<< <i>I bought some coins at a coin auction in London about five months ago. I had flown to London to look at the auction, gone to great expense, and bought some good deals. The auctioneer was robbed a few days later and my coins, among others, were taken. When the auctioneer called to tell me the bad news, I shrugged my shoulders and told him I was glad nobody was hurt. Why get upset when it wasn't going to bring the coins back? Surely, most of us would have done the same thing. So I find the prevalent attitudes in this thread confusing, to say the least. >>
With all due respect, your situation is considerably different than mine.
I've had an experience or three similar to yours, though no robbery was involved and I tend to agree with you in that sort of case.
My attitude was very much like yours.
The Scotsman experience was quite a different matter in many regards.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>oh did dealer A who picked up the more expensive coin board pay the auction house for the lot in full?
did they pay for the other coin board?
all i know is if I, I, picked up the wrong lot i would have an auction house demanding i pay for the crap in full.
you can bet on it. selling it as fast as you can is not an excuse.
i would be hunted down. betcha betcha >>
Yeah! I think you're right.
I just can't seem to get the word "collusion" out of my mind right now. Probably just my imagination, you know, accidents happen.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
I become unclear with bitterness when hearing about these instances taking place and how no one takes responsibility for anything anymore.
Then let me help you get clear. Scotsman did take responsibility, did apologize and did take the financial loss. Their buyer was a self-centered jerk, pushed Scotsman too far, and Scotsman "lost it". It bothers me that we (as a group) are so quick to go easy on the "poor innocent victim collector" and attack the "greedy conniving dealer". Why people tend to behave this way is a subject best suited for the OF, so I'll leave it at that.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Welcome to the forums... sorry about that horrendous experience. Personally, I would state both the auction house name and the name of the individual that cursed you... Cheers, RickO >>
<< <i>At lot pick up the day following the auction, prior to the public entering for the show, a dealer from Texas comes to the table to pick up his auction winnings. He hands over his check, and the auction house employee hands him his coins, but in that stack was my penny board ( I should point out this dealer won a lincoln cent penny board at the sale) lot 233. The auction house employee obviously gave him the wrong lot. Well, now the story gets very interesting. This Texan apparently didn't realize he now had in his possession a board worth 3 times the board he should have received. >>
To me this is BS that the Texan didn't know what he had picked up. No person in their right mind doesn't verify what they bought at auction. No way in hell would I assume they gave me everything I purchased. I have always taken the time to look through and make sure all the lots I won are present, accounted for and CORRECT!!!
The Texan is nothing but a theif. He knew the auction house messed up and he didn't care.
I can understand both sides. The auction house messed up. At least the buyer got their money back.
" Well, now the story gets very interesting. This Texan apparently didn't realize he now had in his possession a board worth 3 times the board he should have received. He then proceeds back to his show table to set up before the doors are open to the public. Then a dealer from Iowa comes by and askes the Texan what he want for the penny board(apparently he still doesn't know what he has) , he quickly names a price, the Iowan says SOLD, hands him a check, and runs away. Now a dealer friend of mine at the show tells me that a commotion was taking place that morning, before the public was let in. The Iowan broke the framed set open on a table , and as quickly as he could, began selling MY COINS"
Maybe the auction house should tell the OP who these people were-----------------BigE
I had a MAJOR auction firm give several lots I won in an auction to an underbidder.
Their excuse? "Computer Error".
They offered no compensation. The only good thing about it was that it never got to the stage of payment, so I didn't have to wrestle them for a refund.
The lots in question are now worth about twice what my winning bid was.
I bought some coins at a coin auction in London about five months ago. I had flown to London to look at the auction, gone to great expense, and bought some good deals. The auctioneer was robbed a few days later and my coins, among others, were taken. When the auctioneer called to tell me the bad news, I shrugged my shoulders and told him I was glad nobody was hurt. Why get upset when it wasn't going to bring the coins back? Surely, most of us would have done the same thing. So I find the prevalent attitudes in this thread confusing, to say the least.
Sorry, but that situation has nothing in common with the Scotsman-Texan-Iowan pinata "grab bag" scenario. I guess we've defined a new level of bottom-feeding, predatory ethics in numismatics: "If it's given to you by mistake, feel free to sell it at no risk with no ramifications." In fact, let's concentrate on the original buyer who got nothing and implicate him in someway. F words are authorized! As far as Scotsman losing money on this scenario, that's the cost of being a dealer and owning up to your mistakes. The auction houses rake a nice steady stream of $$ in year after year. Yet when they lose out on one lot, all heck breaks lose on their end. Why am I not surprised? Ream me up Scottie.
