I have read this all so far. The op won and paid for his item period. Sman screwed up and gave his item to another bidder there fault 100%, THEY TOLD THE OP TO F*** HIMSELF they are 99% wrong there.
The op perhaps was not being reasonable but he did was he was supposed to do he bid and paid.
Scman should have made this situation right and not let a mad customer stay that way, they should know better then to ignore this situation they caused by there negligence and inept customer service.
I will never buy from Sman and will make sure I let others know about there conduct it is shameful and appalling in my opinion.
For all the folks who say they would never to business with Scotsman, I say unless you have been hosed by Scotsman yourself, I think that you would be hard pressed to live up to this commitment. What if they had something you really, really wanted, and the price was fair, etc. ? Are you going to remember that the OP (someone who has never posted here before, BTW) had a bad experience, along with the details of that experience? Remember, as far as we can tell, no fraud or crime was committed--just some cussing.
Were any laws broken that we know of? Not sure exactly-- My opinion is that the buyer of lot #223 does not have legal title to lot #233. I think the dealer that got the wrong lot knew exactly what he was doing and wanted to dispose of it as soon as possible. This was an obvious mistake by the auction house that was exploited by the dealer that got the wrong lot. When something like this occurs it must be corrected. The dealer that got the wrong lot is clearly in the wrong. His reciept will show he bought lot #223 and not lot #233. It is very important to keep your reciepts as this proves. When you knowingly take the wrong lot # from an auction house as described in this thread--You are committing theft. JMO. Can a lawyer please weigh in here? I am sure we would all like to know the answer to this question. Thanks, Bob True the auction house made a big mistake and then made another error- BUT - The person at fault here is the guy that took the wrong lot.
<< <i>Were any laws broken that we know of? Not sure exactly-- My opinion is that the buyer of lot #223 does not have legal title to lot #233. I think the dealer that got the wrong lot knew exactly what he was doing and wanted to dispose of it as soon as possible. This was an obvious mistake by the auction house that was exploited by the dealer that got the wrong lot. When something like this occurs it must be corrected. The dealer that got the wrong lot is clearly in the wrong. His reciept will show he bought lot #223 and not lot #233. It is very important to keep your reciepts as this proves. When you knowingly take the wrong lot # from an auction house as described in this thread--You are committing theft. JMO. Can a lawyer please weigh in here? I am sure we would all like to know the answer to this question. Thanks, Bob True the auction house made a big mistake and then made another error- BUT - The person at fault here is the guy that took the wrong lot. >>
Okay, what I meant is that it does not appear that Scotsman has broken any laws.
I'm thinking the "knowingly" part would be difficult to prove.
Possibly, however, at one point he had to know he had an item in which he did not win. Then again even that can be written off too I assume.
Last week a person was advised that the 5 million was put into his account at a Commerce bank in NYC. The man went to the MGR and assured him that there must be a mistake. NO mistake the Mgr assured him. 3 times the guy said you (the bank) is mistaken and 3 times they assured him that they were correct. Fast forward 2 weeks and 2 million dollars later and the guy is arrested for fraud.
<< <i>For all the folks who say they would never to business with Scotsman, I say unless you have been hosed by Scotsman yourself, I think that you would be hard pressed to live up to this commitment. What if they had something you really, really wanted, and the price was fair, etc. ? Are you going to remember that the OP (someone who has never posted here before, BTW) had a bad experience, along with the details of that experience? Remember, as far as we can tell, no fraud or crime was committed--just some cussing. >>
First, what the heck does it matter how many post someone has here? One post or 21245 makes no defference. And no I will not be hard press even if Scotsman had a coin I wanted, it won't be the first or last time I refused to do business with someone on principle. But if you want to stick up for a business that acts like this, knock your self out!
<< <i>For all the folks who say they would never to business with Scotsman, I say unless you have been hosed by Scotsman yourself, I think that you would be hard pressed to live up to this commitment. What if they had something you really, really wanted, and the price was fair, etc. ? Are you going to remember that the OP (someone who has never posted here before, BTW) had a bad experience, along with the details of that experience? Remember, as far as we can tell, no fraud or crime was committed--just some cussing. >>
First, what the heck does it matter how many post someone has here? One post or 21245 makes no defference. And no I will not be hard press even if Scotsman had a coin I wanted, it won't be the first or last time I refused to do business with someone on principle. But if you want to stick up for a business that acts like this, knock your self out! >>
What matters is that I do not know who the OP is. I do not know how credible he is, his people skills, etc. If say, Russ, whom I know very well, had a bad experience with Scotsman, I would weight that considerably more than some newbie. For all I know, the newbie is the greatest and most honest guy in the world (and I hope this is the case), but I will not let some stranger's bad experience dictate who I do business with in the future.
Now, if someone at Scotsman told me to stick it, I would feel differently.
These dealer flame threads take on a life of their own and months later, no one remembers the details.
<< <i>Everybody makes mistakes. It's how they handle it after the mistake that denotes a good company.
Multiple mistakes = multiple opportunities for handling it to minimize damage.... >>
Very well said TDN
You never really know how good a company is until you have an issue. Then you get to see what a company is made of. There is the sale and then there is the reality. I have found that when you are working with the best organizations, the sale and the reality are the same thing. Unfortunately this is not often the case.
<< <i>What matters is that I do not know who the OP is. I do not know how credible he is, his people skills, etc. If say, Russ, whom I know very well, had a bad experience with Scotsman, I would weight that considerably more than some newbie. For all I know, the newbie is the greatest and most honest guy in the world (and I hope this is the case), but I will not let some stranger's bad experience dictate who I do business with in the future.
Now, if someone at Scotsman told me to stick it, I would feel differently.
