<< <i>PayPal has not done anything you did not authorize them to do by accepting their terms of service. >>
Would those be the same terms of service where PayPal says that a buyer filing a "not as described" claim is supposed to return the item to the seller? >>
There are standard procedures which are followed in a disputed transaction. Some of them are outlined here.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
i am sorry to hear this happened to you. i thought if you print the usps invoice through paypal as you indicated, you can only insure it up to $500. am i wrong here? anything higher has to be done at the post office i thought. lastly, i would definately talk to your local police department. although some depts dont get involved, i think more and more they are getting involved since internet crimes is one of if not the fastest growing crime.
For one thing, there is nothing in the TOS that permits PayPal to decline the Seller Protection Policy without providing me with proof for the basis for that denial. In court, I would have the initial burden to show that I was covered by the policy (i.e., I am a verified seller, I sent item promptly to a certified address, etc.). Once I showed that, the burden would shift to PayPal to prove that there was an exception to coverage. By failing to provide that proof to me, they are in breach of the agreement, I believe.
Second, while the buyer has chargeback rights, I should have the related right to defend myself against the chargeback. To date, I have received no information concerning the basis of that chargeback, thus I cannot properly defend myself against it. It is that right of confrontation that is central to "due process."
Third, there is nothing in the TOS that prohibits PayPal from telling me what documents that they have provided to AMEX on my behalf. If they are going to "advocate" on my behalf, they have the related obligation to keep me informed as to what, exactly, they have done in furtherance of my rights. How else will I know if my rights are really being protected?
<< <i>PayPal has not done anything you did not authorize them to do by accepting their terms of service. Likewise, the buyer has chargeback rights and due process must run it's course. That is a chance you are willing to take every time you accept a payment via credit card, through PayPal or not. >>
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
You are correct about the amount of POSTAL insurance available, but that's not the issue here. If the item had been lost or damaged by the USPS (in other words, had he claimed that he never received it or that it was damaged in shipment), then the USPS would only cover $500 of that and either I (or, possibly, the PayPal Seller Protection plan) would be responsible for the rest. (I purchased $500 in postal insurance because that was the max I could buy through PayPal.) But at the moment, there is no indication that the coin was lost or damaged by the USPS. It was received on February 11th -- so it was received -- and nobody has indicated that it was damaged in shipment. In other words, this does not appear to be a shipping issue so the amount of shipping insurance is irrelevant.
<< <i>i am sorry to hear this happened to you. i thought if you print the usps invoice through paypal as you indicated, you can only insure it up to $500. am i wrong here? anything higher has to be done at the post office i thought. lastly, i would definately talk to your local police department. although some depts dont get involved, i think more and more they are getting involved since internet crimes is one of if not the fastest growing crime. >>
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
It is in many people's interest that this is resolved in your favor if such a certified coin can be claimed "not substantially as described ".
Once an angle like this becomes known then this kind of fraud starts to blossom and it will start occuring more and more.
I'd say try to get NGC perhaps involved on your side due to the "not substantially as described " reason. They may not be helpful or interested but then bring up the point that the only issued involved could be the grade is in dispute, then and perhaps NGC has liability to you.
<< <i>Going to respectfully disagree with you there.
For one thing, there is nothing in the TOS that permits PayPal to decline the Seller Protection Policy without providing me with proof for the basis for that denial. In court, I would have the initial burden to show that I was covered by the policy (i.e., I am a verified seller, I sent item promptly to a certified address, etc.). Once I showed that, the burden would shift to PayPal to prove that there was an exception to coverage. By failing to provide that proof to me, they are in breach of the agreement, I believe.
Second, while the buyer has chargeback rights, I should have the related right to defend myself against the chargeback. To date, I have received no information concerning the basis of that chargeback, thus I cannot properly defend myself against it. It is that right of confrontation that is central to "due process."
Third, there is nothing in the TOS that prohibits PayPal from telling me what documents that they have provided to AMEX on my behalf. If they are going to "advocate" on my behalf, they have the related obligation to keep me informed as to what, exactly, they have done in furtherance of my rights. How else will I know if my rights are really being protected?
<< <i>PayPal has not done anything you did not authorize them to do by accepting their terms of service. Likewise, the buyer has chargeback rights and due process must run it's course. That is a chance you are willing to take every time you accept a payment via credit card, through PayPal or not. >>
>>
The PayPal Seller Protection outlines that in order for a transaction to be considered eligible, it must state eligibilty in the transaction detail. It also states Seller Protection does not cover 'Not as described' disputes.
You will be notified and be able to present your case as part of the chargeback process which can take up to 60 days.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
idea for future reference - only accept Paypal's 'eCheck', Postal Money order (easiest to check for fraud), or Cashiers Check (still check for fraud)- It has worked for me. I don't take chances with credit cards for high ticket items via eBay/Paypal transactions. Nope, never will.
sorry you got the big screw - hope you get it resolved.
strange the guy got booted? off eBay - or did he leave of his own accord?
I don't blame you at all. You should call them and then follow up with a written letter to explain why you are not using Pay Pal. Let them know as if they care.
I think you are missing my point. Either that or I'm not explaining it well.
I *KNOW* that the PayPal Seller Protection does not cover NSAD disputes. My point is that, if PayPal wishes to avail itself of that exception, PayPal has a burden to produce SOME evidence in support of it. So far they've produced nothing. Nothing. Not an email from the customer, not an explanation of why the slabbed coin I sent differed from the one that was requested -- NOTHING.
