Seriously, though- why would anyone think AMEX would be expected to? You don't have a merchant account with AMEX, do you? You didn't process a charge against your buyer's AMEX cc, did you? PayPal did that, didn't they?
Seriously, though- why would anyone think AMEX would be expected to? You don't have a merchant account with AMEX, do you? You didn't process a charge against your buyer's AMEX cc, did you? PayPal did that, didn't they? >>
Correct, since the transaction occured through PayPal, they are the link between the buyers credit card company and the merchant. They will gather documentation from both parties involved and forward it to the card issuer who makes a determination as to the validity of the buyers claim.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
Find a decent lawyer and explain what you want him/her to do and that is to write a very scary letter to PayPal, AMEX and the buyer threatening a lawsuit. You have to remember that for any of these entities to even react to a lawsuit, justified or not, will cost WAY over $1000. Try around 5K. Business is business so they can all chip in 5K (15K) to fight over a 1K deal or someone with sense will settle. It shouldn't cost you more than $150-300. Ouch! Blood suckers aren't cheap but a $700 recoup is better than a 1K loss. Make sure you make the blood sucker, I mean lawyer get mean enough. They are usually scared of sanctions so they are a little wimpy. Just remember, they work for you!
<< <i>Find a decent lawyer and explain what you want him/her to do and that is to write a very scary letter to PayPal, AMEX and the buyer threatening a lawsuit. You have to remember that for any of these entities to even react to a lawsuit, justified or not, will cost WAY over $1000. Try around 5K. Business is business so they can all chip in 5K (15K) to fight over a 1K deal or someone with sense will settle. It shouldn't cost you more than $150-300. Ouch! Blood suckers aren't cheap but a $700 recoup is better than a 1K loss. Make sure you make the blood sucker, I mean lawyer get mean enough. They are usually scared of sanctions so they are a little wimpy. Just remember, they work for you! >>
Not bad advice. Make sure you send every document needed to paypal concerning the dispute.. I would do it certified to show proof it was done. Perhaps if you cannot get anywhere with them one of us can step up for you and give you a hand drafting a letter.
A lot of people here help out in a lot of different ways whether just your normal run of the mill numismatic info posts, condolences on a loss of a son, daughter, mother, father or grandparent. Others go out of their way to help out in different ways. I know Frank's family is grateful.
I know we have a few lawyers on the board that may be able to draft up a letter for you without a fee. Just a thread showing appreciation and perhaps a good resolution. This might give the rest of us that are threatened by the same thing possibly happening a little faith.
Correct-a-mundo (as the Fonz would say) on all points!
I do not have a merchant account with AMEX; I'm probably like most people of these boards. I have a full-time job, collect coins and buy/sell others part-time to help pay for the hobby (and help pay for the kids' schooling, etc.). I didn't process a direct charge on the Buyer's AMEX CC -- PayPal did that (which is why I was frustrated that PayPal would not verify what, if any, of my documentation they forwarded to AMEX). And, as I stated a bunch of times here, AMEX told me that they were never going to contact me.
It's just that there are a few folks here who seem (my impression) to want to blame the victim and who tend toward condescending in their posts ("You don't understand chargebacks", "AMEX *WILL* contact you", "It's called due process") -- which is to be expected, I guess, when dealing with a large group of experienced folks. I do my best to be respectful towards those I disagree with (I'm not always successful, but I do try), but in this case, at least, I feel the PayPal/Amex apologists are plain wrong (at least in HMO): AMEX will never contact me, and -- if my money is going to be taken from me and PayPal is going to deny Seller Protection coverage -- I still strongly feel that I deserve some type of meaningful explanation and proof from SOMEBODY which (to date at least) has not been forthcoming. I'm not optimistic about getting that, either.
However, I am convinced that the only way I get my money back is to put respectful pressure on AMEX and PayPal, and even then I'm not particularly optimistic. I have now have legal counsel working on the case. We'll see what happens.
<< <i>
<< <i>I "will" be contacted by AMEX, huh? >>
Don't hold your breath on that one...
Seriously, though- why would anyone think AMEX would be expected to? You don't have a merchant account with AMEX, do you? You didn't process a charge against your buyer's AMEX cc, did you? PayPal did that, didn't they? >>
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Thanks, Seated. I appreciate the support. I've gotten a lot of good advice over these boards the last couple years (I spent about 2 years lurking), and a bunch in this thread alone.
I'll take any assistance that's offered (there's a lot of experience represented on this board and -- if you'll forgive the phrasing -- I'm more than happy to "mine the gold" of all of your insights), but I do have a lawyer working on the case now. It'll probably end up costing me more than the coin is worth, but I don't care. Lord knows that I have many weak spots in my personality, and one of the biggest is my Napolean Complex; if I feel that I'm being taken advantage of by Big Dogs because I'm preceived as the "little guy", it tends to arouse my fighting instincts multiplied by 10. Every so often I feel that I have an obligation to make a point for the little guy no matter what it costs, and this (unfortunately) has become one of those cases.
<< <i>Not bad advice. Make sure you send every document needed to paypal concerning the dispute.. I would do it certified to show proof it was done. Perhaps if you cannot get anywhere with them one of us can step up for you and give you a hand drafting a letter.
A lot of people here help out in a lot of different ways whether just your normal run of the mill numismatic info posts, condolences on a loss of a son, daughter, mother, father or grandparent. Others go out of their way to help out in different ways. I know Frank's family is grateful.
I know we have a few lawyers on the board that may be able to draft up a letter for you without a fee. Just a thread showing appreciation and perhaps a good resolution. This might give the rest of us that are threatened by the same thing possibly happening a little faith. >>
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Suppose one sells a coin like was done here, collects thru PP but has a NO RETURNS on slabbed coins. Buyer asks if seller will make an exception and seller says NO WAY. Buyer then returns the coin anyway, with proof that seller signed for and received it [well at least the package]. As seller what would you do, refund his money or make him collect thru a chargeback?
<< <i>You seem a bit impatient; your case is just one of thousands that they have to process. >>
I believe the OP's self-admitted Napolean complex is the issue, not the way his case is being handled. The chargeback process and timeframe (60 days) are outlined in the PayPal user agreement (which by accepting PayPal he agreed to) and chargeback guide.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
Not that I'm a BIG FAN of PP, but this is a PITA for them too. The scatbag is Frank Lee unless there is something that we are not being told. Not sure how one would accomplish it, but there really needs to be some sort of DONE DEAL thing that would come into play situations like these.