These dealer flame threads take on a life of their own and months later, no one remembers the details. >>
Between the OP, Roadrunner's and Deadhorse's posts, that is enough confirmation for me. Even if the OP was being vocal, the owner should have asked to call back at a later time instead of telling a customer to “f--- off”.
<< <i>For all the folks who say they would never to business with Scotsman, I say unless you have been hosed by Scotsman yourself, I think that you would be hard pressed to live up to this commitment. What if they had something you really, really wanted, and the price was fair, etc. ? Are you going to remember that the OP (someone who has never posted here before, BTW) had a bad experience, along with the details of that experience? Remember, as far as we can tell, no fraud or crime was committed--just some cussing. >>
First, what the heck does it matter how many post someone has here? One post or 21245 makes no defference. And no I will not be hard press even if Scotsman had a coin I wanted, it won't be the first or last time I refused to do business with someone on principle. But if you want to stick up for a business that acts like this, knock your self out! >>
What matters is that I do not know who the OP is. I do not know how credible he is, his people skills, etc. If say, Russ, whom I know very well, had a bad experience with Scotsman, I would weight that considerably more than some newbie. For all I know, the newbie is the greatest and most honest guy in the world (and I hope this is the case), but I will not let some stranger's bad experience dictate who I do business with in the future.
Now, if someone at Scotsman told me to stick it, I would feel differently.
These dealer flame threads take on a life of their own and months later, no one remembers the details. >>
RYK is correct, it's not the number of posts but the credibility of the individual posting.
<< <i>What matters is that I do not know who the OP is. I do not know how credible he is, his people skills, etc. If say, Russ, whom I know very well, had a bad experience with Scotsman, I would weight that considerably more than some newbie. For all I know, the newbie is the greatest and most honest guy in the world (and I hope this is the case), but I will not let some stranger's bad experience dictate who I do business with in the future.
Now, if someone at Scotsman told me to stick it, I would feel differently.
These dealer flame threads take on a life of their own and months later, no one remembers the details. >>
Between the OP, Roadrunner's and Deadhorse's posts, that is enough confirmation for me. Even if the OP was being vocal, the owner should have asked to call back at a later time instead of telling a customer to “f--- off”.
JMHO >>
I agree there is enough confirmation for me. Scman proved how they do things in a bad situation.
Excellent companies have policies and procedures in place for the employees to follow to minimize errors. Apparently Scotsman does not have adequate procedures to prevent these types of errors from occurring. This is not the employees fault - the company needs to correct the problem in their procedures.
Personally, I would never think to fire the employee unless they were blatently not following procedure. Scotsman should simply take this incident to improve their procedures so it doesn't happen again. And guess who the best source of info will be to fix things? That's right - the employee that made the mistake.
Scotsman should consider itself lucky to get off the hook for several grand and some bad publicity. It could have been alot worse.
Hopefully we will all hear of what Scotsman has done to correct the problem so it doesn't happen again. If we don't hear from them we must assume that they probably didn't fix it.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
Excellent companies have policies and procedures in place for the employees to follow to minimize errors. Apparently Scotsman does not have adequate procedures to prevent these types of errors from occurring. This is not the employees fault - the company needs to correct the problem in their procedures. >>
Can you assume the company didn't already have procedures in place? Maybe so, but sometimes employees get sloppy. For the auction house, this is a costly mistake, but for the collector that got screwed this might have been a once in a decade opportunity that is now lost. Saying "Oops, we're sorry" isn't enough.
1. if only another bidder had bid $4150 - we would have probably been spared this heartbreaking story, and the auction house would still owe the consignor for the item they handed out in error.
2. if the OP actually believed that there had been an error, how could he have reasonably have expected the auction house to sell him the coins? coins are unique items, (except, of course, pcgs ms and pf 70s). was the auction house supposed to recreate a penny board from the 30s for him? round up a posse and somehow confiscate back the coins which had been liberated from the board and sold in the great pre-dawn dispersal sale of aught-eight?
a mistake was made, the bidder didn't get his coins, he got mad, he got his money back, and he got cussed out.
life goes on, see this as a possible cautionary tale about an auction house whose name starts with an "s," and, as homerunhall says, ENJOY YOUR COINS.
<< <i>That was what I had pictured myself, some big obese guy wearing a ten gallon hat. His pants rest below his waist and his belly falls over the belt like Niagara Falls. He wears some lame ass pullover shirt with a slight tear under the right armpit, the curls of his chest hair show beads of sweat. The heels are worn down from left to right on both shoes. As he is handed the penny board he automatically knows it is a mistake and the calculater that is his mind quickly adds up his rip. His mind has an orgasm.
He waddles away from the table to his own and is confronted by a slime ball even worse, that wants to cherry pick him.
My turn to weigh in, I suppose. First, I have met the principals of Scotsman at coin shows and I've done a satisfactory transaction with them via eBay. Before that, I knew of their business from when I lived in St. Louis. They are (or were) the exclusive U.S. distributor of some of the products of the British Royal Mint.
Second, I've had a very similar bad experience to the OP, not in coins but in art - sculpture, to be precise. I bought a sculpture in one of those cruise ship auctions, it seemed like a pretty good deal, buy now and they ship to you later. After I got home they called me up and claimed it had been accidentally smashed. I was livid! They offerred me an equivalent piece by the same artist. I had no doubt that an equivalent work was available - art isn't coins - but I soured on the whole transaction and demanded, and received, all my money back.
Seven months later I related this story to a competitor who told me he doubted the auction house's story because the true retail price of the piece I won was 40% greater than my winning bid. That left a really bad taste in my mouth. But the competitor probably didn't know what he was talking about. In the final analysis, what mattered is that they owned up to the problem and offerred an equivalent artwork, but I said no. Yet the bitterness of the broken transaction has never entirely gone away.
