<< <i>Its so much easier and less stressfull if you just state in you auctions that insurance is included and adjust you shipping rates accordingly. >>
That's what I do.
I was mainly addressing the ethics (not the legalities) involved with someone not paying for insurance but insisting that they still be covered for a loss when it was made clear upfront that not purchasing insurance would put the risk of loss or damage on the buyer.
<< <i>the insurance claim is paid to the person purchasing the insurance. >>
Not always. A couple of years ago, I didn't receive an item for which insurance had been paid, and the post office reimbursed me, not the seller.
eBay wouldn't have to do anything if bidders would take responsibility for themselves by making sure they understand the seller's terms and agree to them before bidding.
I just recently included insurance in all of my shipping and handling fees, making it mandatory to all buyers. I hated to jack my shipping charge to do this, but i got tired of purchasers of high dollar coins not buying the relatively cheap insurance. I found myself paying for it just to protect ME! Yes it does protect the seller.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
a. The transaction -- namely, a sale of goods -- falls within the purview of the Uniform Commercial Code. Thus any dispute between you and the buyer must be resolved under UCC's rules.
b. HERE'S THE KEY: The UCC provides that, in the absence of any agreement to the contrary, the seller is obligated to deliver the goods to the transporter (a "common carrier") AND NOTHING ELSE.
CITATIONS: Calif Commer. Code Sec. 2308(a) ("Unless otherwise agreed, [t]he place for delivery of goods is the seller's place of business"); Sec. 2320 (where the price paid includes in a lump sum the cost of the goods and freight to a named destination, the seller [once this price is paid] is required, "at his own expense and risk to put the goods into the possession of a carrier" and "load the goods and obtain a receipt from the carrier (showing that the freight has been paid or provided)". This means that ONCE you've complied with these requirements (and you've provided the goods to the carrier), the RISK OF LOSS shifts from the seller to the buyer. [NOTE: this is called a "C&F" contract, meaning that the price paid by the buyer includes the cost of the goods plus shipping. If the buyer had paid for insurance, then you would have a "CIF" contract, and you would also have been responsible to insure the goods.]
HERE's another website that confirm this basic rule of C&F contracts (although you can find a million of them out there): International Shipping Glossary California - California International shipping glossary, California international shipping te.. (Cost and Freight (C&F) - The exporter pays the costs and freight necessary to get the goods to the named destination. The risk of loss or damage is assumed by the buyer once the goods are loaded at the port of embarkation).
c. Thus, under those sections of the law, the US Postal Service (or any other carrier in a C&F contract, for that matter) is regarded as an agent of the buyer. Put another way, in a C&F contract, you've COMPLETED your obligations to the buyer once you deliver the goods to the shipper.
d. You can prove that you delivered the item to the USPS.
e. You sent your item to the buyer's confirmed PayPal address
f. If the buyer's confirmed address is UNSAFE for the secure receipt of packages, YOU would have no way of knowing that. The BUYER is in the best position to know that, and to either change his confirmed address on PayPal or direct you to ship the parcel elsewhere or to request that you ship it with a signature confirmation or that you ship it insured; or any combination of the above.
g. The buyer did none of those things; you did everything that you were supposed to do (and can prove it), therefore it is UNFAIR and not in keeping with governing law to require you to suffer the risk of loss. This is an unfortunate result for the buyer, of course, but it is the most fair result.
<< <i>I just recently included insurance in all of my shipping and handling fees, making it mandatory to all buyers. I hated to jack my shipping charge to do this, but i got tired of purchasers of high dollar coins not buying the relatively cheap insurance. I found myself paying for it just to protect ME! Yes it does protect the seller. >>
<< <i>I am not sure why all you sellers think the buyer should decide whether to get insurance for an item. The insurance protects the seller.
If I buy an item, do not specify insurance and the item is lost, I can guarantee you that I will complain to either paypal or the credit card company that I never got the item and they WILL reverse the charge.
So huff and puff all you want, but you are responsible for an item until it gets to my door. If it does not arrive, then you are out the money, not me! If you are concerned about that, include insurance as not optional in your bidding/selling requirements.