The story of gave the wrong lot to an unnamed dealer from Texas who immediately sold them and we just took the loss dosn't sound right, how many of you dealers would just take the loss without attempting some recourse to recover the loss????
Support your local gunslinger, you never know when you'll need him
The story of gave the wrong lot to an unnamed dealer from Texas who immediately sold them and we just took the loss dosn't sound right, how many of you dealers would just take the loss without attempting some recourse to recover the loss????
I'm sure Scotsman tried to get the coins (or money) back. They may have legal and ethical grounds, but as a practical matter they're probably screwed.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I bought some coins at a coin auction in London about five months ago. I had flown to London to look at the auction, gone to great expense, and bought some good deals. The auctioneer was robbed a few days later and my coins, among others, were taken. When the auctioneer called to tell me the bad news, I shrugged my shoulders and told him I was glad nobody was hurt. Why get upset when it wasn't going to bring the coins back? Surely, most of us would have done the same thing. So I find the prevalent attitudes in this thread confusing, to say the least.
Sorry, but that situation has nothing in common with the Scotsman-Texan-Iowan pinata "grab bag" scenario. I guess we've defined a new level of bottom-feeding, predatory ethics in numismatics: "If it's given to you by mistake, feel free to sell it at no risk with no ramifications." In fact, let's concentrate on the original buyer who got nothing and implicate him in someway. F words are authorized! As far as Scotsman losing money on this scenario, that's the cost of being a dealer and owning up to your mistakes. The auction houses rake a nice steady stream of $$ in year after year. Yet when they lose out on one lot, all heck breaks lose on their end. Why am I not surprised? Ream me up Scottie.
roadrunner >>
Well put. My view of Scotsman is much more negative now. There was no excuse for the lack of professionalism, especially given it was their mistake.
"If it's given to you by mistake, feel free to sell it at no risk with no ramifications." In fact, let's concentrate on the original buyer who got nothing and implicate him in someway"
RR the buyer was made whole, the buyer then wanted more.
It's funny how Scotsman said the OP was "only interested in himself" and even mreurka called the OP "self-centered"....well, DUH!!!!
Why should he care about scotsman, the texas dealer or the supposed Iowan dealer? He SHOULD care about himself. I'm glad scotsman was outted, I just wish the other 2 dealers (if there were even 2 that really existed), were outted as well. This whole thing STINKS in many ways.
Also, a PROFESSIONAL shouldn't get to the point of cussing someone out, particularly if the "professional" was the one who screwed up!
I know that when I go to buy or bid on coins I know what I buy. That dealer took them knowing that thy are not his and said he sold them. So it's not the buyers problem he payed the seller payed so what dos the Auctions House do just takes there commission and tell them to go F them selfs, not right the Auction House should make good to the bidder and seller and make the Dealer pay for it or return it. that will be the right thing to do for all. But that is just me.
<< <i> The story of gave the wrong lot to an unnamed dealer from Texas who immediately sold them and we just took the loss dosn't sound right, how many of you dealers would just take the loss without attempting some recourse to recover the loss????
I'm sure Scotsman tried to get the coins (or money) back. They may have legal and ethical grounds, but as a practical matter they're probably screwed. >>
Then at minmum out the Texas dealer facts are facts and if the story is true let the dealer try to explain his/her actions as that is someone I would not want to deal with is that asking to much.
Support your local gunslinger, you never know when you'll need him
Let's play with a slightly different scenario. Let's say the Texan paid $1000 for the Lincolns and, due to auction staff error, took delivery of both the Lincolns and Indians. The Texan doesn't realize it and brings the coins back to his table. Joe Collector asks to see the penny boards in the Texan's showcase and is quoted $1100. The Texan still doesn't realize there's an extra page of coins in the pile. The collector whips out eleven crisp C-notes and walks away with the coins. Whom should we blame?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Let's play with a slightly different scenario. Let's say the Texan paid $1000 for the Lincolns and, due to auction staff error, took delivery of both the Lincolns and Indians. The Texan doesn't realize it and brings the coins back to his table. Joe Collector asks to see the penny boards in the Texan's showcase and is quoted $1100. The Texan still doesn't realize there's an extra page of coins in the pile. The collector whips out eleven crisp C-notes and walks away with the coins. Whom should we blame? >>
<< <i>Let's play with a slightly different scenario. Let's say the Texan paid $1000 for the Lincolns and, due to auction staff error, took delivery of both the Lincolns and Indians. The Texan doesn't realize it and brings the coins back to his table. Joe Collector asks to see the penny boards in the Texan's showcase and is quoted $1100. The Texan still doesn't realize there's an extra page of coins in the pile. The collector whips out eleven crisp C-notes and walks away with the coins. Whom should we blame? >>
The one armed man
Support your local gunslinger, you never know when you'll need him
<< <i>I have given up major (for me) purchases at live auctions unless myself present
too many things that could go wrong along the way >>
Our own problem and another nasty one that I witnessed recently were both problems that arose even though both of us were present at the live session. So that has nothing to do with it.
