I can imagine that the CAC won't be blacklisting the lower end coins for obvious reasons. How eager would you be to submit a coin that is obviously not an upgrade or even high-end, but one that you feel is "solid for the grade?"
It's a straw man argument. My dealer (or darned near any dealer on the bourse) will gladly tell me he thinks a coin sucks for the grade. I don't have to have it on a blacklist for him to know.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>That would cause hard feelings and the TPG's principals could no longer play 16 holes with the CAC's principals. >>
16? >>
Sure. That's how I shoot a 72 every round. >>
The last time I plaid 16 holes was in grad school, when I had to quit early and rush back home to my then fiance's by some arbitrary time deadline she had established.
<< <i>That would cause hard feelings and the TPG's principals could no longer play 16 holes with the CAC's principals. >>
16? >>
Sure. That's how I shoot a 72 every round. >>
The last time I plaid 16 holes was in grad school, when I had to quit early and rush back home to my then fiance's by some arbitrary time deadline she had established.
Thankfully, I nipped that behavior in the bud. >>
Right. Now you stop at 14 so you don't have to rush.
<< <i>The last time I plaid 16 holes was in grad school, when I had to quit early and rush back home to my then fiance's by some arbitrary time deadline she had established.
Thankfully, I nipped that behavior in the bud. >>
Nipped which behavior? Playing only 16 or listening to her?
"...My dealer (or darned near any dealer on the bourse) will gladly tell me he thinks a coin sucks for the grade. I don't have to have it on a blacklist for him to know..."
Of course you forgot to add "when I'm trying to SELL him a coin" after the first sentence above.
<< <i>That would cause hard feelings and the TPG's principals could no longer play 16 holes with the CAC's principals. >>
16? >>
Sure. That's how I shoot a 72 every round. >>
The last time I plaid 16 holes was in grad school, when I had to quit early and rush back home to my then fiance's by some arbitrary time deadline she had established.
Thankfully, I nipped that behavior in the bud. >>
Right. Now you stop at 14 so you don't have to rush. >>
<< <i>That would cause hard feelings and the TPG's principals could no longer play 16 holes with the CAC's principals. >>
16? >>
Sure. That's how I shoot a 72 every round. >>
The last time I plaid 16 holes was in grad school, when I had to quit early and rush back home to my then fiance's by some arbitrary time deadline she had established.
Thankfully, I nipped that behavior in the bud. >>
Right. Now you stop at 14 so you don't have to rush. >>
It should be noted that I also did the dishes after every meal, and sent her flowers for no special occasion with a card that read 'Happy Saturday'. In other words, I was on my best bhavior.
Now I'd think nothing of playing 27, and then stopping at a bar on the way home*.
* I'm sure that last part was written facetiously.
<< <i>It should be noted that I also did the dishes after every meal, and sent her flowers for no special occasion with a card that read 'Happy Saturday'. In other words, I was on my best bhavior.
Now I'd think nothing of playing for 27 minutes, and then stopping at a bar on the way home to buy dinner and flowers to say I'm sorry for being late. >>
My personal reaction: I believe the "upgrade potential" sticker will damage the inherent value of the "solid for the grade" stickers and possibly undermine the long term revenues of the CAC.
The CAC needs to think this through a little better. I can see that an "upgrade sticker" would be something they could introduce a few years hence AFTER the original sticker concept takes hold.
The third party system evolved from a grading system of 50-55-50-63-65-67 to a 50-53-55-58-60-61-62-63-64-65-66-67-68-69-70 over many years.
As a collector, I love the idea of a upgrade sticker but as an unbiased observer, I think the CAC is pushing too hard to do too many things at the outset.
<< <i>My personal reaction: I believe the "upgrade potential" sticker will damage the inherent value of the "solid for the grade" stickers and possibly undermine the long term revenues of the CAC.
The CAC needs to think this through a little better. I can see that an "upgrade sticker" would be something they could introduce a few years hence AFTER the original sticker concept takes hold.
The third party system evolved from a grading system of 50-55-50-63-65-67 to a 50-53-55-58-60-61-62-63-64-65-66-67-68-69-70 over many years.
As a collector, I love the idea of a upgrade sticker but as an unbiased observer, I think the CAC is pushing too hard to do too many things at the outset. >>
I agree. I like the simplicity of just "good coin" and "bad coin". Otherwise, you are running a poor man's grading service.
Russ, so far as I know, collectors can only submit through a dealer.
If PCGS and NGC went to a decimal grading system, for example, MS65.5, wouldn't that effectively eliminate the need for CAC? Isn't that primarily what CAC is doing? A PQ sticker on a PCGS65 slab will equate, say, to what might be called at least MS65.7 but less than MS65.9. If it has an upgrade sticker as well, CAC might be classifying the piece as somewhere between MS65.8 and MS66.2. I could also argue that the NGC* designation serves a similar purpose, and again, if that concept were adopted by PCGS, then the need for CAC would seem to be minimal. As such, CAC would seem to be entering a very risky business environment.
<< <i>Russ, so far as I know, collectors can only submit through a dealer. >>
If that's the case, it's another nail in the "upgrade sticker" coffin. If a collector could submit directly, then it's likely the upgrade stickered coin actually would stay in his collection to protect his "heirs". However, since the coins must travel through a dealer plenty of them will end up being crackout fodder.
<< <i>I could also argue that the NGC* designation serves a similar purpose, and again, if that concept were adopted by PCGS, then the need for CAC would seem to be minimal. >>
Based on what I've seen, most NGC* coins might not get a sticker at all.
<< <i>Certified coins that are believed to be under-graded will be issued special stickers designating the coins as potential upgrade candidates. >>
The cynic in me wonders how much slabbing company stock the CAC or their principles have or are planning to obtain in the short term. >>
The realist in me understands that the aim of the CAC will be to reduce the crackout game by incentivizing other behaviors, which would tend to reduce submissions. Any tiny bump in increased grading activity from these "upgrade" stickers, estimated earlier to be in the 1 in 100 range, is a fart in a windstorm compared to the modern bullion slabbing bonanza. In fact, it makes me wonder if Mint officials have invested in grading companies.
<< <i>In my case, absolutely none. This is only being done to protect the collector [or his heirs]. >>
I believe you sincerely believe this, but I also think your financial situation has you less sensitive to the issue of spiraling prices for the "good stuff". It seems hard for you to relate to how this is a very real issue to some of us.
