Should we out people who reneg on paying?

mrearlygold · February 10, 2008 3:45AM

Have a communication today from a guy who purchased a 1922 St Gaudens in MS-62 on Ebay 7 days ago. The customer sent me an email and told me the check would be a little late because of bad weather in Ohio. I had no problem with that. However consider that we have not been paid and today receive the following . Look at the way this was worded and tell me what you think.I've written my opinion after these letters below ( by the way there's several more and this is becoming a multi-hour long issue.

From Buyer
Q: Greetings, I've long since sent you a check for this 1922 DBL Eagle. I see that it has not cleared yet. So, I assume that it is safe to say that you haven't shipped it yet. I wasn't thinking straight when I bid on it. It was not the coin I wanted. I am asking if it might be possible to see what else you have that I might really be interested in and apply that money to something else. If we can work something out, that would be great. If not, I will take the coin in good faith for my mistake and figure out what to do with it when I get it. Thanks, Whatever you might be able to do for me would be greatly appreciated. Mark XXXXX

A 2nd communication from this fellow:

Q: Greetings, If you received my previos email, then you know I am interested in swapping the 1922 Dbl Eagle I've purchsed but has not been shipped yet. I have looked at the coins you have available. - You have a lot of coins. I tried to look at them all but I got worn out. I did find a couple I am interested in. One I did not find is a 1907 Liberty Dbl Eagle. I did find three that I might be interested in if you are willing to make the swap. 1) Gold Eagles - 1892 $10 NGC MS61 : 6 2)Gold Eagles - 1881-S $10 NGC MS61 3)1Half Eagles - 1861 $5 NGC AU55 I may just wnt two of the 1892 Eagle or some combination of the others. If this is something we can work out, let me know. I will send you any difference. Thanks again for your consideration. Mark XXXX FYI : right now I am most interested in 1892, 1907, 1912. (1919), 1920, coins

I advised that we have not been paid and that's why the item hasn't shipped. I further advised that a deal is a deal and if he is not happy with this then I suggested the order be terminated and that will be that. I do not wish to do any other business with this buyer.

Now I'm getting multiple responses on the ebay interface which is time consuming.

My position is simple. This is a bullion related item. You order a bullion related item you pay for it. Simple. In this case I would prefer to simply cancel the order so we can get the fee returned and be done with it. What say you?

claychaser · February 10, 2008 3:48AM

Out him! This is a simple "take it or leave it" auction, he named his price and won the auction. He needs to pay, period. A lost check is simple - do a stop pay at the bank, and reissue the check two days later.

19Lyds · February 10, 2008 3:52AM

It appears that your mind is already made up on the matter but I would not out this buyer as he/she has not renegged on paying, just trying to negotiate for something else. I wouldn't have a problem with this scenario but thats just me.

Edited to add: Given the seriousness of the storms out East, I'd give the check another couple of days to arrive. Heck, even the US Mint distribution center closed up.

lope208 · February 10, 2008 3:54AM

Agreed. Although he doesn't sound "completely" sketchy just yet, it might help if you stated "no returns on bullion related items".

But he should definitely pay for the item, let him re-list it himself.

Edited to add: Why not just honor whatever his initial payment was for trade (if and when you receive it)? No need to reprice. Just credit current value and let him pay more if he wants an upgrade.

nurmaler · February 10, 2008 3:55AM

I too am fine when buyers change their mind, I also offer a return policy. What kind of return policy do you offer?

derryb · February 10, 2008 3:58AM

I would like to block a buyer like this: out him.

BECOKA · February 10, 2008 4:01AM

Tell him that when if the check arrives you will send him what he wanted. If he does not want it tell him you will have the auction annulled and that he will have to agree to the e-bay terms.

BBN · February 10, 2008 4:17AM

I'm not quite buying the "I wasn't thinking straight" excuse. I'm guessing he either got buyers remorse or is fickle and decided he wants something else. If a person isn't think straight when making the decision to make a $1,000+ purchase then that person needs to step far away from their computer and stay away from ebay.

mrearlygold · February 10, 2008 4:19AM

A deal is a deal. If you say it's daytime right now, I don't want to have to look outside to confirm it. This "buyer" bought a bullion related item and then, despite the "payment must be received within 5 days" on the listing and invoice chose to ask for more time because of bad weather.