How do we know there ever was a Texan coin dealer? How do we know that Scottsman didn't make up some bull chit story because they didn't want to let the coins go because the winning bid was too low? This whole scenario sounds fishy to me. Anyone else feel the same way?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>How do we know there ever was a Texan coin dealer? How do we know that Scottsman didn't make up some bull chit story because they didn't want to let the coins go because the winning bid was too low? This whole scenario sounds fishy to me. Anyone else feel the same way? >>
that's what I was thinking and That's why I felt it was fair to out them if the story was true.
Support your local gunslinger, you never know when you'll need him
<< <i>To me this is BS that the Texan didn't know what he had picked up. No person in their right mind doesn't verify what they bought at auction. No way in hell would I assume they gave me everything I purchased. I have always taken the time to look through and make sure all the lots I won are present, accounted for and CORRECT!!!
The Texan is nothing but a theif. He knew the auction house messed up and he didn't care. >>
I agree. I "might" be able to buy the idea that he didn't notice when he first picked up the lot, but there is no way in hell I'll believe he didn't realize what happened when he started breaking out the coins to sell. This guy is a scumbag, period.
As for the way Scottsman handled it, I'd say my gut reaction is that they blew it. If he told the customer to f off, that was absolutely the wrong approach. HOWEVER, I wasn't listening to the conversation - nor were any of you - so I have no way of determining precisely what triggered that reaction. If the OP was on the phone screaming accusations of impropriety, it would be tempting for anybody to tell him to stick it.
I recently retired from a large corporation that supplies manufactured products. If we screwed up like this we would immediately do several things - (I know some of these don't apply to an auction-type situation, but you will get my drift): 1) Make sure the customer gets a supply of parts by replacing the defective or missing shipments 2) Immediately investigate the root cause of the problem so it can be fixed with irreversible corrective action 3) Look for other ways the same problem could affect other products that could affect other customers 4) Pay for expenses our customers incurred due to our screw ups
Why did we do all this? Because we are in business to sell products to all our customers. Without our customers we have no business. If we do not have quality and manufacturing systems in place to make 100% good products 100% of the time, we have an opportunity to get better. Our customers expect this as they only want what they paid for - no more, no less. Our support staffs were fully capable of handling issues immediately, and they were good at it. It took us a while but we were operating at about 5 bad parts per million produced. That is pretty good, but still room for improvement.
But one other thing we did when we screwed up - we groveled to the customer. I know it hurts when you think you are the "big guy" and the customer is the "little guy". But the customer is the customer and we should be doing everything we can to make the customer happy. Did we run into situations where the customer tried to "punish" us by asking for more than they were entitled to? Sure, but you don't have to agree immediately and you don't have to settle immediately - just agree to work it out. Once the emotion around the event dwindles, then you can settle up when cooler heads prevail.
Yes, Scotsman screwed up and they admitted to it. That is the first positive step - but they have alot to learn about customers. My advice to them is to use this as an opportunity to get better and fix the problem with irreversible corrective action. For example, did they only have one person delivering the auction lots? If so, perhaps it makes more sense to have two people doing that - one to do the work and the other to double check for errors.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
<< <i>How do we know there ever was a Texan coin dealer? How do we know that Scottsman didn't make up some bull chit story because they didn't want to let the coins go because the winning bid was too low? This whole scenario sounds fishy to me. Anyone else feel the same way? >>
Because this all happened out in the open at a public show. I doubt they are stupid enough to concoct a story that would be so easy to disprove.
Somehow the dealer that got the coins by mistake...... I just can't get this picture out of my head of the typical hands shaking with greed and sweat dripping down his forehead as he was unloading this rip.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
" Immediately investigate the root cause of the problem so it can be fixed with irreversible corrective action"
Yes I remember these days in corporate America and it all worked well until they hired the new people or , god forbid they improved the software.....combine this with high turnover and bam reverseable corrective action, anyway thats not the point of this thread.