Maybe a nice coin moving from $1000 to $1500 because it's been CAC-blessed doesn't seem like much to you. For some of us, it's huge. It could be difference between being able to buy the coin and not being able to buy the coin. Yes, I can see how this can protect some heirs who don't know what they have -- and that it can protect collectors who don't worry about what they pay as long as they don't get crap coins -- but it's certainly not protecting the collector who isn't made of money and suddenly has to pay up a lot more for the nice stuff they used to be able to pick off for less at market prices. (Note this rules out the rip-the-widow card you played earlier.)
Consider Joe Collector. He's a solidly middle class collector, has maybe a few hundred bucks a month (on average) to blow on coins. He has a very good eye for quality, is good at avoiding dipped and doctored coins, and has always been willing to pay up for quality -- well above the sheet for coins in the listed grade -- when the coin warranted it. People who have seen his collection notice the quality and lack of doggy coins for the grade. He is a net buyer of coins, and expects to be for at least another decade or two. He's already dangerously close to being priced out of what he likes to collect because of the sharp runup in coin values over the last five years.
Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe? With as much as I keep hearing this is to "benefit the collector" first and foremost, how is this collector helped more than harmed?
I suspect there are a fair number of Joe Collectors on this forum.
OK, Does this mean that a MS 65 coin that has the CAC sticker is now worth MS 66 Money. Or is it still just worth 65 Money and a MS65 coin that does not have the sticker is only worth 64 money. I thought I read were 85% of the coins would not meet the grade. Would this not cause a crash in coin prices and drive a lot of collectors away from the hobby?
ED .....................................................
<< <i>Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him. >>
How so? Are you implying that you don't see CAC getting into the small potatoes type of coins -- say a few hundred to a couple thousand -- he can afford? That's the only way I see such a collector not bending over to pay escalating prices for the same quality coin for the grade.
Because if CAC is going to make a market in those coins (whether now or down the road), and they manage to get the nicer ones "blessed", I see only one thing happening to the price of that same coin before and after its blessing.
<< <i>Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe?
Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him. >>
I think initially it will benefit those who have and hurt those who want. Prices will go up for stickered coins. Now, I'm unlikely to buy more than a few a year for the next few years of coins we're talking about, but if the prices at the top go up, I can see even unstickered lower end coins bumping as well. That will effect Joe.
My 14 year old, instead of saving for a car, or for a computer, or iPod, is saving for a 1916D Merc. He has this goal of saving 1k for a Good, or 2k for a fine or thereabouts. I know you won't sticker many Mercs, but I am guessing you will dabble with the 16-d - this will effect Joe (Or Jeff & Tyler in this case). He will now have to save 20% more for that coin I could have helped him with or called a trusted dealer today for. It does effect the "Little" people too in the end. Those holding 16-d's you sticker benefit a lot, those needing to purchase them will now have to pay more.
<< <i>Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe?
Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him. >>
I think initially it will benefit those who have and hurt those who want. Prices will go up for stickered coins. Now, I'm unlikely to buy more than a few a year for the next few years of coins we're talking about, but if the prices at the top go up, I can see even unstickered lower end coins bumping as well. That will effect Joe.
My 14 year old, instead of saving for a car, or for a computer, or iPod, is saving for a 1916D Merc. He has this goal of saving 1k for a Good, or 2k for a fine or thereabouts. I know you won't sticker many Mercs, but I am guessing you will dabble with the 16-d - this will effect Joe (Or Jeff & Tyler in this case). He will now have to save 20% more for that coin I could have helped him with or called a trusted dealer today for. It does effect the "Little" people too in the end. Those holding 16-d's you sticker benefit a lot, those needing to purchase them will now have to pay more. >>
Why would the price on a 1916-D in G or F change at all?
<< <i>Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe?
Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him. >>
That's why I collect modern coins.It's for that very reason that the stuck up snobs will alienate the average collector and do whatever they can to drive up prices for mid range classic coins.First it was the TPGs' ..Ok ..that leveled the playing field to organize some standards.Great..!!That put everyone on the same page. Now another grading company..and another.Hey where's the standard.?!?!! Let's get back to ..Basics..here..It's about coins..not no friggin stickers...
<< <i>Why would the price on a 1916-D in G or F change at all? >>
True, we're still waiting to see some sort of official guidelines as to what the CAC will sticker and won't- I haven't read any price/grade/other restriction other than no moderns. Are 2k coins "Below" the threshold? Are Fine coins too low? I'm guessing here based on bits of info from various unofficial sources, but you can see why we will be worried if this isn't true...
<< <i>Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe?
Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him. >>
That's why I collect modern coins.It's for that very reason that the stuck up snobs will alienate the average collector and do whatever they can to drive up prices for mid range classic coins.First it was the TPGs' ..Ok ..that leveled the playing field to organize some standards.Great..!!That put everyone on the same page. Now another grading company..and another.Hey where's the standard.?!?!! Let's get back to ..Basics..here..It's about coins..not no friggin stickers... >>
the same can be said about modern coins. Take a coin out of it's capsule, get it slabbed by a first tier TPG, and WHAMMO; the price "value"/price increases before your eyes. if your analogy is correct, the 'stuck up' modern snobs are taking coins with a value set at 'X' (sometimes not much more than bullion value), and having a TPG put their seal of approval sticker (in a grade form) to sell it for a huge profit to the unsuspecting Joe consumer.
<< <i> the same can be said about modern coins. Take a coin out of it's capsule, get it slabbed by a first tier TPG, and WHAMMO; the price "value"/price increases before your eyes. if your analogy is correct, the 'stuck up' modern snobs are taking coins with a value set at 'X' (sometimes not much more than bullion value), and having a TPG put their seal of approval sticker (in a grade form) to sell it for a huge profit to the unsuspecting Joe consumer. >>
Absolutely..!!The unsuspecting consumer has no concept of a First Strike ..First Relelease..ms/70..pr/70 or any grade at all.Joe wants a nice coin collection..Something thats affordable.That won't put him in debt for a couple of years.When you start you gonna get burned..don't let the burning leave a scar..
<< <i>Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe?
Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him. >>
I think initially it will benefit those who have and hurt those who want. Prices will go up for stickered coins. Now, I'm unlikely to buy more than a few a year for the next few years of coins we're talking about, but if the prices at the top go up, I can see even unstickered lower end coins bumping as well. That will effect Joe.