I had no problem with that. That doesn't mean I was happy about it. You make a commitment, you keep it. He broke that commitment.

Now to send me a letter 7 days later and write it in such a way to put some of the responsibility on me ( you haven't shipped it yet? ) when I haven't even been paid and then talk about a new fantasy list of what the buyer may or may not be interested in which are all over the place, forget it. I would prefer to not do business with this type of person and this as far as I'm concerned is a reneg.

The buyer is betagammarad

While we all make mistakes, had this "buyer" been straight with me , I probably would have let it slide. But he's playing. And I don't wan t to play in return.

More than an hour of time blown on this.

Thank you all for illuminating your positions on such a thing. Some good people here

mrearlygold · February 10, 2008 4:22AM

<< I too am fine when buyers change their mind, I also offer a return policy. What kind of return policy do you offer? >>

There is no return on bullion related coins. What planet do you reside on?

Elcontador · February 10, 2008 4:25AM

This is but one of the many reasons I have nothing to do with e-bay. You really don't know who you are dealing with. A deal is a deal. If he gets the coin and doesn't like it, and you have a return policy, you should honor it.

The most precious thing one has is his / her reputation. If some doesn't honor his / her promise, as far as I am concerned, said individual is a bowel movement with legs.

By all means, I think you are providing a public service to warn others of people who do not honor their promise to pay.

ricko · February 10, 2008 4:28AM

I would, if the check ever gets there, hold him to the deal. Then block him. Cheers, RickO

percyb · February 10, 2008 4:31AM

I wouldn't out him. He only had second thoughts about what he wanted to purchase...it happens. Why not see if you can work a deal out. You're still getting his money. It shouldn't be that big a deal. Just MHO.

Julio · February 10, 2008 4:43AM

I would not out him, but I would not do business with him in the future.

He may be new. You might consider stating one more time your business rules and these are the bedrock of your business. You might be suprised by the reply but I doubt it.

If the reply read something like this, I would even give him a 2nd chance. Now that I understand I'm somewhat ashamed, I really believed this was how this is done. I do appreciate the help and I now feel somewhat naive to have attempted to bargain after we had already shook hands. Sincerely, XXXX. jws

sinin1 · February 10, 2008 4:57AM

The guy has 631 high/winning bids in last month

I doubt you are going to get a check, and if you do
I would be surprised if it clears

keep your vision -
what is your usual time frame for filing NPB

chiefbob · February 10, 2008 4:58AM

FWIW, there are two sides to a story. This in no way reflects on Tom's specific situation. But, he asked the question and I will respond to it at face value and not regarding this instance.

If a member on this board wants to "out" an eBayer who doesn't want to pay, everything regarding the transaction should be made available to the board members. That includes specific, detailed information regarding the transaction. But realize, that is only one side of the story. So that leads to the integrity of the member that is "outing" an eBayer. If I don't personally know the board member, what guarantee is there that he/she is right in their accusation against the eBayer? I think a lot of us that don't go to coin shows, or at least the majors, and have never met nor dealt with a particular board member, can only go by that person's past postings on this board. Maybe that's the best there is, but I think it's thin, though.

The worst scenario is a board member that posts a "stay away from this guy, he's trouble" and we all immediately block the person from our listings. Where's the proof?

The other problem I would have is if the accusing board member publishes emails or snail mail correspondence with the person's identity, be it eBay or otherwise. That smacks of breaching expectations of confidentiality. I'm not a lawyer, but I would be careful going into this arena of "outing" somebody.

Compounding this issue is the recent eBay policy change. In this case, Tom has every right to neg this guy if he never gets paid for the coin. But hey, eBay won't allow you to do that in the very near future. So maybe this board (and others) might be the only way to know if a bidder is trustworthy. I would still be very careful, though.

I guess I may have just blown holes in my argument with the last paragraph.

