<< <i>Are you saying that the loser would have to pay my travel expenses? If that's true, that would be great (and also, surprising). Do you (or anybody else out in CU-land) happen to have a link to some official document that says that?
>>
My understanding, as limited as it may be, is that, if you have a loser pay small claims system, then the loser pays your costs. They get submitted to the court in your motion for a Final Judgment and the court audits and approves them. If you sue in a higher court, unless there is allegation proven which provides for costs, then they are on each party. That's why I think small claims is the way to go with a Kalifornia lawyer, imho.
<< <i>Are you saying that the loser would have to pay my travel expenses? If that's true, that would be great (and also, surprising). Do you (or anybody else out in CU-land) happen to have a link to some official document that says that?
>>
My understanding, as limited as it may be, is that, if you have a loser pay small claims system, then the loser pays your costs. They get submitted to the court in your motion for a Final Judgment and the court audits and approves them. If you sue in a higher court, unless there is allegation proven which provides for costs, then they are on each party. That's why I think small claims is the way to go with a Kalifornia lawyer, imho. >>
So who would be the loser, Frank Lee or AMEX? Methinks that one would never collect a judgement from Frank Lee.
Litigation would always be my last resort. Keeping legal fees below the value of the item sounds like a challenge and then if you do you've still given most of the loss to a lawyer. Good luck. --Jerry
<< <i>Are you saying that the loser would have to pay my travel expenses? If that's true, that would be great (and also, surprising). Do you (or anybody else out in CU-land) happen to have a link to some official document that says that?
>>
My understanding, as limited as it may be, is that, if you have a loser pay small claims system, then the loser pays your costs. They get submitted to the court in your motion for a Final Judgment and the court audits and approves them. If you sue in a higher court, unless there is allegation proven which provides for costs, then they are on each party. That's why I think small claims is the way to go with a Kalifornia lawyer, imho. >>
In most states, small claims=no lawyers. Suing corps. in general is gonna get the case out of small claims from the get go. Damages most likely will not include travel costs or lost wages, hurt feelings etc.
I haven't read this entire thread but have you tried to contact PP's office of counsel or executive offices (assuming it's possible)? In other words, go around their claims dept. to executive managament, etc.?
Given the existence of that arbitration clause in their contract with you it foreshadows litigation just to establish jurisdiction (notwithstanding whatever you found for free on the web). You might save yourself a lot of time and money by rattling some executive cages (esp. the legal dept.) first.
I doubt they're going to be all that interested in litigating a $1K claim. Just a thought...
Rufus T. Firefly: How would you like a job in the mint?
Chicolini: Mint? No, no, I no like a mint. Uh - what other flavor you got?
You made a fundamental error when you agreed to do this transaction outside of the eBay system.
Do you have any way of finding out if the "buyer" of the coin has pulled this same stunt with other sellers? Have you contacted the buyer's local police department to see if any other complaints have been filed against him?
I think you are making a mistake by going the litigation route. I doubt that you will ever collect a dime, even if you win.
I hate to say this but I left the EB-PP system less than 8 weeks after I enrolled. They left such a bad taste (they owed me approximately 2K from all my transactions) that I was tempted to let go, just to cut my losses and gain peace of mind. I sent PP a final letter saying that I would contact the AG's office in all 48 states and send them reports on their practices. I was serious and they must have figured that it would be more trouble to deal with 48 lawyers than one customer. I did get my money and immediately closed all business with them. IMHO they are low class!
You should consider reporting the customer to the AG's office in his/her state of residence. Many of these report forms are available online.
<< <i>The only problem with my suing in Kally, eBaytrader, is the little issue of my attending the trial to testify. I'd have to fly out there from Maryland, stay over, and then fly back. Probably not worth it for a $1,068 case. >>
Generally fraud, or civil conspiracy to commit fraud, confers jurisdiction in the state where harm caused by the fraud occurred. Just my two cents. Maryland law may say otherwise.
"It's not that the Irish are cynical. It's simply that they have a wonderful lack of respect for everything and everybody." - Brendan Behan
Proud Participant in Operation "Stone Holey" August 7, 2008
Your cliams in this controversy are not yet ripe for litigation.
At this moment, all of your financial damages are prospective. PayPal is working with AMEX to resolve the issue; when that process is completed and does NOT satisfy your interests, you should sue.
Many states prohibit corporate defendants from moving a small-claims action to regular claims. Defendants are allowed to be represented by counsel in small claims.
Your lawyer should try to find a Federal issue and file in the Federal District where you reside. It is ALOT easier and will result in a near instant settlement of your claim. (There may be a Federal issue to be found inside the 2003/05 Consent Decree(s) entered into by PP. AMEX may also have some kind of previous settlements that hold such an issue.)
PP/AMEX/EBAY will raise their standard "Unclean Hands" defense. They will claim you violated EBAY's TOS in an effort to "deprive EBAY of fees;" and, that your losses are, in part, a direct result of your bad acts.