Not that I'm a BIG FAN of PP, but this is a PITA for them too. The scatbag is Frank Lee unless there is something that we are not being told. Not sure how one would accomplish it, but there really needs to be some sort of DONE DEAL thing that would come into play situations like these. >>
The process is designed to protect the rights of the parties involved while the case is under review and reach an objective determination regarding the merits of the dispute, which can only be reached after carefully revewing the facts presented by parties involved. Something which can not occur in an open forum where only one side of the story is presented.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
My point is that 6 weeks is more than enough time to decide if the item is NSAD. It shouldn't be able to be used as a way for smoeone like the buyer to weasel out of a deal cuz he can't/won't pay his bills.
<< <i>My point is that 6 weeks is more than enough time to decide if the item is NSAD. It shouldn't be able to be used as a way for smoeone like the buyer to weasel out of a deal cuz he can't/won't pay his bills. >>
After the buyers card issuer is contacted they in turn will wait before contacting PayPal which starts the dispute process. As I have stated, as part of the process, the buyer should be asked to obtain a signed statement from a qualified 3rd party supporting the buyers claim the item is not as described in order to determine wether the buyer is mearly trying to back out of the deal.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
<< <i>My point is that 6 weeks is more than enough time to decide if the item is NSAD. It shouldn't be able to be used as a way for smoeone like the buyer to weasel out of a deal cuz he can't/won't pay his bills. >>
After the buyers card issuer is contacted they in turn will wait before contacting PayPal which starts the dispute process. As I have stated, as part of the process, the buyer should be asked to obtain a signed statement from a qualified 3rd party supporting the buyers claim the item is not as described in order to determine wether the buyer is mearly trying to back out of the deal. >>
Could you provide a citation for your post.
I just reviewed a typical merchant's cc agreement and it basically says, "you're at our mercy, bwhahahahaha!".
There is no spelled out process for merchants appealing chargebacks.
<< <i>My point is that 6 weeks is more than enough time to decide if the item is NSAD. It shouldn't be able to be used as a way for smoeone like the buyer to weasel out of a deal cuz he can't/won't pay his bills. >>
After the buyers card issuer is contacted they in turn will wait before contacting PayPal which starts the dispute process. As I have stated, as part of the process, the buyer should be asked to obtain a signed statement from a qualified 3rd party supporting the buyers claim the item is not as described in order to determine wether the buyer is mearly trying to back out of the deal. >>
Could you provide a citation for your post.
I just reviewed a typical merchant's cc agreement and it basically says, "you're at our mercy, bwhahahahaha!".
There is no spelled out process for merchants appealing chargebacks. >>
If you search for 'chargeback guide' on the PayPal site it will provide a number of related guides. Addititional specific guidelines will be presented to the merchant involved in the dispute.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
Find a decent lawyer and explain what you want him/her to do and that is to write a very scary letter to PayPal, AMEX and the buyer threatening a lawsuit. You have to remember that for any of these entities to even react to a lawsuit, justified or not, will cost WAY over $1000. Try around 5K. Business is business so they can all chip in 5K (15K) to fight over a 1K deal or someone with sense will settle. It shouldn't cost you more than $150-300. Ouch! Blood suckers aren't cheap but a $700 recoup is better than a 1K loss. Make sure you make the blood sucker, I mean lawyer get mean enough. They are usually scared of sanctions so they are a little wimpy. Just remember, they work for you! >>
What about small claims court just the two parties involved and the judge. You don't need a lawyer. I would seriously look into it.
You are talking about a 2k loss. The coin and the money are both lost if Paypal favors the buyer. I don't know how small claims court works and if the judge can prosecute criminal charges for theft also.
Sorry for the situation you're in, festivusmaximus. Speaking from experience, chargeback cases DO take a long time. Our biggest one was with Discover, and it took us by complete surprise since we got the letter at least two months after the transaction had occurred. They asked us for all the supporting evidence we could provide, then (as expected) they ruled against us in another couple of weeks. However, the situation was different than yours (we were worse off with what we could provide). I still have hope that you may see this thing through without a loss - it simply takes a long time.
Once it is all over, if unfortunately Paypal/Amex have ruled against you and you have no money and no coin, there is one option I can suggest to you. When we had our large chargeback, we ended up hiring a private investigator who sort of specializes in collections, and does work for coin dealers. We did incur signifcant expense, but once this guy was on the case, we got the coin back. Cost us about 30% of the value of the coin in fees, which I feel is very reasonable (this coin was over $10k). This investigator IS located in California, and while your coin is not a $10k coin, if he lives near this guy or will be traveling through his area, I imagine he'd be more than willing to pay a visit. Most crooks don't expect a guy to show up on their doorstep demanding money. Our PI guy worked with the local police and got the coin back quickly (always helpful to have law enforcement involved, and it's easier for an investigator on site to get the police involved than it is to for you to have to call your local detective and hope he'll call the crook's local detective and then hope that detective does something about it). I noticed the post in this thread from another board member who sent a coin to this guy. If the guy pulls the same scam and gets away with it, perhaps the two of you can call this investigator and see if he'd be interested in taking the case (and find out how much it would cost). If you pool your resources, the cost to recover will reduce and this guy hopefully gets busted.
Anyway, PM me if you'd like the contact information of this investigator. Again, being based in California, perhaps he is nearby and can pay a quick visit for a minimal fee. Or, if he has plans to be passing through the area in the near future, he can plan a visit then.
Either way, good luck to you! I've read the entire thread, and I feel there is still a decent shot you'll get money or coin back. But don't plan on it happening anytime soon.
To clarify: I'm out about $1,068 (plus some change, I think).
I've said this before -- my primary issue isn't the time frame. My issue is that both AMEX and PayPal are refusing -- now and forever -- to provide me with any documented proof of the basis for the buyer's claim and (in PayPal's case) in support of their position that this is a NSAD case (thus taking it outside of PP's Seller Protection Policy). That, and the fact that AMEX will not permit to submit documentation to them directly, nor will PayPal verify what documentation of mine they will forward to AMEX.
