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Shipping insurance - responsibility of SELLER!
slipgate
Posts: 2,301 ✭✭
I am not sure why all you sellers think the buyer should decide whether to get insurance for an item. The insurance protects the seller.
If I buy an item, do not specify insurance and the item is lost, I can guarantee you that I will complain to either paypal or the credit card company that I never got the item and they WILL reverse the charge.
So huff and puff all you want, but you are responsible for an item until it gets to my door. If it does not arrive, then you are out the money, not me! If you are concerned about that, include insurance as not optional in your bidding/selling requirements.
I'd be interested in what the sellers and buyers here have to say about this!!
If I buy an item, do not specify insurance and the item is lost, I can guarantee you that I will complain to either paypal or the credit card company that I never got the item and they WILL reverse the charge.
So huff and puff all you want, but you are responsible for an item until it gets to my door. If it does not arrive, then you are out the money, not me! If you are concerned about that, include insurance as not optional in your bidding/selling requirements.
I'd be interested in what the sellers and buyers here have to say about this!!
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Russ, NCNE
Jade Rare Coin eBay Listings
...if the bidder/buyer is not willing to factor that into their bidding on ebay then they won't be doing any business with me...
...now, if I offer a BIN that gives me enough profit...or set a Reserve that does the same...I'll offer free Insured S&H...otherwise, the responsibility may be on me...but the expense will be on the winning bidder...
...as said so many times before on this forum...in the end, the seller ends up paying for the S&H as most bidders DO factor in this cost when bidding...
...ok...now what was it I was doing...
Since that eye-opener I have modified my shipping to make usps ins optional for items under $500. Paypal/Ebay have seller protection if Paypal is used and shipping requirements are followed, so all you are really getting from usps is ins against damage, and there should not be any if the item is packed well.
<< <i>Paypal/Ebay have seller protection if Paypal is used and shipping requirements are followed, so all you are really getting from usps is ins against damage. >>
You have seller protection against a claim of non-receipt. If the package is lost, and the buyer files a claim you're screwed without insurance.
Russ, NCNE
if you list it as an option to be paid for by the buyer and he refuses then you should pay for it. refusal to reimburse you for your costs does not mean the buyer forfeits his rights under the contract. you still have the contractual obligation to deliver the goods and make good either on your own or thru an insurance carrier if the item gets lost or stolen.
edited for clarity; bless her dear little heart
<< <i>I am not sure why all you sellers think the buyer should decide whether to get insurance for an item. The insurance protects the seller. >>
I don't know- maybe because all you buyers whine when you don't like the type of insurance some sellers choose for their shipments?
If all you buyers expect to be protected from financial loss due to lost/damaged items, all you buyers need to stop complaining about the manner in which such protection is provided.
<< <i>You have seller protection against a claim of non-receipt. If the package is lost, and the buyer files a claim you're screwed without insurance.
Russ, NCNE >>
If the buyer claims non-receipt and all shipping reqs have been followed, doesn't that cover usps lost? I still don't see what you would gain by getting usps ins.
I'm just posting because it never hurts to pound it home.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i><< You have seller protection against a claim of non-receipt. If the package is lost, and the buyer files a claim you're screwed without insurance.
Russ, NCNE >>
If the buyer claims non-receipt and all shipping reqs have been followed, doesn't that cover usps lost? >>
No. The seller protection program is not insurance against loss of a package.
Russ, NCNE
However, I think most sellers who make it optional are unaware of their exposure if a seller declines insurance and pays with Paypal. I also think it is unethical for buyers to take advantage of this.
Box of 20
WTB: Barber Quarters XF
<< <i>On the few occasions I sell stuff on ebay, I include insurance in the shipping charge and clearly state that in my listing. Then I always get a crybaby or 2 telling me that my shipping is too high. >>
I agree with this! Insurance ain't cheap you know!
Fee . . . . . . . . . . Insurance Coverage
$1.65 ................ $0.01 to $50
$2.05 ................ $50.01 to $100
$2.45 ................ $100.01 to $200
$4.60 ................ $200.01 to $300
$5.50 ................ $300.01 to $400
$6.40 ................ $400.01 to $500
$7.30……………$500.01 to $600
$7.30 plus $0.90 per $100 or fraction thereof over $600 to $5,000.
Thats a lot of smackers to factor into your Shipping and Handling costs!
The name is LEE!
It's part of doing business.