Your "customer" appears to be a conster. He buys commodity items and immediately converts them to cash. He is likely gone with the wind.
A few phone calls and letters from your lawyer to the legal-affairs boys at PP might quickly resolve the problem. In any event, until PP fails in its good-faith efforts to "fight the chargeback on your behalf," your claim is far from ripe.
Patience is good.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Not to cast any more gloom and doom over this, but you might want to ask your attorney about how California law can make a small claims defendant pay if he loses the case.
We won a small claims judgement against a former landlord here in Austin, TX several years ago, and he still has not paid us, despite the fact that the judge awarded interest compounded annually to the final amount. A few months following the judgement, we contacted the court, and were told the most we could do is file an 'Abstract of Judgement' against the defendant (which we did). This places a lein against any property they own in the county (i.e. the house we rented from him) that will need to be resolved when the property is sold. Also, the judgment expires in 10 years, so if he waits it out, he owes us nothing...
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
<< <i>Also, the judgment expires in 10 years, so if he waits it out, he owes us nothing... >>
I'd guess it can be renewed.
If it's a good amount of money, there are lawyers that will collect for you or, if you want the money now, buy the judgment from you at a deep discount and collect it for themselves
"Also, the judgment expires in 10 years, so if he waits it out, he owes us nothing..."
/////////////////////////////
Renewable in ten-year increments.
In TX, some personal property is fair game. You might be able to grab an automobile or two, if you get a lawyer to help. If the debtor is a known bad guy, the judge might give your lawyer an award for "cost of collection," if the same is not statutory.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Not sure I agree with you that my damages are "prospective". The money has been removed from my account. Had PP and/or AMEX merely threatened to remove the funds, I'd be inclined to agree; but once they actually REMOVED the money, they created a judiciable controversy. The fact that PP and/or AMEX is still "investigating" is irrelevant, I believe, just as if I had taken your money and was still deciding whether or not to give it back.
Small claims actions in Maryland can't be moved out of small claims unless there is more than $10k involved (which there isn't).
We talked about filing in federal court and the answer was a strong "NO WAY." According to my counsel, the United States District Court in Maryland is extremely pro-corporation; state trial courts here, however, tend toward being consumer-oriented. So this much I know: if I keep my lawyer (and I will), we'll be in state court.
I have no worries about the unclean hands doctrine. It apparently can only be invoked when the "unclean" actions caused harm to another party to the suit (in this case they don't; eBay isn't invovled at all in my suit) or if any laws were broken (they weren't).
One of the folks on this board (he can identify himself if he wishes; not sure he wants his name published here) took it upon himself and did some research on Mr. Lee (the buyer) and determined that the place where he lives (lived?) in Los Gatos is now up for sale. I also spoke with another seller on this board who had previous dealings with the buyer and did not have any problem with him (yet, I guess). So while I may have some suspicions about the buyer, I have no hard evidence at the moment that he did anything improper.
But the bottom line is we absolutely agree: my attorney will definitely discuss the matter (or try to) with PP's legal department (if we can find a number for them -- anybody got one?) before suit is filed. Before he makes that call, we are trying to make sure there are no angles that we have not thoroughly researched. He wants to be as well prepared for that call as possible and my goal is to do everything I can to help him be prepared.
I have also been contacted by a detective -- a CU member -- who has kindly offered his services (I'm holding off on that for the moment). I know I've said this before, but I greatly appreciate all of the help. I knew that this board could be a good resource -- I just didn't appreciate how good until now.
<< <i>"Any and all insights from the CU masses during this process are very welcome and strongly encouraged!"
Your cliams in this controversy are not yet ripe for litigation.
At this moment, all of your financial damages are prospective. PayPal is working with AMEX to resolve the issue; when that process is completed and does NOT satisfy your interests, you should sue.
Many states prohibit corporate defendants from moving a small-claims action to regular claims. Defendants are allowed to be represented by counsel in small claims.
Your lawyer should try to find a Federal issue and file in the Federal District where you reside. It is ALOT easier and will result in a near instant settlement of your claim. (There may be a Federal issue to be found inside the 2003/05 Consent Decree(s) entered into by PP. AMEX may also have some kind of previous settlements that hold such an issue.)
PP/AMEX/EBAY will raise their standard "Unclean Hands" defense. They will claim you violated EBAY's TOS in an effort to "deprive EBAY of fees;" and, that your losses are, in part, a direct result of your bad acts.
Your "customer" appears to be a conster. He buys commodity items and immediately converts them to cash. He is likely gone with the wind.
A few phone calls and letters from your lawyer to the legal-affairs boys at PP might quickly resolve the problem. In any event, until PP fails in its good-faith efforts to "fight the chargeback on your behalf," your claim is far from ripe.
Patience is good. >>
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
<< <i>You made a fundamental error when you agreed to do this transaction outside of the eBay system. >>
Not relevant. This is a credit card chargeback based on a (bogus) snad claim. The result, and PayPal's actions, would be the same even if the transaction was processed through eBay.
<< <i>It is a fact that the damages are prospective.