As for my being "impatient": Call it what you will -- but if my money has been taken from me, and it isn't being kept in an interest-bearing escrow account pending resolution -- then there is a motivation for AMEX to delay this thing as long as possible, all the while obtaining the use of my money for free. Does that please me? Nope. If that makes me impatient then, you are quite correct, I am impatient.
<< <i>"You seem a bit impatient; your case is just one of thousands that they have to process. "
//////////////////////////////////////////
PP usually gets it done in about a month; sometimes, it takes longer.
Thus far, nothing out of the ordinary is happening here. >>
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Chris, PM sent. Not sure I'll go the PI route, but it is nice to be able to consider that as an option. Thanks for the info. - Doug
<< <i>Sorry for the situation you're in, festivusmaximus. Speaking from experience, chargeback cases DO take a long time. Our biggest one was with Discover, and it took us by complete surprise since we got the letter at least two months after the transaction had occurred. They asked us for all the supporting evidence we could provide, then (as expected) they ruled against us in another couple of weeks. However, the situation was different than yours (we were worse off with what we could provide). I still have hope that you may see this thing through without a loss - it simply takes a long time.
Once it is all over, if unfortunately Paypal/Amex have ruled against you and you have no money and no coin, there is one option I can suggest to you. When we had our large chargeback, we ended up hiring a private investigator who sort of specializes in collections, and does work for coin dealers. We did incur signifcant expense, but once this guy was on the case, we got the coin back. Cost us about 30% of the value of the coin in fees, which I feel is very reasonable (this coin was over $10k). This investigator IS located in California, and while your coin is not a $10k coin, if he lives near this guy or will be traveling through his area, I imagine he'd be more than willing to pay a visit. Most crooks don't expect a guy to show up on their doorstep demanding money. Our PI guy worked with the local police and got the coin back quickly (always helpful to have law enforcement involved, and it's easier for an investigator on site to get the police involved than it is to for you to have to call your local detective and hope he'll call the crook's local detective and then hope that detective does something about it). I noticed the post in this thread from another board member who sent a coin to this guy. If the guy pulls the same scam and gets away with it, perhaps the two of you can call this investigator and see if he'd be interested in taking the case (and find out how much it would cost). If you pool your resources, the cost to recover will reduce and this guy hopefully gets busted.
Anyway, PM me if you'd like the contact information of this investigator. Again, being based in California, perhaps he is nearby and can pay a quick visit for a minimal fee. Or, if he has plans to be passing through the area in the near future, he can plan a visit then.
Either way, good luck to you! I've read the entire thread, and I feel there is still a decent shot you'll get money or coin back. But don't plan on it happening anytime soon.
Chris >>
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Thanks for the info, Mr. PH. It's disappointing but, sadly, not surprising.
<< <i>
<< <i>According to FBH PP and/or AMEX will require that the item be returned before final disbursement of funds is done. >>
According to mrpotatoheadd, final disbursement of funds may be done before the item is returned.
To save time for anyone thinking of typing out a reply which just repeats something posted on PayPal's website, I know this from personal experience. >>
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<< <i>According to FBH PP and/or AMEX will require that the item be returned before final disbursement of funds is done. >>
According to mrpotatoheadd, final disbursement of funds may be done before the item is returned.
To save time for anyone thinking of typing out a reply which just repeats something posted on PayPal's website, I know this from personal experience. >>
A) I never said that and If the buyer is required to return the item to the seller and he doesn't, he is guilty of chargeback fraud which is a criminal offense.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
<< <i>According to FBH PP and/or AMEX will require that the item be returned before final disbursement of funds is done. >>
According to mrpotatoheadd, final disbursement of funds may be done before the item is returned.
To save time for anyone thinking of typing out a reply which just repeats something posted on PayPal's website, I know this from personal experience. >>
A) I never said that and If the buyer is required to return the item to the seller and he doesn't, he is guilty of chargeback fraud which is a criminal offense. >>
Sorry, my bad. I guess that was Storm888 who mentioned that.
<< <i>In any event, at some point, PP will ask AMEX to request that the "buyer" return the >>
In MY experience, PP and AMEX and Discover have asked that the item be returned PRIOR to the final resolution.
Others' experiences might vary.
In one case, I was the buyer doing the chargeback. AMEX refused to close the case until the seller confirmed that he had recd the returned item; I even had his sig-con, and AMEX still waited until the seller confirmed receipt directly to THEM. (This was a $300+ transaction.)
I still think the instant case will be resolved in the seller's favor. He will get the coin back, OR the money. (More likely the money if the "buyer" is a conster, who sold the coin for FAST cash.)
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
I've had three problem transactions with PayPal and in every one of them PayPal has done something which I have been told (in no uncertain terms) they would not do by people on internet message boards.
I mean no offense to anyone here, but it is frustrating, reading about how a particular PayPal dispute *will* be handled based on what PP says on their website or what they did in a past dispute. I'm sure people mean well when posting their advice or opinions, but the bottom line is... unless the person posting is the PayPal employee ultimately responsible for making the final determination of the outcome of the dispute, there's no way to be sure what they will decide.
I've had three problem transactions with PayPal and in every one of them PayPal has done something which I have been told (in no uncertain terms) they would not do by people on internet message boards.
I mean no offense to anyone here, but it is frustrating, reading about how a particular PayPal dispute *will* be handled based on what PP says on their website or what they did in a past dispute. I'm sure people mean well when posting their advice or opinions, but the bottom line is... unless the person posting is the PayPal employee ultimately responsible for making the final determination of the outcome of the dispute, there's no way to be sure what they will decide. >>
Actually, once the buyer started a chargeback dispute through his credit card company they are the ones that determine the validity of the buyers claim not PayPal.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
<< <i>Actually, once the buyer started a chargeback dispute through his credit card company they are the ones that determine the validity of the buyers claim not PayPal. >>
You mean the guy who (as was described here by the seller) did a chargeback without returning the item? I'm not talking about his claim. My comment was addressing what PayPal will do for (or possibly just as likely, *to*) the seller, regardless of what the cc company determines.
Right on, brother! Well put. Exactly 110% right. Thank you.