My 14 year old, instead of saving for a car, or for a computer, or iPod, is saving for a 1916D Merc. He has this goal of saving 1k for a Good, or 2k for a fine or thereabouts. I know you won't sticker many Mercs, but I am guessing you will dabble with the 16-d - this will effect Joe (Or Jeff & Tyler in this case). He will now have to save 20% more for that coin I could have helped him with or called a trusted dealer today for. It does effect the "Little" people too in the end. Those holding 16-d's you sticker benefit a lot, those needing to purchase them will now have to pay more. >>
Why would the price on a 1916-D in G or F change at all? >>
***The following text is simply a copy of a non-affiliated Website's compilation on the CAC****
Public Information compiled on the "Coin Consortium" (Collectors Acceptance Corporation or the "CAC")
This site is in no way affiliated with the newly formed organization which exists in the numismatic market that is currently being referred to as "The Consortium", "Collectors Acceptance Corp" and the "CAC", we're just providing information which is believed to be factual to the public regarding it. Due diligence investigation and accountability is a necessity if a proposed organization of this nature is to win consumer confidence. This site will not be providing its own commentary. Synopsis:
Basically, from the information I've seen, it seems that the goal of the "Coin Consortium" (Their canonical name being Collectors Acceptance Corporation or the CAC) is to provide a second tier authentication/verification/grading service for coins in TPG slabs (PCGS/NGC/?) at a fee (?). The exact details of what they will be authenticating/grading/verifying have yet to be fully revealed. The benefactors and members of this organization seem to primarily be 'major dealers' in the numismatic market. So far the only promise that has been made to the public is that certain dealers will pay more for a coin sight-unseen that has been 'blessed' by the CAC, though the exact method in which coins are to be 'blessed' remains unknown at this time.
The Known Players:
Legend Numismatics (With Bruce M, a silent partner in Legend (claiming repeatedly to only be a collector, not a dealer) committing to infuse the proposed organization with $1,000,000; stated by tradedollarnut (aka Bruce M) on both PCGS' and NGC's message boards on 07/15/2007)
John Albanese (One of the Founders of PCGS, as well as the Founder of NGC)
Douglas Winter Numismatics (As noted in his Newsletter, Douglas Winter is a Charter Member as well as a Grading Consultant)
Mark Feld Rare Coins (Mark Feld is to act as a part time grader for CAC, as stated by Bruce M on PCGS' message board)
Interesting Quotes:
Douglas Winter broke the news regarding the CAC recently in his Newsletter:
"I’m sure you become skeptical when you hear about a plan to change the coin market; I know I am. But a few months ago I was approached by John Albanese to become part of a new organization that I really and truly think WILL have a profound influence on numismatics in the coming years.
For those of you that don’t know him, John is a dealer from New Jersey who is best known for being the founder of NGC (he sold his financial interest in NGC a number of years ago to Mark Salzburg). John is currently a consultant to Blanchard and Co. and he’s been involved in countless big deals over the years. Best of all, John is a great guy and without a doubt the most ethical person I have ever met in the coin business.
John, like me, is discouraged to see how many coins have been ruined in recent years by doctoring and processing. He’s also smart enough to know that two coins in the same holder can be worth significantly different amounts based on their originality and appearance. What he’s going to do is to create an organization who will examine any coin graded by a third-party service and if it adheres to a set of standards, it will be “blessed” by John’s group. Having this seal of approval is going to be extremely important because John and a number of other dealers will be bidding on these approved coins.
Let me give you an example. Let’s say that a typical, average quality Charlotte half eagle in AU50 is worth around $3,000. An AU50 that has John’s seal of approval might have a sight-unseen bid of $4,000 or even $4,500. There will be a network of dealers (including myself) who will have enough confidence in John’s set of standards that we will be willing to pay significant premiums for these coins.
My guess is that around 10-20% of all the rare date gold coins submitted to John’s group will get his seal of approval. John’s standards aren’t going to be ridiculously tight and he is not going to focus only on coins that are obvious upgrade candidates. What he is trying to do is to reward originality and eye appeal and to give dealers a financial impetus to stop dipping n’ stripping their coins in an attempt to get upgrades. My guess is that an AU50 Charlotte half eagle with John’s seal of approval will wind up being worth as much or more than a bright-n-shiny AU55 that John has rejected.
I am proud that Douglas Winter Numismatics is going to be a charter member of this group and that I will be a grading consultant as well. If anyone can pull this off it will be John and he’s told me he already has the backing of nearly every major retailer in the industry, not to mention significant financial backing as well.
Stayed tuned for further developments about this group."
Bruce M of Legend Numismatics, a benefactor of the CAC (aka tradedollarnut on PCGS' message board), has stated in this thread on the PCGS Message Board :
"Apparently, this consortium is willing to put their money on the line and pay 20-40% more for coins graded to their preset standard. Feel free to ignore it, but when it comes time for me to sell, I'll be utilizing the service."
"I will reveal at this point that I will be an owner in the consortium. I emphasize that the creation of the consortium has been about leveling the playing field for the collector. I have been privy to the discussions going on in putting the group together. My motivation is NOT profit - I have all the money I need or want. My motivation is simple: end the crackout game, end wanton conservation and doctoring. I'm sick of seeing AT'd Gobrecht dollars in top tier TPG holders. I'm sick of seeing gold coins so puttied that the face falls off on a felt pad. I'm sick of seeing supposed gem trade dollars that look like someone with golf spikes stepped on them. I'm sick of owning a great coin that cannot be entered on the Registry with all my other coins because of the brand of plastic it resides in.
The collector is better off with a set standard for grading that doesn't flow with time. The collector is better off paying 20-40% more for the lower grade than being forced to buy the next grade up after the crackout guy is done with it. The collector is better off with a Registry that accepts all TPG holdered coins scored to the same standard and not being forced to play the crossover game. The collector is better off with the consortium in place.
It is indeed about the collector."
"No, it means the group has no desire to make a market in moderns.
This is NOT a grading company - it's a market maker. It inspects coins already graded and marks those it will make a market in."
"Individual dealers will not have the power to sticker their coins - the coins will be stickered under the supervision of John Albanese."
Legend Numismatics, Inc. posted on their Market Report dated 07/18/2007:
"THE SECRET START UP ANNOUNCEMENT WAS MADE EARLY!
Some information got leaked on to the PCGS forums without permission about a new venture starting up. It is called CAC for Collectors Acceptance Corporation. While several issues discussed were true, the majority fell short of being complete or fully accurate. Plus many questions were left unanswered. The only offical announcements will come from CAC's founder, John Albanese-the founder of NGC (not affiliated with the retail co. Albanese Numismatics based in Albion NY).
Legend and our partner Bruce Morelan will each be investors in this new service. Take our word on, it WILL benefit collectors of ALL sizes. It WILL dramtically clean up the horrible grading that the grading services are so quick to deny is happening. And it WILL end or really kill the coin doctors. If we did not think it wouldn't at the very least really work and benefit everyone, we would not participate. Things were clearly spinning out of control and it was time to self police or risk a bad future. More will be divuledged shotrly, so stay tuned! Please feel free to email us with any questions."