The money is "on hold." No decision has yet been made to result in a loss >>
This is true. However, if one is considering litigation it doesn't hurt to have everything prepared and ready to go when they do, (and they will), snatch the money away.
<< <i>"Not sure I agree with you that my damages are "prospective". The money has been removed from my account. "
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
Our agreement on the matter is not relevant.
It is a fact that the damages are prospective.
The money is "on hold." No decision has yet been made to result in a loss. >>
Doesn't it technically depend on who's holding the money? If it's PP, fine. But if it's now with AMEX, then it's no longer on hold from the sellers standpoint. It's crossed more into the hands of the buyer.
<< <i>But, I think there is better than a 50/50 chance that AMEX will act correctly. >>
If they did, it would be the first time I've ever heard of them doing so. And, I know of many cases where this has happened going back to before PayPal even existed. It's one of the reasons I refuse to accept Amex through my merchant account.
If they did, it would be the first time I've ever heard of them doing so. And, I know of many cases where this has happened going back to before PayPal even existed. It's one of the reasons I refuse to accept Amex through my merchant account.
I can guarantee you with absolute certainty this suit is ripe for adjudication here in Maryland based on the current status of this situation, and that -- under Maryland law at least -- you are wrong. (I thought saying that we disagree was nicer than saying you are wrong.) There may be other problems with my cases against AMEX and PP, but ripeness under the laws that govern litigation in Maryland is absolutely, positively not one of them.
<< <i>
<< <i>"Not sure I agree with you that my damages are "prospective". The money has been removed from my account. "
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
Our agreement on the matter is not relevant.
It is a fact that the damages are prospective.
The money is "on hold." No decision has yet been made to result in a loss. >>
>>
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
It's not what YOU are missing, Early -- it's what *I'M* missing ... and that's more than $1,000.00. And then there's the principle of the thing, which kind of bothers me, too.
I'm not sure what my threshhold is for Fighting the Good Fight, but I can tell you this: whatever my threshhold is, one thousand bucks is over it.
<< <i>"litigation" on a half oz platinum coin?
What am I missing here? >>
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
<< <i>It's not what YOU are missing, Early -- it's what *I'M* missing ... and that's more than $1,000.00. And then there's the principle of the thing, which kind of bothers me, too.
I'm not sure what my threshhold is for Fighting the Good Fight, but I can tell you this: whatever my threshhold is, one thousand bucks is over it.
<< <i>"litigation" on a half oz platinum coin?
What am I missing here? >>
>>
Good luck! Try Chuck Lipcon in Miami. He might work pro bono.
"I can guarantee you with absolute certainty this suit is ripe for adjudication here in Maryland based on the current status of this situation, and that -- under Maryland law at least -- you are wrong. (I thought saying that we disagree was nicer than saying you are wrong.) There may be other problems with my cases against AMEX and PP, but ripeness under the laws that govern litigation in Maryland is absolutely, positively not one of them."
In the jurisdictions of which I am familiar, the claim is NOT ripe.
I have been tossed numerous times in both state and Federal on the issue.
BUT, anybody can sue anybody at ANY time. The defendants in this case, if it was filed before their final decision, would raise the unripe defense. The judge might agree, might not.
A mere "hold" by a financial institution is NOT a taking or a deprivation. The PP TOS - and ALL merchant-account agreements - provide for the process that is now ongoing.
I am on your side. Please do NOT worry about being "nicer." I admit I have a negative opinion of your doing a deal off-EBAY to save fees, BUT that does not give the conster a right to steal from you.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
I have a strong suspicion that your "buyer" is long gone and so is your coin.
Maybe it is time to step back and think about whether the cost of litigation is going to do anything but ending up costing you even more money. If you are lucky, AMEX may eventually give you your money. Do they provide the merchant any protection if a scam is involved?
As long as the "buyer" was the/an authorized user of the card, AMEX is on the hook for legitimate charges made to purchase as-advertised merch.
The fact that the "buyer" may not have paid his AMEX bill, is NOT a consideration by AMEX. Though, if I lost a dispute like the instant one, I would raise that issue in my complaint.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i>"Also, the judgment expires in 10 years, so if he waits it out, he owes us nothing..."
/////////////////////////////
Renewable in ten-year increments.
In TX, some personal property is fair game. You might be able to grab an automobile or two, if you get a lawyer to help. If the debtor is a known bad guy, the judge might give your lawyer an award for "cost of collection," if the same is not statutory. >>
Good to know about the renewal. We already have a lein against the house we were renting from him. We still have over 5 years before we need to worry about renewing the judgement, but my wife and I were talking just the other day about contacting the court to see if there are any other options...meanwhile, the interest keeps accruing...
Sorry- not trying to hijack the thread!
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
LOL - it's cool about the "hijacking". In a way, I sort of view this thread as being about learning how to get the bad guy! As an aside, here in Maryland judgments are good for 12 years and renewable in perpetuity ... but you have to actually file something with the court to renew. Different states have different timeframes, though, so you'd best check with your local Court clerk.