The *PRIMARY* point of this thread (other than my just complaining about what I feel is a rip off on several levels) is THIS: If my money is going to be taken from my account, and I can prove I did what I was supposed to do, then SOMEBODY -- PayPal, AMEX, the customer -- should be providing me with (a) evidence of the problem, (b) a full and fair opportunity to respond to that evidence, and (c) documentation that precisely delineates what has been received from me.
Not a complicated issue really. And one that may end up screwing ANYBODY on this board who sells a coin and accepts PayPal for payment which, I believe, is a lot of us.
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
Funny (okay, not really funny) story about the eCheck thing. I tried ... really really TRIED ... to get him to pay by eCheck. Not because of this situation (I hadn't even remotely considered that this COULD happen until it did!) but because it would drop my fees down to $5. He refused to pay that way.
His justification: he didn't want me to have access to his bank account. I tried to explain that paying by eCheck does NOT give me access to his bank account and that he could verify that with PayPal directly. But, no, he said he would pay by credit card only.
In retrospect, and in my more paranoid moments, I look at that conversation and think that he MAY have had ulterior motives for wanting to use his credit card. But at the time, I didn't want echeck to be a deal breaker.
And, yes, I saved all of the emails and forwarded them to PayPal who (I hope) forwarded them to AMEX.
As for why the guy got booted: I don't know. After this all came to light about 10 days ago, I tried to pull up his eBay sales in the last month to see if he flipped the coin. To my surprise, I discovered (a) he's no longer a registered user, and (b) eBay prohibits you from searching the past sales of somebody who is NLARU. So I'm not sure why he's no longer on eBay, although I suspect those 4 or 5 negatives in the last month (and his rendering his feedback not viewable) may hold the answer there.
(I also tried looking for the coin itself in past sales and didn't find it. Of course, I'm not sure if eBay totally eliminates the auctions for folks who are no longer registered.)
<< <i>idea for future reference - only accept Paypal's 'eCheck', Postal Money order (easiest to check for fraud), or Cashiers Check (still check for fraud)- It has worked for me. I don't take chances with credit cards for high ticket items via eBay/Paypal transactions. Nope, never will.
sorry you got the big screw - hope you get it resolved.
strange the guy got booted? off eBay - or did he leave of his own accord? >>
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
My guess is that he just scammed a bunch of people and Paypal wants to spread the liability through the poor schmucks like you rather than taking the loss themselves. I urge you to fight this as far as it takes. If you have to go to court, make sure you alert the media to what Paypal is doing.
<< <i>I think you are missing my point. Either that or I'm not explaining it well.
I *KNOW* that the PayPal Seller Protection does not cover NSAD disputes. My point is that, if PayPal wishes to avail itself of that exception, PayPal has a burden to produce SOME evidence in support of it. So far they've produced nothing. Nothing. Not an email from the customer, not an explanation of why the slabbed coin I sent differed from the one that was requested -- NOTHING.
The *PRIMARY* point of this thread (other than my just complaining about what I feel is a rip off on several levels) is THIS: If my money is going to be taken from my account, and I can prove I did what I was supposed to do, then SOMEBODY -- PayPal, AMEX, the customer -- should be providing me with (a) evidence of the problem, (b) a full and fair opportunity to respond to that evidence, and (c) documentation that precisely delineates what has been received from me.
Not a complicated issue really. And one that may end up screwing ANYBODY on this board who sells a coin and accepts PayPal for payment which, I believe, is a lot of us. >>
Sorry, the seller protection policy clearly exempts 'not as described disputes' and you accept that every time you choose to do business with them or any other merchant services that offers payment via credit cards. Once the chargeback dispute is started, the determination as to wether the buyer has legitimate complaint is made by the buyers credit card company not PayPal.
I believe you do not understand the chargeback process. The buyer contacts ther credit card company which starts the chargeback and gives the buyer a temporary credit while the dispute is investigated. The CC company will then contact PayPal and automatically debit their account for the amount of the dispute plus a chargeback fee. That is when your PayPal account is debited and you are notified of the chargeback by PayPal. The buyer is informed to gather documentation to support their claim and to not ship the item back to the seller until a determination has been made. As part of the process, they will request your supporting evidence which is forwarded to the card issuer.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
I just got off the telehone with PayPal and told them that I was getting a little nervous because of your situation and that I was considering closing my account. They told me that you shoud call them and explain the situation to a supervisor, they also said that they will provide amex with all of the documentation you have given them but only if amex requests the information. I told them that I have had an acct with them since Jan 2000 and I will see how this situation plays out and that if they didn't rule in your favor that I will be closing my account. Please keep us informed
There is nothing like an uncirculated set of washington quarters!!!
<< <i>I just got off the telehone with PayPal and told them that I was getting a little nervous because of your situation and that I was considering closing my account. They told me that you shoud call them and explain the situation to a supervisor, they also said that they will provide amex with all of the documentation you have given them but only if amex requests the information. I told them that I have had an acct with them since Jan 2000 and I will see how this situation plays out and that if they didn't rule in your favor that I will be closing my account. Please keep us informed >>
FL buff hunter explained things correctly. In the world of credit card procesors, PayPal is like all the rest. The vast majority of processors wouldn't do jack for you and let you eat it. It costs them nothing and they charge you additional fees. What's their motivation to be proactive on your behalf? Amex? They want to keep the customer using their card. Why would they care about the seller's counterclaim?
If Kalifornia is a loser pays all costs in small claims court, I'd drag AMEX, PayPal and the buyer in there. I think the seller has a valid point - show him some PROOF of the SNAD claim.
Thank you for the support. I've also been a member since 2000. I have already provided them with my documentation (although they won't tell me what, if anything, they forwarded to AMEX). I will call them again a little later and ask to speak with a supervisor.