<< <i>Somehow the dealer that got the coins by mistake...... I just can't get this picture out of my head of the typical hands shaking with greed and sweat dripping down his forehead as he was unloading this rip. >>
Funny, but I have a similar mental image.
Cameonut,
Excellent post. I have found that the coin biz does not seem to operate on the principles of regular business, and many of the so-called coin "professionals", are anything but professional.
One thing that Scotsman cannot immediately do is remanufacture the missing set. I bet they would if they could, but it is a unique item. It could conceivably be reconstructed, but not to the exact specs of the original and not immediately.
Thanks RYK I agree - coins and manufacturing are not the same. I would not think that they could easily replace items that may be unique. I was trying to create a mindset that would be good for the hobby.
But the main point I am trying to drive home is what you alluded to. The coin business does not seem to run on normal business principles. Certainly I would think that Scotsman would consider themselves to be professionals. Why not behave like the professionals do instead of the rest? One way to grow is to be professional and set yourself apart from the non-professionals.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
That was what I had pictured myself, some big obese guy wearing a ten gallon hat. His pants rest below his waist and his belly falls over the belt like Niagara Falls. He wears some lame ass pullover shirt with a slight tear under the right armpit, the curls of his chest hair show beads of sweat. The heels are worn down from left to right on both shoes. As he is handed the penny board he automatically knows it is a mistake and the calculater that is his mind quickly adds up his rip. His mind has an orgasm.
He waddles away from the table to his own and is confronted by a slime ball even worse, that wants to cherry pick him.
<< <i>Thanks RYK I agree - coins and manufacturing are not the same. I would not think that they could easily replace items that may be unique. I was trying to create a mindset that would be good for the hobby.
But the main point I am trying to drive home is what you alluded to. The coin business does not seem to run on normal business principles. Certainly I would think that Scotsman would consider themselves to be professionals. Why not behave like the professionals do instead of the rest? One way to grow is to be professional and set yourself apart from the non-professionals. >>
I could not agree more. No firm is more professional than Heritage, IMO, and their professionalism has contributed to their tremendous success. As large as they are, they make many mistakes, but they know how to handle them and make things right.
Then let me help you get clear. Scotsman did take responsibility, did apologize and did take the financial loss. Their buyer was a self-centered jerk, pushed Scotsman too far, and Scotsman "lost it". It bothers me that we (as a group) are so quick to go easy on the "poor innocent victim collector" and attack the "greedy conniving dealer". Why people tend to behave this way is a subject best suited for the OF, so I'll leave it at that
That is one side of the story
I would be interested in hearing a tape of the telephone conversations that occured (too bad none exist)
it is possible that something was said or in a tone that the auctioneer felt objectionable and he responded in the way he did
Our own problem and another nasty one that I witnessed recently were both problems that arose even though both of us were present at the live session. So that has nothing to do with it.
but it probably waqs settled then or with-in a day
it doesn't take a couple weeks of phone-tag or email-tag before it is resolved
I recently retired from a large corporation that supplies manufactured products. If we screwed up like this we would immediately do several things - (I know some of these don't apply to an auction-type situation, but you will get my drift): 1) Make sure the customer gets a supply of parts by replacing the defective or missing shipments 2) Immediately investigate the root cause of the problem so it can be fixed with irreversible corrective action 3) Look for other ways the same problem could affect other products that could affect other customers 4) Pay for expenses our customers incurred due to our screw ups
Why did we do all this? Because we are in business to sell products to all our customers. Without our customers we have no business. If we do not have quality and manufacturing systems in place to make 100% good products 100% of the time, we have an opportunity to get better. Our customers expect this as they only want what they paid for - no more, no less. Our support staffs were fully capable of handling issues immediately, and they were good at it. It took us a while but we were operating at about 5 bad parts per million produced. That is pretty good, but still room for improvement.
But one other thing we did when we screwed up - we groveled to the customer. I know it hurts when you think you are the "big guy" and the customer is the "little guy". But the customer is the customer and we should be doing everything we can to make the customer happy. Did we run into situations where the customer tried to "punish" us by asking for more than they were entitled to? Sure, but you don't have to agree immediately and you don't have to settle immediately - just agree to work it out. Once the emotion around the event dwindles, then you can settle up when cooler heads prevail.