Don't forget: in most places you can also levy on jewelry (including wedding rings -- that's always fun to do) and ... uh ... coin collections! If you get anything good, don't forget to share some hi-res pics with your friends here at CU!
<< <i>
<< <i>"Also, the judgment expires in 10 years, so if he waits it out, he owes us nothing..."
/////////////////////////////
Renewable in ten-year increments.
In TX, some personal property is fair game. You might be able to grab an automobile or two, if you get a lawyer to help. If the debtor is a known bad guy, the judge might give your lawyer an award for "cost of collection," if the same is not statutory. >>
Good to know about the renewal. We already have a lein against the house we were renting from him. We still have over 5 years before we need to worry about renewing the judgement, but my wife and I were talking just the other day about contacting the court to see if there are any other options...meanwhile, the interest keeps accruing...
Sorry- not trying to hijack the thread! >>
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
As long as the "buyer" was the/an authorized user of the card, AMEX is on the hook for legitimate charges made to purchase as-advertised merch.
The fact that the "buyer" may not have paid his AMEX bill, is NOT a consideration by AMEX. Though, if I lost a dispute like the instant one, I would raise that issue in my complaint. >>
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
Not to hijack the thread either, but I got an email through ebay from another seller who got scammed by the same guy I did. Basically, the buyer wants to review any and all purchases made on ebay, even if raw. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not an approval service. Bid accordingly. In my case, the buyer claimed the coin significantly not as described. He put the coin back in the mail and filed a dispute with PP. I get to the PO and have a notice and sign for a package (a normal occurance if I'm getting anything) but I never get to look at the package before I sign. It's the coin. PP instantly sided in the buyer's favor saying that they have full right of return and he had proof of my receipt.
Anyway, getting back to the email I got from this other seller, the buyer is doing the same thing to him, but this seller keeps refusing the package. Buyer filed dispute and PP sided in favor of the seller. The buyer is threatening to go to his credit card company and file a chargeback. It'll be interesting to see what happens in this case. The seller has said that he'll keep me informed.
<< <i>Also, the judgment expires in 10 years, so if he waits it out, he owes us nothing... >>
I'd guess it can be renewed.
If it's a good amount of money, there are lawyers that will collect for you or, if you want the money now, buy the judgment from you at a deep discount and collect it for themselves >>
cmerlo1 , Sir,.
In Indiana when we get judgment and apply a property lien we can do one or the other of four things. 1. We can let the judgement ride.. which kills his future/present credit. Minimum negative will carry 5 years AFTER settlement. 2. Force a equity loan against property if primary residence of the defendant 3. Force a judgement sale of property to settle. 4. Have a court ordered siezure and surrender of property in lieu of cash if property is NOT defendants primary residence.
Of course some conditions must be met. The court cost can be horrific.
It IS, of course, much easier to get a mechanics lien, grab his car and sell it.
Personally, I hope that you hose the "buyer" back.
If the CC company or PP allow the activities of the scammers to prevail, I hope that you hose them in turn.
And Tom, as far as the above goes, I would spend 10K to win on a 1K case - mostly because I can afford to. Sadly, all too often standing behind ones' principles come with a cost these days.
<< <i>But, I think there is better than a 50/50 chance that AMEX will act correctly. >>
If they did, it would be the first time I've ever heard of them doing so. And, I know of many cases where this has happened going back to before PayPal even existed. It's one of the reasons I refuse to accept Amex through my merchant account.
Russ, NCNE >>
Does that sound like an opportunity for a class action suit against AMEX?
Okay, I know today is 6/27 and not 6/11. But it was on 6/11 that I received the good news: AMEX had resolved the underlying chargeback dispute in my favor, and PayPal returned most of my money to me. (PayPal kept $10 for its "dispute resolution fee," but I got the rest back.)
Based equally on (1) the fine advice provided by various folks in this forum (THANKS TO ALL WHO PROVIDED ADVICE! I know I played a few games of Devil's Advocate as I tried to sort out what to do, and I GREATLY appreciate the folks who stuck with the story and voiced their opinions), and (2) my desire to avoid the headaches of litigation (the costs didn't bother me that much), I eventually opted to drink a case or two of beer (which is easy for me to do), relax (which is VERY hard for me to do!), and see where the process would take me. Turned out, at least in this case, that was the way to go.
What I come away with from this experience:
1. AMEX took 78 days to resolve this (AMEX had said that it would take 75 days at most), it held my money that entire time in A NON-INTEREST BEARING ACCOUNT, and AMEX refused to take information from me directly (I *sort of* understand why AMEX would not want to PROVIDE me with with information, but I still have no idea why it would not TAKE information from me).
2. PAYPAL never documented to me what information it provided to AMEX on my behalf, never told me what information it received from AMEX (if any) so that I could respond to it, and despite my requests PayPal never pointed to any portion of the agreement that entitled it to keep $10 of my money.
3. I still have no idea what the skumbag customer was claiming was wrong with the coin. I hope he rots in hell.
WHEW!