<< <i>Bottom line, sellers should not make insurance optional.
However, I think most sellers who make it optional are unaware of their exposure if a seller declines insurance and pays with Paypal. I also think it is unethical for buyers to take advantage of this. >>
Why is it unethical?. Perhaps the buyer rightly believes that it is the sellers responsibility to ensure that the purchased item arrives at the buyer. As such, the buy is somewhat miffed that the seller is trying to shift his cost onto the buyer. So the buyer doesn't pay the cost that is clearly stated as optional. Is this unethical?
A trade term requiring the seller to deliver goods at his or her own place of business.
All other transportation costs and risks are assumed by the buyer.
So if a smart seller puts EXW on his auction.... the buyer would be stuck without insurance
<< <i>Ex Works (EXW)
A trade term requiring the seller to deliver goods at his or her own place of business.
All other transportation costs and risks are assumed by the buyer.
So if a smart seller puts EXW on his auction.... the buyer would be stuck without insurance >>
I don't believe so, not if he paid via PayPal or files a dispute with his credit card company for non receipt.
<< <i>I disagree. You purchased the item and are the owner of the item. Its yours now. >>
You don't honestly believe this, do you? Its Not mine until you place it in my hands. I don't own anything until I recieve it. I may have given you the money but the goods must transfer, otherwise you are a thief (i.e taken money and delivered nothing.) You are contracting with the Post Office to guarantee delivery of an item. It is your responsibility to ensure that I recieve what I have paid for. That is why Paypal and the credit card companies ALWAYS side with the buyer.
Consider this, if you charge me insurance for an item and I pay it and the item gets lost by the Post office. Who has to follow up with the post office for reimbursement? You do. Why? Because YOU contracted with the post office to deliver the item. You gave the post office the insurance money. You are responsible for getting the reimbursement and you are responsible for refunding the money to the buyer.
So what does that tell you? The buyer owns nothing until he actually gets delivery.
Box of 20
<< <i>If I send a coin back for some reason, I always pay insurance just to make sure. What sucks is, I end up paying insurance BOTH ways. Ugh! >>
Why would you not insure an item you return? if its lost its your ass and you are SOL. you pay for insurance to you as a seller should be able to recover his costs of doing business. duh USPS services are generally a contract between the usps and the shipper. the recipient usually has no part in it.
<< <i>The buyer has also contracted the seller in delivering the item by purchasing the item. >>
So what are you saying? That the seller better honor the contract and ensure that the buyer recieves the item?
That is why the seller would then contract with a reputable entity to deliver the item. Whoever the seller contracts with for delivery had better be dependable, otherwise he would be responsible for replacement or reimbursement if the delivery vendor did not deliver.. The seller may charge the buyer for this delivery service, but it is the seller's responsibility to make sure he gives the buyer what he charged them for. That is dependable delivery of the item sold. So... if the buyer doesn't get the item and the buyer doesn't get dependable delivery service that the seller charged him for, then the seller must reimburse both the item and the shipping charges.
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<< <i>Bottom line, sellers should not make insurance optional.
However, I think most sellers who make it optional are unaware of their exposure if a seller declines insurance and pays with Paypal. I also think it is unethical for buyers to take advantage of this. >>
Why is it unethical? >>
If a seller states as part of his terms of sale that insurance is optional (read: buyer assumes the risk of loss or damage) and a potential buyer bids on and wins the item and refuses to pay for insurance with the expectation that, should the item not show up, he'll just file a claim against the seller to get reimbursed, that's unethical.
If you don't agree to a seller's specified terms of sale (you don't want to assume the risk of loss by paying for insurance), you have two choices. The ethical option is to not bid. The unethical option is to bid with the intention of not paying for insurance, but making your payment in a form which allows you to avoid responsibility for the consequences of your actions if things don't work out the way you like.
The fact that PayPal or your cc company allows you to actually get away with something doesn't make it ethical.
Box of 20
<< <i>All my acutions and BINs require insurance. If someone doesn't like it don't bid. I have to cover myself as a seller. It's that simple. I have sold items for a little as $12.00 and as high as $5200 and each item requires insurance. We need a lawyer who knows contract law because I am sure not one. >>
Bingo! You are correct, you have to cover yourself as a seller. The buyer will expect delivery of the item regardless of whether the Post Office lost it or not.