Yes, Scotsman screwed up and they admitted to it. That is the first positive step - but they have alot to learn about customers. My advice to them is to use this as an opportunity to get better and fix the problem with irreversible corrective action. For example, did they only have one person delivering the auction lots? If so, perhaps it makes more sense to have two people doing that - one to do the work and the other to double check for errors. >>
<< <i>Our own problem and another nasty one that I witnessed recently were both problems that arose even though both of us were present at the live session. So that has nothing to do with it.
but it probably waqs settled then or with-in a day
it doesn't take a couple weeks of phone-tag or email-tag before it is resolved >>
Wrong on both counts. Ours was settled several weeks later after myriad calls and emails, while the other one was never resolved.
To add my two cents, I believe that the transaction between Scotsman and the Texas dealer has nothing to do with the original misgiving. As a businessman, your customer (even the flawed ones) is what it's all about. We all realize that they don't have the capability to give the customer what he won, but an amicable replacement must be offered. Cash back is not what a customer wants, and certainly not profanity. From reading these postings, Scotsman needs to go back to 'customer relations' class. I'm sure that these threads will have cost them much business. To make up for this mess, a public reconciliation must be made between these parties.
<< I could not agree more. No firm is more professional than Heritage, IMO, and their professionalism has contributed to their tremendous success. As large as they are, they make many mistakes, but they know how to handle them and make things right. >>
I agree 100%. I have bought alot from Heritage in the last year and have to say, every question, email, phone call has been answered in really short time. Every issue I had they were more than ready to make it right.
Comments
<< <i>I bought some coins at a coin auction in London about five months ago. I had flown to London to look at the auction, gone to great expense, and bought some good deals. The auctioneer was robbed a few days later and my coins, among others, were taken. When the auctioneer called to tell me the bad news, I shrugged my shoulders and told him I was glad nobody was hurt. Why get upset when it wasn't going to bring the coins back? Surely, most of us would have done the same thing. So I find the prevalent attitudes in this thread confusing, to say the least. >>
With all due respect, your situation is considerably different than mine.
I've had an experience or three similar to yours, though no robbery was involved and I tend to agree with you in that sort of case.
My attitude was very much like yours.
The Scotsman experience was quite a different matter in many regards.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>oh did dealer A who picked up the more expensive coin board pay
the auction house for the lot in full?
did they pay for the other coin board?
all i know is if I, I, picked up the wrong lot i would have an auction
house demanding i pay for the crap in full.
you can bet on it. selling it as fast as you can is not an excuse.
i would be hunted down. betcha betcha >>
Yeah! I think you're right.
I just can't seem to get the word "collusion" out of my mind right now. Probably just my imagination, you know, accidents happen.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Then let me help you get clear. Scotsman did take responsibility, did apologize and did take the financial loss. Their buyer was a self-centered jerk, pushed Scotsman too far, and Scotsman "lost it". It bothers me that we (as a group) are so quick to go easy on the "poor innocent victim collector" and attack the "greedy conniving dealer". Why people tend to behave this way is a subject best suited for the OF, so I'll leave it at that.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Welcome to the forums... sorry about that horrendous experience. Personally, I would state both the auction house name and the name of the individual that cursed you... Cheers, RickO >>
<< <i>At lot pick up the day following the auction, prior to the public entering for the show, a dealer from Texas comes to
the table to pick up his auction winnings. He hands over his check, and the auction house employee hands him his coins,
but in that stack was my penny board ( I should point out this dealer won a lincoln cent penny board at the sale) lot 233.
The auction house employee obviously gave him the wrong lot. Well, now the story gets very interesting. This Texan
apparently didn't realize he now had in his possession a board worth 3 times the board he should have received. >>
To me this is BS that the Texan didn't know what he had picked up. No person in their right mind doesn't verify what they bought at auction. No way in hell would I assume they gave me everything I purchased. I have always taken the time to look through and make sure all the lots I won are present, accounted for and CORRECT!!!
The Texan is nothing but a theif. He knew the auction house messed up and he didn't care.
I can understand both sides. The auction house messed up. At least the buyer got their money back.
apparently didn't realize he now had in his possession a board worth 3 times the board he should have received.
He then proceeds back to his show table to set up before the doors are open to the public. Then a dealer from Iowa comes
by and askes the Texan what he want for the penny board(apparently he still doesn't know what he has) , he quickly names a price, the Iowan says SOLD, hands him a check, and runs away. Now a dealer friend of mine at the show
tells me that a commotion was taking place that morning, before the public was let in. The Iowan broke the framed set open
on a table , and as quickly as he could, began selling MY COINS"
Maybe the auction house should tell the OP who these people were
Their excuse? "Computer Error".