Thanks again to all, Doug / FESTIVUS MAXIMUS
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
<< <i>2. PAYPAL never documented to me what information it provided to AMEX on my behalf, never told me what information it received from AMEX (if any) so that I could respond to it, and despite my requests PayPal never pointed to any portion of the agreement that entitled it to keep $10 of my money. >>
I'm shocked.
Not really but I do remember reading something about a fee for dispute resolution.
Glad you were able to recover most of your money. I've heard on more than one occasion that PayPal doesn't usually dispute a charge back with a CC company (i've heard this about a number of processors - afterall, it's your money on the line, not theirs).
Comments
<< <i>Are you saying that the loser would have to pay my travel expenses? If that's true, that would be great (and also, surprising). Do you (or anybody else out in CU-land) happen to have a link to some official document that says that?
>>
My understanding, as limited as it may be, is that, if you have a loser pay small claims system, then the loser pays your costs. They get submitted to the court in your motion for a Final Judgment and the court audits and approves them. If you sue in a higher court, unless there is allegation proven which provides for costs, then they are on each party. That's why I think small claims is the way to go with a Kalifornia lawyer, imho.
<< <i>
<< <i>Are you saying that the loser would have to pay my travel expenses? If that's true, that would be great (and also, surprising). Do you (or anybody else out in CU-land) happen to have a link to some official document that says that?
>>
My understanding, as limited as it may be, is that, if you have a loser pay small claims system, then the loser pays your costs. They get submitted to the court in your motion for a Final Judgment and the court audits and approves them. If you sue in a higher court, unless there is allegation proven which provides for costs, then they are on each party. That's why I think small claims is the way to go with a Kalifornia lawyer, imho. >>
So who would be the loser, Frank Lee or AMEX? Methinks that one would never collect a judgement from Frank Lee.
<< <i>
<< <i>Are you saying that the loser would have to pay my travel expenses? If that's true, that would be great (and also, surprising). Do you (or anybody else out in CU-land) happen to have a link to some official document that says that?
>>
My understanding, as limited as it may be, is that, if you have a loser pay small claims system, then the loser pays your costs. They get submitted to the court in your motion for a Final Judgment and the court audits and approves them. If you sue in a higher court, unless there is allegation proven which provides for costs, then they are on each party. That's why I think small claims is the way to go with a Kalifornia lawyer, imho. >>
In most states, small claims=no lawyers. Suing corps. in general is gonna get the case out of small claims from the get go. Damages most likely will not include travel costs or lost wages, hurt feelings etc.
Given the existence of that arbitration clause in their contract with you it foreshadows litigation just to establish jurisdiction (notwithstanding whatever you found for free on the web). You might save yourself a lot of time and money by rattling some executive cages (esp. the legal dept.) first.
I doubt they're going to be all that interested in litigating a $1K claim. Just a thought...
Chicolini: Mint? No, no, I no like a mint. Uh - what other flavor you got?
Do you have any way of finding out if the "buyer" of the coin has pulled this same stunt with other sellers? Have you contacted the buyer's local police department to see if any other complaints have been filed against him?
I think you are making a mistake by going the litigation route. I doubt that you will ever collect a dime, even if you win.
such a bad taste (they owed me approximately 2K from all my transactions) that I was
tempted to let go, just to cut my losses and gain peace of mind. I sent PP a final letter
saying that I would contact the AG's office in all 48 states and send them reports on their
practices. I was serious and they must have figured that it would be more trouble to
deal with 48 lawyers than one customer. I did get my money and immediately closed
all business with them. IMHO they are low class!
You should consider reporting the customer to the AG's office in his/her state of residence.
Many of these report forms are available online.
<< <i>The only problem with my suing in Kally, eBaytrader, is the little issue of my attending the trial to testify. I'd have to fly out there from Maryland, stay over, and then fly back. Probably not worth it for a $1,068 case.
Generally fraud, or civil conspiracy to commit fraud, confers jurisdiction in the state where harm caused by the fraud occurred. Just my two cents. Maryland law may say otherwise.
Proud Participant in Operation "Stone Holey" August 7, 2008
http://www.amazon.com/How-I-Sued-PayPal-Won/dp/1412094321/
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Your cliams in this controversy are not yet ripe for litigation.
At this moment, all of your financial damages are prospective.
PayPal is working with AMEX to resolve the issue; when that
process is completed and does NOT satisfy your interests, you
should sue.
Many states prohibit corporate defendants from moving a
small-claims action to regular claims. Defendants are allowed
to be represented by counsel in small claims.
Your lawyer should try to find a Federal issue and file in the
Federal District where you reside. It is ALOT easier and will
result in a near instant settlement of your claim. (There may
be a Federal issue to be found inside the 2003/05 Consent
Decree(s) entered into by PP. AMEX may also have some kind
of previous settlements that hold such an issue.)
PP/AMEX/EBAY will raise their standard "Unclean Hands" defense.