<< <i> mean no offense to anyone here, but it is frustrating, reading about how a particular PayPal dispute *will* be handled based on what PP says on their website or what they did in a past dispute. I'm sure people mean well when posting their advice or opinions, but the bottom line is... unless the person posting is the PayPal employee ultimately responsible for making the final determination of the outcome of the dispute, there's no way to be sure what they will decide. >>
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<< <i>Actually, once the buyer started a chargeback dispute through his credit card company they are the ones that determine the validity of the buyers claim not PayPal. >>
You mean the guy who (as was described here by the seller) did a chargeback without returning the item? I'm not talking about his claim. My comment was addressing what PayPal will do for (or possibly just as likely, *to*) the seller, regardless of what the cc company determines. >>
If the buyer feels he did not get what he paid for, he should attempt to work it out with the seller first. If a chargeback is started, he will need the item to support his claim and is advised not to return it to the merchant until he is instructed to do so.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
That, my friend, is one of *MY*questions. If there was something wrong with the coin, I would have replaced it or refunded his money. By the same token, it was slabbed as a PF70, so I can't begin to imagine what the problem is.
In answer to your question, my guess is this: because there was nothing wrong with the coin he was sent.
<< <i>Why didn't the buyer ask for a refund or return? Mike >>
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<< <i>That, my friend, is one of *MY*questions. If there was something wrong with the coin, I would have replaced it or refunded his money. By the same token, it was slabbed as a PF70, so I can't begin to imagine what the problem is.
In answer to your question, my guess is this: because there was nothing wrong with the coin he was sent.
<< <i>Why didn't the buyer ask for a refund or return? Mike >>
>>
For example, there are coins that have gone bad in the slab (milkspots anyone?). If this was not disclosed by the seller the buyer would have a valid SNAD claim, IMO.
Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig
<< <i>Actually, once the buyer started a chargeback dispute through his credit card company they are the ones that determine the validity of the buyers claim not PayPal. >>
You mean the guy who (as was described here by the seller) did a chargeback without returning the item? I'm not talking about his claim. My comment was addressing what PayPal will do for (or possibly just as likely, *to*) the seller, regardless of what the cc company determines. >>
What was stated earlier is what was/is supposed to happen. Anyone here who remembers a Dr. Bernard Melcher on Talknet radio also remembers his comments about the "life experience" being somewhat different than the ideal.
I still don't understand why the guy waited 6 weeks for a claim like this, but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
It's Friday, April 4, 2008. Ironically, Jimmy Cliff's version of "I Can See Clearly Now" is playing on the Streaming Audio (aside: it's a cool feed if you are into old school rock'n'roll like Springsteen and the Beach Boys -- the stream is called "Garage Rock from SteveMack In There", accessed off the ShoutCast link on Winamp ... but I digress).
With no words of kindness, support or substantive information from the customer, AMEX or PayPal forthcoming -- not surprisingly, none of them has contacted me on the Bat Phone (or the Bat Email Server, if he had one of those) -- I've committed to pursue the litigation route. This is not something that I do lightly -- even though I have convinced an attorney friend of mine to assist in the process and suit papers have been drafted and forwarded to me in very rough form, suit itself has not yet been filed. We want to do a little more preliminary research first to make sure that ALL of our ducks are in a row first.
First stop: Establishing jurisdiction here in Maryland. I don't have a contract with AMEX and they do business here, so we're fairly certain that there will be no issue suing them here. PP is a little stickier, though, because the PP User Agreement contains an arbitration and jurisdiction clause that seems to limit where suit can be filed (Santa Clara, CA, approximately 3000 miles from my doorstep) and -- obviously -- that's a concern.
Thanks go out to a concerned and unusually helpful CU reader who provided me with a link to a website that contained a legal citation to a California federal case that apparently held that the PP jurisdiction and arbitration clause is unconscionable (both "substantively" and "procedurally") and that it violates California law. Thanks go out to Google, that allowed me to find a website that contained the actual case itself so that I could read it myself. And thanks go out to legal publisher BNA for putting the complete legal decision on the case on the 'net for free:
This is relatively new legal territory for my attorney (and, obviously, for me), so we're proceeding slowly and carefully. There are a few more legal areas that he/we want to research before the case gets filed, however. I'm guessing that the ETA for FestivusMaximus v. PayPal and AMEX will be in about a week or two. Any and all insights from the CU masses during this process are very welcome and strongly encouraged!
By the way, if my attorney is agreeable and folks here express a meaningful interest to have access to that much detail, I'm willing to email copies of all of my actual legal filings (and PayPal's and AMEX's responsive filings) to any CU member. (I will not forward anything unless or until it has actually been filed in Court, however.) It'll kind of be like CourtTV, CU-style! Let me know by PM if that interests any of you. (If enough people express interest, I'll probably just post the linkys here.)
Onward!
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Imho (as a proud graduate of third grade), that you'd be better off suing in Kalifornia. You'd round-up all three parties that way. Your lawyer friend could/should advise you on landing an attorney on a contingency if Kalifornia is a loser pays state. For now, the saber rattling may shake some of YOUR money from the tree.
The only problem with my suing in Kally, eBaytrader, is the little issue of my attending the trial to testify. I'd have to fly out there from Maryland, stay over, and then fly back. Probably not worth it for a $1,068 case.
Of course, I could try to get permission from my wife to make a quick stop (for business-related purposes only, of course) in Vegas prior to the trial ...
<< <i>Good! Imho (as a proud graduate of third grade), that you'd be better off suing in Kalifornia. You'd round-up all three parties that way. Your lawyer friend could/should advise you on landing an attorney on a contingency if Kalifornia is a loser pays state. For now, the saber rattling may shake some of YOUR money from the tree.
Good luck! >>
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You mean, can I testify by phone? I don't know much about Kally small claims courts -- I guess it is theoretically possible. I know in Maryland that -- for all courts, including small claims -- you need to appear in person to present your case otherwise your case is dismissed. But if anybody in the CU world has any info on California small claims and the need to appear in person, please let me know.
The other issue, I guess, (and I know that this is very cynical) is that I'm guessing PayPal would have a "home town" advantage in the courts in Santa Clara County, which may be why they want to litigate there. My Spider Senses tell me the further away from their home base I am, the better it is for me. That's just a gut instinct but (believe me) I have a very big gut!
(As an aside, I also know that the rules for arbitrations are different -- they can go forward by conference call or email or whatever is agreed to by the parties involved.)