Unknown · February 10, 2008 5:02AM

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Coinlearner · February 10, 2008 5:04AM

No outing....YET. No sense getting a noticable red neg. Go by your listing and bay policies..PERIOD. "Thank" him/her for their interest in your other products but you can not do that. Instruct the buyer to....please...cancel sale and move on,(run away)

PerryHall · February 10, 2008 5:04AM

<< I wouldn't out him. He only had second thoughts about what he wanted to purchase...it happens. Why not see if you can work a deal out. You're still getting his money. It shouldn't be that big a deal. Just MHO. >>

Russ · February 10, 2008 5:13AM

<< The buyer is betagammarad >>

This guy has won 633 auctions in the last 30 days. He's also racked up 248 positives in the last 30 days and, so far, has no negs. If he's actually paying for all these coins, I'd be bending over backwards to work with him.

Russ, NCNE

WinPitcher · February 10, 2008 5:27AM

A 1922 double eagle is a bullion coin?

Steve

Amigo · February 10, 2008 5:36AM

The buyer is 100% correct.

You do have a lot of coins.

Russ is correct
This guy has won 633 auctions in the last 30 days. He's also racked up 248 positives in the last 30 days and, so far, has no negs. If he's actually paying for all these coins, I'd be bending over backwards to work with him.

The buyer is now cognizant that you are a large Dealer. He wants to deal. You're crazy if you don't reel him in over this sale. He hit the jackpot somewhere and is looking to spend it. Spend some time with him, he want's to know that you can be worked with before buying a number of other pieces.

mrearlygold · February 10, 2008 5:39AM

<< A 1922 double eagle is a bullion coin?

Steve >>

In that grade it's Bullion related, sure is.

Far as the customer, go for it. You have his ID and my blessings.

Hit the jackpot? LOL

TAClough · February 10, 2008 5:51AM

I get a kick out of dealers tht sell on eBay. What ever happened to "Customer Service"?

Let me explain, I have bought a few coins on eBay, and sometimes from the same seller. After I have had a few positive transaction and a buy / sell relationship has been established, I have no problem buying direct from the dealer without going through eBay ( this saves me the hassle of bidding and the seller the fees of listing and finial value).

The OP still has the coin so he is not out anything, why not work with the customer, it might be rewarded later down the road

seemyauction · February 10, 2008 5:55AM

mrearlygold, not trying to pick a fight with you......This is exactly why the proposed ebay feedback changes are making sellers leave.

1. Your bid is a legal binding contract.
2. If you want to change the terms of the contract after you sign it, both parties have to agree on the new contract.
3. Seems pretty clear mrearlygold does not wish to change the original contract.
4. Seems pretty clear buyer wants to change the contract.

Under ebay's proposed feedback changes mrearlygold would get a Negative for not catering to the buyers every whim & all mrearlygold could do is leave a neutral BLOCK THIS BIDDER feedback.

Good luck with your struggle mrearlygold, I would BLOCK THAT BIDDER.....if nothing else

mrearlygold · February 10, 2008 5:57AM

Seemyauction, you are absolutely right.

Dabigkahuna · February 10, 2008 6:16AM

mrearlygold.

I feel your pain.

I just sold a $3000 coin using the fixed price and "Show a Bid" feature. After several rounds we agreed on the price and the buyer bot the coin. After a week of not hearing anything back. I wrote him to see if he had sent the payment. His reply was that his wife saw the purchase and would divorce him if paid for the coin. He dodn't even consider letting me know. LOL!

At least your guy is willing to work something out.

unfortunately I have had similar things happen. I don't know what good it would do to "out the buyer" except to alienate him and his fellow buyers.

A deal is not done until both parties are happy with the out come. Deal with the guy. Maybe something good will come of it.
jmho

Larry
Dabigkahuna

notwilight · February 10, 2008 6:18AM

7 days is way too early to worry. I would think anyone you end up filing a NPB for in say 40 days should be outed.

