1817 is the twentieth informative picture thread covering the Capped Bust Half series. Show your Bus
mozin
Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
This is the twentieth in a series of informative picture threads covering the lettered edge Capped Bust Half Dollars from 1807-36 in reverse year order.
General guidelines:
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
Link to all previous Capped Bust Half series threads
YOU CAN POST TO THESE THREADS ANYTIME...IT IS NEVER TOO LATE!!!
PLEASE CONTRIBUTE: Post Bust Half pictures with or without descriptions, or just make a comment indicating an interest. ALL INPUT IS MUCH APPRECIATED.
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1817 CAPPED BUST HALF DOLLARS
Chief Engraver Robert Scot created a new master die in 1817. The obverse relief was lowered, and Liberty’s hair details were modified. The folds in the cap were more detailed, and Liberty was given a smaller nose. The lower relief would make the coins strike up better, and also would lessen wear on the dies. Typical strike for 1817 was good.
Mintage of 1,215,567 places 1817 6th lowest of the 29 mint years. No other silver coins were mint produced in 1817. Due to the mint fire on January 11, 1816, no 1816 Capped Bust Halves were ever minted. There were 9 obverse and 7 reverse dies used in 1817, to make 11 regular marriages and two overdates. The 1817/3 O-101 is R2, while the 1817/4 O-102 is R7. The 1817 O-104 is R6.
RED BOOK also lists the 181.7 Punctuated Date O-103 R2, and the Single Leaf Reverse O-106a R4. The O-106 prime is only R2.
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Some diagnostics for 1817 O-113 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of a dentil. Lowest point of star 1 is recut. Star 13 is very high relative to the curl. Inner point of star 8 is recut.
Reverse: Die line under beak makes it look like eagle is eating a worm. Centering dot between crossbars 4 & 5 at left. Right sides of I and T in line.
General guidelines:
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
Link to all previous Capped Bust Half series threads
YOU CAN POST TO THESE THREADS ANYTIME...IT IS NEVER TOO LATE!!!
PLEASE CONTRIBUTE: Post Bust Half pictures with or without descriptions, or just make a comment indicating an interest. ALL INPUT IS MUCH APPRECIATED.
===================================================================
1817 CAPPED BUST HALF DOLLARS
Chief Engraver Robert Scot created a new master die in 1817. The obverse relief was lowered, and Liberty’s hair details were modified. The folds in the cap were more detailed, and Liberty was given a smaller nose. The lower relief would make the coins strike up better, and also would lessen wear on the dies. Typical strike for 1817 was good.
Mintage of 1,215,567 places 1817 6th lowest of the 29 mint years. No other silver coins were mint produced in 1817. Due to the mint fire on January 11, 1816, no 1816 Capped Bust Halves were ever minted. There were 9 obverse and 7 reverse dies used in 1817, to make 11 regular marriages and two overdates. The 1817/3 O-101 is R2, while the 1817/4 O-102 is R7. The 1817 O-104 is R6.
RED BOOK also lists the 181.7 Punctuated Date O-103 R2, and the Single Leaf Reverse O-106a R4. The O-106 prime is only R2.
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Some diagnostics for 1817 O-113 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of a dentil. Lowest point of star 1 is recut. Star 13 is very high relative to the curl. Inner point of star 8 is recut.
Reverse: Die line under beak makes it look like eagle is eating a worm. Centering dot between crossbars 4 & 5 at left. Right sides of I and T in line.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
0
Comments
O-111
Obverse: A die defect line extends downward from end of ribbon 3mm.
Capped Bust Half Series
Capped Bust Half Dime Series
Overton 106...easily recognized by the heavy ridge extending from Liberty's cap to the rim. Be sure to check the reverse on yours to see if you have the "single leaf" die state. (This isn't.)
The only 17 that I have is the overdate that Kyle posted, so let me at least add mine to this thread.
Lots of clashing going on.....
Here is the 181.7 Punctuated Date O-103
It utilizes Obverse 3 with Reverse B
Some characteristics are:
Obv- A round die defect dot to the right of the second 1, the second 1 slants left more than the other figures
Rev- The I's in UNITED and AMERICA have no lower right serifs causing them to look like J's
The reverse shows the horizontal tooling mark from the tip of the feathers of upper arrow shaft.