Relevant Links:
Primary Thread on the PCGS Message Board discussing the CAC
Thread on NGC's US Coin Forum discussing the CAC
Thread on NGC's Numismatic Tangents Forum discussing the CAC
Last Update: 07/16/2007 If you have any factual information regarding the "Coin Consortium", "Collectors Acceptance Corporation", or the "CAC" that you wish to be added, please email it to info@coinconsortium.com.
I see the whole idea as a great step forward for Rare Coins. Too many collectors have been lulled into accepting the slab holder. Now this will get them asking more questions and be more discerning.
Where are we in the market cycle? Top? Middle, certianly not bottom. This may be the thing that redefines the rules and pushes the market for great coins higher. If we are near the top of the market perhaps the stickered coins may just rise a little bit and then stall as buyers rethink the market. Now, someone is in firm control of the pricing and it will be interesting to see how agressive they become. The losers and the avergage certified stuff will mostly get dumped in auctions by the truckload! Look for prices of these to drift lower. If a liquidity problem hits the market, the average and low end stuff will suffer. It may not be out of line to see a 50% difference between some stickered coins and the dregs, eventually. This would be accomplished by the dregs lowering in value, IMO.
Hopefully it will be possible to crack out the dregs and get them into the lower grade holder, add the sticker with no loss.
<< In my case, absolutely none. This is only being done to protect the collector [or his heirs]. >>
I believe you sincerely believe this, but I also think your financial situation has you less sensitive to the issue of spiraling prices for the "good stuff". It seems hard for you to relate to how this is a very real issue to some of us.
Maybe a nice coin moving from $1000 to $1500 because it's been CAC-blessed doesn't seem like much to you. For some of us, it's huge. It could be difference between being able to buy the coin and not being able to buy the coin. Yes, I can see how this can protect some heirs who don't know what they have -- and that it can protect collectors who don't worry about what they pay as long as they don't get crap coins -- but it's certainly not protecting the collector who isn't made of money and suddenly has to pay up a lot more for the nice stuff they used to be able to pick off for less at market prices. (Note this rules out the rip-the-widow card you played earlier.)
Consider Joe Collector. He's a solidly middle class collector, has maybe a few hundred bucks a month (on average) to blow on coins. He has a very good eye for quality, is good at avoiding dipped and doctored coins, and has always been willing to pay up for quality -- well above the sheet for coins in the listed grade -- when the coin warranted it. People who have seen his collection notice the quality and lack of doggy coins for the grade. He is a net buyer of coins, and expects to be for at least another decade or two. He's already dangerously close to being priced out of what he likes to collect because of the sharp runup in coin values over the last five years.
Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe? With as much as I keep hearing this is to "benefit the collector" first and foremost, how is this collector helped more than harmed?
I suspect there are a fair number of Joe Collectors on this forum.
------------------------- Thanks to all for giving my slabbed coins a new home! Proceeds to fund raw album collecting! ------------------------- You have been eloquent and persuasive throughout, ziggy. I may be missing something, but I see only net downside for Joe Collector. It's not that I'd be protected from spending $90,000 for a $50,000 coin, but that $900 strong money for a technical AU-58 will likely become $2500 for a market-graded MS-62, and thus an unlikely coin for John I mean Joe Collector. That is not CAC's intention, but it will be as you say: big money will price ambitious middle money out of play.
CAC's founding philosophy to hold the line and stem grade-flation is worthy. And with a federation of like-minded dealers they can do it, and restore some consistency to the higher tier of the market. But it is not intended for Joe Collector or his heirs. TDN, was the benefit to the heirs a recently added selling point by the consortium?
Guys, I'll be reading on for a persuasive rebuttal to ziggy, but for now, I think it's plain that this CAC project is like another well-intentioned escape from reality: it means well, but it has not shown any serious consideration of the very real potential downsides, nor to acknowledge such risks exist in a significant way. It's just, "the benefits outweigh the disadvantages, and charge ahead" without giving responsible STUDY to the disadvantages.
<< <i>Now it's written that the CAC is going to identify the upgrade candidates for the collector and there's still wailing. >>
Sorry, TDN, but stickering a coin as an upgrade candidate is a terrible idea. You know as well as anyone that it amounts to a neon sign flashing the message "Attention crackout artists, the CAC did the work for you!" It also adds a confusing layer to the process. They should just stick to a simple solid for the grade yes or no process.
Russ, NCNE >>
A CAC stickered coin as an upgrade candidate is worth far more than the risk of a crackout effort, and in many instances I can see the coin bringing next grade up prices anyway without a specific designation by one of the TPG's.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Just like TPG grading itself, the new system may raise prices for so-called PQ coins. I've seen some crazy pricing evolve for stamps since PSE started grading them. It was frustrating to realize that it would be tougher to cherrypick perfectly centered stamps, but shouldn't it be that way? Why should I be able to get something for close to nothing?
I don't really believe that this CAC is a blow to "Joe Collector." Joe has been paying premium prices for premium coins all along, unless he took advantage of someone else's lesser acumen. Joe, who deep inside may not really believe he knows everything, gets the benefit of knowing the higher price is justified. Finally, Joe has a better shot at selling his current pieces at the prices they deserve.
And btw, I don't see how Joseph Investor III benefits from driving prices out of reach of collectors. If he's really that stupid to want to replay 1989, his day in the sun won't last long anyway.
Wow another grading company! And this one is so good they can grade through plastic! Sign me up! NOT! I think W. C. Fields had something to say about things like this, and it wasn't "Some weasel took the cork out of my lunch."
If CAC is doing this for the collectors, why have they been buying PQ coins to sticker? Who are they buying these coins from? So basicly they are making a market to sell the $10,000,000 in coins they have bought and stickered at an instant 40% markup?
It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!
<< <i>If CAC is doing this for the collectors, why have they been buying PQ coins to sticker? Who are they buying these coins from? So basicly they are making a market to sell the $10,000,000 in coins they have bought and stickered at an instant 40% markup? >>
<< <i>Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe?
Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him. >>
Bruce, you cannot put it much simpler. Kudos though... it sure is a hot topic across the entire spectrum and I find you a decent fellow who would continue to attempt enlightening people. I think the efforts are valiant no matter what seeds of doubt I might throw out there. It's a test of one's character.
