PayPal issue - 6/11 update - resolution: SUCCESSFUL!

festivusmaximus

Simple version of the facts: outside of eBay, I sold some guy a slabbed 1/2-oz plat coin (NGC PF70) and he paid by PayPal. His source of funds was an American Express card, as I found out later. I shipped the coin to him to his confirmed address with a signature confirmation. USPS website says it was received and signed for on February 11th, 4 days after he paid (I shipped the same day he paid).

All was well for six weeks. Then, a week ago Saturday, I received an emailed notice from PayPal -- the guy had requested a chargeback FROM AMERICAN EXPRESS for the entire amount of the coin because (according to PayPal) the item was "not substantially as described or services were not provided." (He had never contacted me to discuss a problem, nor did he contest it through PayPal.) Under these circumstances, PayPal (according to the email) says they defer to American Express -- so they took the money out of my account and gave it to AMEX.

Don't worry, PayPal assured me, THEY would fight the chargeback on my behalf and try to get my money back from AMEX. They asked me to fax to them all of my documentation, which I did. And then things got REALLY strange ...

Although PayPal did confirm that they received my documentation, PayPal REFUSED to confirm that they forwarded it to AMEX because (get this!) to do so would invade the privacy of the customer! WHAT?!? *I* was the one who sent it to PayPal -- how would it compromise the customer's privacy to confirm that you (PayPal) forwarded what I had sent? Answer I received: "It does."

And -- oh yeah -- PayPal also assessed an additional $10 fee against my account because they were handling this transaction for me.

I asked PayPal if I could communicate directly with AMEX on this matter. They said sure ... so I called Amex and -- guess what? -- they won't speak with me either. I said to AMEX, look, you don't have to TELL me anything about the customer's complaint although it would sure me nice if you did -- all I want to do is personally fax to you the relevant documentation to protect my own interests and to assist in your purported "investigation." Nope, AMEX said, to receive documentation from me about the complaint concerning my coin (the coin for which they are currently holding my money) would violate their customer's privacy.

Wait. It gets better.

Back to PayPal: I am a verified seller who shipped to a confirmed address and I can prove it (I have provided the USPS tracking number to PayPal; and, indeed, actually purchased the shipping label THROUGH PAYPAL.) (ASIDE: I've been on PayPal since 2000, have completed hundreds of transactions with them and NEVER had a chargeback or complaint. NEVER.) So I asked PayPal why this doesn't fall under the Seller Chargeback Protection policy because all of the conditions have been met (I'm verified, shipped promptly to a confirmed address, and provided proof of same to PayPal). Answer I received: because the customer claims that the item substantially differed from what was purchased. I then asked for proof that "substantial difference" was actually the basis for the customer's chargeback and -- ready for this? -- PayPal said that they couldn't give me any information on the basis for the chargeback because it violated the customer's privacy. For all I know, PayPal is making up the basis for the chargeback for the purpose of denying Seller Chargeback Protection to me.

So, to recap: customer has coin (1/2oz of platinum in a PF70 holder). PayPal gave AMEX my money (about $1050). PayPal is refusing to implement its Seller Protection policy. And NOBODY has yet told me exactly what the customer's complaint is, nor provided me with any actual evidence of any kind in regards to the basis of the complaint, including the customer (I've email him -- no response to date).

I know that I'm in the middle of this so I'm not exactly an objective observer, but this shouldn't happen in America.

Sorry to rant like this, but I am a bit ... uh ... #$@!^%!!@ angry.

ebaytrader

Welcome to retail!

guym

I don't blame you for ranting you must feel like the situation is hopeless. I would definitely stay on paypal until this matter is resolved.
Threaten to notify the numismatic news and other coin publications, it sounds to me like you have a legitimate beef.

charley

Who said the citizens' right to privacy wasn't alive and well? you should be proud to be a part of upholding the rights of privacy for others and the infringement of your rights by the same citizens. Where is your patriotism? You think we were kidding around with the Patriot Act? We are watching you- better stop trying to get fair,equal and logical treatment, or else....Respectfully, John Curlis

COINB0Y

Who is the Buyer so we can Block him?

BECOKA

You could file for mail fraud, I believe this falls under that and you could include AMEX and Paypal if an suit get filed.

Looks like I have been wasting my money by using signature confirmation.

FilthyBroke

Wow, I feel bad for you, man. I guess I've been lucky so far, no problems. It does make me nervous dealing with over a couple of hundred dollars with PayPal, Ebay, or just mail order sales in general where big $$s are involved. I wonder how many people this happens to..... Yeah, I agree with guym that you should keep on them (PayPal). Couldn't hurt.....

festivusmaximus

LOL. God Bless America! Thanks for the smile, JC, I needed it.