I'd be interested in what the sellers and buyers here have to say about this!! >>
Legally under the Uniform Commercial Code, the buyer is responsible for shipping costs and insurance, as the item belongs to the buyer as soon as it leaves the seller's premises. Some dishonest buyers refuse to pay for insurance and then file a Paypal or credit card chargeback if the item is lost. Sellers must include the cost of the insurance in the shipping fee to protect themselves from this abuse, but then become targets for complaints about "excessive shipping." The credit card/Paypal chargeback rules are to protect buyers from crooked sellers who never send the item (or may have never even had it) Chargebacks for failure to purchase insurance are as unfair as a car buyer who did not buy insurance, wrecked the car, then stopped payment on the check to the dealer!
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i> When YOU take your package to the post office to mail it YOU enter into another contract with them to deliver it. The buyer is NOT a party to this contract; just YOU and the USPS. The USPS recognizes that they are not perfect and that loss or damage may occur. Therefore they offer insurance to indemnify themselves against any loss or damage to the package while it is in their possession. You as the shipper may elect to purchase the insurance or waive it [in which case if you waive coverage YOU will incur the loss] YOU and not the USPS or the buyer will eat the loss. >>
Since the buyer usually pays for shipping, the buyer is indeed a party to the contract for delivery. The seller is merely acting as an agent to pay the shipping costs from funds that were charged to the buyer for shipping.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
As a buyer, I ALWAYS buy or ask for insured shipping FROM THE SELLER. If a seller collects money from me for insurance, then if the item does not get delivered to me, I expect the SELLER to refund me immediately. It's HIS/HER problem to recover their loss from whatever insurance THEY purchased (or didn't).
As a seller, I feel the same way. If someone says they did not receive something that I sent, and they paid ME for insurance, then I owe them a refund - immediately. I will then go to whatever insurance source that I purchased (or didn't) and retrieve the insured value. If I purchased insurance from USPS, then you can bet I covered not only the cost of the item I sent - but some additional "hassle pad" costs. It IS a PAIN to get insurance payment out of USPS!! Sometimes I don't purchase any 3d party insurance, so if something I send gets lost - then it is MY problem, and my responsibility.
I don't know from reading all the stuff in this thread if my "policy" is legal or correct - but it is what it is!
I have read the code and made my statement based on the code.
I'm not trying to start a battle, just stating my interpretation of the rules and codes.
I'm a liscened auctioneer and I've learned to read the codes & regulations before entering into contracts, sometimes the hard way.
I bet 99% of the folks that click the check box, which is the same as signing your name, never read what they are signing. The statement right beside the box usually states "I have read, understand & Agree to the terms & conditions."
<< <i>I expect the SELLER to refund me immediately. It's HIS/HER problem to recover their loss >>
Only a fool would refund your payment immediately. When there is a claim he needs your help in getting it processed and if you already got your $$$ there is no incentive for you to cooperate. I know. I know. Yer not one a those kind, but many others are.
<< <i> When YOU take your package to the post office to mail it YOU enter into another contract with them to deliver it. The buyer is NOT a party to this contract; just YOU and the USPS. The USPS recognizes that they are not perfect and that loss or damage may occur. Therefore they offer insurance to indemnify themselves against any loss or damage to the package while it is in their possession. You as the shipper may elect to purchase the insurance or waive it [in which case if you waive coverage YOU will incur the loss] YOU and not the USPS or the buyer will eat the loss. >>
Since the buyer usually pays for shipping, the buyer is indeed a party to the contract for delivery. The seller is merely acting as an agent to pay the shipping costs from funds that were charged to the buyer for shipping. >>
Then shouldn't the buyer have more say in how the item is to be shipped?
<< <i>I expect the SELLER to refund me immediately. It's HIS/HER problem to recover their loss >>
Only a fool would refund your payment immediately. When there is a claim he needs your help in getting it processed and if you already got your $$$ there is no incentive for you to cooperate. I know. I know. Yer not one a those kind, but many others are. >>
Yes, you are right. As a BUYER I will(have) provide(d) whatever the seller asks for - a signed statement is about all I can ever do. Then - I expect to be paid.
As a seller, I will(have) ask(ed) the PURCHASER for whatever information I need, including a signed statement, if necessary to recover from a 3rd party insurance agent. Upon receipt of the required documentation (if any), I should refund the purchaser, then go about MY business accordingly - which may include haggling with an insurance company.
To date I have never had anybody NOT provide me with any required statements etc. - because I had THEIR money! Conversely - I provide whatever I have to to get MY money back - if I paid for insurance !