But this specimen also shows a doubled profile. According to Souders work, “Bust Half Fever” second edition,
he only documents the doubled profile on 3 different varieties of the 1817,
O-106, O-109, and O-113a
Coincidently, of the 11 regular varieties, the O-111 is the only R1 for this date, with the granddaddy of them all, the O-102 (1817/4) being an R7.
Wait, I am without a whole bunch of different Busties.
<< <i>The triple segment shown on cmanbb's coin is thought to be caused by incorrect spacing of the dentils. The first dentil punched into the die was one either to the right or left of the squeezed middle dentil. The diesinker proceeded around the periphery of the die, punching dentils one by one (possibly 2x2) until he returned to the starting point and found that he didn't have enough space, so the "middle" dentil was squeezed in as best as possible. On early die state 110s, there is clear separation of the three dentils, but late state coins appear to have a large conjoined single dentil. >>
My 1817 O-110a is a later die state, showing three dentils into one big one. I will show it soon.
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cmanbb,
I wish I could scan the die line at the feather tip as well as you have shown.
Here's another set of shots of the punctuated date variety 181.7 - O. 103, listed as an R.2.
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
Some diagnostics for Punctuated Date 181.7 O-103 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of dentil. On this early die state, there is a dot between the 1 and 7. Second 1 slants left. There is a triple dentil left of the date. (Obverse shared with O-105.)
Reverse: Right lower serif on I’s is defective, making them look like J’s. Right sides of I and T in line.
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Here is something a little different.
Some diagnostics for late die state of the Punctuated Date 1817 O-103a R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of dentil. On this late die state, there is no dot between the 1 and 7. Second 1 slants left. There is a triple dentil left of the date. (Obverse shared with O-105.)
Reverse: Right lower serif on I’s is defective, making them look like J's. Right sides of I and T in line.
Note: On a still later die state, a new lower dot shows closer to the 7. Some of us think this O-103b is R6.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Talk about a nice pocket piece.
Some characteristics are:
Obv- stars all close to the milling, the 7 in the date is wider and higher than 181 and there are several fine vertical lines in front of the throat from the jaw to the upper chest.
Rev- the I is left of the T, RI in AMERICA are joined at the base and the I is higher than the base of the R, The a die state has a die crack from the olive stem circling thru the leaves to the top of UNITED ST
Welcome to the Capped Bust Half Dollar series. You have a nice crusty 1817/3.
<< <i>bidask,
Welcome to the Capped Bust Half Dollar series. You have a nice crusty 1817/3.
Why thanks, it is a NGC 53.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Some diagnostics for 1817/3 O-101a R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. There are often a series of die lumps, most often seen back and behind cap, and below star 13.
Reverse: Most specimens show a large die lump inside 0 of 50 C, also lumps around 50 C and olive leaves. This late die state shows a crack from edge above M, tip of right wing, tip of olive stem, and down to rim below olive leaf. Right sides of I and T are in line.
Some diagnostics for 1817 O-105a R4-:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of dentil. On this early die state, there is a dot between the 1 and 7. Second 1 slants left. There is a triple dentil left of the date. (Obverse shared with O-103.)
Reverse: I centered under left side of T. (Reverse shared with O-104 and O-106.
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Note: There was a study made in 2004 which concluded there really are three 1817 O-105 die states:
Prime - No die cracks.
a-model - Only obverse cracks from rim through star 9, likely R6.
b-model - Late die state such as on this specimen, have all the pictured die cracks both obverse and reverse.
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In 2005, a serious Bust Half collector proposed five die states for this marriage:
Prime, or DS1 : No obverse or reverse crack (Same as above.)
a-model, or DS2 : Obverse crack from rim only to point of S9, and no reverse crack
b-model, or DS3 : Obverse crack at S9 progresses to Miss Liberty�s cap, and no lower-obverse-crack
c-model, or DS4 : Start of lower-obverse-crack
d-model, or DS5 : Lower-obverse-crack goes from rim at S11 to date (Same LDS as suggested by the 2004 study group.)
on the drapery clasp on the obverse and completely eliminated the head and neck of the eagle on the reverse. A true crusty bust half.
That is one very interesting 1817/3.
<< <i>RoratedRainbows,
That is one very interesting 1817/3.
Thanks, I picked it up from Sheridan Downey about 20 years ago. Nice companion piece for my prime 17/13.