Sincerely,
Unimpacted Joe
P.S. You are gracious by addressing the issues. We still owe PCGS and CU a great deal of gratitude for playing host. They don't deserve to have their graders insulted when the graders themselves are barred from responding. I do take certain offense to the words "incompetent graders". Lest we forget; To err is human. Graders are employees and much is expected of them.
Comments
It's a straw man argument. My dealer (or darned near any dealer on the bourse) will gladly tell me he thinks a coin sucks for the grade. I don't have to have it on a blacklist for him to know.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
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<< <i>That would cause hard feelings and the TPG's principals could no longer play 16 holes with the CAC's principals. >>
16? >>
Sure. That's how I shoot a 72 every round.
The last time I plaid 16 holes was in grad school, when I had to quit early and rush back home to my then fiance's by some arbitrary time deadline she had established.
Thankfully, I nipped that behavior in the bud.
<< <i>
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<< <i>That would cause hard feelings and the TPG's principals could no longer play 16 holes with the CAC's principals. >>
16? >>
Sure. That's how I shoot a 72 every round.
The last time I plaid 16 holes was in grad school, when I had to quit early and rush back home to my then fiance's by some arbitrary time deadline she had established.
Thankfully, I nipped that behavior in the bud. >>
Right. Now you stop at 14 so you don't have to rush.
<< <i>The last time I plaid 16 holes was in grad school, when I had to quit early and rush back home to my then fiance's by some arbitrary time deadline she had established.
Thankfully, I nipped that behavior in the bud. >>
Nipped which behavior? Playing only 16 or listening to her?
Of course you forgot to add "when I'm trying to SELL him a coin" after the first sentence above.
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<< <i>That would cause hard feelings and the TPG's principals could no longer play 16 holes with the CAC's principals. >>
16? >>
Sure. That's how I shoot a 72 every round.
The last time I plaid 16 holes was in grad school, when I had to quit early and rush back home to my then fiance's by some arbitrary time deadline she had established.
Thankfully, I nipped that behavior in the bud. >>
Right. Now you stop at 14 so you don't have to rush.
It was easier to just give up golf.
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<< <i>That would cause hard feelings and the TPG's principals could no longer play 16 holes with the CAC's principals. >>
16? >>
Sure. That's how I shoot a 72 every round.
The last time I plaid 16 holes was in grad school, when I had to quit early and rush back home to my then fiance's by some arbitrary time deadline she had established.
Thankfully, I nipped that behavior in the bud. >>
Right. Now you stop at 14 so you don't have to rush.
It should be noted that I also did the dishes after every meal, and sent her flowers for no special occasion with a card that read 'Happy Saturday'. In other words, I was on my best bhavior.
Now I'd think nothing of playing 27, and then stopping at a bar on the way home*.
* I'm sure that last part was written facetiously.
<< <i>It should be noted that I also did the dishes after every meal, and sent her flowers for no special occasion with a card that read 'Happy Saturday'. In other words, I was on my best bhavior.
Now I'd think nothing of playing for 27 minutes, and then stopping at a bar on the way home to buy dinner and flowers to say I'm sorry for being late. >>
Russ, NCNE
The CAC needs to think this through a little better. I can see that an "upgrade sticker" would be something they could introduce a few years hence AFTER the original sticker concept takes hold.
The third party system evolved from a grading system of 50-55-50-63-65-67 to a 50-53-55-58-60-61-62-63-64-65-66-67-68-69-70 over many years.
As a collector, I love the idea of a upgrade sticker but as an unbiased observer, I think the CAC is pushing too hard to do too many things at the outset.
<< <i>My personal reaction: I believe the "upgrade potential" sticker will damage the inherent value of the "solid for the grade" stickers and possibly undermine the long term revenues of the CAC.
The CAC needs to think this through a little better. I can see that an "upgrade sticker" would be something they could introduce a few years hence AFTER the original sticker concept takes hold.
The third party system evolved from a grading system of 50-55-50-63-65-67 to a 50-53-55-58-60-61-62-63-64-65-66-67-68-69-70 over many years.
As a collector, I love the idea of a upgrade sticker but as an unbiased observer, I think the CAC is pushing too hard to do too many things at the outset. >>
I agree. I like the simplicity of just "good coin" and "bad coin". Otherwise, you are running a poor man's grading service.
Russ, so far as I know, collectors can only submit through a dealer.
<< <i>Russ, so far as I know, collectors can only submit through a dealer. >>
If that's the case, it's another nail in the "upgrade sticker" coffin. If a collector could submit directly, then it's likely the upgrade stickered coin actually would stay in his collection to protect his "heirs". However, since the coins must travel through a dealer plenty of them will end up being crackout fodder.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I could also argue that the NGC* designation serves a similar purpose, and again, if that concept were adopted by PCGS, then the need for CAC would seem to be minimal. >>
Based on what I've seen, most NGC* coins might not get a sticker at all.
<< <i>Certified coins that are believed to be under-graded will be issued special stickers designating the coins as potential upgrade candidates. >>
The cynic in me wonders how much slabbing company stock the CAC or their principles have or are planning to obtain in the short term.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
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<< <i>Certified coins that are believed to be under-graded will be issued special stickers designating the coins as potential upgrade candidates. >>
The cynic in me wonders how much slabbing company stock the CAC or their principles have or are planning to obtain in the short term. >>
In my case, absolutely none. This is only being done to protect the collector [or his heirs].
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<< <i>Certified coins that are believed to be under-graded will be issued special stickers designating the coins as potential upgrade candidates. >>
The cynic in me wonders how much slabbing company stock the CAC or their principles have or are planning to obtain in the short term. >>
The realist in me understands that the aim of the CAC will be to reduce the crackout game by incentivizing other behaviors, which would tend to reduce submissions. Any tiny bump in increased grading activity from these "upgrade" stickers, estimated earlier to be in the 1 in 100 range, is a fart in a windstorm compared to the modern bullion slabbing bonanza. In fact, it makes me wonder if Mint officials have invested in grading companies.
would be to enclose the slab and the stickers is a ball of armour grade
plexiplastic.
Camelot
<< <i>In my case, absolutely none. This is only being done to protect the collector [or his heirs]. >>
I believe you sincerely believe this, but I also think your financial situation has you less sensitive to the issue of spiraling prices for the "good stuff". It seems hard for you to relate to how this is a very real issue to some of us.
Maybe a nice coin moving from $1000 to $1500 because it's been CAC-blessed doesn't seem like much to you. For some of us, it's huge. It could be difference between being able to buy the coin and not being able to buy the coin. Yes, I can see how this can protect some heirs who don't know what they have -- and that it can protect collectors who don't worry about what they pay as long as they don't get crap coins -- but it's certainly not protecting the collector who isn't made of money and suddenly has to pay up a lot more for the nice stuff they used to be able to pick off for less at market prices. (Note this rules out the rip-the-widow card you played earlier.)