They will claim you violated EBAY's TOS in an effort to "deprive
EBAY of fees;" and, that your losses are, in part, a direct result of
your bad acts.
Your "customer" appears to be a conster. He buys commodity
items and immediately converts them to cash. He is likely gone
with the wind.
A few phone calls and letters from your lawyer to the legal-affairs
boys at PP might quickly resolve the problem. In any event, until
PP fails in its good-faith efforts to "fight the chargeback on your
behalf," your claim is far from ripe.
Patience is good.
We won a small claims judgement against a former landlord here in Austin, TX several years ago, and he still has not paid us, despite the fact that the judge awarded interest compounded annually to the final amount. A few months following the judgement, we contacted the court, and were told the most we could do is file an 'Abstract of Judgement' against the defendant (which we did). This places a lein against any property they own in the county (i.e. the house we rented from him) that will need to be resolved when the property is sold. Also, the judgment expires in 10 years, so if he waits it out, he owes us nothing...
<< <i>Also, the judgment expires in 10 years, so if he waits it out, he owes us nothing... >>
I'd guess it can be renewed.
If it's a good amount of money, there are lawyers that will collect for you or, if you want the money now, buy the judgment from you at a deep discount and collect it for themselves
/////////////////////////////
Renewable in ten-year increments.
In TX, some personal property is fair game. You might be able
to grab an automobile or two, if you get a lawyer to help. If
the debtor is a known bad guy, the judge might give your
lawyer an award for "cost of collection," if the same is not
statutory.
Small claims actions in Maryland can't be moved out of small claims unless there is more than $10k involved (which there isn't).
We talked about filing in federal court and the answer was a strong "NO WAY." According to my counsel, the United States District Court in Maryland is extremely pro-corporation; state trial courts here, however, tend toward being consumer-oriented. So this much I know: if I keep my lawyer (and I will), we'll be in state court.
I have no worries about the unclean hands doctrine. It apparently can only be invoked when the "unclean" actions caused harm to another party to the suit (in this case they don't; eBay isn't invovled at all in my suit) or if any laws were broken (they weren't).
One of the folks on this board (he can identify himself if he wishes; not sure he wants his name published here) took it upon himself and did some research on Mr. Lee (the buyer) and determined that the place where he lives (lived?) in Los Gatos is now up for sale. I also spoke with another seller on this board who had previous dealings with the buyer and did not have any problem with him (yet, I guess). So while I may have some suspicions about the buyer, I have no hard evidence at the moment that he did anything improper.
But the bottom line is we absolutely agree: my attorney will definitely discuss the matter (or try to) with PP's legal department (if we can find a number for them -- anybody got one?) before suit is filed. Before he makes that call, we are trying to make sure there are no angles that we have not thoroughly researched. He wants to be as well prepared for that call as possible and my goal is to do everything I can to help him be prepared.
I have also been contacted by a detective -- a CU member -- who has kindly offered his services (I'm holding off on that for the moment). I know I've said this before, but I greatly appreciate all of the help. I knew that this board could be a good resource -- I just didn't appreciate how good until now.
<< <i>"Any and all insights from the CU masses during this process are very welcome and strongly encouraged!"
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Your cliams in this controversy are not yet ripe for litigation.
At this moment, all of your financial damages are prospective.
PayPal is working with AMEX to resolve the issue; when that
process is completed and does NOT satisfy your interests, you
should sue.
Many states prohibit corporate defendants from moving a
small-claims action to regular claims. Defendants are allowed
to be represented by counsel in small claims.
Your lawyer should try to find a Federal issue and file in the
Federal District where you reside. It is ALOT easier and will
result in a near instant settlement of your claim. (There may
be a Federal issue to be found inside the 2003/05 Consent
Decree(s) entered into by PP. AMEX may also have some kind
of previous settlements that hold such an issue.)
PP/AMEX/EBAY will raise their standard "Unclean Hands" defense.
They will claim you violated EBAY's TOS in an effort to "deprive
EBAY of fees;" and, that your losses are, in part, a direct result of
your bad acts.
Your "customer" appears to be a conster. He buys commodity
items and immediately converts them to cash. He is likely gone
with the wind.
A few phone calls and letters from your lawyer to the legal-affairs
boys at PP might quickly resolve the problem. In any event, until
PP fails in its good-faith efforts to "fight the chargeback on your
behalf," your claim is far from ripe.
Patience is good. >>
Please visit our eBay store:
FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback)
** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
<< <i>You made a fundamental error when you agreed to do this transaction outside of the eBay system. >>
Not relevant. This is a credit card chargeback based on a (bogus) snad claim. The result, and PayPal's actions, would be the same even if the transaction was processed through eBay.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I can see the Airing of Grievances is well underway. I'm wondering though- did I miss the Feats of Strength, or will that be later?
BWWUAUAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAA
Love that episode. Definitely top 5.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
Our agreement on the matter is not relevant.
It is a fact that the damages are prospective.
The money is "on hold." No decision has yet been made to result in a loss.