Some diagnostics for 1817 O-108a R4:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. Dr Peterson describes the late die state cracks through stars 8 & 11 as “lightning bolts”. Tiny crack from star 3, up through all left stars, ending above cap. Vertical die lines above cap. (Obverse shared with O-107.)
Reverse: “O” in “OF” is recut, showing at outer right. “C” is recut, showing left of upright. “I” centered under left side of “T”. (Reverse shared with O-109.)
1817 O-107 ex MERKIN 6/15/74 -- I LOVE THE REVERSE DIE CRACKS & THE COOL EAGLES HEAD.
That is an interesting marriage, one that I have never been able to own. The poor strike characteristics on the eagle's head and neck remind me of the typical 1814 E/A. I do like the jagged die cracks better than the smoother ones, like the crack from rim, to C, to right wing.
Thanks for posting one of the few 1817 marriages we were missing.
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Here is another marriage not as yet shown in this CU series.
Some diagnostics for 1817 O-109 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. Star 13 is distant from curl, not pointing to curl in normal position.
Reverse: “O” in “OF” is recut, showing at outer right. “C” in “AMERICA” is recut, showing right of upright. “I” centered under left side of “T”. (Reverse shared with O-108.)
The 1817 O-105a is always flat struck on the obverse. In really late die states the chin and face virtually disappear.
When I got this coin I instantly noticed a huge die bulge as outlined in the 3rd photo. This to me really sheds light on the flat striking of the face. Why the face is this flat I do not know, but I am sure the bulge has a lot to do with it.
The highest recorded sale for the "a" die state is the PCGS AU58 that Sheridan Downey sold in 2002 for $5,200. It is my understanding it was flat struck on the obverse also.
On the close-ups you will see die clashing under the bust also and there are other clash marks here and there.
The attributing die break from rim across star 9 and across the head causes two planes. The upper plane is lower. Also there is a two plane element in the crack that goes above the 17 in 1817.
For those that like to grade coins by photos I am not saying what the grade is. But there is full luster on the reverse and 80% luster on the obverse. It was certified by PCGS.
Neat stuff.
<< <i>BiddlesBank, Neat stuff.
Mozin & Coin Addict
I have now completed my 1817 O-105a write up above with new photos showing the large bulge in front of MS Liberty's face. The bulge has essential raised the level of MS Liberty's chin and face to a higher plane. The bulge is outlined in photo #3 above.
This bulge is present on a lot of bust halves but this one struck me as being larger and more significant but I could be corrected on that if further study finds othewise.
Thank you for keeping the bust half threads going.
BB
This is added from another thread about the same 1817 O-105 above.
<< <I>we use the common term "die bulge" when what happened, I believe, was "die sinking" that resulted in a bulge on the coin, correct? Either way, it's pretty cool stuff and one of the really neat things about bust coinage!</I> >>
Hey Barndog
Good question. So I went to Taxay's chapter on the First Philadelphia Mint.
Quote: " Any hand-finishing more easily executed in relief was done on the hub, which was thereafter hardened and used to sink working dies. The remainder of the design was now added, the stars, numerals and letters by individual punches ...."
So I guess you sink a working die but strike a coin. This I can be corrected on if necessary.
In response to JRocco: <I>I believe Souders did a nice write up explaining the obverse die bulges on some CBH's if I am remembering correctly.</I>
I am not sure what Souders said as I still haven't decided to fork out $75 for the book but I suspect he mentions that the bulge is nothing more than the upper left eagles wing striking hard enough to bulge the coin on the corresponding obverse side which is outlined in photo #3 above.
I would add that since the outer rim of the obverse die was breaking up the driving force of the reverse die probably had more impact in the center and hence the larger than normal die bulge.
Given the above, for some dynamic reason that only a metallurgist can state, the metal probably did not flow sufficiently into the face and chin cavities, perhaps in part if not all, because the breaking up of the die.
My best shot so far.
BB <B>
</B>
I try to limit the R4 and below coins in my collection to only the grades of EF-45 to AU-55.
...so I went shopping for a "normal" O-105---expecting to pay a little outside of my comfort area---and found this coin instead. Not my favorite grade, not my favorite price, but what choice did I have? Have you ever seen a coin that you couldn't live without?
Last use of obverse die 3-s2. Used previously to strike the O-103a (the punctuated date die marriage in the die state with the dot removed).