Well you probably haven't dealt with that many complaints and I would guess the same goes for others. It should be evident from that many posts here over the years that what should have been an amicable resolution to a dispute sometimes turns sour and goes south. In such a case I would expect that one party would not be very willing to help the other so its necessary to hold back some leverage; in this case a refund. You know you are honest, but that doesn't mean that everyone else feels that way.
<< <i>To date I have never had anybody NOT provide me with any required statements etc. - because I had THEIR money! >>
Possibly not for long, if they paid through PayPal.
I received an email from a buyer a while back who said his coin never arrived. I sent him an insurance form to fill out in order to file a claim. The buyer never responded, and filed for a chargeback through PayPal. PayPal took the money from my account and charged me a $10 fee on top of that. I called and talked to PayPal to find out why they refunded the buyer's money when the buyer refused to cooperate in filing an insurance claim, and they pretty much told me "tough luck". I pointed out the fact that the buyer's eBay feedback showed a total of 18 "item not received- lost in the mail" feedbacks left by that buyer (what do you suppose the odds are, that the post office loses nearly 10% of the packages mailed to that particular individual?), but that apparently didn't raise any red flags with the good folks at PayPal.
Tracking and insurance is always a part of my shipping, if the buyer purchases the optional insurance I use the extra funds to upgrade the shipping method, same thing with multiple items. I would rather the buyer be surprised by the extra service than have them complain in their feedback.
On BS&T Now: Nothing. Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up! Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
<< <i>Tracking and insurance is always a part of my shipping, if the buyer purchases the optional insurance I use the extra funds to upgrade the shipping method, same thing with multiple items. I would rather the buyer be surprised by the extra service than have them complain in their feedback. >>
Why would a buyer pay for extra optional insurance when its already included and why would you use a buyer's money to buy something he didn't ask for?
<< <i> When YOU take your package to the post office to mail it YOU enter into another contract with them to deliver it. The buyer is NOT a party to this contract; just YOU and the USPS. The USPS recognizes that they are not perfect and that loss or damage may occur. Therefore they offer insurance to indemnify themselves against any loss or damage to the package while it is in their possession. You as the shipper may elect to purchase the insurance or waive it [in which case if you waive coverage YOU will incur the loss] YOU and not the USPS or the buyer will eat the loss. >>
Since the buyer usually pays for shipping, the buyer is indeed a party to the contract for delivery. The seller is merely acting as an agent to pay the shipping costs from funds that were charged to the buyer for shipping. >>
But if the seller calls the shots on how the item is shipped then IMO he bears the brunt of the responsibility. Most of the time its a package deal and the buyer has no choice in the matter. Maybe one should offer: Shipping terms by agreement. The best thing is common sense tho.
Comments
<< <i>Its so much easier and less stressfull if you just state in you auctions that insurance is included and adjust you shipping rates accordingly. >>
That's what I do.
I was mainly addressing the ethics (not the legalities) involved with someone not paying for insurance but insisting that they still be covered for a loss when it was made clear upfront that not purchasing insurance would put the risk of loss or damage on the buyer.
<< <i>the insurance claim is paid to the person purchasing the insurance. >>
Not always. A couple of years ago, I didn't receive an item for which insurance had been paid, and the post office reimbursed me, not the seller.
<< <i>Maybe eBay should just terminate listing where insurance is optional. It seems too many sellers are misinformed about this. >>
Makes sense. they seem to like terminating things lately.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
But the UCC says...
a. The transaction -- namely, a sale of goods -- falls within the purview of the Uniform Commercial Code. Thus any dispute between you and the buyer must be resolved under UCC's rules.
b. HERE'S THE KEY: The UCC provides that, in the absence of any agreement to the contrary, the seller is obligated to deliver the goods to the transporter (a "common carrier") AND NOTHING ELSE.
CITATIONS: Calif Commer. Code Sec. 2308(a) ("Unless otherwise agreed, [t]he place for delivery of goods is the seller's place of business"); Sec. 2320 (where the price paid includes in a lump
sum the cost of the goods and freight to a named destination, the seller [once this price is paid] is required, "at his own expense and risk to put the goods into the possession of a carrier" and "load the goods and obtain a receipt from the carrier (showing that the freight has been paid or provided)". This means that ONCE you've complied with these requirements (and you've provided the goods to the carrier), the RISK OF LOSS shifts from the seller to the buyer. [NOTE: this is called a "C&F" contract, meaning that the price paid by the buyer includes the cost of the goods plus shipping. If the buyer had paid for insurance, then you would have a "CIF" contract, and you would also have been responsible to insure the goods.]