Third, selling coins is a service business. You can't lose your cool with the customer no matter what - it's unprofessional. Only last week I was rebuked by my boss for yelling on the phone - if I hadn't been able to explain that it was because the guy was calling from eastern Europe and couldn't hear me otherwise I might have been fired!
Fourth, Scotman might have lost a couple of thousand dollars, but coins are their business: the customer lost all the effort put into researching the auctioned goods. If he had been like Andy he would also have wasted travel expenses on the auction. It's all money down the drain for the customer, nothing tax-deductible at all.
Fifth, I think if the Iowa dealer started selling the coins after he knew that the guy who sold them to him didn't have proper title to the goods then the Iowa dealer was knowingly committing fraud.
Salute the automobile: The greatest anti-pollution device in human history! (Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
I think the timeline and some of the who did what is wrong as I understand it
OP - bids on auction and wins -> sends payment Texan is at auction - wins many items - settles - takes coins bought to show next morning Texan gets scooped by Iowan before unpacking Iowan breaks apart set and sells indianheads all day and rest of show OP payment shows up to Sco.. and they can not find his lot Sco.. finally figures out Texan got item and ask him who explains he sold it to Iowan Sco.. contacts Iowan who explains it is sold to many unknown people Sco.. decides to contact OP and tell him the messed up OP decides he got scrUed and lets them know it OP emails auctioneer with threats of filing complaints everywhere auctioneer calls OP to find something agreeable and OP blows up on phone so auctioneer tells him to F-off and hangs up
That is the way I see it from bits and pieces of previous posts
<< <i>I think the timeline and some of the who did what is wrong as I understand it
OP - bids on auction and wins -> sends payment Texan is at auction - wins many items - settles - takes coins bought to show next morning Texan gets scooped by Iowan before unpacking Iowan breaks apart set and sells indianheads all day and rest of show OP payment shows up to Sco.. and they can not find his lot Sco.. finally figures out Texan got item and ask him who explains he sold it to Iowan Sco.. contacts Iowan who explains it is sold to many unknown people Sco.. decides to contact OP and tell him the messed up OP decides he got scrUed and lets them know it OP emails auctioneer with threats of filing complaints everywhere auctioneer calls OP to find something agreeable and OP blows up on phone so auctioneer tells him to F-off and hangs up
That is the way I see it from bits and pieces of previous posts >>
Well stated. Of course, that still does not excuse the auctioneer for using profanity.
<< <i>I think the timeline and some of the who did what is wrong as I understand it
OP - bids on auction and wins -> sends payment Texan is at auction - wins many items - settles - takes coins bought to show next morning Texan gets scooped by Iowan before unpacking Iowan breaks apart set and sells indianheads all day and rest of show OP payment shows up to Sco.. and they can not find his lot Sco.. finally figures out Texan got item and ask him who explains he sold it to Iowan Sco.. contacts Iowan who explains it is sold to many unknown people Sco.. decides to contact OP and tell him the messed up OP decides he got scrUed and lets them know it OP emails auctioneer with threats of filing complaints everywhere auctioneer calls OP to find something agreeable and OP blows up on phone so auctioneer tells him to F-off and hangs up
That is the way I see it from bits and pieces of previous posts >>
Well stated. Of course, that still does not excuse the auctioneer for using profanity. >>
Particularly if the auctioneer is at fault in the first place. Sometimes you just have to sit there and take your lumps if you've made a mistake. I remember having to endure some punk teenager's immature screaming tirade at me for my backing into his car (my fault). You just have to endure things and then make things right.
Edited to add that I did not read the entire thread
After I got home they called me up and claimed it had been accidentally smashed. I was livid! They offerred me an equivalent piece by the same artist. I had no doubt that an equivalent work was available - art isn't coins - but I soured on the whole transaction and demanded, and received, all my money back.
In addition to my money I would have asked for the "smashed remains" to be sent to me. After all, they would be worthless and "proof" is always better than "word".
I'm just unstable enough to buy a plane ticket .... Me too.
No more Scotsman for me ever again... too low class and untrustworthy.
<< I think the timeline and some of the who did what is wrong as I understand it
OP - bids on auction and wins -> sends payment Texan is at auction - wins many items - settles - takes coins bought to show next morning Texan gets scooped by Iowan before unpacking Iowan breaks apart set and sells indianheads all day and rest of show OP payment shows up to Sco.. and they can not find his lot Sco.. finally figures out Texan got item and ask him who explains he sold it to Iowan Sco.. contacts Iowan who explains it is sold to many unknown people Sco.. decides to contact OP and tell him the messed up OP decides he got scrUed and lets them know it OP emails auctioneer with threats of filing complaints everywhere auctioneer calls OP to find something agreeable and OP blows up on phone so auctioneer tells him to F-off and hangs up
That is the way I see it from bits and pieces of previous posts >>
You forgot to mention the part where the auction still managed to cash the op's check.
your timeline is still wrong in that it contains excessive irrelevancies. the fact is, it does'nt really matter what the he11 happened to the alleged coin board, or who the he11 the texan & the iowan are alleged to be.
look, here's the ONLY facts that matter:
1 customer called scotsman w/ a complaint 2 scotsman admitted error & fault for the customer complaint 3 customer unreasonably accused scotsman of collusion 4 scotsman unreasonably told cusotmer to screw himself
so, BOTH parties are guilty of stupidity, which happens to everyone from time to time
the ONLY person w/ a material loss is scotsman . the customer is out nothing, other then the potential upside of the coinboard, which not 1 single person has been able to confirm. for all we know, the coinboard was full of crap coins.