<< <i>Can't they do that with a conference call? >>
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<< <i>The only problem with my suing in Kally, eBaytrader, is the little issue of my attending the trial to testify. I'd have to fly out there from Maryland, stay over, and then fly back. Probably not worth it for a $1,068 case.
Of course, I could try to get permission from my wife to make a quick stop (for business-related purposes only, of course) in Vegas prior to the trial ...
>>
Loser pays means the loser pays. Once the scammer gets an idea of what it may cost him in the end, he'll pony up the coin or the bux (But I don't hold out hope. There's a load of idiots out there).
<< <i>Can't they do that with a conference call? >>
Here, in small claims, you can. In a higher court, I don't think so.
Are you saying that the loser would have to pay my travel expenses? If that's true, that would be great (and also, surprising). Do you (or anybody else out in CU-land) happen to have a link to some official document that says that?
<< <i>
<< <i>The only problem with my suing in Kally, eBaytrader, is the little issue of my attending the trial to testify. I'd have to fly out there from Maryland, stay over, and then fly back. Probably not worth it for a $1,068 case. >>
Loser pays means the loser pays. Once the scammer gets an idea of what it may cost him in the end, he'll pony up the coin or the bux (But I don't hold out hope. There's a load of idiots out there).
<< <i>Can't they do that with a conference call? >>
<< <i>Here, in small claims, you can. In a higher court, I don't think so. >>
>>
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Comments
<< <i>I "will" be contacted by AMEX, huh? >>
Don't hold your breath on that one...
Seriously, though- why would anyone think AMEX would be expected to? You don't have a merchant account with AMEX, do you? You didn't process a charge against your buyer's AMEX cc, did you? PayPal did that, didn't they?
<< <i>
<< <i>I "will" be contacted by AMEX, huh? >>
Don't hold your breath on that one...
Seriously, though- why would anyone think AMEX would be expected to? You don't have a merchant account with AMEX, do you? You didn't process a charge against your buyer's AMEX cc, did you? PayPal did that, didn't they? >>
Correct, since the transaction occured through PayPal, they are the link between the buyers credit card company and the merchant. They will gather documentation from both parties involved and forward it to the card issuer who makes a determination as to the validity of the buyers claim.
<< <i>$ >>
The root of all
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
<< <i>$ >>
The root of all
I should have typed "100 non cents" instead of the dollar sign.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Find a decent lawyer and explain what you want him/her to do and that is to write a very scary letter to PayPal, AMEX and the buyer threatening a lawsuit. You have to remember that for any of these entities to even react to a lawsuit, justified or not, will cost WAY over $1000. Try around 5K. Business is business so they can all chip in 5K (15K) to fight over a 1K deal or someone with sense will settle. It shouldn't cost you more than $150-300. Ouch! Blood suckers aren't cheap but a $700 recoup is better than a 1K loss. Make sure you make the blood sucker, I mean lawyer get mean enough. They are usually scared of sanctions so they are a little wimpy. Just remember, they work for you! >>
Not bad advice. Make sure you send every document needed to paypal concerning the dispute.. I would do it certified to show proof it was done. Perhaps if you cannot get anywhere with them one of us can step up for you and give you a hand drafting a letter.
A lot of people here help out in a lot of different ways whether just your normal run of the mill numismatic info posts, condolences on a loss of a son, daughter, mother, father or grandparent. Others go out of their way to help out in different ways. I know Frank's family is grateful.
I know we have a few lawyers on the board that may be able to draft up a letter for you without a fee. Just a thread showing appreciation and perhaps a good resolution. This might give the rest of us that are threatened by the same thing possibly happening a little faith.
I do not have a merchant account with AMEX; I'm probably like most people of these boards. I have a full-time job, collect coins and buy/sell others part-time to help pay for the hobby (and help pay for the kids' schooling, etc.). I didn't process a direct charge on the Buyer's AMEX CC -- PayPal did that (which is why I was frustrated that PayPal would not verify what, if any, of my documentation they forwarded to AMEX). And, as I stated a bunch of times here, AMEX told me that they were never going to contact me.
It's just that there are a few folks here who seem (my impression) to want to blame the victim and who tend toward condescending in their posts ("You don't understand chargebacks", "AMEX *WILL* contact you", "It's called due process") -- which is to be expected, I guess, when dealing with a large group of experienced folks. I do my best to be respectful towards those I disagree with (I'm not always successful, but I do try), but in this case, at least, I feel the PayPal/Amex apologists are plain wrong (at least in HMO): AMEX will never contact me, and -- if my money is going to be taken from me and PayPal is going to deny Seller Protection coverage -- I still strongly feel that I deserve some type of meaningful explanation and proof from SOMEBODY which (to date at least) has not been forthcoming. I'm not optimistic about getting that, either.
However, I am convinced that the only way I get my money back is to put respectful pressure on AMEX and PayPal, and even then I'm not particularly optimistic. I have now have legal counsel working on the case. We'll see what happens.
<< <i>
<< <i>I "will" be contacted by AMEX, huh? >>
Don't hold your breath on that one...
Seriously, though- why would anyone think AMEX would be expected to? You don't have a merchant account with AMEX, do you? You didn't process a charge against your buyer's AMEX cc, did you? PayPal did that, didn't they? >>
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I'll take any assistance that's offered (there's a lot of experience represented on this board and -- if you'll forgive the phrasing -- I'm more than happy to "mine the gold" of all of your insights), but I do have a lawyer working on the case now. It'll probably end up costing me more than the coin is worth, but I don't care. Lord knows that I have many weak spots in my personality, and one of the biggest is my Napolean Complex; if I feel that I'm being taken advantage of by Big Dogs because I'm preceived as the "little guy", it tends to arouse my fighting instincts multiplied by 10. Every so often I feel that I have an obligation to make a point for the little guy no matter what it costs, and this (unfortunately) has become one of those cases.
<< <i>Not bad advice. Make sure you send every document needed to paypal concerning the dispute.. I would do it certified to show proof it was done. Perhaps if you cannot get anywhere with them one of us can step up for you and give you a hand drafting a letter.
A lot of people here help out in a lot of different ways whether just your normal run of the mill numismatic info posts, condolences on a loss of a son, daughter, mother, father or grandparent. Others go out of their way to help out in different ways. I know Frank's family is grateful.