<< <i>I just got off the telehone with PayPal and told them that I was getting a little nervous because of your situation and that I was considering closing my account. They told me that you shoud call them and explain the situation to a supervisor, they also said that they will provide amex with all of the documentation you have given them but only if amex requests the information. I told them that I have had an acct with them since Jan 2000 and I will see how this situation plays out and that if they didn't rule in your favor that I will be closing my account. Please keep us informed >>
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
Again, we're talking past each other. I know what the PayPal Seller Protection policy covers. The singular question is whether PayPal, to implement an exemption from it, has an obligation to provide me with some proof that the transaction in question is a NSAD. I say, yes, PayPal has to make some sort of proof that the buyer is claiming that my coin was NSAD in order to avail itself of that exemption. I'm not sure what your position is, but it seems that you are saying that PayPal can merely contend WITHOUT PROVIDING PROOF that this is a NSAD in order to avoid providing the protection. If that is indeed your position, then we respectfully disagree.
As for my not understanding the chargeback process, I can say with certainty that I understand it pretty well. The problem I have is that your final assertion -- that AMEX will request supporting documentation from me -- is apparently not occurring. Not only that, but nobody is telling me WHAT, exactly, I am supposed to document because NOBODY has confirmed what the customer is contending was wrong with our transaction. Nor has either AMEX or PayPal expressed a willingness to clarify those issues.
<< <i>Sorry, the seller protection policy clearly exempts 'not as described disputes' and you accept that every time you choose to do business with them or any other merchant services that offers payment via credit cards. Once the chargeback dispute is started, the determination as to wether the buyer has legitimate complaint is made by the buyers credit card company not PayPal.
I believe you do not understand the chargeback process. The buyer contacts ther credit card company which starts the chargeback and gives the buyer a temporary credit while the dispute is investigated. The CC company will then contact PayPal and automatically debit their account for the amount of the dispute plus a chargeback fee. That is when your PayPal account is debited and you are notified of the chargeback by PayPal. The buyer is informed to gather documentation to support their claim and to not ship the item back to the seller until a determination has been made. As part of the process, they will request your supporting evidence which is forwarded to the card issuer. >>
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
<< <i>Keep away from PP. They are an arrogant bunch and once they have your funds they make the rules. >>
The bad thing is.... how other situations like this are out there that never get any publicity. Paypal attitude reminds me of the USSR's treatment of their people. Run !!!!
By the way, this is the coin in question. Sorry about the blurry scan - it was made for inventory purposes, not display purposes. If anybody sees this coin for sale anywhere, please let me know:
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
Just though about this, our local news station has a group that helps out with stuff like this and try's to get answers. Makes for good local and sometimes goes national news.
<< <i>Just though about this, our local news station has a group that helps out with stuff like this and try's to get answers. Makes for good local and sometimes goes national news. >>
Experience has shown both local and national media are keen on stories where the little guy has been screwed by "big business", but don't give much of a rip for the small business guy being taken by joe smoe, which I suspect is how this situation would be viewed. You are fortunate if you have some news station that goes against the flow.
Apparent that this guy was a hit and run scammer..Bought a LOT of expensive stuff in a month or so... Screwed everyone. The positives were the ones that left feedback before the chargeback came.
Guys like this can knock down a cool $50,000 before any of the chargecard companies report to each other. My guess is he used several cards too. Mostly under stolen identity perhaps.
$30 will get you a small claims suit going for Non Payment..
<< <i>Again, we're talking past each other. I know what the PayPal Seller Protection policy covers. The singular question is whether PayPal, to implement an exemption from it, has an obligation to provide me with some proof that the transaction in question is a NSAD. I say, yes, PayPal has to make some sort of proof that the buyer is claiming that my coin was NSAD in order to avail itself of that exemption. I'm not sure what your position is, but it seems that you are saying that PayPal can merely contend WITHOUT PROVIDING PROOF that this is a NSAD in order to avoid providing the protection. If that is indeed your position, then we respectfully disagree.
As for my not understanding the chargeback process, I can say with certainty that I understand it pretty well. The problem I have is that your final assertion -- that AMEX will request supporting documentation from me -- is apparently not occurring. Not only that, but nobody is telling me WHAT, exactly, I am supposed to document because NOBODY has confirmed what the customer is contending was wrong with our transaction. Nor has either AMEX or PayPal expressed a willingness to clarify those issues. >>
It's called due process. I believe credit card companies give the buyer 10 days to gather documentation supporting their claim. After they receive it and review it, you it you wil be contacted and informed what the claim is and be given the opportunity to present any evidece countering his claim after which the case is reviewed and a determintation will be made as to wether the buyers claim is valid.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
Well, I am feeling nauseated. Frank Lee of Los Gatos, Ca bought a '06 $50 Plat NGC PF 70 from me on 2/1/08 . Same MO , contacted via ebay, purchased directly, paid via paypal. I had a bad feeling about the transaction, but went thru anyway. Nothing has come back yet, but based on what I am reading, it is only a matter of time. Wonderful. -Ben
I "will" be contacted by AMEX, huh? Care to make a bet on that?
Even assuming that the 10-day window for the buyer to "gather his documentation" started 11-days ago (when I got the email from PayPal) and not six weeks ago when the coin was delivered, it's not looking real likely that I'll be getting that call from AMEX any time soon. But, hey, operators are standing by!
And -- oh yeah -- I believe I've already stated here that AMEX has affirmatively told me that they will never, ever -- under any circumstances -- either accept ANY information from me or provide me with any proof of the underlying claim. Never.