this thread, as usual for this type of issue on this forum, digresses from absurd to downright idiotic, full of innuendos & flat out suppositions. you look at the 4 facts i stated, & the issue becomes clear
<< <i>if I were in the shoes of a winning bidder and just won something that I not only was the high bidder (the winning bidder) fought over, researched for, paid for, check cashed and cleared , deal consumated, just waiting on possession. Then I am going to feel that the property won is mine and the auction house at this point is holding and protecting my property for safe keeping until it is sent out to me. >>
problem here is, as i understand it, the client did'nt wait for confirmation, invoice, etc. he sent pmt. based on some assumption (online high bid maybe?) that he was the high bidder. but as i have always understood this, the auction house has final say on who is awarded a lot.
look, i'm not defending the scotty boyz, they screwed up. but the good news is, the client did'nt have a material loss. what he got was a insult. but he screwed up when he istantly started making accusations of collusion, conspiracy and mafia tactics, when in fact, we have no proof whatsoever of such tactics, just pure circumstantial second hand evidence.
you bet i'd be pissed off too, but he11, that's most of the time anyway.
1. if only another bidder had bid $4150 - we would have probably been spared this heartbreaking story, and the auction house would still owe the consignor for the item they handed out in error.
2. if the OP actually believed that there had been an error, how could he have reasonably have expected the auction house to sell him the coins? coins are unique items, (except, of course, pcgs ms and pf 70s). was the auction house supposed to recreate a penny board from the 30s for him? round up a posse and somehow confiscate back the coins which had been liberated from the board and sold in the great pre-dawn dispersal sale of aught-eight?
a mistake was made, the bidder didn't get his coins, he got mad, he got his money back, and he got cussed out.
life goes on, see this as a possible cautionary tale about an auction house whose name starts with an "s," and, as homerunhall says, ENJOY YOUR COINS. >>
One can imagine how SCOTSMAN treats its' employees , if they crap all over their customers. Emailed this thread to friends and coin club members...thumbs down by nearly all.. the lack of professionalism by Scotsman, will hurt their rep. in the coin community for many a day
I don't have the time to read all of this, but five years ago, something similar happened to me, but I handled it differently. Please read this, as it could avoid the hassles which prompted the original post.
I won an expensive (for me) A.N.R. Mine was an internet bid because I was out of the country. The coin hammered at my bid. However, I was notified that although I had the high bid, that I did not win the coin.
I contacted ANR, asking them why I did not win the coin, explaining that mine was the highest hammer bid. They said that it went for that amount on the floor. I explaining that based on their auction rules, my bid for the same amount came in first, so my bid should be honored. They researched it, agreed with me, tried to get the coin back, and the guy who 'paid' for it refused to return the coin.
As a good faith gesture, I received a sincere apology and a book. I attributed this to being an honest mistake, and didn't get mad about it, although I was disappointed that I did not get the coin which was rightfully mine. Yes, I continued to do business with them.
You don't pay for the coin until you are notified that you have indeed won it. I'll ignore the rest of the details of the OP.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
ok - so what is this jerk's eBay username, so I can avoid him!
I say it could probably be a rigged deal to get more money for the auction house. If not, it is still a bad deal, and I wouldn't want to do business with someone like that. (or maybe the 'Texan' wasn't really a Texan and was his 'bud'.) Or maybe the OP was outbid on the floor, and the AH just didn't want to admit it.
or maybe .....
... so many options - that's why I don't bid on auctions online. Too EZ to get screwed out of deal - plus the juice ... not for me.
<< <i>ok - so what is this jerk's eBay username, so I can avoid him!
I say it could probably be a rigged deal to get more money for the auction house. If not, it is still a bad deal, and I wouldn't want to do business with someone like that. (or maybe the 'Texan' wasn't really a Texan and was his 'bud'.) Or maybe the OP was outbid on the floor, and the AH just didn't want to admit it.
or maybe .....
... so many options - that's why I don't bid on auctions online. Too EZ to get screwed out of deal - plus the juice ... not for me. >>
Why hasn't the Sr. Woodside showed some cajones , and posted himself instead of using a stand-in .... to be his mouthpiece ????????
<< <i>As a good faith gesture, I received a sincere apology and a book. I attributed this to being an honest mistake, and didn't get mad about it, although I was disappointed that I did not get the coin which was rightfully mine. Yes, I continued to do business with them. >>
I could live with that. They agreed they made an error and tried to rectify it. When they couldn't, they apologized and extended a token peace offering. Regardless of the fact that it shouldn't have happened in the first place, they seemed to be civil and contrite.
"to you, a hero is some kind of weird sandwich..."
<< <i>Pretty much everything he wrote was true, but he left out the main reason my dad got so hostile towards him.
No company is going to be 100% perfect every time. >>
But when you run a company the size of yours you have to show more respect to customers even if the customer is way out of line. That's customer service and sometimes you have to kiss the customer's ass even when the customer is way out of pocket. I'm guessing if it were an employee, anyone besides your dad, that person would be jobless right now.
<< <i>'My dad dropped the f bomb because he was po'ed........'
precious. >>
I would have dismissed the f bomb as senility, but if the poster is the son and dad is the owner then the dad isn't exactly an old bitter man that's angry at the world. Looks to be a 40-something and possibly has no people skills: meet father(pottymouth) and son(poster)
I manage a large area for a decent size company. I get to deal with all the "colorful" clients on a daily basis. Any given day I would love to drop the Fbomb and tell them what I think of them. If I did, I wouldn't have a job for very long.