They offered no compensation. The only good thing about it was that it never got to the stage of payment, so I didn't have to wrestle them for a refund.
The lots in question are now worth about twice what my winning bid was.
Sorry, but that situation has nothing in common with the Scotsman-Texan-Iowan pinata "grab bag" scenario. I guess we've defined a new level of bottom-feeding, predatory ethics in numismatics: "If it's given to you by mistake, feel free to sell it at no risk with no ramifications." In fact, let's concentrate on the original buyer who got nothing and implicate him in someway. F words are authorized! As far as Scotsman losing money on this scenario, that's the cost of being a dealer and owning up to your mistakes. The auction houses rake a nice steady stream of $$ in year after year. Yet when they lose out on one lot, all heck breaks lose on their end. Why am I not surprised? Ream me up Scottie.
roadrunner
Believe they somehow recouped that loss.
Steve
roadrunner
I'm sure Scotsman tried to get the coins (or money) back. They may have legal and ethical grounds, but as a practical matter they're probably screwed.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
-David
<< <i>I bought some coins at a coin auction in London about five months ago. I had flown to London to look at the auction, gone to great expense, and bought some good deals. The auctioneer was robbed a few days later and my coins, among others, were taken. When the auctioneer called to tell me the bad news, I shrugged my shoulders and told him I was glad nobody was hurt. Why get upset when it wasn't going to bring the coins back? Surely, most of us would have done the same thing. So I find the prevalent attitudes in this thread confusing, to say the least.
Sorry, but that situation has nothing in common with the Scotsman-Texan-Iowan pinata "grab bag" scenario. I guess we've defined a new level of bottom-feeding, predatory ethics in numismatics: "If it's given to you by mistake, feel free to sell it at no risk with no ramifications." In fact, let's concentrate on the original buyer who got nothing and implicate him in someway. F words are authorized! As far as Scotsman losing money on this scenario, that's the cost of being a dealer and owning up to your mistakes. The auction houses rake a nice steady stream of $$ in year after year. Yet when they lose out on one lot, all heck breaks lose on their end. Why am I not surprised? Ream me up Scottie.
roadrunner >>
Well put. My view of Scotsman is much more negative now. There was no excuse for the lack of professionalism, especially given it was their mistake.
RR the buyer was made whole, the buyer then wanted more.
Why should he care about scotsman, the texas dealer or the supposed Iowan dealer? He SHOULD care about himself.
I'm glad scotsman was outted, I just wish the other 2 dealers (if there were even 2 that really existed), were outted as well. This whole thing STINKS in many ways.
Also, a PROFESSIONAL shouldn't get to the point of cussing someone out, particularly if the "professional" was the one who screwed up!
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Hoard the keys.
<< <i> The story of gave the wrong lot to an unnamed dealer from Texas who immediately sold them and we just took the loss dosn't sound right, how many of you dealers would just take the loss without attempting some recourse to recover the loss????
I'm sure Scotsman tried to get the coins (or money) back. They may have legal and ethical grounds, but as a practical matter they're probably screwed. >>
Then at minmum out the Texas dealer facts are facts and if the story is true let the dealer try to explain his/her actions as that is someone I would not want to deal with is that asking to much.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Let's play with a slightly different scenario. Let's say the Texan paid $1000 for the Lincolns and, due to auction staff error, took delivery of both the Lincolns and Indians. The Texan doesn't realize it and brings the coins back to his table. Joe Collector asks to see the penny boards in the Texan's showcase and is quoted $1100. The Texan still doesn't realize there's an extra page of coins in the pile. The collector whips out eleven crisp C-notes and walks away with the coins. Whom should we blame? >>
Let me guess...you want to blame the OP?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Not sure I understand your point?
Are you saying you actually believe the 'Texan' just grabbed his winnings w/o looking?
I guess it is possible, the bottom line is he found out and did basically nothing.
The whole scenario stinks.