Consider Joe Collector. He's a solidly middle class collector, has maybe a few hundred bucks a month (on average) to blow on coins. He has a very good eye for quality, is good at avoiding dipped and doctored coins, and has always been willing to pay up for quality -- well above the sheet for coins in the listed grade -- when the coin warranted it. People who have seen his collection notice the quality and lack of doggy coins for the grade. He is a net buyer of coins, and expects to be for at least another decade or two. He's already dangerously close to being priced out of what he likes to collect because of the sharp runup in coin values over the last five years.
Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe? With as much as I keep hearing this is to "benefit the collector" first and foremost, how is this collector helped more than harmed?
I suspect there are a fair number of Joe Collectors on this forum.
Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him.
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<< <i>Based on what I've seen, most NGC* coins might not get a sticker at all. >>
I agree. I've seen far too many star designated plain jane common coins lately that had me scratching my head.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him. >>
How so? Are you implying that you don't see CAC getting into the small potatoes type of coins -- say a few hundred to a couple thousand -- he can afford? That's the only way I see such a collector not bending over to pay escalating prices for the same quality coin for the grade.
Because if CAC is going to make a market in those coins (whether now or down the road), and they manage to get the nicer ones "blessed", I see only one thing happening to the price of that same coin before and after its blessing.
<< <i>Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe?
Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him. >>
I think initially it will benefit those who have and hurt those who want. Prices will go up for stickered coins. Now, I'm unlikely to buy more than a few a year for the next few years of coins we're talking about, but if the prices at the top go up, I can see even unstickered lower end coins bumping as well. That will effect Joe.
My 14 year old, instead of saving for a car, or for a computer, or iPod, is saving for a 1916D Merc. He has this goal of saving 1k for a Good, or 2k for a fine or thereabouts. I know you won't sticker many Mercs, but I am guessing you will dabble with the 16-d - this will effect Joe (Or Jeff & Tyler in this case). He will now have to save 20% more for that coin I could have helped him with or called a trusted dealer today for. It does effect the "Little" people too in the end. Those holding 16-d's you sticker benefit a lot, those needing to purchase them will now have to pay more.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
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<< <i>Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe?
Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him. >>
I think initially it will benefit those who have and hurt those who want. Prices will go up for stickered coins. Now, I'm unlikely to buy more than a few a year for the next few years of coins we're talking about, but if the prices at the top go up, I can see even unstickered lower end coins bumping as well. That will effect Joe.
My 14 year old, instead of saving for a car, or for a computer, or iPod, is saving for a 1916D Merc. He has this goal of saving 1k for a Good, or 2k for a fine or thereabouts. I know you won't sticker many Mercs, but I am guessing you will dabble with the 16-d - this will effect Joe (Or Jeff & Tyler in this case). He will now have to save 20% more for that coin I could have helped him with or called a trusted dealer today for. It does effect the "Little" people too in the end. Those holding 16-d's you sticker benefit a lot, those needing to purchase them will now have to pay more. >>
Why would the price on a 1916-D in G or F change at all?
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<< <i>Based on what I've seen, most NGC* coins might not get a sticker at all. >>
I agree. I've seen far too many star designated plain jane common coins lately that had me scratching my head.
Russ, NCNE >>
It seems to be either that, or something with ridiculous toning.
<< <i>Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe?
Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him. >>
That's why I collect modern coins.It's for that very reason that the stuck up snobs will alienate the average collector and do whatever they can to drive up prices for mid range classic coins.First it was the TPGs' ..Ok ..that leveled the playing field to organize some standards.Great..!!That put everyone on the same page. Now another grading company..and another.Hey where's the standard.?!?!!
Let's get back to ..Basics..here..It's about coins..not no friggin stickers...
<< <i>Why would the price on a 1916-D in G or F change at all?
True, we're still waiting to see some sort of official guidelines as to what the CAC will sticker and won't- I haven't read any price/grade/other restriction other than no moderns. Are 2k coins "Below" the threshold? Are Fine coins too low? I'm guessing here based on bits of info from various unofficial sources, but you can see why we will be worried if this isn't true...
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
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<< <i>Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe?
Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him. >>
That's why I collect modern coins.It's for that very reason that the stuck up snobs will alienate the average collector and do whatever they can to drive up prices for mid range classic coins.First it was the TPGs' ..Ok ..that leveled the playing field to organize some standards.Great..!!That put everyone on the same page. Now another grading company..and another.Hey where's the standard.?!?!!
Let's get back to ..Basics..here..It's about coins..not no friggin stickers... >>
the same can be said about modern coins. Take a coin out of it's capsule, get it slabbed by a first tier TPG, and WHAMMO; the price "value"/price increases before your eyes. if your analogy is correct, the 'stuck up' modern snobs are taking coins with a value set at 'X' (sometimes not much more than bullion value), and having a TPG put their seal of approval sticker (in a grade form) to sell it for a huge profit to the unsuspecting Joe consumer.
PlanetSteve makes a good point. Of course, this means that if you need slabs, you need the stickers. Doesn't mean you want them, but you do need them.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
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the same can be said about modern coins. Take a coin out of it's capsule, get it slabbed by a first tier TPG, and WHAMMO; the price "value"/price increases before your eyes. if your analogy is correct, the 'stuck up' modern snobs are taking coins with a value set at 'X' (sometimes not much more than bullion value), and having a TPG put their seal of approval sticker (in a grade form) to sell it for a huge profit to the unsuspecting Joe consumer. >>
Absolutely..!!The unsuspecting consumer has no concept of a First Strike ..First Relelease..ms/70..pr/70 or any grade at all.Joe wants a nice coin collection..Something thats affordable.That won't put him in debt for a couple of years.When you start you gonna get burned..don't let the burning leave a scar..
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<< <i>Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe?
Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him. >>
I think initially it will benefit those who have and hurt those who want. Prices will go up for stickered coins. Now, I'm unlikely to buy more than a few a year for the next few years of coins we're talking about, but if the prices at the top go up, I can see even unstickered lower end coins bumping as well. That will effect Joe.