The auction house screwed up, and needs to do something to make this right besides refunding the money. They took the extra step in the wrong direction.
As a result of this story I will never be a client of thiers!
The bidder got his money back, but the auction house has to pay the consignor the full price even though it was given to the wrong person for thousands less. Hardly something they would do on purpose.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>The bidder got his money back, but the auction house has to pay the consignor the full price even though it was given to the wrong person for thousands less. Hardly something they would do on purpose. >>
So it is the OP's fault?
Funny how some dealers will circle the wagons for other dealers. Sorry but there is no excuse for the way (Company S) handled this situation, blame who ever you want but it won't stick!
Comments
The op perhaps was not being reasonable but he did was he was supposed to do he bid and paid.
Scman should have made this situation right and not let a mad customer stay that way, they should know better then to ignore this situation they caused by there negligence and inept customer service.
I will never buy from Sman and will make sure I let others know about there conduct it is shameful and appalling in my opinion.
Multiple mistakes = multiple opportunities for handling it to minimize damage....
Steve
Not sure exactly-- My opinion is that the buyer of lot #223 does not have legal title to lot #233. I think the dealer that got the wrong lot knew exactly what he was doing and wanted to dispose of it as soon as possible. This was an obvious mistake by the auction house that was exploited by the dealer that got the wrong lot. When something like this occurs it must be corrected. The dealer that got the wrong lot is clearly in the wrong. His reciept will show he bought lot #223 and not lot #233. It is very important to keep your reciepts as this proves. When you knowingly take the wrong lot # from an auction house as described in this thread--You are committing theft. JMO.
Can a lawyer please weigh in here? I am sure we would all like to know the answer to this question. Thanks, Bob
True the auction house made a big mistake and then made another error- BUT - The person at fault here is the guy that took the wrong lot.
<< <i>Were any laws broken that we know of?
Not sure exactly-- My opinion is that the buyer of lot #223 does not have legal title to lot #233. I think the dealer that got the wrong lot knew exactly what he was doing and wanted to dispose of it as soon as possible. This was an obvious mistake by the auction house that was exploited by the dealer that got the wrong lot. When something like this occurs it must be corrected. The dealer that got the wrong lot is clearly in the wrong. His reciept will show he bought lot #223 and not lot #233. It is very important to keep your reciepts as this proves. When you knowingly take the wrong lot # from an auction house as described in this thread--You are committing theft. JMO.
Can a lawyer please weigh in here? I am sure we would all like to know the answer to this question. Thanks, Bob
True the auction house made a big mistake and then made another error- BUT - The person at fault here is the guy that took the wrong lot. >>
Okay, what I meant is that it does not appear that Scotsman has broken any laws.
<< <i>When you knowingly take the wrong lot # from an auction house as described in this thread--You are committing theft. JMO. >>
I'm thinking the "knowingly" part would be difficult to prove.
Steve
I'm thinking the "knowingly" part would be difficult to prove.
Possibly, however, at one point he had to know he had an item in which
he did not win. Then again even that can be written off too I assume.
Last week a person was advised that the 5 million was put into his account
at a Commerce bank in NYC. The man went to the MGR and assured him that there
must be a mistake. NO mistake the Mgr assured him. 3 times the guy said you (the bank) is mistaken and 3 times they assured
him that they were correct. Fast forward 2 weeks and 2 million dollars later and the guy is arrested for fraud.
Seems he and the true owner had the same name.
True story.
Does it relate here? I dunno.
Steve
Having been to auctions that I have bid on over 50 lots and won over 20 lots
it is not always easy to remember what lots were won
If he bid on lots 223 and 233 and won 1 and received 1 when he picked up the items,
I could understand his error
Steve
<< <i>For all the folks who say they would never to business with Scotsman, I say unless you have been hosed by Scotsman yourself, I think that you would be hard pressed to live up to this commitment. What if they had something you really, really wanted, and the price was fair, etc. ? Are you going to remember that the OP (someone who has never posted here before, BTW) had a bad experience, along with the details of that experience? Remember, as far as we can tell, no fraud or crime was committed--just some cussing. >>
First, what the heck does it matter how many post someone has here? One post or 21245 makes no defference. And no I will not be hard press even if Scotsman had a coin I wanted, it won't be the first or last time I refused to do business with someone on principle. But if you want to stick up for a business that acts like this, knock your self out!
<< <i>
<< <i>For all the folks who say they would never to business with Scotsman, I say unless you have been hosed by Scotsman yourself, I think that you would be hard pressed to live up to this commitment. What if they had something you really, really wanted, and the price was fair, etc. ? Are you going to remember that the OP (someone who has never posted here before, BTW) had a bad experience, along with the details of that experience? Remember, as far as we can tell, no fraud or crime was committed--just some cussing. >>
First, what the heck does it matter how many post someone has here? One post or 21245 makes no defference. And no I will not be hard press even if Scotsman had a coin I wanted, it won't be the first or last time I refused to do business with someone on principle. But if you want to stick up for a business that acts like this, knock your self out!
What matters is that I do not know who the OP is. I do not know how credible he is, his people skills, etc. If say, Russ, whom I know very well, had a bad experience with Scotsman, I would weight that considerably more than some newbie. For all I know, the newbie is the greatest and most honest guy in the world (and I hope this is the case), but I will not let some stranger's bad experience dictate who I do business with in the future.
Now, if someone at Scotsman told me to stick it, I would feel differently.
These dealer flame threads take on a life of their own and months later, no one remembers the details.
<< <i>Everybody makes mistakes. It's how they handle it after the mistake that denotes a good company.