As for Numismatic News or any other publication: I have all of the emails and documentation and (with respect to the phone calls) all of the names -- and I will gladly share!



<< <i>Who said the citizens' right to privacy wasn't alive and well? you should be proud to be a part of upholding the rights of privacy for others and the infringement of your rights by the same citizens. Where is your patriotism? You think we were kidding around with the Patriot Act? We are watching you- better stop trying to get fair,equal and logical treatment, or else....Respectfully, John Curlis >>

seatedcoins

What slab was it in? Was it in a slab?

nycounsel

Have you tried contacting the buyer directly to see what the story is? Did the buyer leave you positive feedback indicating satisfied with the purchase?

festivusmaximus

The only problem is that I don't know if mail fraud has been committed because nobody -- including the customer -- has told me what the basis of the alleged complaint is!




<< <i>You could file for mail fraud, I believe this falls under that and you could include AMEX and Paypal if an suit get filed.

Looks like I have been wasting my money by using signature confirmation. >>

festivusmaximus

An NGC PF70UC.



<< <i>What slab was it in? Was it in a slab? >>

storm888

It usually takes PP about a month to do their job.

If they shaft you, put a lawyer on them. They will cave fast.

//////////////////



ALL funds in PP should be swept to a bank account at the
end of EVERY business day.

smokincoin

<< <i>Who is the Buyer so we can Block him? >>


Yeah...you'd be doing ALOT of favors by simply typing a name!

charley

It was my honored pleasure and duty. Respectfully, John Curlis PS:Watch John Adams for possible ideas on how to defend yourself.

FLBuffaloHunter

Since the transaction occured outside of eBay, you are not covered under the PayPal seller protection policy. They will try to fight the chargeback on your behalf with AMEX on a goodwill basis. They will likely ask the buyer to get a signed statement from a qualified 3rd party as to it not being as described. If the buyer does that they will then ask them to return the coin to you so you will not be out anything except the postage.

Chargeback Info

festivusmaximus

This was an OFF eBay transaction, and -- as it turns out -- the buyer is no longer registered with eBay. (Go figure.) He did originally contact me through eBay, though. Here is his feedback profile:
techsupersaver




<< <i>

<< <i>Who is the Buyer so we can Block him? >>


Yeah...you'd be doing ALOT of favors by simply typing a name! >>

festivusmaximus

That's not quite true. PayPal's Seller Protection Policy DOES cover outside of eBay sales as long as certain conditions are met: the seller is a verified seller and item was sent via a legitimate delivery service promptly after payment was received. There is no requirement that it be an eBay transaction. Here's the PayPal link:

Paragraph 11 of PayPal user agreement



<< <i>Since the transaction occured outside of eBay, you are not covered under the PayPal seller protection policy. They will try to fight the chargeback on your behalf with AMEX on a goodwill basis. They will likely ask the buyer to get a signed statement from a qualified 3rd party as to it not being as described. If the buyer does that they will then ask them to return the coin to you so you will not be out anything except the postage. >>

FLBuffaloHunter

<< <i>That's not quite true. PayPal's Seller Protection Policy DOES cover outside of eBay sales as long as certain conditions are met: the seller is a verified seller and item was sent via a legitimate delivery service promptly after payment was received. There is no requirement that it be an eBay transaction. Here's the PayPal link:

Paragraph 11 of PayPal user agreement



<< <i>Since the transaction occured outside of eBay, you are not covered under the PayPal seller protection policy. They will try to fight the chargeback on your behalf with AMEX on a goodwill basis. They will likely ask the buyer to get a signed statement from a qualified 3rd party as to it not being as described. If the buyer does that they will then ask them to return the coin to you so you will not be out anything except the postage. >>

>>


Does the payment transaction detail say it is seller protection eligible? As far as I know, one of the requirements was it must be a eBay transaction to be covered.

seatedcoins

<< <i>An NGC PF70UC.



<< <i>What slab was it in? Was it in a slab? >>

>>



How could it be not as described??? A NGC PF70UC is certified as such. How could it qualify as not as described with paypal?

BAJJERFAN

Doesn't AMEX or other CC company require some sort of attempt at dispute resolution before they return a buyer's funds? Afterall if its solicited merchandise and seller is unhappy why shouldn't he be required to return it first?

BECOKA

<< <i>

<< <i>An NGC PF70UC.