My 14 year old, instead of saving for a car, or for a computer, or iPod, is saving for a 1916D Merc. He has this goal of saving 1k for a Good, or 2k for a fine or thereabouts. I know you won't sticker many Mercs, but I am guessing you will dabble with the 16-d - this will effect Joe (Or Jeff & Tyler in this case). He will now have to save 20% more for that coin I could have helped him with or called a trusted dealer today for. It does effect the "Little" people too in the end. Those holding 16-d's you sticker benefit a lot, those needing to purchase them will now have to pay more. >>
Why would the price on a 1916-D in G or F change at all?
you miss my earlier post?
Public Information compiled on the "Coin Consortium" (Collectors Acceptance Corporation or the "CAC")
This site is in no way affiliated with the newly formed organization which exists in the numismatic market that is currently being referred to as "The Consortium", "Collectors Acceptance Corp" and the "CAC", we're just providing information which is believed to be factual to the public regarding it. Due diligence investigation and accountability is a necessity if a proposed organization of this nature is to win consumer confidence. This site will not be providing its own commentary.
Synopsis:
Basically, from the information I've seen, it seems that the goal of the "Coin Consortium" (Their canonical name being Collectors Acceptance Corporation or the CAC) is to provide a second tier authentication/verification/grading service for coins in TPG slabs (PCGS/NGC/?) at a fee (?). The exact details of what they will be authenticating/grading/verifying have yet to be fully revealed. The benefactors and members of this organization seem to primarily be 'major dealers' in the numismatic market. So far the only promise that has been made to the public is that certain dealers will pay more for a coin sight-unseen that has been 'blessed' by the CAC, though the exact method in which coins are to be 'blessed' remains unknown at this time.
The Known Players:
Legend Numismatics (With Bruce M, a silent partner in Legend (claiming repeatedly to only be a collector, not a dealer) committing to infuse the proposed organization with $1,000,000; stated by tradedollarnut (aka Bruce M) on both PCGS' and NGC's message boards on 07/15/2007)
John Albanese (One of the Founders of PCGS, as well as the Founder of NGC)
Douglas Winter Numismatics (As noted in his Newsletter, Douglas Winter is a Charter Member as well as a Grading Consultant)
Mark Feld Rare Coins (Mark Feld is to act as a part time grader for CAC, as stated by Bruce M on PCGS' message board)
Interesting Quotes:
Douglas Winter broke the news regarding the CAC recently in his Newsletter:
"I’m sure you become skeptical when you hear about a plan to change the coin market; I know I am. But a few months ago I was approached by John Albanese to become part of a new organization that I really and truly think WILL have a profound influence on numismatics in the coming years.
For those of you that don’t know him, John is a dealer from New Jersey who is best known for being the founder of NGC (he sold his financial interest in NGC a number of years ago to Mark Salzburg). John is currently a consultant to Blanchard and Co. and he’s been involved in countless big deals over the years. Best of all, John is a great guy and without a doubt the most ethical person I have ever met in the coin business.
John, like me, is discouraged to see how many coins have been ruined in recent years by doctoring and processing. He’s also smart enough to know that two coins in the same holder can be worth significantly different amounts based on their originality and appearance. What he’s going to do is to create an organization who will examine any coin graded by a third-party service and if it adheres to a set of standards, it will be “blessed” by John’s group. Having this seal of approval is going to be extremely important because John and a number of other dealers will be bidding on these approved coins.
Let me give you an example. Let’s say that a typical, average quality Charlotte half eagle in AU50 is worth around $3,000. An AU50 that has John’s seal of approval might have a sight-unseen bid of $4,000 or even $4,500. There will be a network of dealers (including myself) who will have enough confidence in John’s set of standards that we will be willing to pay significant premiums for these coins.
My guess is that around 10-20% of all the rare date gold coins submitted to John’s group will get his seal of approval. John’s standards aren’t going to be ridiculously tight and he is not going to focus only on coins that are obvious upgrade candidates. What he is trying to do is to reward originality and eye appeal and to give dealers a financial impetus to stop dipping n’ stripping their coins in an attempt to get upgrades. My guess is that an AU50 Charlotte half eagle with John’s seal of approval will wind up being worth as much or more than a bright-n-shiny AU55 that John has rejected.
I am proud that Douglas Winter Numismatics is going to be a charter member of this group and that I will be a grading consultant as well. If anyone can pull this off it will be John and he’s told me he already has the backing of nearly every major retailer in the industry, not to mention significant financial backing as well.
Stayed tuned for further developments about this group."
Bruce M of Legend Numismatics, a benefactor of the CAC (aka tradedollarnut on PCGS' message board), has stated in this thread on the PCGS Message Board :
"Apparently, this consortium is willing to put their money on the line and pay 20-40% more for coins graded to their preset standard. Feel free to ignore it, but when it comes time for me to sell, I'll be utilizing the service."
"I will reveal at this point that I will be an owner in the consortium. I emphasize that the creation of the consortium has been about leveling the playing field for the collector. I have been privy to the discussions going on in putting the group together. My motivation is NOT profit - I have all the money I need or want. My motivation is simple: end the crackout game, end wanton conservation and doctoring. I'm sick of seeing AT'd Gobrecht dollars in top tier TPG holders. I'm sick of seeing gold coins so puttied that the face falls off on a felt pad. I'm sick of seeing supposed gem trade dollars that look like someone with golf spikes stepped on them. I'm sick of owning a great coin that cannot be entered on the Registry with all my other coins because of the brand of plastic it resides in.
The collector is better off with a set standard for grading that doesn't flow with time. The collector is better off paying 20-40% more for the lower grade than being forced to buy the next grade up after the crackout guy is done with it. The collector is better off with a Registry that accepts all TPG holdered coins scored to the same standard and not being forced to play the crossover game. The collector is better off with the consortium in place.
It is indeed about the collector."
"No, it means the group has no desire to make a market in moderns.
This is NOT a grading company - it's a market maker. It inspects coins already graded and marks those it will make a market in."
"Individual dealers will not have the power to sticker their coins - the coins will be stickered under the supervision of John Albanese."
Legend Numismatics, Inc. posted on their Market Report dated 07/18/2007:
"THE SECRET START UP ANNOUNCEMENT WAS MADE EARLY!
Some information got leaked on to the PCGS forums without permission about a new venture starting up. It is called CAC for Collectors Acceptance Corporation. While several issues discussed were true, the majority fell short of being complete or fully accurate. Plus many questions were left unanswered. The only offical announcements will come from CAC's founder, John Albanese-the founder of NGC (not affiliated with the retail co. Albanese Numismatics based in Albion NY).