HERE's another website that confirm this basic rule of C&F contracts (although you can find a million of them out there): International Shipping Glossary California - California International shipping glossary, California international shipping te.. (Cost and Freight (C&F) - The exporter pays the costs and freight necessary to get the goods to the named destination. The risk of loss or damage is assumed by the buyer once the goods are loaded at the port of embarkation).
c. Thus, under those sections of the law, the US Postal Service (or any other carrier in a C&F contract, for that matter) is regarded as an agent of the buyer. Put another way, in a C&F contract, you've COMPLETED your obligations to the buyer once you deliver the goods to the shipper.
d. You can prove that you delivered the item to the USPS.
e. You sent your item to the buyer's confirmed PayPal address
f. If the buyer's confirmed address is UNSAFE for the secure receipt of packages, YOU would have no way of knowing that. The BUYER is in the best position to know that, and to either change his confirmed address on PayPal or direct you to ship the parcel elsewhere or to request that you ship it with a signature confirmation or that you ship it insured; or any combination of the above.
g. The buyer did none of those things; you did everything that you were supposed to do (and can prove it), therefore it is UNFAIR and not in keeping with governing law to require you to suffer the risk of loss. This is an unfortunate result for the buyer, of course, but it is the most fair result.
What's wrong with this picture?
<< <i>I just recently included insurance in all of my shipping and handling fees, making it mandatory to all buyers. I hated to jack my shipping charge to do this, but i got tired of purchasers of high dollar coins not buying the relatively cheap insurance. I found myself paying for it just to protect ME! Yes it does protect the seller. >>
Pound it home, mate !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I am not sure why all you sellers think the buyer should decide whether to get insurance for an item. The insurance protects the seller.
If I buy an item, do not specify insurance and the item is lost, I can guarantee you that I will complain to either paypal or the credit card company that I never got the item and they WILL reverse the charge.
So huff and puff all you want, but you are responsible for an item until it gets to my door. If it does not arrive, then you are out the money, not me! If you are concerned about that, include insurance as not optional in your bidding/selling requirements.
I'd be interested in what the sellers and buyers here have to say about this!! >>
Legally under the Uniform Commercial Code, the buyer is responsible for shipping costs and insurance, as the item belongs to the buyer as soon as it leaves the seller's premises. Some dishonest buyers refuse to pay for insurance and then file a Paypal or credit card chargeback if the item is lost. Sellers must include the cost of the insurance in the shipping fee to protect themselves from this abuse, but then become targets for complaints about "excessive shipping." The credit card/Paypal chargeback rules are to protect buyers from crooked sellers who never send the item (or may have never even had it) Chargebacks for failure to purchase insurance are as unfair as a car buyer who did not buy insurance, wrecked the car, then stopped payment on the check to the dealer!
<< <i> When YOU take your package to the post office to mail it YOU enter into another contract with them to deliver it. The buyer is NOT a party to this contract; just YOU and the USPS. The USPS recognizes that they are not perfect and that loss or damage may occur. Therefore they offer insurance to indemnify themselves against any loss or damage to the package while it is in their possession. You as the shipper may elect to purchase the insurance or waive it [in which case if you waive coverage YOU will incur the loss] YOU and not the USPS or the buyer will eat the loss. >>
Since the buyer usually pays for shipping, the buyer is indeed a party to the contract for delivery. The seller is merely acting as an agent to pay the shipping costs from funds that were charged to the buyer for shipping.
If a seller collects money from me for insurance, then if the item does not get delivered to me,
I expect the SELLER to refund me immediately. It's HIS/HER problem to recover their loss
from whatever insurance THEY purchased (or didn't).
As a seller, I feel the same way. If someone says they did not receive something that I sent, and they
paid ME for insurance, then I owe them a refund - immediately. I will then go to whatever insurance
source that I purchased (or didn't) and retrieve the insured value. If I purchased insurance from USPS, then
you can bet I covered not only the cost of the item I sent - but some additional "hassle pad" costs. It IS
a PAIN to get insurance payment out of USPS!! Sometimes I don't purchase any 3d party insurance, so if
something I send gets lost - then it is MY problem, and my responsibility.
I don't know from reading all the stuff in this thread if my "policy" is legal or correct - but it is what it is!
I have read the code and made my statement based on the code.