Hey -- did I just hear the phone ringing??? Was that AMEX telling me why they have my money and wanting to hear my side of the story??? No, darn it, wrong number. But that next call, that'll be AMEX -- I can feel it!
As for the definition of "due process," we just keep disagreeing, my friend. Due process (to me, at least) is when one is apprised of the charges against him and given the opportunity to defend himself in an open proceeding ... before a neutral and detached judge ... PRIOR to being deprived of property.
Of course, I can't club your cheerful optimism too much. If it were YOUR money involved and not mine, admittedly I might be more willing to accept this treatment as "due process," too.
Hold on ... I just received an email! Maybe it's from AMEX!!!! ... Ah, rats, it wasn't. But the good news is that I just won $6.8 Million in a Nigerian lottery ...
<< <i>It's called due process. I believe credit card companies give the buyer 10 days to gather documentation supporting their claim. After they receive it and review it, you it you wil be contacted and informed what the claim is and be given the opportunity to present any evidece countering his claim after which the case is reviewed and a determintation will be made as to wether the buyers claim is valid. >>
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
Few more words on my dealings with this guy. When he initially contacted me, he had already made 3 offers below my automatic rejection amount. He then sent the message thru, that he was interested, but could not make any additional offers. He was playing the ebay system, and me obviously. -Ben
<< <i>Well, I am feeling nauseated. Frank Lee of Los Gatos, Ca bought a '06 $50 Plat NGC PF 70 from me on 2/1/08 . Same MO , contacted via ebay, purchased directly, paid via paypal. I had a bad feeling about the transaction, but went thru anyway. Nothing has come back yet, but based on what I am reading, it is only a matter of time. Wonderful. -Ben >>
Make sure that you PP account and any linked bank accounts are EMPTY ZEEROW balance. Poop always rolls down hill; CC company takes from PP and PP in turn takes from you. If you aint got no balance then PP is on the hook till its settled so they have a vested interest in helping you to the extent that they can which IMO aint very much; afterall what can PP do about an item that is allegedly NSAD?
Thanks, Ben. I've emailed you off list. I got a similar "made 3 offers" email from him, which I just forwarded to you. Please call me to discuss.
<< <i>Few more words on my dealings with this guy. When he initially contacted me, he had already made 3 offers below my automatic rejection amount. He then sent the message thru, that he was interested, but could not make any additional offers. He was playing the ebay system, and me obviously. -Ben >>
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
<< <i>I "will" be contacted by AMEX, huh? Care to make a bet on that?
Even assuming that the 10-day window for the buyer to "gather his documentation" started 11-days ago (when I got the email from PayPal) and not six weeks ago when the coin was delivered, it's not looking real likely that I'll be getting that call from AMEX any time soon. But, hey, operators are standing by!
And -- oh yeah -- I believe I've already stated here that AMEX has affirmatively told me that they will never, ever -- under any circumstances -- either accept ANY information from me or provide me with any proof of the underlying claim. Never.
Hey -- did I just hear the phone ringing??? Was that AMEX telling me why they have my money and wanting to hear my side of the story??? No, darn it, wrong number. But that next call, that'll be AMEX -- I can feel it!
As for the definition of "due process," we just keep disagreeing, my friend. Due process (to me, at least) is when one is apprised of the charges against him and given the opportunity to defend himself in an open proceeding ... before a neutral and detached judge ... PRIOR to being deprived of property.
Of course, I can't club your cheerful optimism too much. If it were YOUR money involved and not mine, admittedly I might be more willing to accept this treatment as "due process," too.
Hold on ... I just received an email! Maybe it's from AMEX!!!! ... Ah, rats, it wasn't. But the good news is that I just won $6.8 Million in a Nigerian lottery ...
<< <i>It's called due process. I believe credit card companies give the buyer 10 days to gather documentation supporting their claim. After they receive it and review it, you it you wil be contacted and informed what the claim is and be given the opportunity to present any evidece countering his claim after which the case is reviewed and a determintation will be made as to wether the buyers claim is valid. >>
>>
If they rule against you then you will have to take them to court. Considering the alleged reason for the chargeback it would be interesting if you could show that their decision was influenced by the fact that this Frank Lee dude owed them money with little likelihood of their recovering it from him
<< <i>I "will" be contacted by AMEX, huh? Care to make a bet on that?
Even assuming that the 10-day window for the buyer to "gather his documentation" started 11-days ago (when I got the email from PayPal) and not six weeks ago when the coin was delivered, it's not looking real likely that I'll be getting that call from AMEX any time soon. But, hey, operators are standing by!
And -- oh yeah -- I believe I've already stated here that AMEX has affirmatively told me that they will never, ever -- under any circumstances -- either accept ANY information from me or provide me with any proof of the underlying claim. Never.
Hey -- did I just hear the phone ringing??? Was that AMEX telling me why they have my money and wanting to hear my side of the story??? No, darn it, wrong number. But that next call, that'll be AMEX -- I can feel it!
As for the definition of "due process," we just keep disagreeing, my friend. Due process (to me, at least) is when one is apprised of the charges against him and given the opportunity to defend himself in an open proceeding ... before a neutral and detached judge ... PRIOR to being deprived of property.
Of course, I can't club your cheerful optimism too much. If it were YOUR money involved and not mine, admittedly I might be more willing to accept this treatment as "due process," too.
Hold on ... I just received an email! Maybe it's from AMEX!!!! ... Ah, rats, it wasn't. But the good news is that I just won $6.8 Million in a Nigerian lottery ...