Multiple mistakes = multiple opportunities for handling it to minimize damage.... >>
Very well said TDN
You never really know how good a company is until you have an issue. Then you get to see what a company is made of. There is the sale and then there is the reality. I have found that when you are working with the best organizations, the sale and the reality are the same thing. Unfortunately this is not often the case.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
<< <i>What matters is that I do not know who the OP is. I do not know how credible he is, his people skills, etc. If say, Russ, whom I know very well, had a bad experience with Scotsman, I would weight that considerably more than some newbie. For all I know, the newbie is the greatest and most honest guy in the world (and I hope this is the case), but I will not let some stranger's bad experience dictate who I do business with in the future.
Now, if someone at Scotsman told me to stick it, I would feel differently.
These dealer flame threads take on a life of their own and months later, no one remembers the details. >>
Between the OP, Roadrunner's and Deadhorse's posts, that is enough confirmation for me. Even if the OP was being vocal, the owner should have asked to call back at a later time instead of telling a customer to “f--- off”.
JMHO
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>For all the folks who say they would never to business with Scotsman, I say unless you have been hosed by Scotsman yourself, I think that you would be hard pressed to live up to this commitment. What if they had something you really, really wanted, and the price was fair, etc. ? Are you going to remember that the OP (someone who has never posted here before, BTW) had a bad experience, along with the details of that experience? Remember, as far as we can tell, no fraud or crime was committed--just some cussing. >>
First, what the heck does it matter how many post someone has here? One post or 21245 makes no defference. And no I will not be hard press even if Scotsman had a coin I wanted, it won't be the first or last time I refused to do business with someone on principle. But if you want to stick up for a business that acts like this, knock your self out!
What matters is that I do not know who the OP is. I do not know how credible he is, his people skills, etc. If say, Russ, whom I know very well, had a bad experience with Scotsman, I would weight that considerably more than some newbie. For all I know, the newbie is the greatest and most honest guy in the world (and I hope this is the case), but I will not let some stranger's bad experience dictate who I do business with in the future.
Now, if someone at Scotsman told me to stick it, I would feel differently.
These dealer flame threads take on a life of their own and months later, no one remembers the details. >>
RYK is correct, it's not the number of posts but the credibility of the individual posting.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
<< <i>
<< <i>What matters is that I do not know who the OP is. I do not know how credible he is, his people skills, etc. If say, Russ, whom I know very well, had a bad experience with Scotsman, I would weight that considerably more than some newbie. For all I know, the newbie is the greatest and most honest guy in the world (and I hope this is the case), but I will not let some stranger's bad experience dictate who I do business with in the future.
Now, if someone at Scotsman told me to stick it, I would feel differently.
These dealer flame threads take on a life of their own and months later, no one remembers the details. >>
Between the OP, Roadrunner's and Deadhorse's posts, that is enough confirmation for me. Even if the OP was being vocal, the owner should have asked to call back at a later time instead of telling a customer to “f--- off”.
JMHO >>
I agree there is enough confirmation for me. Scman proved how they do things in a bad situation.
Excellent companies have policies and procedures in place for the employees to follow to minimize errors. Apparently Scotsman does not have adequate procedures to prevent these types of errors from occurring. This is not the employees fault - the company needs to correct the problem in their procedures.
Personally, I would never think to fire the employee unless they were blatently not following procedure. Scotsman should simply take this incident to improve their procedures so it doesn't happen again. And guess who the best source of info will be to fix things? That's right - the employee that made the mistake.
Scotsman should consider itself lucky to get off the hook for several grand and some bad publicity. It could have been alot worse.
Hopefully we will all hear of what Scotsman has done to correct the problem so it doesn't happen again. If we don't hear from them we must assume that they probably didn't fix it.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
<< <i>I hope nobody got fired over the error.
Excellent companies have policies and procedures in place for the employees to follow to minimize errors. Apparently Scotsman does not have adequate procedures to prevent these types of errors from occurring. This is not the employees fault - the company needs to correct the problem in their procedures. >>
Can you assume the company didn't already have procedures in place? Maybe so, but sometimes employees get sloppy. For the auction house, this is a costly mistake, but for the collector that got screwed this might have been a once in a decade opportunity that is now lost. Saying "Oops, we're sorry" isn't enough.
1. if only another bidder had bid $4150 - we would have probably been spared this heartbreaking story, and the auction house would still owe the consignor for the item they handed out in error.
2. if the OP actually believed that there had been an error, how could he have reasonably have expected the auction house to sell him the coins? coins are unique items, (except, of course, pcgs ms and pf 70s). was the auction house supposed to recreate a penny board from the 30s for him? round up a posse and somehow confiscate back the coins which had been liberated from the board and sold in the great pre-dawn dispersal sale of aught-eight?
a mistake was made, the bidder didn't get his coins, he got mad, he got his money back, and he got cussed out.
life goes on, see this as a possible cautionary tale about an auction house whose name starts with an "s," and, as homerunhall says, ENJOY YOUR COINS.
<< <i>That was what I had pictured myself, some big obese guy wearing a ten gallon hat. His pants rest below his waist and his belly falls over the belt like Niagara Falls. He wears
some lame ass pullover shirt with a slight tear under the right armpit, the curls of his chest hair show beads of sweat. The heels are worn down from left to right
on both shoes. As he is handed the penny board he automatically knows it is a mistake and the calculater that is his mind quickly adds up his rip. His mind has an orgasm.
He waddles away from the table to his own and is confronted by a slime ball even worse, that wants to cherry pick him.
Steve
Keep me out of this.
Hoard the keys.