As for this specific situatiion, I would find something to sell him. This happens to me frequently. presidential dollars which I sell come in so many flavors that buyers are often making mistakes. When I tell them "no problem" they bend over backwards to find something else to buy. good buyers make mistakes and live up to their committments and appreciate being treated professionally. --Jerry

notwilight · February 10, 2008 6:24AM

<< Tell him that when if the check arrives you will send him what he wanted. If he does not want it tell him you will have the auction annulled and that he will have to agree to the e-bay terms. >>

Ebay offers annulments now? I should have considered that before my divorce.

DJCoinz · February 10, 2008 6:27AM

Here's another NPB for everyone's block list...he bought a $160 item a few weeks ago and I got no payment or contact. xxxx2008xxxx

lkenefic · February 10, 2008 6:46AM

I have to agree... the guy entered into an agreement to purchase that particular coin at that particular price. I wish I had a dime for every auction that I won where a different piece became available a day or two after the auction that I won closed. Did I say... Oh, so sorry but I'm doing some other shopping and now I want coin Y instead of coin X. I can see where customer service would come into play and some might want to "bend over backwards" to accomodate a high roller but I'd be wary of this bidder in the future. I'm a small, sometimes seller, and don't have the stock that a real dealer might have. I'd be wary of getting a retaliatory neg because I don't "play" like other dealers might... L

stev32k · February 10, 2008 7:03AM

At the very least I think you are premature to say he is a non-paying bidder. At least he says he has mailed the check and he did say he would go though with the sale. I think you should have waited a week or so before saying anything.

His email sounded reasonable to me and I would have tried to work with the guy. You might have made a good customer, but you have turned him off and likely several people reading this thread as well.

Russ · February 10, 2008 7:09AM

<< I have to agree... the guy entered into an agreement to purchase that particular coin at that particular price. >>

Yes, he did. And, he also said:

If not, I will take the coin in good faith for my mistake and figure out what to do with it when I get it.

Russ, NCNE

gamehunter · February 10, 2008 7:38AM

Thanks DJ, I just placed that loser (xxxx2008xxxx) on my blocked list.

bestday · February 10, 2008 7:41AM

<< 

<< The buyer is betagammarad >>

This guy has won 633 auctions in the last 30 days. He's also racked up 248 positives in the last 30 days and, so far, has no negs. If he's actually paying for all these coins, I'd be bending over backwards to work with him.

Russ, NCNE >>

damn Russ.... with such common sense , you should running for President

seemyauction · February 10, 2008 8:34AM

<< damn Russ.... with such common sense , you should running for President >>

I've never registered to vote but if Russ runs I will........Just to vote for Russ.....lol

YaHa · February 10, 2008 8:51AM

<< 

<< The buyer is betagammarad >>

This guy has won 633 auctions in the last 30 days. He's also racked up 248 positives in the last 30 days and, so far, has no negs. If he's actually paying for all these coins, I'd be bending over backwards to work with him.

Russ, NCNE >>

Right on Russ,

See what he really wants get him to pay you by Money Order Cashiers Check and make a deal. This guy seems legit to me, but again who am I?

Unknown · February 10, 2008 8:53AM

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BlindedByEgo · February 10, 2008 9:10AM

"Buyers" like this are little more than a brief annoyance... I try to do my best to put myself in their shoes and treat them as I would want to be treated.

At the end of the day, my goal is to generate profit in my business - and to take my ego out of the equation, when and where it might stand in the way of so doing.

RonLJr · February 10, 2008 9:29AM

No, lets all be quiet and let the rest of our collector friends be had

Griv · February 10, 2008 9:52AM

I can understand some concern but it sounds like you are one of those lazy dealers that doesn't have time and doesn't have flexibility. It looks like this guy has some cash to spend but you are already "outing" him and he hasn't done anything but try to discuss a possible alternate deal. I personally have made a mistake here and there on a bid and while I always followed through, I can't see any problem with him asking you if you are willing. Are you a businessman or an old coin dealer fart? The choice is yours but I think I can guess the answer.

Fairlaneman · February 10, 2008 10:21AM

Griv you are really tactful.

This old collector fart thinks that the OP should out the person and here is why. A few years back I kept my mouth shut about a very slow payer that I had to constantly hound for his payment. Later on another forum member had a very bad experience with the same guy. Possibly the other forum members problem could have been avoided if I would have said something to begin with.