Legend and our partner Bruce Morelan will each be investors in this new service. Take our word on, it WILL benefit collectors of ALL sizes. It WILL dramtically clean up the horrible grading that the grading services are so quick to deny is happening. And it WILL end or really kill the coin doctors. If we did not think it wouldn't at the very least really work and benefit everyone, we would not participate. Things were clearly spinning out of control and it was time to self police or risk a bad future. More will be divuledged shotrly, so stay tuned! Please feel free to email us with any questions."
Relevant Links:
Primary Thread on the PCGS Message Board discussing the CAC
Thread on NGC's US Coin Forum discussing the CAC
Thread on NGC's Numismatic Tangents Forum discussing the CAC
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Last Update: 07/16/2007
If you have any factual information regarding the "Coin Consortium", "Collectors Acceptance Corporation", or the "CAC" that you wish to be added, please email it to info@coinconsortium.com.
LINK
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can't be approved.....................it's an error slab.
Herb
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Where are we in the market cycle? Top? Middle, certianly not bottom. This may be the thing that redefines the rules and pushes the market for great coins higher. If we are near the top of the market perhaps the stickered coins may just rise a little bit and then stall as buyers rethink the market. Now, someone is in firm control of the pricing and it will be interesting to see how agressive they become. The losers and the avergage certified stuff will mostly get dumped in auctions by the truckload! Look for prices of these to drift lower. If a liquidity problem hits the market, the average and low end stuff will suffer. It may not be out of line to see a 50% difference between some stickered coins and the dregs, eventually. This would be accomplished by the dregs lowering in value, IMO.
Hopefully it will be possible to crack out the dregs and get them into the lower grade holder, add the sticker with no loss.
is making me loose faith , and I am one who blindly supported them wholeheartedly from the beginning .
This post is a joke ; we don`t need to be told what 90% of us already know (what's P.Q) - we need to cull out the crap on the market ;
this sticker will not stop coin doctoring nor will it have any effect on cracking out a coin :except to make it easier to pick the one's to crack out
I believe you sincerely believe this, but I also think your financial situation has you less sensitive to the issue of spiraling prices for the "good stuff". It seems hard for you to relate to how this is a very real issue to some of us.
Maybe a nice coin moving from $1000 to $1500 because it's been CAC-blessed doesn't seem like much to you. For some of us, it's huge. It could be difference between being able to buy the coin and not being able to buy the coin. Yes, I can see how this can protect some heirs who don't know what they have -- and that it can protect collectors who don't worry about what they pay as long as they don't get crap coins -- but it's certainly not protecting the collector who isn't made of money and suddenly has to pay up a lot more for the nice stuff they used to be able to pick off for less at market prices. (Note this rules out the rip-the-widow card you played earlier.)
Consider Joe Collector. He's a solidly middle class collector, has maybe a few hundred bucks a month (on average) to blow on coins. He has a very good eye for quality, is good at avoiding dipped and doctored coins, and has always been willing to pay up for quality -- well above the sheet for coins in the listed grade -- when the coin warranted it. People who have seen his collection notice the quality and lack of doggy coins for the grade. He is a net buyer of coins, and expects to be for at least another decade or two. He's already dangerously close to being priced out of what he likes to collect because of the sharp runup in coin values over the last five years.
Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe? With as much as I keep hearing this is to "benefit the collector" first and foremost, how is this collector helped more than harmed?
I suspect there are a fair number of Joe Collectors on this forum.
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Thanks to all for giving my slabbed coins a new home! Proceeds to fund raw album collecting!
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You have been eloquent and persuasive throughout, ziggy. I may be missing something, but I see only net downside for Joe Collector. It's not that I'd be protected from spending $90,000 for a $50,000 coin, but that $900 strong money for a technical AU-58 will likely become $2500 for a market-graded MS-62, and thus an unlikely coin for John I mean Joe Collector. That is not CAC's intention, but it will be as you say: big money will price ambitious middle money out of play.
CAC's founding philosophy to hold the line and stem grade-flation is worthy. And with a federation of like-minded dealers they can do it, and restore some consistency to the higher tier of the market. But it is not intended for Joe Collector or his heirs. TDN, was the benefit to the heirs a recently added selling point by the consortium?
Guys, I'll be reading on for a persuasive rebuttal to ziggy, but for now, I think it's plain that this CAC project is like another well-intentioned escape from reality: it means well, but it has not shown any serious consideration of the very real potential downsides, nor to acknowledge such risks exist in a significant way. It's just, "the benefits outweigh the disadvantages, and charge ahead" without giving responsible STUDY to the disadvantages.
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<< <i>Now it's written that the CAC is going to identify the upgrade candidates for the collector and there's still wailing. >>
Sorry, TDN, but stickering a coin as an upgrade candidate is a terrible idea. You know as well as anyone that it amounts to a neon sign flashing the message "Attention crackout artists, the CAC did the work for you!" It also adds a confusing layer to the process. They should just stick to a simple solid for the grade yes or no process.
Russ, NCNE >>
A CAC stickered coin as an upgrade candidate is worth far more than the risk of a crackout effort, and in many instances I can see the coin bringing next grade up prices anyway without a specific designation by one of the TPG's.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
I don't really believe that this CAC is a blow to "Joe Collector." Joe has been paying premium prices for premium coins all along, unless he took advantage of someone else's lesser acumen. Joe, who deep inside may not really believe he knows everything, gets the benefit of knowing the higher price is justified. Finally, Joe has a better shot at selling his current pieces at the prices they deserve.
And btw, I don't see how Joseph Investor III benefits from driving prices out of reach of collectors. If he's really that stupid to want to replay 1989, his day in the sun won't last long anyway.
Sign me up! NOT!
I think W. C. Fields had something to say about things like this, and it wasn't "Some weasel took the cork out of my lunch."
<< <i>If CAC is doing this for the collectors, why have they been buying PQ coins to sticker? Who are they buying these coins from? So basicly they are making a market to sell the $10,000,000 in coins they have bought and stickered at an instant 40% markup? >>
....with new buzz pharses every minute.
<< <i>Can you name one significant benefit CAC will provide for a collector like Joe?
Joe likely won't be impacted either way by CAC - it's a non issue to him. >>
Bruce, you cannot put it much simpler. Kudos though... it sure is a hot topic across the entire spectrum and I find you a decent fellow who would continue to attempt enlightening people.
I think the efforts are valiant no matter what seeds of doubt I might throw out there. It's a test of one's character.
Sincerely,
Unimpacted Joe
P.S. You are gracious by addressing the issues. We still owe PCGS and CU a great deal of gratitude for playing host. They don't deserve to have their graders insulted when the graders themselves are barred from responding. I do take certain offense to the words "incompetent graders". Lest we forget;
To err is human. Graders are employees and much is expected of them.