Second, I've had a very similar bad experience to the OP, not in coins but in art - sculpture, to be precise. I bought a sculpture in one of those cruise ship auctions, it seemed like a pretty good deal, buy now and they ship to you later. After I got home they called me up and claimed it had been accidentally smashed. I was livid! They offerred me an equivalent piece by the same artist. I had no doubt that an equivalent work was available - art isn't coins - but I soured on the whole transaction and demanded, and received, all my money back.
Seven months later I related this story to a competitor who told me he doubted the auction house's story because the true retail price of the piece I won was 40% greater than my winning bid. That left a really bad taste in my mouth. But the competitor probably didn't know what he was talking about. In the final analysis, what mattered is that they owned up to the problem and offerred an equivalent artwork, but I said no. Yet the bitterness of the broken transaction has never entirely gone away.
Third, selling coins is a service business. You can't lose your cool with the customer no matter what - it's unprofessional. Only last week I was rebuked by my boss for yelling on the phone - if I hadn't been able to explain that it was because the guy was calling from eastern Europe and couldn't hear me otherwise I might have been fired!
Fourth, Scotman might have lost a couple of thousand dollars, but coins are their business: the customer lost all the effort put into researching the auctioned goods. If he had been like Andy he would also have wasted travel expenses on the auction. It's all money down the drain for the customer, nothing tax-deductible at all.
Fifth, I think if the Iowa dealer started selling the coins after he knew that the guy who sold them to him didn't have proper title to the goods then the Iowa dealer was knowingly committing fraud.
(Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
OP - bids on auction and wins -> sends payment
Texan is at auction - wins many items - settles - takes coins bought to show next morning
Texan gets scooped by Iowan before unpacking
Iowan breaks apart set and sells indianheads all day and rest of show
OP payment shows up to Sco.. and they can not find his lot
Sco.. finally figures out Texan got item and ask him who explains he sold it to Iowan
Sco.. contacts Iowan who explains it is sold to many unknown people
Sco.. decides to contact OP and tell him the messed up
OP decides he got scrUed and lets them know it
OP emails auctioneer with threats of filing complaints everywhere
auctioneer calls OP to find something agreeable and OP blows up on phone
so auctioneer tells him to F-off and hangs up
That is the way I see it from bits and pieces of previous posts
<< <i>I think the timeline and some of the who did what is wrong as I understand it
OP - bids on auction and wins -> sends payment
Texan is at auction - wins many items - settles - takes coins bought to show next morning
Texan gets scooped by Iowan before unpacking
Iowan breaks apart set and sells indianheads all day and rest of show
OP payment shows up to Sco.. and they can not find his lot
Sco.. finally figures out Texan got item and ask him who explains he sold it to Iowan
Sco.. contacts Iowan who explains it is sold to many unknown people
Sco.. decides to contact OP and tell him the messed up
OP decides he got scrUed and lets them know it
OP emails auctioneer with threats of filing complaints everywhere
auctioneer calls OP to find something agreeable and OP blows up on phone
so auctioneer tells him to F-off and hangs up
That is the way I see it from bits and pieces of previous posts >>
Well stated. Of course, that still does not excuse the auctioneer for using profanity.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think the timeline and some of the who did what is wrong as I understand it
OP - bids on auction and wins -> sends payment
Texan is at auction - wins many items - settles - takes coins bought to show next morning
Texan gets scooped by Iowan before unpacking
Iowan breaks apart set and sells indianheads all day and rest of show
OP payment shows up to Sco.. and they can not find his lot
Sco.. finally figures out Texan got item and ask him who explains he sold it to Iowan
Sco.. contacts Iowan who explains it is sold to many unknown people
Sco.. decides to contact OP and tell him the messed up
OP decides he got scrUed and lets them know it
OP emails auctioneer with threats of filing complaints everywhere
auctioneer calls OP to find something agreeable and OP blows up on phone
so auctioneer tells him to F-off and hangs up
That is the way I see it from bits and pieces of previous posts >>
Well stated. Of course, that still does not excuse the auctioneer for using profanity. >>
Particularly if the auctioneer is at fault in the first place. Sometimes you just have to sit there and take your lumps if you've made a mistake. I remember having to endure some punk teenager's immature screaming tirade at me for my backing into his car (my fault). You just have to endure things and then make things right.
Edited to add that I did not read the entire thread
In addition to my money I would have asked for the "smashed remains" to be sent to me. After all, they would be worthless and "proof" is always better than "word".
I'm just unstable enough to buy a plane ticket .... Me too.
No more Scotsman for me ever again... too low class and untrustworthy.
OP - bids on auction and wins -> sends payment
Texan is at auction - wins many items - settles - takes coins bought to show next morning
Texan gets scooped by Iowan before unpacking
Iowan breaks apart set and sells indianheads all day and rest of show
OP payment shows up to Sco.. and they can not find his lot
Sco.. finally figures out Texan got item and ask him who explains he sold it to Iowan
Sco.. contacts Iowan who explains it is sold to many unknown people
Sco.. decides to contact OP and tell him the messed up
OP decides he got scrUed and lets them know it
OP emails auctioneer with threats of filing complaints everywhere
auctioneer calls OP to find something agreeable and OP blows up on phone
so auctioneer tells him to F-off and hangs up
That is the way I see it from bits and pieces of previous posts >>
You forgot to mention the part where the auction still managed to cash the op's check.
look, here's the ONLY facts that matter:
1 customer called scotsman w/ a complaint
2 scotsman admitted error & fault for the customer complaint
3 customer unreasonably accused scotsman of collusion
4 scotsman unreasonably told cusotmer to screw himself
so, BOTH parties are guilty of stupidity, which happens to everyone from time to time
the ONLY person w/ a material loss is scotsman . the customer is out nothing, other then the potential upside of the coinboard, which not 1 single person has been able to confirm. for all we know, the coinboard was full of crap coins.