I know we have a few lawyers on the board that may be able to draft up a letter for you without a fee. Just a thread showing appreciation and perhaps a good resolution. This might give the rest of us that are threatened by the same thing possibly happening a little faith. >>
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<< <i>You seem a bit impatient; your case is just one of thousands that they have to process. >>
I believe the OP's self-admitted Napolean complex is the issue, not the way his case is being handled. The chargeback process and timeframe (60 days) are outlined in the PayPal user agreement (which by accepting PayPal he agreed to) and chargeback guide.
<< <i>Sc*mbags! >>
Not that I'm a BIG FAN of PP, but this is a PITA for them too. The scatbag is Frank Lee unless there is something that we are not being told. Not sure how one would accomplish it, but there really needs to be some sort of DONE DEAL thing that would come into play situations like these.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sc*mbags! >>
Not that I'm a BIG FAN of PP, but this is a PITA for them too. The scatbag is Frank Lee unless there is something that we are not being told. Not sure how one would accomplish it, but there really needs to be some sort of DONE DEAL thing that would come into play situations like these. >>
The process is designed to protect the rights of the parties involved while the case is under review and reach an objective determination regarding the merits of the dispute, which can only be reached after carefully revewing the facts presented by parties involved. Something which can not occur in an open forum where only one side of the story is presented.
<< <i>My point is that 6 weeks is more than enough time to decide if the item is NSAD. It shouldn't be able to be used as a way for smoeone like the buyer to weasel out of a deal cuz he can't/won't pay his bills. >>
After the buyers card issuer is contacted they in turn will wait before contacting PayPal which starts the dispute process. As I have stated, as part of the process, the buyer should be asked to obtain a signed statement from a qualified 3rd party supporting the buyers claim the item is not as described in order to determine wether the buyer is mearly trying to back out of the deal.
<< <i>
<< <i>My point is that 6 weeks is more than enough time to decide if the item is NSAD. It shouldn't be able to be used as a way for smoeone like the buyer to weasel out of a deal cuz he can't/won't pay his bills. >>
After the buyers card issuer is contacted they in turn will wait before contacting PayPal which starts the dispute process. As I have stated, as part of the process, the buyer should be asked to obtain a signed statement from a qualified 3rd party supporting the buyers claim the item is not as described in order to determine wether the buyer is mearly trying to back out of the deal. >>
Could you provide a citation for your post.
I just reviewed a typical merchant's cc agreement and it basically says, "you're at our mercy, bwhahahahaha!".
There is no spelled out process for merchants appealing chargebacks.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>My point is that 6 weeks is more than enough time to decide if the item is NSAD. It shouldn't be able to be used as a way for smoeone like the buyer to weasel out of a deal cuz he can't/won't pay his bills. >>
After the buyers card issuer is contacted they in turn will wait before contacting PayPal which starts the dispute process. As I have stated, as part of the process, the buyer should be asked to obtain a signed statement from a qualified 3rd party supporting the buyers claim the item is not as described in order to determine wether the buyer is mearly trying to back out of the deal. >>
Could you provide a citation for your post.
I just reviewed a typical merchant's cc agreement and it basically says, "you're at our mercy, bwhahahahaha!".
There is no spelled out process for merchants appealing chargebacks. >>
If you search for 'chargeback guide' on the PayPal site it will provide a number of related guides. Addititional specific guidelines will be presented to the merchant involved in the dispute.
//////////////////////////////////////////
Yup.
PP usually gets it done in about a month; sometimes, it takes longer.
Thus far, nothing out of the ordinary is happening here.
What about small claims court just the two parties involved and the judge. You don't need a lawyer. I would seriously look into it.
Small Claims Court
You are talking about a 2k loss. The coin and the money are both lost if Paypal favors the buyer. I don't know how small claims court works and if the judge can prosecute criminal charges for theft also.
Box of 20
///////////////////////////////////
The actual loss is approx $1K.
Box of 20
Once it is all over, if unfortunately Paypal/Amex have ruled against you and you have no money and no coin, there is one option I can suggest to you. When we had our large chargeback, we ended up hiring a private investigator who sort of specializes in collections, and does work for coin dealers. We did incur signifcant expense, but once this guy was on the case, we got the coin back. Cost us about 30% of the value of the coin in fees, which I feel is very reasonable (this coin was over $10k). This investigator IS located in California, and while your coin is not a $10k coin, if he lives near this guy or will be traveling through his area, I imagine he'd be more than willing to pay a visit. Most crooks don't expect a guy to show up on their doorstep demanding money. Our PI guy worked with the local police and got the coin back quickly (always helpful to have law enforcement involved, and it's easier for an investigator on site to get the police involved than it is to for you to have to call your local detective and hope he'll call the crook's local detective and then hope that detective does something about it). I noticed the post in this thread from another board member who sent a coin to this guy. If the guy pulls the same scam and gets away with it, perhaps the two of you can call this investigator and see if he'd be interested in taking the case (and find out how much it would cost). If you pool your resources, the cost to recover will reduce and this guy hopefully gets busted.
Anyway, PM me if you'd like the contact information of this investigator. Again, being based in California, perhaps he is nearby and can pay a quick visit for a minimal fee. Or, if he has plans to be passing through the area in the near future, he can plan a visit then.
Either way, good luck to you! I've read the entire thread, and I feel there is still a decent shot you'll get money or coin back. But don't plan on it happening anytime soon.
Chris
I've said this before -- my primary issue isn't the time frame. My issue is that both AMEX and PayPal are refusing -- now and forever -- to provide me with any documented proof of the basis for the buyer's claim and (in PayPal's case) in support of their position that this is a NSAD case (thus taking it outside of PP's Seller Protection Policy). That, and the fact that AMEX will not permit to submit documentation to them directly, nor will PayPal verify what documentation of mine they will forward to AMEX.
As for my being "impatient": Call it what you will -- but if my money has been taken from me, and it isn't being kept in an interest-bearing escrow account pending resolution -- then there is a motivation for AMEX to delay this thing as long as possible, all the while obtaining the use of my money for free. Does that please me? Nope. If that makes me impatient then, you are quite correct, I am impatient.
<< <i>"You seem a bit impatient; your case is just one of thousands that they have to process. "
//////////////////////////////////////////
PP usually gets it done in about a month; sometimes, it takes longer.