<< <i>It's called due process. I believe credit card companies give the buyer 10 days to gather documentation supporting their claim. After they receive it and review it, you it you wil be contacted and informed what the claim is and be given the opportunity to present any evidece countering his claim after which the case is reviewed and a determintation will be made as to wether the buyers claim is valid. >>
>>
By accepting credit cards for payment you are subject to the terms and regulations governing fair credit laws and chargeback dsputes. If you accept credit cards, that is a fact you are agreeing to accept. IMO, nothing you have posted indicates your case is being handled in a manner that differs from standard policy.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
This is why I've always believed that Ebay, Paypal, Stubhub, etc will eventually be blown up be scammers. This is a horrible ripoff and I'm betting you never see the coin or your money again. And what about all the transactions we don't know about ? A few years ago there was a high end camera dealer on Ebay with a pristine reputation, then one day poof. 20 negs in a row for failing to deliver.
"...I'm betting you never see the coin or your money again. ..."
////////////////////////////////////////////////
I would expect the opposite results.
Fake SNAD claims are fairly easy to overcome, in the graded-collectibles fields.
In any event, at some point, PP will ask AMEX to request that the "buyer" return the item to the seller. If that does not happen, PP could easily take the hold off of the money, and leave AMEX hanging.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>PayPal has not done anything you did not authorize them to do by accepting their terms of service. >>
Would those be the same terms of service where PayPal says that a buyer filing a "not as described" claim is supposed to return the item to the seller? >>
There are standard procedures which are followed in a disputed transaction. Some of them are outlined here.
For one thing, there is nothing in the TOS that permits PayPal to decline the Seller Protection Policy without providing me with proof for the basis for that denial. In court, I would have the initial burden to show that I was covered by the policy (i.e., I am a verified seller, I sent item promptly to a certified address, etc.). Once I showed that, the burden would shift to PayPal to prove that there was an exception to coverage. By failing to provide that proof to me, they are in breach of the agreement, I believe.
Second, while the buyer has chargeback rights, I should have the related right to defend myself against the chargeback. To date, I have received no information concerning the basis of that chargeback, thus I cannot properly defend myself against it. It is that right of confrontation that is central to "due process."
Third, there is nothing in the TOS that prohibits PayPal from telling me what documents that they have provided to AMEX on my behalf. If they are going to "advocate" on my behalf, they have the related obligation to keep me informed as to what, exactly, they have done in furtherance of my rights. How else will I know if my rights are really being protected?
<< <i>PayPal has not done anything you did not authorize them to do by accepting their terms of service. Likewise, the buyer has chargeback rights and due process must run it's course. That is a chance you are willing to take every time you accept a payment via credit card, through PayPal or not. >>
Please visit our eBay store:
FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback)
** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
<< <i>i am sorry to hear this happened to you. i thought if you print the usps invoice through paypal as you indicated, you can only insure it up to $500. am i wrong here? anything higher has to be done at the post office i thought. lastly, i would definately talk to your local police department. although some depts dont get involved, i think more and more they are getting involved since internet crimes is one of if not the fastest growing crime. >>
Please visit our eBay store:
FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback)
** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
Once an angle like this becomes known then this kind of fraud starts to blossom and it will start occuring more and more.
I'd say try to get NGC perhaps involved on your side due to the "not substantially as described " reason. They may not be helpful or interested but then bring up the point that the only issued involved could be the grade is in dispute, then and perhaps NGC has liability to you.
<< <i>Going to respectfully disagree with you there.
For one thing, there is nothing in the TOS that permits PayPal to decline the Seller Protection Policy without providing me with proof for the basis for that denial. In court, I would have the initial burden to show that I was covered by the policy (i.e., I am a verified seller, I sent item promptly to a certified address, etc.). Once I showed that, the burden would shift to PayPal to prove that there was an exception to coverage. By failing to provide that proof to me, they are in breach of the agreement, I believe.
Second, while the buyer has chargeback rights, I should have the related right to defend myself against the chargeback. To date, I have received no information concerning the basis of that chargeback, thus I cannot properly defend myself against it. It is that right of confrontation that is central to "due process."
Third, there is nothing in the TOS that prohibits PayPal from telling me what documents that they have provided to AMEX on my behalf. If they are going to "advocate" on my behalf, they have the related obligation to keep me informed as to what, exactly, they have done in furtherance of my rights. How else will I know if my rights are really being protected?
<< <i>PayPal has not done anything you did not authorize them to do by accepting their terms of service. Likewise, the buyer has chargeback rights and due process must run it's course. That is a chance you are willing to take every time you accept a payment via credit card, through PayPal or not. >>
>>
The PayPal Seller Protection outlines that in order for a transaction to be considered eligible, it must state eligibilty in the transaction detail. It also states Seller Protection does not cover 'Not as described' disputes.
You will be notified and be able to present your case as part of the chargeback process which can take up to 60 days.
sorry you got the big screw - hope you get it resolved.
strange the guy got booted? off eBay - or did he leave of his own accord?
Www.killermarbles.com
Www.suncitycoin.com
I *KNOW* that the PayPal Seller Protection does not cover NSAD disputes. My point is that, if PayPal wishes to avail itself of that exception, PayPal has a burden to produce SOME evidence in support of it. So far they've produced nothing. Nothing. Not an email from the customer, not an explanation of why the slabbed coin I sent differed from the one that was requested -- NOTHING.
The *PRIMARY* point of this thread (other than my just complaining about what I feel is a rip off on several levels) is THIS: If my money is going to be taken from my account, and I can prove I did what I was supposed to do, then SOMEBODY -- PayPal, AMEX, the customer -- should be providing me with (a) evidence of the problem, (b) a full and fair opportunity to respond to that evidence, and (c) documentation that precisely delineates what has been received from me.