So, as long as you stick to checks and money orders (and don't fall under the UCC), you can probably get by holding a buyer who declined insurance responsible for a package lost in transit. Otherwise, be prepared to eat any loss not backed up by proof of DELIVERY (especially with PayPal). It is your choice whether you want to insure that loss or not but it will be the seller's risk not the buyer's. Again, this is especially the case with PayPal. Depending on your merchant agreement, for credit card payments, proof of shipping to the billing address may be sufficient.
More importantly, I don't know why this debate comes up. If you are a seller, why would you put yourself in a position of stiffing the customer for the PO's loss. Set up reasonable, friendly terms that protect your customers from the PO and your business will grow. Your terms will cause people to feel safe doing business with you. This will grow your business and, in the case of online auctions, increase the bidders on your items resulting in a higher ending price.
If you're in a situation where you're worrying about the outcome of this insurance debate then you need to rethink your business strategy. Adopt commercially reasonable terms and you'll increase your business enough to afford a few bucks for insurance (or absorb the loss yourself should you opt to self-insure).
WH
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<< <i>On the few occasions I sell stuff on ebay, I include insurance in the shipping charge and clearly state that in my listing. Then I always get a crybaby or 2 telling me that my shipping is too high. >>
I agree with this! Insurance ain't cheap you know! Fee . . . . . . . . . . Insurance Coverage $1.65 ................ $0.01 to $50 $2.05 ................ $50.01 to $100 $2.45 ................ $100.01 to $200 $4.60 ................ $200.01 to $300 $5.50 ................ $300.01 to $400 $6.40 ................ $400.01 to $500 $7.30……………$500.01 to $600 $7.30 plus $0.90 per $100 or fraction thereof over $600 to $5,000. Thats a lot of smackers to factor into your Shipping and Handling costs! >>
I disagree with you. That is rediculously high, on the order of 2% or 1/50 of the package value. With loss rates on the order of .001 or 1 in 1000, this must be a huge cash cow--unless insuring the item increases it's chance of getting "lost". --Jerry
WTB: Barber Quarters XF
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
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<< <i>
<< <i>Bottom line, sellers should not make insurance optional.
However, I think most sellers who make it optional are unaware of their exposure if a seller declines insurance and pays with Paypal. I also think it is unethical for buyers to take advantage of this. >>
Why is it unethical? >>
If a seller states as part of his terms of sale that insurance is optional (read: buyer assumes the risk of loss or damage) and a potential buyer bids on and wins the item and refuses to pay for insurance with the expectation that, should the item not show up, he'll just file a claim against the seller to get reimbursed, that's unethical.
If you don't agree to a seller's specified terms of sale (you don't want to assume the risk of loss by paying for insurance), you have two choices. The ethical option is to not bid. The unethical option is to bid with the intention of not paying for insurance, but making your payment in a form which allows you to avoid responsibility for the consequences of your actions if things don't work out the way you like.
The fact that PayPal or your cc company allows you to actually get away with something doesn't make it ethical. >>
The Uniform Commercial Code or UCC specifies each party's obligations in a contract situation. You can't just say that insurance is optional and therefore as a seller your obligations under the UCC have magically gone away. You can't enforce stipulations, conditions, etc which are contrary to the law. Try putting a note on your car that says all fines for traffic violations for this vehicle are the responsibility of the ticketing agency and see where that gets you.
<< <i>I disagree with you. That is rediculously high, on the order of 2% or 1/50 of the package value. With loss rates on the order of .001 or 1 in 1000, this must be a huge cash cow--unless insuring the item increases it's chance of getting "lost". --Jerry >>
Wow. Haven't insured much at the post office lately, huh?
<< <i>I disagree. You purchased the item and are the owner of the item. Its yours now. >>
That's a good one. You're kidding, right?
Strictly speaking an eBay-type, paypal involved transaction - well... - I can't fathom what some are thinking, let alone that this topic has come up yet again.
<< <i>You can't just say that insurance is optional and therefore as a seller your obligations under the UCC have magically gone away. >>
I didn't say that.
I said that it's unethical (IMO) to bid with the intention of not paying for insurance, but making your payment such that you are able to shift the responsibility for loss or damage to another person if the seller notifies you before you bid through his terms of sale that you're expected to pay for insurance if you want it.
<< <i>Note to self: no selling to slipgate unless he payes for insurance!
Note to self: Never sell to slipgate!
If you file a chargeback, your credit card company may refund your money if you have been a good customer and they want to keep you.