Thus far, nothing out of the ordinary is happening here. >>
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PM sent. Not sure I'll go the PI route, but it is nice to be able to consider that as an option. Thanks for the info.
- Doug
<< <i>Sorry for the situation you're in, festivusmaximus. Speaking from experience, chargeback cases DO take a long time. Our biggest one was with Discover, and it took us by complete surprise since we got the letter at least two months after the transaction had occurred. They asked us for all the supporting evidence we could provide, then (as expected) they ruled against us in another couple of weeks. However, the situation was different than yours (we were worse off with what we could provide). I still have hope that you may see this thing through without a loss - it simply takes a long time.
Once it is all over, if unfortunately Paypal/Amex have ruled against you and you have no money and no coin, there is one option I can suggest to you. When we had our large chargeback, we ended up hiring a private investigator who sort of specializes in collections, and does work for coin dealers. We did incur signifcant expense, but once this guy was on the case, we got the coin back. Cost us about 30% of the value of the coin in fees, which I feel is very reasonable (this coin was over $10k). This investigator IS located in California, and while your coin is not a $10k coin, if he lives near this guy or will be traveling through his area, I imagine he'd be more than willing to pay a visit. Most crooks don't expect a guy to show up on their doorstep demanding money. Our PI guy worked with the local police and got the coin back quickly (always helpful to have law enforcement involved, and it's easier for an investigator on site to get the police involved than it is to for you to have to call your local detective and hope he'll call the crook's local detective and then hope that detective does something about it). I noticed the post in this thread from another board member who sent a coin to this guy. If the guy pulls the same scam and gets away with it, perhaps the two of you can call this investigator and see if he'd be interested in taking the case (and find out how much it would cost). If you pool your resources, the cost to recover will reduce and this guy hopefully gets busted.
Anyway, PM me if you'd like the contact information of this investigator. Again, being based in California, perhaps he is nearby and can pay a quick visit for a minimal fee. Or, if he has plans to be passing through the area in the near future, he can plan a visit then.
Either way, good luck to you! I've read the entire thread, and I feel there is still a decent shot you'll get money or coin back. But don't plan on it happening anytime soon.
Chris >>
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<< <i>According to FBH PP and/or AMEX will require that the item be returned before final disbursement of funds is done. >>
According to mrpotatoheadd, final disbursement of funds may be done before the item is returned.
To save time for anyone thinking of typing out a reply which just repeats something posted on PayPal's website, I know this from personal experience.
<< <i>
<< <i>According to FBH PP and/or AMEX will require that the item be returned before final disbursement of funds is done. >>
According to mrpotatoheadd, final disbursement of funds may be done before the item is returned.
To save time for anyone thinking of typing out a reply which just repeats something posted on PayPal's website, I know this from personal experience. >>
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<< <i>
<< <i>According to FBH PP and/or AMEX will require that the item be returned before final disbursement of funds is done. >>
According to mrpotatoheadd, final disbursement of funds may be done before the item is returned.
To save time for anyone thinking of typing out a reply which just repeats something posted on PayPal's website, I know this from personal experience. >>
A) I never said that and
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>According to FBH PP and/or AMEX will require that the item be returned before final disbursement of funds is done. >>
According to mrpotatoheadd, final disbursement of funds may be done before the item is returned.
To save time for anyone thinking of typing out a reply which just repeats something posted on PayPal's website, I know this from personal experience. >>
A) I never said that and
Sorry, my bad. I guess that was Storm888 who mentioned that.
<< <i>In any event, at some point, PP will ask AMEX to request that the "buyer" return the >>
<< In any event, at some point, PP will ask AMEX to request that the "buyer" return the (item)>>
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Yup.
In MY experience, PP and AMEX and Discover have asked that the item be returned PRIOR to the final resolution.
Others' experiences might vary.
In one case, I was the buyer doing the chargeback. AMEX refused to close the case
until the seller confirmed that he had recd the returned item; I even had his sig-con,
and AMEX still waited until the seller confirmed receipt directly to THEM. (This was a $300+ transaction.)
I still think the instant case will be resolved in the seller's favor. He will get the coin back,
OR the money.
(More likely the money if the "buyer" is a conster, who sold the coin for FAST cash.)
<< <i>Others' experiences might vary >>
Not *might*- others' experiences *do* vary.
I've had three problem transactions with PayPal and in every one of them PayPal has done something which I have been told (in no uncertain terms) they would not do by people on internet message boards.
I mean no offense to anyone here, but it is frustrating, reading about how a particular PayPal dispute *will* be handled based on what PP says on their website or what they did in a past dispute. I'm sure people mean well when posting their advice or opinions, but the bottom line is... unless the person posting is the PayPal employee ultimately responsible for making the final determination of the outcome of the dispute, there's no way to be sure what they will decide.
<< <i>
<< <i>Others' experiences might vary >>
Not *might*- others' experiences *do* vary.
I've had three problem transactions with PayPal and in every one of them PayPal has done something which I have been told (in no uncertain terms) they would not do by people on internet message boards.
I mean no offense to anyone here, but it is frustrating, reading about how a particular PayPal dispute *will* be handled based on what PP says on their website or what they did in a past dispute. I'm sure people mean well when posting their advice or opinions, but the bottom line is... unless the person posting is the PayPal employee ultimately responsible for making the final determination of the outcome of the dispute, there's no way to be sure what they will decide. >>
Actually, once the buyer started a chargeback dispute through his credit card company they are the ones that determine the validity of the buyers claim not PayPal.
<< <i>Actually, once the buyer started a chargeback dispute through his credit card company they are the ones that determine the validity of the buyers claim not PayPal. >>
You mean the guy who (as was described here by the seller) did a chargeback without returning the item? I'm not talking about his claim. My comment was addressing what PayPal will do for (or possibly just as likely, *to*) the seller, regardless of what the cc company determines.
<< <i> mean no offense to anyone here, but it is frustrating, reading about how a particular PayPal dispute *will* be handled based on what PP says on their website or what they did in a past dispute. I'm sure people mean well when posting their advice or opinions, but the bottom line is... unless the person posting is the PayPal employee ultimately responsible for making the final determination of the outcome of the dispute, there's no way to be sure what they will decide. >>
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<< <i>
<< <i>Actually, once the buyer started a chargeback dispute through his credit card company they are the ones that determine the validity of the buyers claim not PayPal. >>
You mean the guy who (as was described here by the seller) did a chargeback without returning the item? I'm not talking about his claim. My comment was addressing what PayPal will do for (or possibly just as likely, *to*) the seller, regardless of what the cc company determines. >>
If the buyer feels he did not get what he paid for, he should attempt to work it out with the seller first. If a chargeback is started, he will need the item to support his claim and is advised not to return it to the merchant until he is instructed to do so.