Steve
<< <i>Let's play with a slightly different scenario. Let's say the Texan paid $1000 for the Lincolns and, due to auction staff error, took delivery of both the Lincolns and Indians. The Texan doesn't realize it and brings the coins back to his table. Joe Collector asks to see the penny boards in the Texan's showcase and is quoted $1100. The Texan still doesn't realize there's an extra page of coins in the pile. The collector whips out eleven crisp C-notes and walks away with the coins. Whom should we blame? >>
The one armed man
<< <i>I have given up major (for me) purchases at live auctions unless myself present
too many things that could go wrong along the way >>
Our own problem and another nasty one that I witnessed recently were both problems that arose even though both of us were present at the live session. So that has nothing to do with it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>How do we know there ever was a Texan coin dealer? How do we know that Scottsman didn't make up some bull chit story because they didn't want to let the coins go because the winning bid was too low? This whole scenario sounds fishy to me. Anyone else feel the same way? >>
that's what I was thinking and That's why I felt it was fair to out them if the story was true.
never mind 81.
<< <i>To me this is BS that the Texan didn't know what he had picked up. No person in their right mind doesn't verify what they bought at auction. No way in hell would I assume they gave me everything I purchased. I have always taken the time to look through and make sure all the lots I won are present, accounted for and CORRECT!!!
The Texan is nothing but a theif. He knew the auction house messed up and he didn't care. >>
I agree. I "might" be able to buy the idea that he didn't notice when he first picked up the lot, but there is no way in hell I'll believe he didn't realize what happened when he started breaking out the coins to sell. This guy is a scumbag, period.
As for the way Scottsman handled it, I'd say my gut reaction is that they blew it. If he told the customer to f off, that was absolutely the wrong approach. HOWEVER, I wasn't listening to the conversation - nor were any of you - so I have no way of determining precisely what triggered that reaction. If the OP was on the phone screaming accusations of impropriety, it would be tempting for anybody to tell him to stick it.
Russ, NCNE
I recently retired from a large corporation that supplies manufactured products. If we screwed up like this we would immediately do several things - (I know some of these don't apply to an auction-type situation, but you will get my drift):
1) Make sure the customer gets a supply of parts by replacing the defective or missing shipments
2) Immediately investigate the root cause of the problem so it can be fixed with irreversible corrective action
3) Look for other ways the same problem could affect other products that could affect other customers
4) Pay for expenses our customers incurred due to our screw ups
Why did we do all this? Because we are in business to sell products to all our customers. Without our customers we have no business. If we do not have quality and manufacturing systems in place to make 100% good products 100% of the time, we have an opportunity to get better. Our customers expect this as they only want what they paid for - no more, no less. Our support staffs were fully capable of handling issues immediately, and they were good at it. It took us a while but we were operating at about 5 bad parts per million produced. That is pretty good, but still room for improvement.
But one other thing we did when we screwed up - we groveled to the customer. I know it hurts when you think you are the "big guy" and the customer is the "little guy". But the customer is the customer and we should be doing everything we can to make the customer happy. Did we run into situations where the customer tried to "punish" us by asking for more than they were entitled to? Sure, but you don't have to agree immediately and you don't have to settle immediately - just agree to work it out. Once the emotion around the event dwindles, then you can settle up when cooler heads prevail.
Yes, Scotsman screwed up and they admitted to it. That is the first positive step - but they have alot to learn about customers. My advice to them is to use this as an opportunity to get better and fix the problem with irreversible corrective action. For example, did they only have one person delivering the auction lots? If so, perhaps it makes more sense to have two people doing that - one to do the work and the other to double check for errors.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
<< <i>How do we know there ever was a Texan coin dealer? How do we know that Scottsman didn't make up some bull chit story because they didn't want to let the coins go because the winning bid was too low? This whole scenario sounds fishy to me. Anyone else feel the same way? >>
Because this all happened out in the open at a public show. I doubt they are stupid enough to concoct a story that would be so easy to disprove.
Russ, NCNE
Yes I remember these days in corporate America and it all worked well until they hired the new people or , god forbid they improved the software.....combine this with high turnover and bam reverseable corrective action, anyway thats not the point of this thread.
Were any laws broken that we know of?
<< <i>Somehow the dealer that got the coins by mistake...... I just can't get this picture out of my head of the typical hands shaking with greed and sweat dripping down his forehead as he was unloading this rip. >>
Funny, but I have a similar mental image.
Cameonut,
Excellent post. I have found that the coin biz does not seem to operate on the principles of regular business, and many of the so-called coin "professionals", are anything but professional.
One thing that Scotsman cannot immediately do is remanufacture the missing set. I bet they would if they could, but it is a unique item. It could conceivably be reconstructed, but not to the exact specs of the original and not immediately.