I'm not trying to start a battle, just stating my interpretation of the rules and codes.
I'm a liscened auctioneer and I've learned to read the codes & regulations before entering into contracts, sometimes the hard way.
I bet 99% of the folks that click the check box, which is the same as signing your name, never read what they are signing. The statement right beside the box usually states "I have read, understand & Agree to the terms & conditions."
Read before you sign.
<< <i>I expect the SELLER to refund me immediately. It's HIS/HER problem to recover their loss >>
Only a fool would refund your payment immediately. When there is a claim he needs your help in getting it processed and if you already got your $$$ there is no incentive for you to cooperate. I know. I know. Yer not one a those kind, but many others are.
<< <i>
<< <i> When YOU take your package to the post office to mail it YOU enter into another contract with them to deliver it. The buyer is NOT a party to this contract; just YOU and the USPS. The USPS recognizes that they are not perfect and that loss or damage may occur. Therefore they offer insurance to indemnify themselves against any loss or damage to the package while it is in their possession. You as the shipper may elect to purchase the insurance or waive it [in which case if you waive coverage YOU will incur the loss] YOU and not the USPS or the buyer will eat the loss. >>
Since the buyer usually pays for shipping, the buyer is indeed a party to the contract for delivery. The seller is merely acting as an agent to pay the shipping costs from funds that were charged to the buyer for shipping. >>
Then shouldn't the buyer have more say in how the item is to be shipped?
<< <i>
<< <i>I expect the SELLER to refund me immediately. It's HIS/HER problem to recover their loss >>
Only a fool would refund your payment immediately. When there is a claim he needs your help in getting it processed and if you already got your $$$ there is no incentive for you to cooperate. I know. I know. Yer not one a those kind, but many others are. >>
Yes, you are right. As a BUYER I will(have) provide(d) whatever the seller asks for - a signed statement is about all I can ever do.
Then - I expect to be paid.
As a seller, I will(have) ask(ed) the PURCHASER for whatever information I need, including a signed statement, if necessary to recover from a 3rd party insurance agent. Upon receipt of the required documentation (if any),
I should refund the purchaser, then go about MY business accordingly - which may include haggling with
an insurance company.
To date I have never had anybody NOT provide me with any required statements etc. - because I had THEIR money!
Conversely - I provide whatever I have to to get MY money back - if I paid for insurance !
<< <i>To date I have never had anybody NOT provide me with any required statements etc. - because I had THEIR money! >>
Possibly not for long, if they paid through PayPal.
I received an email from a buyer a while back who said his coin never arrived. I sent him an insurance form to fill out in order to file a claim. The buyer never responded, and filed for a chargeback through PayPal. PayPal took the money from my account and charged me a $10 fee on top of that. I called and talked to PayPal to find out why they refunded the buyer's money when the buyer refused to cooperate in filing an insurance claim, and they pretty much told me "tough luck". I pointed out the fact that the buyer's eBay feedback showed a total of 18 "item not received- lost in the mail" feedbacks left by that buyer (what do you suppose the odds are, that the post office loses nearly 10% of the packages mailed to that particular individual?), but that apparently didn't raise any red flags with the good folks at PayPal.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
<< <i>Tracking and insurance is always a part of my shipping, if the buyer purchases the optional insurance I use the extra funds to upgrade the shipping method, same thing with multiple items. I would rather the buyer be surprised by the extra service than have them complain in their feedback. >>
Why would a buyer pay for extra optional insurance when its already included and why would you use a buyer's money to buy something he didn't ask for?
<< <i>
<< <i> When YOU take your package to the post office to mail it YOU enter into another contract with them to deliver it. The buyer is NOT a party to this contract; just YOU and the USPS. The USPS recognizes that they are not perfect and that loss or damage may occur. Therefore they offer insurance to indemnify themselves against any loss or damage to the package while it is in their possession. You as the shipper may elect to purchase the insurance or waive it [in which case if you waive coverage YOU will incur the loss] YOU and not the USPS or the buyer will eat the loss. >>
Since the buyer usually pays for shipping, the buyer is indeed a party to the contract for delivery. The seller is merely acting as an agent to pay the shipping costs from funds that were charged to the buyer for shipping. >>
But if the seller calls the shots on how the item is shipped then IMO he bears the brunt of the responsibility. Most of the time its a package deal and the buyer has no choice in the matter. Maybe one should offer: Shipping terms by agreement. The best thing is common sense tho.