Not a complicated issue really. And one that may end up screwing ANYBODY on this board who sells a coin and accepts PayPal for payment which, I believe, is a lot of us.
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<< <i>So what's the guy's real name? Many of us sell moderns directly off ebay. --Jerry >>
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For the moment, I guess a full description is in order: it's a 2006-W half ounce ($50) platinum proof in an NGC PF70UC holder, cert #2513927-007.
<< <i>If I sell a coin that is worth $500 or more, I photograph the coin with the packing slip. This has helped me more than once. >>
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His justification: he didn't want me to have access to his bank account. I tried to explain that paying by eCheck does NOT give me access to his bank account and that he could verify that with PayPal directly. But, no, he said he would pay by credit card only.
In retrospect, and in my more paranoid moments, I look at that conversation and think that he MAY have had ulterior motives for wanting to use his credit card. But at the time, I didn't want echeck to be a deal breaker.
And, yes, I saved all of the emails and forwarded them to PayPal who (I hope) forwarded them to AMEX.
As for why the guy got booted: I don't know. After this all came to light about 10 days ago, I tried to pull up his eBay sales in the last month to see if he flipped the coin. To my surprise, I discovered (a) he's no longer a registered user, and (b) eBay prohibits you from searching the past sales of somebody who is NLARU. So I'm not sure why he's no longer on eBay, although I suspect those 4 or 5 negatives in the last month (and his rendering his feedback not viewable) may hold the answer there.
For your viewing pleasure: here's his feedback profile again.
(I also tried looking for the coin itself in past sales and didn't find it. Of course, I'm not sure if eBay totally eliminates the auctions for folks who are no longer registered.)
<< <i>idea for future reference - only accept Paypal's 'eCheck', Postal Money order (easiest to check for fraud), or Cashiers Check (still check for fraud)- It has worked for me. I don't take chances with credit cards for high ticket items via eBay/Paypal transactions. Nope, never will.
sorry you got the big screw - hope you get it resolved.
strange the guy got booted? off eBay - or did he leave of his own accord? >>
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Personally, I'd go after him just because he donated $2000 to Barbara Boxer and describes himself as a "venture investor".
<< <i>I think you are missing my point. Either that or I'm not explaining it well.
I *KNOW* that the PayPal Seller Protection does not cover NSAD disputes. My point is that, if PayPal wishes to avail itself of that exception, PayPal has a burden to produce SOME evidence in support of it. So far they've produced nothing. Nothing. Not an email from the customer, not an explanation of why the slabbed coin I sent differed from the one that was requested -- NOTHING.
The *PRIMARY* point of this thread (other than my just complaining about what I feel is a rip off on several levels) is THIS: If my money is going to be taken from my account, and I can prove I did what I was supposed to do, then SOMEBODY -- PayPal, AMEX, the customer -- should be providing me with (a) evidence of the problem, (b) a full and fair opportunity to respond to that evidence, and (c) documentation that precisely delineates what has been received from me.
Not a complicated issue really. And one that may end up screwing ANYBODY on this board who sells a coin and accepts PayPal for payment which, I believe, is a lot of us. >>
Sorry, the seller protection policy clearly exempts 'not as described disputes' and you accept that every time you choose to do business with them or any other merchant services that offers payment via credit cards. Once the chargeback dispute is started, the determination as to wether the buyer has legitimate complaint is made by the buyers credit card company not PayPal.
I believe you do not understand the chargeback process. The buyer contacts ther credit card company which starts the chargeback and gives the buyer a temporary credit while the dispute is investigated. The CC company will then contact PayPal and automatically debit their account for the amount of the dispute plus a chargeback fee. That is when your PayPal account is debited and you are notified of the chargeback by PayPal. The buyer is informed to gather documentation to support their claim and to not ship the item back to the seller until a determination has been made. As part of the process, they will request your supporting evidence which is forwarded to the card issuer.
they make the rules.
<< <i>I just got off the telehone with PayPal and told them that I was getting a little nervous because of your situation and that I was considering closing my account. They told me that you shoud call them and explain the situation to a supervisor, they also said that they will provide amex with all of the documentation you have given them but only if amex requests the information. I told them that I have had an acct with them since Jan 2000 and I will see how this situation plays out and that if they didn't rule in your favor that I will be closing my account. Please keep us informed >>
FL buff hunter explained things correctly. In the world of credit card procesors, PayPal is like all the rest. The vast majority of processors wouldn't do jack for you and let you eat it. It costs them nothing and they charge you additional fees. What's their motivation to be proactive on your behalf? Amex? They want to keep the customer using their card. Why would they care about the seller's counterclaim?
If Kalifornia is a loser pays all costs in small claims court, I'd drag AMEX, PayPal and the buyer in there. I think the seller has a valid point - show him some PROOF of the SNAD claim.
<< <i>I just got off the telehone with PayPal and told them that I was getting a little nervous because of your situation and that I was considering closing my account. They told me that you shoud call them and explain the situation to a supervisor, they also said that they will provide amex with all of the documentation you have given them but only if amex requests the information. I told them that I have had an acct with them since Jan 2000 and I will see how this situation plays out and that if they didn't rule in your favor that I will be closing my account. Please keep us informed >>
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As for my not understanding the chargeback process, I can say with certainty that I understand it pretty well. The problem I have is that your final assertion -- that AMEX will request supporting documentation from me -- is apparently not occurring. Not only that, but nobody is telling me WHAT, exactly, I am supposed to document because NOBODY has confirmed what the customer is contending was wrong with our transaction. Nor has either AMEX or PayPal expressed a willingness to clarify those issues.
