fungible. >>
First, the idea that certified coins are fungible is comical. Second, I see no distinction in the ANA Dealer Code of Ethics between certified and raw coins. >>
Well, that was the original idea in the first place. Something like grading Utopia.
<< <i>FC & Ksteelheader- I agree with you. Now to convince the other 99 percent... >>
I've noticed that you three often agree on your dissent. --Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>FC & Ksteelheader- I agree with you. Now to convince the other 99 percent... >>
I've noticed that you three often agree on your dissent. --Jerry >>
ksteelheader is my alt :-) ;-)
pennyannie is simply wise!
<< <i>I have noticed many eBay sellers have an "all sales final" rule for certified coins, but I don't understand why. If anything, sellers should have no problem taking back certified coins. Unlike raw coins, certified coins are tamper-proof, so there is much less risk of fraud/switching. Also, certified coins have better liquidity, meaning they should be easier to re-sell in case of a return.
I thought the whole point was to buy the coin, not the holder. I think these sellers' "no return" policy is unreasonable, and basically it's saying it's OK to dump an overgraded certified coin on you, and there's nothing you can do about it. Am I wrong? >>
Sorta like the great and wonderful Heritage signature auctions wiyh their $$hIty pictures.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>First time i have ever agreed with ksteelheader i get labeled. LOL >>
Labels fade with time.
<< <i>an auction by nature is an AS IS environment, be it a public auction or ebay or what have you, it is as much an opportunity to make a few dollars as it is to waste a few dollars, an auction is NOT an approval sale. >>
Had a guy want his money back on a rather expensive (~$1000) certified coin because "I wanted to take it to Long Beach to
flip it, but it arrived the day after I left, so now it is of no use to me..."
<< <i>Because they are cowards who hide behind the grade on the slab instead of standing behind their coins. >>
There is a return privilege, whether the seller wants one or not.
As a seller, you can put whatever terms you want into a auction listing. If they conflict with eBay or PayPal
policy, they are meaningless and bogus...
I also agree with the posters who stated they ignore sellers without a return privilege. From the consumer's
point of view, they do not deserve your patronage!
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
not only that -
they stink and nobody likes them .
<< <i>
<< <i>ANA members are required to accept returns, if he's an ANA member you might want to mention that.. >>
ANA dealers may refuse returns on certified coins, as they are fungible. >>
Fungible...what a great word!
ANA members are required to accept returns (you do not have to self-identify as a "dealer") on all numismatic items except bullion. This includes certified coins - which incidentally are not necessarily fungible (just ask those who have tried to "funge" third tier slabbed coins).
While that is nice and comforting...the ANA has no real "power" to enforce a return policy. The only recourse they have is to void the seller's membership after going through the long mediation process (which is free for ANA members, but not for non-members). In the end after the extensive paperwork and committee discussions, you can expect either that the seller either accepts your return or he or she is removed as a member. There is no public humiliation, no banning of selling coins, no flaming bags of dog poo on somebody's door...just the resolution. It is not a trivial process and it can't be done with simple email or call to the ANA complaining about a seller.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>Maybe they aren't running an approval service and they're tired of buyers coming down with buyer's remorse. Just a guess. >>
<< <i>I have noticed many eBay sellers have an "all sales final" rule for certified coins, but I don't understand why. If anything, sellers should have no problem taking back certified coins. Unlike raw coins, certified coins are tamper-proof, so there is much less risk of fraud/switching. Also, certified coins have better liquidity, meaning they should be easier to re-sell in case of a return.
I thought the whole point was to buy the coin, not the holder. I think these sellers' "no return" policy is unreasonable, and basically it's saying it's OK to dump an overgraded certified coin on you, and there's nothing you can do about it. Am I wrong? >>
no your right
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
ANA members are required to accept returns (you do not have to self-identify as a "dealer") on all numismatic items except bullion. This includes certified coins - which incidentally are not necessarily fungible (just ask those who have tried to "funge" third tier slabbed coins). >>
You are incorrect.
"I shall have the right to enforce my written terms of sale furnished to a customer or the written provisions of my contract with a customer, even if such terms and/or provisions restrict or prohibit the return of numismatic material, contrary to the return privilege provisions set forth herein."
from http://www.money.org/AM/Template.cfm?template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=8990
<< <i>
<< <i>I have noticed many eBay sellers have an "all sales final" rule for certified coins, but I don't understand why. If anything, sellers should have no problem taking back certified coins. Unlike raw coins, certified coins are tamper-proof, so there is much less risk of fraud/switching. Also, certified coins have better liquidity, meaning they should be easier to re-sell in case of a return.
I thought the whole point was to buy the coin, not the holder. I think these sellers' "no return" policy is unreasonable, and basically it's saying it's OK to dump an overgraded certified coin on you, and there's nothing you can do about it. Am I wrong? >>
no your right >>
Its a disclaimer because they did not grade or slab the coin just like a car dealer asks you to sign a waiver saying they are not liable for defects cuz they didn't make the car.
<< <i>
<< <i>
ANA members are required to accept returns (you do not have to self-identify as a "dealer") on all numismatic items except bullion. This includes certified coins - which incidentally are not necessarily fungible (just ask those who have tried to "funge" third tier slabbed coins). >>
You are incorrect.
"I shall have the right to enforce my written terms of sale furnished to a customer or the written provisions of my contract with a customer, even if such terms and/or provisions restrict or prohibit the return of numismatic material, contrary to the return privilege provisions set forth herein."
from http://www.money.org/AM/Template.cfm?template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=8990 >>
Well...it looks like I stand corrected. I was going by what is in the bylaws. Thanks for pointing this out.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
<< <i>Because they are cowards who hide behind the grade on the slab instead of standing behind their coins. >>
cowards and sissy's !