Respectfully Old Collector Fart.
Ken

lkenefic · February 10, 2008 10:34AM

<< 

<< I have to agree... the guy entered into an agreement to purchase that particular coin at that particular price. >>

Yes, he did. And, he also said:

If not, I will take the coin in good faith for my mistake and figure out what to do with it when I get it.

Russ, NCNE >>

Then why did he bring up his brain fart in the first place? I get it... the guy has big bucks to spend... ergo, the playing field is a tad different.

Leo

COINB0Y · February 10, 2008 10:38AM

This is a case for making instant payment with PayPal being the ONLY way to pay, isn't it? No Checks, No Money Orders, only instant Payment or EChecks.

With the lack of teeth to go after bad buyers now, let alone good ones (like this one), makes you think that someone really thought thru the Feedback Analysis over at EBay.

1.) Pick up the phone and call him. Do this first. Contact Data get be gotten from EBay.
2.) All Personal Checks are carbonized now (99%), ask for the copy.
3.) Get a Check Number and Date during the Call
4.) Ask him out right if he can't pay.

EBay will get it sooner then Later - Death by a 1,000 Cuts

Griv · February 10, 2008 10:48AM

<< Griv you are really tactful.

This old collector fart thinks that the OP should out the person and here is why. A few years back I kept my mouth shut about a very slow payer that I had to constantly hound for his payment. Later on another forum member had a very bad experience with the same guy. Possibly the other forum members problem could have been avoided if I would have said something to begin with.

Respectfully Old Collector Fart.
Ken >>

I strongly disagree. Even though he hasn't followed the letter of the auction he hasn't provided ANY indication he won't pay. So, I am friggin amazed that you would advocate "outing" him prior to the resolution of this issue. You have to be kidding me here? The situation is still in progress, geez. What if he ends up sending and extra $20 for the hassle? All of a sudden he's ok but does that message get out to all the people that read his "outing"? No.

I would certainly ask that you rethink your position on this but if not, don't expect me to work on my tact. Fair enough?

Unknown · February 10, 2008 10:53AM

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Bochiman · February 10, 2008 11:08AM

You guys need to re-read the OP where the buyer is quoted as saying that if changes can't be made, it will still be ok with him and he will make it work.
Russ even quoted that just a bit ago but it seems people didn't pay attention

btw...Tom (OP), already outed the guy....no need to keep pressing for it ...

Here....I went back to copy/paste it for everyone....
If we can work something out, that would be great. If not, I will take the coin in good faith for my mistake and figure out what to do with it when I get it. Thanks, Whatever you might be able to do for me would be greatly appreciated

Would be as simple as ...."sorry....I do consider it sold to you for that right now but if there are any other items you are thinking about, let me know and I can see if we can do something".
Would make the sale set and also set it up for a future sale with a win-win for both parties, imho.

Fairlaneman · February 10, 2008 11:09AM

Opps: He was outed? I missed that. Back to read the whole thread.

Friggin edit on a critical post on page 1. Forget every damn thing I said in this EDITED post and the posts before this one.

Ken

fc · February 10, 2008 11:11AM

ask me, you bid and won, you need to pay. send the guy the coin
he bought saying you are an old fashioned dealer who goes by
the auction rules.

worse case, tell him you will rip up the check and you can start fresh.

RYK · February 10, 2008 11:19AM

I am of the opinion that the OP is in the catbird seat. If he presses the buyer, the buyer will pay for the item and "no harm, no foul". If he is willing to be a little creative, perhaps he can cut a better (read: larger) deal. Worst case, the buyer reneges on the auction and no one gets hurt.

Griv · February 10, 2008 11:21AM

<< Opps: He was outed? I missed that. Back to read the whole thread.

Friggin edit on a critical post on page 1. Forget every damn thing I said in this EDITED post and the posts before this one.

Ken >>

Yepper. Outed on the second post. Seems this Old Fart Dealer didn't need much encouragement to be a jerk. Maybe being a biggoted old fart isn't what it used to be.

Should we out people who reneg on paying?

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