<< <i>Sorry, the seller protection policy clearly exempts 'not as described disputes' and you accept that every time you choose to do business with them or any other merchant services that offers payment via credit cards. Once the chargeback dispute is started, the determination as to wether the buyer has legitimate complaint is made by the buyers credit card company not PayPal.
I believe you do not understand the chargeback process. The buyer contacts ther credit card company which starts the chargeback and gives the buyer a temporary credit while the dispute is investigated. The CC company will then contact PayPal and automatically debit their account for the amount of the dispute plus a chargeback fee. That is when your PayPal account is debited and you are notified of the chargeback by PayPal. The buyer is informed to gather documentation to support their claim and to not ship the item back to the seller until a determination has been made. As part of the process, they will request your supporting evidence which is forwarded to the card issuer. >>
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<< <i>Keep away from PP. They are an arrogant bunch and once they have your funds
they make the rules. >>
The bad thing is.... how other situations like this are out there that never get any publicity. Paypal attitude reminds me of the USSR's treatment of their people. Run !!!!
Too many times I've wondered who the criminal is, the thief/fraudster or the credit card company.
Cash is king.
<< <i>Just got off the line with PP. I'll cancel if there's an adverse outcome. Mike >>
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<< <i>Frank Lee of Los Gatos, CA. Anybody know him?
<< <i>So what's the guy's real name? Many of us sell moderns directly off ebay. --Jerry >>
>>
It can't be the Frank Lee from WSOP ?
http://www.cardplayer.com/players/results/Frank-Lee/63778
<< <i>Just though about this, our local news station has a group that helps out with stuff like this and try's to get answers. Makes for good local and sometimes goes national news. >>
Experience has shown both local and national media are keen on stories where the little guy has been screwed by "big business", but don't give much of a rip for the small business guy being taken by joe smoe, which I suspect is how this situation would be viewed. You are fortunate if you have some news station that goes against the flow.
Guys like this can knock down a cool $50,000 before any of the chargecard companies report to each other. My guess is he used several cards too. Mostly under stolen identity perhaps.
$30 will get you a small claims suit going for Non Payment..
<< <i>Again, we're talking past each other. I know what the PayPal Seller Protection policy covers. The singular question is whether PayPal, to implement an exemption from it, has an obligation to provide me with some proof that the transaction in question is a NSAD. I say, yes, PayPal has to make some sort of proof that the buyer is claiming that my coin was NSAD in order to avail itself of that exemption. I'm not sure what your position is, but it seems that you are saying that PayPal can merely contend WITHOUT PROVIDING PROOF that this is a NSAD in order to avoid providing the protection. If that is indeed your position, then we respectfully disagree.
As for my not understanding the chargeback process, I can say with certainty that I understand it pretty well. The problem I have is that your final assertion -- that AMEX will request supporting documentation from me -- is apparently not occurring. Not only that, but nobody is telling me WHAT, exactly, I am supposed to document because NOBODY has confirmed what the customer is contending was wrong with our transaction. Nor has either AMEX or PayPal expressed a willingness to clarify those issues. >>
It's called due process. I believe credit card companies give the buyer 10 days to gather documentation supporting their claim. After they receive it and review it, you it you wil be contacted and informed what the claim is and be given the opportunity to present any evidece countering his claim after which the case is reviewed and a determintation will be made as to wether the buyers claim is valid.
Even assuming that the 10-day window for the buyer to "gather his documentation" started 11-days ago (when I got the email from PayPal) and not six weeks ago when the coin was delivered, it's not looking real likely that I'll be getting that call from AMEX any time soon. But, hey, operators are standing by!
And -- oh yeah -- I believe I've already stated here that AMEX has affirmatively told me that they will never, ever -- under any circumstances -- either accept ANY information from me or provide me with any proof of the underlying claim. Never.
Hey -- did I just hear the phone ringing??? Was that AMEX telling me why they have my money and wanting to hear my side of the story??? No, darn it, wrong number. But that next call, that'll be AMEX -- I can feel it!
As for the definition of "due process," we just keep disagreeing, my friend. Due process (to me, at least) is when one is apprised of the charges against him and given the opportunity to defend himself in an open proceeding ... before a neutral and detached judge ... PRIOR to being deprived of property.
Of course, I can't club your cheerful optimism too much. If it were YOUR money involved and not mine, admittedly I might be more willing to accept this treatment as "due process," too.
Hold on ... I just received an email! Maybe it's from AMEX!!!! ... Ah, rats, it wasn't. But the good news is that I just won $6.8 Million in a Nigerian lottery ...
<< <i>It's called due process. I believe credit card companies give the buyer 10 days to gather documentation supporting their claim. After they receive it and review it, you it you wil be contacted and informed what the claim is and be given the opportunity to present any evidece countering his claim after which the case is reviewed and a determintation will be made as to wether the buyers claim is valid. >>
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There are two reasons EBAY advises sellers NOT to be sucked into off-EBAY deals.
1. EBAY gets screwed out of the fees.
2. CROOKS do suck sellers into SCAMS, by playing on the greed of sellers who try to avoid EBAY fees.
And I'm glad to know that eBay has become certified scammer-free.
It also seems that nothing in this situation would have been any different -- nothing -- if the sale had been consummated through eBay.
But thanks for chiming in.
<< <i>A Word About Off-EABY Transactions:
There are two reasons EBAY advises sellers NOT to be sucked into off-EBAY deals.