<< <i>It is a fact that the damages are prospective.
The money is "on hold." No decision has yet been made to result in a loss >>
This is true. However, if one is considering litigation it doesn't hurt to have everything prepared and ready to go when they do, (and they will), snatch the money away.
Russ, NCNE
/////////////////////////////////////
TOTALLY agree.
But, I think there is better than a 50/50 chance that AMEX will act correctly.
<< <i>"Not sure I agree with you that my damages are "prospective". The money has been removed from my account. "
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
Our agreement on the matter is not relevant.
It is a fact that the damages are prospective.
The money is "on hold." No decision has yet been made to result in a loss. >>
Doesn't it technically depend on who's holding the money? If it's PP, fine. But if it's now with AMEX, then it's no longer on hold from the sellers standpoint. It's crossed more into the hands of the buyer.
///////////////////////////////////
Nope.
Until the "buyer" gets the charge reversed, the money is still in the holding pot.
<< <i>But, I think there is better than a 50/50 chance that AMEX will act correctly. >>
If they did, it would be the first time I've ever heard of them doing so. And, I know of many cases where this has happened going back to before PayPal even existed. It's one of the reasons I refuse to accept Amex through my merchant account.
Russ, NCNE
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
As I previously noted, I have "personal" experience on both sides.
As a merchant, I have lost/won disputes.
As a consumer, I have lost/won disputes.
Could go either way.
AMEX is more notorious for going with the cardholder, than are
the other card cos.
<< <i>
<< <i>"Not sure I agree with you that my damages are "prospective". The money has been removed from my account. "
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
Our agreement on the matter is not relevant.
It is a fact that the damages are prospective.
The money is "on hold." No decision has yet been made to result in a loss. >>
>>
Please visit our eBay store:
FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback)
** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
What am I missing here?
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I'm not sure what my threshhold is for Fighting the Good Fight, but I can tell you this: whatever my threshhold is, one thousand bucks is over it.
<< <i>"litigation" on a half oz platinum coin?
What am I missing here? >>
Please visit our eBay store:
FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback)
** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
<< <i>It's not what YOU are missing, Early -- it's what *I'M* missing ... and that's more than $1,000.00. And then there's the principle of the thing, which kind of bothers me, too.
I'm not sure what my threshhold is for Fighting the Good Fight, but I can tell you this: whatever my threshhold is, one thousand bucks is over it.
<< <i>"litigation" on a half oz platinum coin?
What am I missing here? >>
>>
Good luck! Try Chuck Lipcon in Miami. He might work pro bono.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
In the jurisdictions of which I am familiar, the claim is NOT ripe.
I have been tossed numerous times in both state and Federal
on the issue.
BUT, anybody can sue anybody at ANY time. The defendants
in this case, if it was filed before their final decision, would
raise the unripe defense. The judge might agree, might not.
A mere "hold" by a financial institution is NOT a taking or a
deprivation. The PP TOS - and ALL merchant-account agreements -
provide for the process that is now ongoing.
I am on your side. Please do NOT worry about being "nicer." I
admit I have a negative opinion of your doing a deal off-EBAY
to save fees, BUT that does not give the conster a right to steal
from you.
//////////////////////////////////////
Ditto!!!!
I have both sued and been sued for much less.
Maybe it is time to step back and think about whether the cost of litigation is going to do anything but ending up costing you even more money. If you are lucky, AMEX may eventually give you your money. Do they provide the merchant any protection if a scam is involved?
///////////////////////////////////////////////////
As long as the "buyer" was the/an authorized user of the card,
AMEX is on the hook for legitimate charges made to purchase
as-advertised merch.
The fact that the "buyer" may not have paid his AMEX bill, is NOT
a consideration by AMEX. Though, if I lost a dispute like the instant
one, I would raise that issue in my complaint.
<< <i>"Also, the judgment expires in 10 years, so if he waits it out, he owes us nothing..."
/////////////////////////////
Renewable in ten-year increments.
In TX, some personal property is fair game. You might be able
to grab an automobile or two, if you get a lawyer to help. If
the debtor is a known bad guy, the judge might give your
lawyer an award for "cost of collection," if the same is not
statutory. >>
Good to know about the renewal. We already have a lein against the house we were renting from him. We still have over 5 years before we need to worry about renewing the judgement, but my wife and I were talking just the other day about contacting the court to see if there are any other options...meanwhile, the interest keeps accruing...
Sorry- not trying to hijack the thread!
PM sent.
Please visit our eBay store:
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** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
As an aside, here in Maryland judgments are good for 12 years and renewable in perpetuity ... but you have to actually file something with the court to renew. Different states have different timeframes, though, so you'd best check with your local Court clerk.
Don't forget: in most places you can also levy on jewelry (including wedding rings -- that's always fun to do) and ... uh ... coin collections! If you get anything good, don't forget to share some hi-res pics with your friends here at CU!
<< <i>
<< <i>"Also, the judgment expires in 10 years, so if he waits it out, he owes us nothing..."