<< <i>So, the only thing I can suggest to coin collectors on this board is that they find out for themselves what type of company we are. >>
You told a customer to "F--- himself" in a service related industry? I think that pretty much said it all.
I agree - coins and manufacturing are not the same. I would not think that they could easily replace items that may be unique. I was trying to create a mindset that would be good for the hobby.
But the main point I am trying to drive home is what you alluded to. The coin business does not seem to run on normal business principles. Certainly I would think that Scotsman would consider themselves to be professionals. Why not behave like the professionals do instead of the rest? One way to grow is to be professional and set yourself apart from the non-professionals.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
some lame ass pullover shirt with a slight tear under the right armpit, the curls of his chest hair show beads of sweat. The heels are worn down from left to right
on both shoes. As he is handed the penny board he automatically knows it is a mistake and the calculater that is his mind quickly adds up his rip. His mind has an orgasm.
He waddles away from the table to his own and is confronted by a slime ball even worse, that wants to cherry pick him.
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>So, the only thing I can suggest to coin collectors on this board is that they find out for themselves what type of company we are. >>
You told a customer to "F--- himself" in a service related industry? I think that pretty much said it all. >>
I agree.
<< <i>Thanks RYK
I agree - coins and manufacturing are not the same. I would not think that they could easily replace items that may be unique. I was trying to create a mindset that would be good for the hobby.
But the main point I am trying to drive home is what you alluded to. The coin business does not seem to run on normal business principles. Certainly I would think that Scotsman would consider themselves to be professionals. Why not behave like the professionals do instead of the rest? One way to grow is to be professional and set yourself apart from the non-professionals. >>
I could not agree more. No firm is more professional than Heritage, IMO, and their professionalism has contributed to their tremendous success. As large as they are, they make many mistakes, but they know how to handle them and make things right.
That is one side of the story
I would be interested in hearing a tape of the telephone conversations that occured
(too bad none exist)
it is possible that something was said or in a tone that the auctioneer felt objectionable and he responded in the way he did
Our own problem and another nasty one that I witnessed recently were both problems that arose even though both of us were present at the live session. So that has nothing to do with it.
but it probably waqs settled then or with-in a day
it doesn't take a couple weeks of phone-tag or email-tag before it is resolved
<< <i>This has been an interesting read.
I recently retired from a large corporation that supplies manufactured products. If we screwed up like this we would immediately do several things - (I know some of these don't apply to an auction-type situation, but you will get my drift):
1) Make sure the customer gets a supply of parts by replacing the defective or missing shipments
2) Immediately investigate the root cause of the problem so it can be fixed with irreversible corrective action
3) Look for other ways the same problem could affect other products that could affect other customers
4) Pay for expenses our customers incurred due to our screw ups
Why did we do all this? Because we are in business to sell products to all our customers. Without our customers we have no business. If we do not have quality and manufacturing systems in place to make 100% good products 100% of the time, we have an opportunity to get better. Our customers expect this as they only want what they paid for - no more, no less. Our support staffs were fully capable of handling issues immediately, and they were good at it. It took us a while but we were operating at about 5 bad parts per million produced. That is pretty good, but still room for improvement.
But one other thing we did when we screwed up - we groveled to the customer. I know it hurts when you think you are the "big guy" and the customer is the "little guy". But the customer is the customer and we should be doing everything we can to make the customer happy. Did we run into situations where the customer tried to "punish" us by asking for more than they were entitled to? Sure, but you don't have to agree immediately and you don't have to settle immediately - just agree to work it out. Once the emotion around the event dwindles, then you can settle up when cooler heads prevail.
Yes, Scotsman screwed up and they admitted to it. That is the first positive step - but they have alot to learn about customers. My advice to them is to use this as an opportunity to get better and fix the problem with irreversible corrective action. For example, did they only have one person delivering the auction lots? If so, perhaps it makes more sense to have two people doing that - one to do the work and the other to double check for errors. >>
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
<< <i>Our own problem and another nasty one that I witnessed recently were both problems that arose even though both of us were present at the live session. So that has nothing to do with it.
but it probably waqs settled then or with-in a day
it doesn't take a couple weeks of phone-tag or email-tag before it is resolved >>
Wrong on both counts. Ours was settled several weeks later after myriad calls and emails, while the other one was never resolved.
I agree 100%. I have bought alot from Heritage in the last year and have to say, every question, email, phone call has been answered in really short time. Every issue I had they were more than ready to make it right.
Heritage is in a class of their own IMHO.