this thread, as usual for this type of issue on this forum, digresses from absurd to downright idiotic, full of innuendos & flat out suppositions. you look at the 4 facts i stated, & the issue becomes clear
K S
<< <i>if I were in the shoes of a winning bidder and just won something that I not only was the high bidder (the winning bidder) fought over, researched for, paid for, check cashed and cleared , deal consumated, just waiting on possession. Then I am going to feel that the property won is mine and the auction house at this point is holding and protecting my property for safe keeping until it is sent out to me. >>
problem here is, as i understand it, the client did'nt wait for confirmation, invoice, etc. he sent pmt. based on some assumption (online high bid maybe?) that he was the high bidder. but as i have always understood this, the auction house has final say on who is awarded a lot.
look, i'm not defending the scotty boyz, they screwed up. but the good news is, the client did'nt have a material loss. what he got was a insult. but he screwed up when he istantly started making accusations of collusion, conspiracy and mafia tactics, when in fact, we have no proof whatsoever of such tactics, just pure circumstantial second hand evidence.
you bet i'd be pissed off too, but he11, that's most of the time anyway.
K S
<< <i>two points:
1. if only another bidder had bid $4150 - we would have probably been spared this heartbreaking story, and the auction house would still owe the consignor for the item they handed out in error.
2. if the OP actually believed that there had been an error, how could he have reasonably have expected the auction house to sell him the coins? coins are unique items, (except, of course, pcgs ms and pf 70s). was the auction house supposed to recreate a penny board from the 30s for him? round up a posse and somehow confiscate back the coins which had been liberated from the board and sold in the great pre-dawn dispersal sale of aught-eight?
a mistake was made, the bidder didn't get his coins, he got mad, he got his money back, and he got cussed out.
life goes on, see this as a possible cautionary tale about an auction house whose name starts with an "s," and, as homerunhall says, ENJOY YOUR COINS. >>
One can imagine how SCOTSMAN treats its' employees , if they crap all over their customers.
Emailed this thread to friends and coin club members...thumbs down by nearly all.. the lack of professionalism by Scotsman, will hurt their rep. in the coin community for many a day
precious.
I won an expensive (for me) A.N.R. Mine was an internet bid because I was out of the country. The coin hammered at my bid. However, I was notified that although I had the high bid, that I did not win the coin.
I contacted ANR, asking them why I did not win the coin, explaining that mine was the highest hammer bid. They said that it went for that amount on the floor. I explaining that based on their auction rules, my bid for the same amount came in first, so my bid should be honored. They researched it, agreed with me, tried to get the coin back, and the guy who 'paid' for it refused to return the coin.
As a good faith gesture, I received a sincere apology and a book. I attributed this to being an honest mistake, and didn't get mad about it, although I was disappointed that I did not get the coin which was rightfully mine. Yes, I continued to do business with them.
You don't pay for the coin until you are notified that you have indeed won it. I'll ignore the rest of the details of the OP.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I say it could probably be a rigged deal to get more money for the auction house. If not, it is still a bad deal, and I wouldn't want to do business with someone like that. (or maybe the 'Texan' wasn't really a Texan and was his 'bud'.) Or maybe the OP was outbid on the floor, and the AH just didn't want to admit it.
or maybe .....
... so many options - that's why I don't bid on auctions online. Too EZ to get screwed out of deal - plus the juice ... not for me.
<< <i>ok - so what is this jerk's eBay username, so I can avoid him!
I say it could probably be a rigged deal to get more money for the auction house. If not, it is still a bad deal, and I wouldn't want to do business with someone like that. (or maybe the 'Texan' wasn't really a Texan and was his 'bud'.) Or maybe the OP was outbid on the floor, and the AH just didn't want to admit it.
or maybe .....
... so many options - that's why I don't bid on auctions online. Too EZ to get screwed out of deal - plus the juice ... not for me. >>
Why hasn't the Sr. Woodside showed some cajones , and posted himself instead of using a stand-in .... to be his mouthpiece ????????
<< <i>As a good faith gesture, I received a sincere apology and a book. I attributed this to being an honest mistake, and didn't get mad about it, although I was disappointed that I did not get the coin which was rightfully mine. Yes, I continued to do business with them. >>
I could live with that. They agreed they made an error and tried to rectify it. When they couldn't, they apologized and extended a token peace offering. Regardless of the fact that it shouldn't have happened in the first place, they seemed to be civil and contrite.
<< <i>Pretty much everything he wrote was true, but he left out the main reason my dad got so hostile towards him.
No company is going to be 100% perfect every time. >>
But when you run a company the size of yours you have to show more respect to customers even if the customer is way out of line. That's customer service and sometimes you have to kiss the customer's ass even when the customer is way out of pocket. I'm guessing if it were an employee, anyone besides your dad, that person would be jobless right now.
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#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
<< <i>'My dad dropped the f bomb because he was po'ed........'
precious.
I would have dismissed the f bomb as senility, but if the poster is the son and dad is the owner then the dad isn't exactly an old bitter man that's angry at the world. Looks to be a 40-something and possibly has no people skills:
meet father(pottymouth) and son(poster)
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#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
The auction house screwed up, and needs to do something to make this right besides refunding the money. They took the extra step in the wrong direction.
As a result of this story I will never be a client of thiers!
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https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
<< <i>The bidder got his money back, but the auction house has to pay the consignor the full price even though it was given to the wrong person for thousands less. Hardly something they would do on purpose. >>
So it is the OP's fault?
Funny how some dealers will circle the wagons for other dealers. Sorry but there is no excuse for the way (Company S) handled this situation, blame who ever you want but it won't stick!