/////////////////////////////
Renewable in ten-year increments.
In TX, some personal property is fair game. You might be able
to grab an automobile or two, if you get a lawyer to help. If
the debtor is a known bad guy, the judge might give your
lawyer an award for "cost of collection," if the same is not
statutory. >>
Good to know about the renewal. We already have a lein against the house we were renting from him. We still have over 5 years before we need to worry about renewing the judgement, but my wife and I were talking just the other day about contacting the court to see if there are any other options...meanwhile, the interest keeps accruing...
Sorry- not trying to hijack the thread! >>
Please visit our eBay store:
FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback)
** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
<< <i>"Do they provide the merchant any protection if a scam is involved? "
///////////////////////////////////////////////////
As long as the "buyer" was the/an authorized user of the card,
AMEX is on the hook for legitimate charges made to purchase
as-advertised merch.
The fact that the "buyer" may not have paid his AMEX bill, is NOT
a consideration by AMEX. Though, if I lost a dispute like the instant
one, I would raise that issue in my complaint. >>
Please visit our eBay store:
FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback)
** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
Just another reason I don't keep any $ in my PayPal account and I have my PayPal account linked to a bank account I closed 5 years ago.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Anyway, getting back to the email I got from this other seller, the buyer is doing the same thing to him, but this seller keeps refusing the package. Buyer filed dispute and PP sided in favor of the seller. The buyer is threatening to go to his credit card company and file a chargeback. It'll be interesting to see what happens in this case. The seller has said that he'll keep me informed.
<< <i>
<< <i>Also, the judgment expires in 10 years, so if he waits it out, he owes us nothing... >>
I'd guess it can be renewed.
If it's a good amount of money, there are lawyers that will collect for you or, if you want the money now, buy the judgment from you at a deep discount and collect it for themselves >>
cmerlo1 , Sir,.
In Indiana when we get judgment and apply a property lien we can do one or the other of four things.
1. We can let the judgement ride.. which kills his future/present credit. Minimum negative will carry 5 years AFTER settlement.
2. Force a equity loan against property if primary residence of the defendant
3. Force a judgement sale of property to settle.
4. Have a court ordered siezure and surrender of property in lieu of cash if property is NOT defendants primary residence.
Of course some conditions must be met. The court cost can be horrific.
It IS, of course, much easier to get a mechanics lien, grab his car and sell it.
Look at it like a forced tax sale.
<< <i>"litigation" on a half oz platinum coin?
What am I missing here? >>
Personally, I hope that you hose the "buyer" back.
If the CC company or PP allow the activities of the scammers to prevail, I hope that you hose them in turn.
And Tom, as far as the above goes, I would spend 10K to win on a 1K case - mostly because I can afford to. Sadly, all too often standing behind ones' principles come with a cost these days.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
<< <i>But, I think there is better than a 50/50 chance that AMEX will act correctly. >>
If they did, it would be the first time I've ever heard of them doing so. And, I know of many cases where this has happened going back to before PayPal even existed. It's one of the reasons I refuse to accept Amex through my merchant account.
Russ, NCNE >>
Does that sound like an opportunity for a class action suit against AMEX?
Based equally on (1) the fine advice provided by various folks in this forum (THANKS TO ALL WHO PROVIDED ADVICE! I know I played a few games of Devil's Advocate as I tried to sort out what to do, and I GREATLY appreciate the folks who stuck with the story and voiced their opinions), and (2) my desire to avoid the headaches of litigation (the costs didn't bother me that much), I eventually opted to drink a case or two of beer (which is easy for me to do), relax (which is VERY hard for me to do!), and see where the process would take me. Turned out, at least in this case, that was the way to go.
What I come away with from this experience:
1. AMEX took 78 days to resolve this (AMEX had said that it would take 75 days at most), it held my money that entire time in A NON-INTEREST BEARING ACCOUNT, and AMEX refused to take information from me directly (I *sort of* understand why AMEX would not want to PROVIDE me with with information, but I still have no idea why it would not TAKE information from me).
2. PAYPAL never documented to me what information it provided to AMEX on my behalf, never told me what information it received from AMEX (if any) so that I could respond to it, and despite my requests PayPal never pointed to any portion of the agreement that entitled it to keep $10 of my money.
3. I still have no idea what the skumbag customer was claiming was wrong with the coin. I hope he rots in hell.
WHEW!
Thanks again to all,
Doug / FESTIVUS MAXIMUS
Please visit our eBay store:
FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback)
** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
<< <i>2. PAYPAL never documented to me what information it provided to AMEX on my behalf, never told me what information it received from AMEX (if any) so that I could respond to it, and despite my requests PayPal never pointed to any portion of the agreement that entitled it to keep $10 of my money. >>
I'm shocked.
Not really but I do remember reading something about a fee for dispute resolution.
Glad you were able to recover most of your money. I've heard on more than one occasion that PayPal doesn't usually dispute a charge back with a CC company (i've heard this about a number of processors - afterall, it's your money on the line, not theirs).