1. EBAY gets screwed out of the fees.
2. CROOKS do suck sellers into SCAMS, by playing on the greed of sellers who try to avoid EBAY fees. >>
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////////////////////////////////////
Are we all SURE of that?
<< <i>Well, I am feeling nauseated. Frank Lee of Los Gatos, Ca bought a '06 $50 Plat NGC PF 70 from me on 2/1/08 . Same MO , contacted via ebay, purchased directly, paid via paypal. I had a bad feeling about the transaction, but went thru anyway. Nothing has come back yet, but based on what I am reading, it is only a matter of time. Wonderful. -Ben >>
Make sure that you PP account and any linked bank accounts are EMPTY ZEEROW balance. Poop always rolls down hill; CC company takes from PP and PP in turn takes from you. If you aint got no balance then PP is on the hook till its settled so they have a vested interest in helping you to the extent that they can which IMO aint very much; afterall what can PP do about an item that is allegedly NSAD?
Please call me to discuss.
<< <i>Few more words on my dealings with this guy. When he initially contacted me, he had already made 3 offers below my automatic rejection amount. He then sent the message thru, that he was interested, but could not make any additional offers. He was playing the ebay system, and me obviously. -Ben >>
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<< <i>A Word About Off-EABY Transactions:
There are two reasons EBAY advises sellers NOT to be sucked into off-EBAY deals.
1. EBAY gets screwed out of the fees.
2. CROOKS do suck sellers into SCAMS, by playing on the greed of sellers who try to avoid EBAY fees. >>
In this situation it is irrelevant as to whether it went thru eBay or not.
<< <i>I "will" be contacted by AMEX, huh? Care to make a bet on that?
Even assuming that the 10-day window for the buyer to "gather his documentation" started 11-days ago (when I got the email from PayPal) and not six weeks ago when the coin was delivered, it's not looking real likely that I'll be getting that call from AMEX any time soon. But, hey, operators are standing by!
And -- oh yeah -- I believe I've already stated here that AMEX has affirmatively told me that they will never, ever -- under any circumstances -- either accept ANY information from me or provide me with any proof of the underlying claim. Never.
Hey -- did I just hear the phone ringing??? Was that AMEX telling me why they have my money and wanting to hear my side of the story??? No, darn it, wrong number. But that next call, that'll be AMEX -- I can feel it!
As for the definition of "due process," we just keep disagreeing, my friend. Due process (to me, at least) is when one is apprised of the charges against him and given the opportunity to defend himself in an open proceeding ... before a neutral and detached judge ... PRIOR to being deprived of property.
Of course, I can't club your cheerful optimism too much. If it were YOUR money involved and not mine, admittedly I might be more willing to accept this treatment as "due process," too.
Hold on ... I just received an email! Maybe it's from AMEX!!!! ... Ah, rats, it wasn't. But the good news is that I just won $6.8 Million in a Nigerian lottery ...
<< <i>It's called due process. I believe credit card companies give the buyer 10 days to gather documentation supporting their claim. After they receive it and review it, you it you wil be contacted and informed what the claim is and be given the opportunity to present any evidece countering his claim after which the case is reviewed and a determintation will be made as to wether the buyers claim is valid. >>
>>
If they rule against you then you will have to take them to court. Considering the alleged reason for the chargeback it would be interesting if you could show that their decision was influenced by the fact that this Frank Lee dude owed them money with little likelihood of their recovering it from him
<< <i>I "will" be contacted by AMEX, huh? Care to make a bet on that?
Even assuming that the 10-day window for the buyer to "gather his documentation" started 11-days ago (when I got the email from PayPal) and not six weeks ago when the coin was delivered, it's not looking real likely that I'll be getting that call from AMEX any time soon. But, hey, operators are standing by!
And -- oh yeah -- I believe I've already stated here that AMEX has affirmatively told me that they will never, ever -- under any circumstances -- either accept ANY information from me or provide me with any proof of the underlying claim. Never.
Hey -- did I just hear the phone ringing??? Was that AMEX telling me why they have my money and wanting to hear my side of the story??? No, darn it, wrong number. But that next call, that'll be AMEX -- I can feel it!
As for the definition of "due process," we just keep disagreeing, my friend. Due process (to me, at least) is when one is apprised of the charges against him and given the opportunity to defend himself in an open proceeding ... before a neutral and detached judge ... PRIOR to being deprived of property.
Of course, I can't club your cheerful optimism too much. If it were YOUR money involved and not mine, admittedly I might be more willing to accept this treatment as "due process," too.
Hold on ... I just received an email! Maybe it's from AMEX!!!! ... Ah, rats, it wasn't. But the good news is that I just won $6.8 Million in a Nigerian lottery ...
<< <i>It's called due process. I believe credit card companies give the buyer 10 days to gather documentation supporting their claim. After they receive it and review it, you it you wil be contacted and informed what the claim is and be given the opportunity to present any evidece countering his claim after which the case is reviewed and a determintation will be made as to wether the buyers claim is valid. >>
>>
By accepting credit cards for payment you are subject to the terms and regulations governing fair credit laws and chargeback dsputes. If you accept credit cards, that is a fact you are agreeing to accept. IMO, nothing you have posted indicates your case is being handled in a manner that differs from standard policy.
////////////////////////////////////////////////
I would expect the opposite results.
Fake SNAD claims are fairly easy to overcome, in the graded-collectibles fields.
In any event, at some point, PP will ask AMEX to request that the "buyer" return the
item to the seller. If that does not happen, PP could easily take the hold off of the
money, and leave AMEX hanging.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5