<< <i>What slab was it in? Was it in a slab? >>

>>



How could it be not as described??? A NGC PF70UC is certified as such. How could it qualify as not as described with paypal? >>



I think that is kinda the point of this thread.

mrpotatoheadd

I had a similar situation arise a month or so ago (buyer pays through PP with cc, claims item not as described, does chargeback, PP takes money from me to give back to buyer). When that happened, I called PP and asked them what was up- they told me "that that's the policy- if the item is not as described, the buyer can return it and get his money back." I said no problem, except for the fact the buyer hadn't yet returned the item. PP says "Oh, well..."

In my experience, talking with PP about a problem is about as helpful as talking to a tree stump.

coindeuce

You may want to contact iras4 through PM here. I beleive he experienced a $5,000+ chargeback on a coin. His experience might offer some valuable tips on dealing with PayPunk.

Hugegut

Which account did pp take money from, pp account or bank account?

GAT

I would go after the buyer for postal fraud through the Postal Inspectors if the coin wasn't returned. Some on this board will say the Inspectors are worthless. However, I know someone that got their money back due to the Inspectors. A smart a$$ eBay buyer did a Paypal charge back because the seller didn't know about the signature confirmation requirement on items over $250. It took awhile but the seller got his $500. I have reached a point where I am very leery of dealing with Paypal.

sturmgrenadier

If this kind of thing can happen to honest, well-intentioned people who think they are following the rules/doing everything right, why would anyone ever want to become a seller and put up with the hassle (rhetorical question I bet there are few dealers getting rich off of Ebaying (honestly- that's the caveat). I read nothing but horror stories on this forum - most of it bad experiences from sellers who are ripped off by a buyer who utilizes some heretofore unknown provision of the Ebay/Paypal Policy (and admittedly also a fair share from people like me who have bought overgraded / counterfeit junk). Is it true that there is a special, invaluable feeling of accomplishment that comes with being in business for one's self? That's the only reason I can think of for being an Ebay seller/ accepting payment via Paypal (I've been a bi-weekly paycheck guy my whole life).

ProofRainbowRoosevelt

I had a similar incident in March of '07. I followed all the correct procedures, faxed Paypal 32 pages of information and after two excruciating months I still lost my case. Not only did I loose my case, the "chargeback whore" still has my $740.00 item. Paypal fined me $10.00 when the dispute was first opened, then fined me another $25.00 after I lost my case. Thank God I less than $50.00 in my account for them to hold onto. I'm not sure if they could take remaining balance out of my bank account, so I canceled it just to be sure. I refused to pay them the $700.00, so they sent it to a collection agency who called me 6 times a day until I canceled my verizon account.

Paypal truly sucks. I followed all the correct procedures and still lost, lost big. I'm not trying to scare you, just letting others be aware. I hope you have better luck than I did, and hope Paypal fights for you. Good Luck.

LouisCamp

I had almost the same thing happen. You are screwed. Paypal will rule in the customers favor, so the "sellers protection" is void. AMEX more than likely had the customer who couldn't pay their bill do the chargeback so they wouldn't lose. I think AMEX is one of the worst cards that a retailer can accept.

Lou

YaHa

<< <i>It usually takes PP about a month to do their job.

If they shaft you, put a lawyer on them. They will cave fast.

//////////////////



ALL funds in PP should be swept to a bank account at the
end of EVERY business day. >>




A lawyer will cost you more then the coin is worth, call your local news station and tell them what ebay/paypal is doing for thieves nowadays.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>I had a similar situation arise a month or so ago (buyer pays through PP with cc, claims item not as described, does chargeback, PP takes money from me to give back to buyer). When that happened, I called PP and asked them what was up- they told me "that that's the policy- if the item is not as described, the buyer can return it and get his money back." I said no problem, except for the fact the buyer hadn't yet returned the item. PP says "Oh, well..."

In my experience, talking with PP about a problem is about as helpful as talking to a tree stump. >>



Did he ever return it or was he intent on keeping both the item and the money?

Jcarney

I assume you have his address. I'd go to his house and violate a lot more than his privacy.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>Did he ever return it or was he intent on keeping both the item and the money? >>

In my case, the item was eventually returned. It doesn't change the fact that PP didn't bother to check to see if that had happened (item having been returned) before taking money out of my PP account.

ArizonaJack

Paypal caved in on my claim as soon as the wife faxed them on her law firm letterhead, and asked on the phone for the statutory agent ( who do we serve with papers?). Good luck, I understand your anger 100% !!!!