However they may not if your credit standing is not 100%, watch out.
A chargeback is not a guarantee, its a fact finding mission. Once a seller provides proof of shipment & tracking info, the seller has done everything they possibly can.
If you purchace insurance on an item, it is your responsibility, NOT THE SELLER"S, to file a claim for loss.
Now in most cases the seller initiates the claim because they are more familiar with the process.
To whom is the insurance claim payed?
Alan
<< <i>
<< <i>I disagree with you. That is rediculously high, on the order of 2% or 1/50 of the package value. With loss rates on the order of .001 or 1 in 1000, this must be a huge cash cow--unless insuring the item increases it's chance of getting "lost". --Jerry >>
Wow. Haven't insured much at the post office lately, huh? >>
Don't understand your point. Those are the current postal insurance rates and as my math shows, they are rediculously high. --Jerry
Now in most cases the seller initiates the claim because they are more familiar with the process.
.................
Wrong, the buyer doesn't purchase the insurance, you do. The buyer is merely reimbursing the seller for his costs in shipping the package. The seller files the claim because he is the one who bought the coverage and entered into the contract with the USPS. The buyer's obligation is to complete the affidavit that he gets from the USPS verifying that he did not receive the shipment. For this reason it is best to wait until AFTER the buyer completes and returns the necessary paperwork to you before you refund his $$$.
<< <i>How can you hold the seller responsible for the actions of the Post Office or any other shipping carrier. You can not.
If you file a chargeback, your credit card company may refund your money if you have been a good customer and they want to keep you.
However they may not if your credit standing is not 100%, watch out.
A chargeback is not a guarantee, its a fact finding mission. Once a seller provides proof of shipment & tracking info, the seller has done everything they possibly can.
If you purchace insurance on an item, it is your responsibility, NOT THE SELLER"S, to file a claim for loss.
Now in most cases the seller initiates the claim because they are more familiar with the process.
To whom is the insurance claim payed?
Alan >>
the insurance claim is paid to the person purchasing the insurance. Which just happens to be the seller when he takes the item to the post office. in fact all insurance claims are paid back to the seller when the seller files a claim with the post office (remember now, it was the seller that purchased the insurance from the post office when he paid the postage and sent the item).
It is the seller who has the reciept for insurance. Why does he have the reciept? Because he paid for it!!!!!!
It is also the sellers responsibility to reimburse the buyer for non delivery. Remember now that the seller has a contract and a claim with the post office for the insurance that he purchased when he mailed the item.
Bottom line:
The buyer is responsible to pay for the item and any fees the seller may impose for shipping and handling and this includes fees that the seller may charge for insurance.
The seller is responsible to ensure that the item gets to the buyer. The seller does this by contracting with the shipper. The buyer doesn't contract with the shipper, he is merely waiting for an item that the seller charged him for . Those charges included seller imposed shipping, handling and insurance fees.
Remember the word fees. The seller charges fees to provide a service. In this case the service is making sure the buyer gets his item. If the buyer doesn't get the item that the seller charged the fees for. Who do you think is responsible.? It sure as heck isn't the buyer.
And if you don't understand this then you shouldn't be selling to the public.
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<< <i>You can't just say that insurance is optional and therefore as a seller your obligations under the UCC have magically gone away. >>
I didn't say that.
I said that it's unethical (IMO) to bid with the intention of not paying for insurance, but making your payment such that you are able to shift the responsibility for loss or damage to another person if the seller notifies you before you bid through his terms of sale that you're expected to pay for insurance if you want it. >>
Its so much easier and less stressfull if you just state in you auctions that insurance is included and adjust you shipping rates accordingly. For low cost items, you can choose to self insure and cover the loss yourself for the .001% of the time that the post office loses something. For higher priced items. the buyer expects and appreciates that the item will be insured and does'nt mind a higher shipping cost because it includes insurance.
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<< <i>Note to self: no selling to slipgate unless he payes for insurance!
Note to self: Never sell to slipgate!
Hey! My feedback speaks for itself!
I always opt for "optional" insurance on items over $100. For under $100, I take my chances and have never had an issue. What sparked this topic is that I have been waiting 2 weeks for an item (cheap $20) that was uninsured and has not shown up yet. I am not sure what I will do if it does not arrive. While I know that I have no legal obligation to eat any loss, the way I am I would work with the seller to find something where we both benefit.