In answer to your question, my guess is this: because there was nothing wrong with the coin he was sent.
<< <i>Why didn't the buyer ask for a refund or return? Mike >>
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<< <i>If the buyer feels he did not get what he paid for, he should attempt to work it out with the seller first. >>
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<< <i>That, my friend, is one of *MY*questions. If there was something wrong with the coin, I would have replaced it or refunded his money. By the same token, it was slabbed as a PF70, so I can't begin to imagine what the problem is.
In answer to your question, my guess is this: because there was nothing wrong with the coin he was sent.
<< <i>Why didn't the buyer ask for a refund or return? Mike >>
>>
For example, there are coins that have gone bad in the slab (milkspots anyone?). If this was not disclosed by the seller the buyer would have a valid SNAD claim, IMO.
<< <i>
<< <i>Actually, once the buyer started a chargeback dispute through his credit card company they are the ones that determine the validity of the buyers claim not PayPal. >>
You mean the guy who (as was described here by the seller) did a chargeback without returning the item? I'm not talking about his claim. My comment was addressing what PayPal will do for (or possibly just as likely, *to*) the seller, regardless of what the cc company determines. >>
What was stated earlier is what was/is supposed to happen. Anyone here who remembers a Dr. Bernard Melcher on Talknet radio also remembers his comments about the "life experience" being somewhat different than the ideal.
I still don't understand why the guy waited 6 weeks for a claim like this, but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
With no words of kindness, support or substantive information from the customer, AMEX or PayPal forthcoming -- not surprisingly, none of them has contacted me on the Bat Phone (or the Bat Email Server, if he had one of those) -- I've committed to pursue the litigation route. This is not something that I do lightly -- even though I have convinced an attorney friend of mine to assist in the process and suit papers have been drafted and forwarded to me in very rough form, suit itself has not yet been filed. We want to do a little more preliminary research first to make sure that ALL of our ducks are in a row first.
First stop: Establishing jurisdiction here in Maryland. I don't have a contract with AMEX and they do business here, so we're fairly certain that there will be no issue suing them here. PP is a little stickier, though, because the PP User Agreement contains an arbitration and jurisdiction clause that seems to limit where suit can be filed (Santa Clara, CA, approximately 3000 miles from my doorstep) and -- obviously -- that's a concern.
Thanks go out to a concerned and unusually helpful CU reader who provided me with a link to a website that contained a legal citation to a California federal case that apparently held that the PP jurisdiction and arbitration clause is unconscionable (both "substantively" and "procedurally") and that it violates California law. Thanks go out to Google, that allowed me to find a website that contained the actual case itself so that I could read it myself. And thanks go out to legal publisher BNA for putting the complete legal decision on the case on the 'net for free:
Linky to In Re PayPal Case
This is relatively new legal territory for my attorney (and, obviously, for me), so we're proceeding slowly and carefully. There are a few more legal areas that he/we want to research before the case gets filed, however. I'm guessing that the ETA for FestivusMaximus v. PayPal and AMEX will be in about a week or two. Any and all insights from the CU masses during this process are very welcome and strongly encouraged!
By the way, if my attorney is agreeable and folks here express a meaningful interest to have access to that much detail, I'm willing to email copies of all of my actual legal filings (and PayPal's and AMEX's responsive filings) to any CU member. (I will not forward anything unless or until it has actually been filed in Court, however.) It'll kind of be like CourtTV, CU-style! Let me know by PM if that interests any of you. (If enough people express interest, I'll probably just post the linkys here.)
Onward!
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Imho (as a proud graduate of third grade), that you'd be better off suing in Kalifornia. You'd round-up all three parties that way. Your lawyer friend could/should advise you on landing an attorney on a contingency if Kalifornia is a loser pays state. For now, the saber rattling may shake some of YOUR money from the tree.
Good luck!
Of course, I could try to get permission from my wife to make a quick stop (for business-related purposes only, of course) in Vegas prior to the trial ...
<< <i>Good!
Imho (as a proud graduate of third grade), that you'd be better off suing in Kalifornia. You'd round-up all three parties that way. Your lawyer friend could/should advise you on landing an attorney on a contingency if Kalifornia is a loser pays state. For now, the saber rattling may shake some of YOUR money from the tree.
Good luck! >>
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The other issue, I guess, (and I know that this is very cynical) is that I'm guessing PayPal would have a "home town" advantage in the courts in Santa Clara County, which may be why they want to litigate there. My Spider Senses tell me the further away from their home base I am, the better it is for me. That's just a gut instinct but (believe me) I have a very big gut!
(As an aside, I also know that the rules for arbitrations are different -- they can go forward by conference call or email or whatever is agreed to by the parties involved.)
<< <i>Can't they do that with a conference call? >>
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<< <i>The only problem with my suing in Kally, eBaytrader, is the little issue of my attending the trial to testify. I'd have to fly out there from Maryland, stay over, and then fly back. Probably not worth it for a $1,068 case.
Of course, I could try to get permission from my wife to make a quick stop (for business-related purposes only, of course) in Vegas prior to the trial ...
>>
Loser pays means the loser pays. Once the scammer gets an idea of what it may cost him in the end, he'll pony up the coin or the bux (But I don't hold out hope. There's a load of idiots out there).
<< <i>Can't they do that with a conference call? >>
Here, in small claims, you can. In a higher court, I don't think so.
<< <i>
<< <i>The only problem with my suing in Kally, eBaytrader, is the little issue of my attending the trial to testify. I'd have to fly out there from Maryland, stay over, and then fly back. Probably not worth it for a $1,068 case.
Loser pays means the loser pays. Once the scammer gets an idea of what it may cost him in the end, he'll pony up the coin or the bux (But I don't hold out hope. There's a load of idiots out there).
<< <i>Can't they do that with a conference call? >>
<< <i>Here, in small claims, you can. In a higher court, I don't think so. >>
>>
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