In all there are three die states for this die marriage:
(1) No Obv or Rev die cracks
(2) Obverse die cracks only
(3) Obverse and Reverse die cracks (the O-105a)
Obverse die 3-s2 is starting to break up and is named 3-s3 in the striking of this coin. The die cracks are clearly seen in the scan.
Reverse die C is breaking up and is named C-s2 in the striking of this coin. Two of the three die cracks can be seen in the scan. The third die crack runs from the top of the D to inside the top center of the first S in STATES.
Ex. Jules Reiver Collection, NGC VG8
Prior to 1817 and after 1817 the obverse die was the "hammer die" in the screw press and the reverse die was the "anvil die."
During all or part of 1817 the reverse die became the "hammer die."
I know that there are many, many factors that can affect the weak strike in a coin. ...but I have often wondered how much of a factor the change in the dies' location in the screw press plays into the equation.
...just a thought.
I wonder...?
Regards,
Ed
First off---welcome to the boards.
Secondly--that is the nicest strike I have ever seen on an 1817/3...bar none.
Both coins are awesome, but I keep going back to that reverse strike.... wowzer...
Great coins and once again..welcome.
PS- your icon is located earlier in this thread and I am honored to see you using it as it is one of my favorite overdates.
FatMan: An awesome looking 1817 O-113 die marriage. I think I can see die cracks on the obverse. ...but I cannot tell if its an Intermediate Die State O-113 or a "full blown," die cracked, very scarce Late Die State O-113a, R4.
Keep photos of those Ladies coming.
Regards,
Ed
I hear what your saying about that beautiful over date. I may have less than 3 daughters if I had that coin in my bedroom also
Tennisman12, I am having a hard time making out the full clash with that pic on my monitor. If you have the coin handy try taking some pics at an extreme angle with the light at different angles to try to "capture" the clash in all its glory. Sorry I can't give a better opinion.
P.S. Ed- Once again thanks for the knowledge you bring to these boards about this series. I have been reading and enjoying your exchanges with Mozin and slumlord (two real smart CBH guys). I have not participated because I have much yet to learn and still little to add, but that tide will be changing as I am both listening AND learning from you guys
If I ever get the pleasure of meeting you guys at a show, dinner is on me.
Welcome to our Lettered Edge Capped Bust Half Dollar series. Gorgeous O-113, but then, aren't all of your coins especially pretty?
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Tennisman12m,
I welcomed you on your first post, but now that you say you are a friend of edmerlr, I may need to rethink that a bit.
Your first 1817/3 certainly has a nice solid strike.
My eyes are not good enough to see what is going on with your headless eagle. I checked all my specimens, and none have anywhere near a weak eagle's head, nor any of the lines in the left wing you mentioned. What I notice is that the very weak areas appear to be opposite each other, which doesn't make sense to me. Maybe one of the earlier owners of this specimen liked to rub it between his thumb and forefinger.
In fact this one is very very close to the same die state as the coin Mozin posted above.
Notice the nice obverse clash like Mozin's
Nice looking Bustie.
Nice O-105a! A beauty!
and ...
Mozin,
I'm curious on the grade that you place on your O-105a at the beginning of this thread.
Edgar
Edgar
Edgar
<< <i>
Mozin,
I'm curious on the grade that you place on your O-105a at the beginning of this thread.
Edgar >>
NGC gave it AU58, which I think is correct.
Some diagnostics for 1817 O-110a R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower edge of dentil. Star 13 points to a triple dentil. On this late die state, a crack goes from top of cap, through all right stars, bottom of curls, and to bust.
Reverse: There is a die line extending left from the bottom edge of the upper arrow feathers, directly above the claw. This late die state has a fine crack through ERICA, arrowheads, 50 C, and to edge. I centered under T.
Some diagnostics for 1817 O-111a R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. There is a heavy diagonal die line running down into the field from ribbon end. Star 7 points to center of dentil, and to bridge of nose. Star 7 normally points to the curls. Sharp centering dot shows on neck.
Reverse: Dr. Glenn Peterson calls several die lines behind eagle’s head “bees buzzing”. 50 C is low, with a wide spacing between 50 and C. Sharp centering dot between crossbars 3 & 4 at left. On this LDS, a crack shows from top of CA, across arrowheads and leaves, ending at top of U. Right side of I is under left side of T.
Can you enlighten me about about the process you mention above to perhaps remove the stain? Oil? What kind? How applied? How long? etc. I haven't heard of this process before. Thanks! Oh yeah, nice coin!
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198