BECOKA

With all of these troubles people are wary of Pay-pal but it sure beats trying to fight a bad check. Those are almost impossible to rectify where here you know AMEX and Paypal have funds you just have to work really d*mn hard to get it.

WinPitcher

Bummer.


Steve

howards

When I have done chargebacks on merchandise, I have been required by my credit card company to provide proof that I shipped the item back to the seller. Amex is negligent here in not doing so, IMO.

WinPitcher

Didn't paypal send the money to Amex?

Steve

Bochiman

Talk to IraS (Ira Stein) he had similar happen to him....with Amex and paypal...and a dishonest "buyer"

charley

It is of some interest to note that AMEX amended their card conditions last year to exclude coins sent by mail and paid by credit card from their insurance/replacement coverage.Respectfully, John Curlis

GFourDriver

Here's what I did a couple of years ago when someone tried to rip me off for about $700. I called the police dept. in the persons home town and talked to a detective. It turned out that he had heard of the person before and promised to pay him a visit. Well the next day, I had a total refund in my PP account and a letter from the jerk saying how sorry he was, that it was all a mistake and get.......this could I please leave him positive feedback.

Please don't take this stupid macho advise or the police will be after you, not him....
<<<I assume you have his address. I'd go to his house and violate a lot more than his privacy.>>>

dorkbar

Here's where I invoke the scorched earth policy--lawyers, guns and money, mutual atomic destruction, no survivors. I cut off my nose to spite my face. I hitchhike to his location, lurk in the bushes, and...well, about now anything might happen. It can't be let go of.

Exactly what percentage of humans are irredeemable zeros these days? The Internet has emboldened the witless to perpetrate schemes they couldn't dream up if they lived to 150.

festivusmaximus

That would be one of my questions.




<< <i>

<< <i>An NGC PF70UC.



<< <i>What slab was it in? Was it in a slab? >>

>>



How could it be not as described??? A NGC PF70UC is certified as such. How could it qualify as not as described with paypal? >>

festivusmaximus

I will do that. Thanks for the tip.



<< <i>You may want to contact iras4 through PM here. I beleive he experienced a $5,000+ chargeback on a coin. His experience might offer some valuable tips on dealing with PayPunk. >>

festivusmaximus

He has the coin, AMEX has my money.



<< <i>Did he ever return it or was he intent on keeping both the item and the money? >>

festivusmaximus

PayPal account. Unfortunately, I had made a few sales in the week before and then went away during the weekend before I got around to moving the funds to my bank account. (Sigh.)



<< <i>Which account did pp take money from, pp account or bank account? >>

festivusmaximus

Yes, that is what PayPal told me.



<< <i>Didn't paypal send the money to Amex?

Steve >>

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>I will do that. Thanks for the tip.



<< <i>You may want to contact iras4 through PM here. I beleive he experienced a $5,000+ chargeback on a coin. His experience might offer some valuable tips on dealing with PayPunk. >>

>>



IIRC Ira didn't recover even close to most of his money. His fatal mistake was accepting a small partial payment which resulted in the legal dogs backing off.

festivusmaximus

IM to Ira Stein has been sent. Thanks for the tip.

I also found his thread and bookmarked it. I will read it tomorrow, when I'm a bit less tired.

I am hesitant to report the buyer until I have SOME idea as to what he actually told AMEX. I do have some friends who are attorneys - I'm guessing that I'll try to pull some favors with them and go the litigation route. It's a lot of money to me but, more importantly, it's a matter of principle -- companies like PayPal and AMEX need to be responsive to those whose money they take.

I'll report the results here.

FLBuffaloHunter

<< <i>IM to Ira Stein has been sent. Thanks for the tip.

I also found his thread and bookmarked it. I will read it tomorrow, when I'm a bit less tired.

I am hesitant to report the buyer until I have SOME idea as to what he actually told AMEX. I do have some friends who are attorneys - I'm guessing that I'll try to pull some favors with them and go the litigation route. It's a lot of money to me but, more importantly, it's a matter of principle -- companies like PayPal and AMEX need to be responsive to those whose money they take.

I'll report the results here. >>


PayPal has not done anything you did not authorize them to do by accepting their terms of service. Likewise, the buyer has chargeback rights and due process must run it's course. That is a chance you are willing to take every time you accept a payment via credit card, through PayPal or not.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>PayPal has not done anything you did not authorize them to do by accepting their terms of service. >>

Would those be the same terms of service where PayPal says that a buyer filing a "not as described" claim is supposed to return the item to the seller?