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1817 is the twentieth informative picture thread covering the Capped Bust Half series. Show your Bus

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  • zap1111zap1111 Posts: 1,298 ✭✭
    JR

    Thanks for the link to your thread on using oil. This is something I'm going to try with a few!
    zap1111
    102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
    BHNC #198
  • 1817 O-110 and the "a" model.

    Both R-2's, have you ever thought why these last few marriages that are being added
    are supposed to be common coins?

    Continued use of the second Master Die, created the small "8" variety,
    without the scalloped thirteen star that's found on the previous run of this series.
    This is the only use of this die pair. (Non-linked in Leaman & Gunnet.)

    Obverse Die 7.
    At a quick glance of the date you see the odd placement of the numbers,
    The 8 is centered between the two 1's, the second tilted to the left and a high flying 7.

    image

    Stars 3, 4 and 5 closer than the rest.

    imageimage

    A tripled segment under the non-scalloped thirteenth star, a die defect lump under the 7.
    This to me looks like a rust pit. The die surface sat exposed to humidity, surface rusted,
    when it came time to use it had gone into the surface as a depression.

    Reverse Die G.

    image

    T to I alingnment I centered under T. (always important)

    image

    Graver slip in the feather of the upper arrow shaft.

    image

    Bulge in the second "S".

    image

    "D" in United noticeably higher than "E".

    image

    A Dot filled in a horizontal of the shield.

    image

    So after you have ID'd this marriage, so which state is it?

    The "a" model, the second state.

    Obverse die cracks running from the hair, below Liberty to the back of the Cap, to Star 8 and down along the inside of the stars to just above Star 13, then into the curl.

    imageimage

    On the reverse, from "ERICA", across the tips of the arrows to 50 C.
    Also to note here; the lower serifs of a U.S.A. are thinned down from lapping.

    Always fun to add to a LECBHD thread !!! image
  • Thank you so much, Mike, for your presentation of the 1817 O-110 die states.

    As usual you get another gold star from me.

    *****Let's hear from more people out there in the Wonderful World of Busties !!! More postings from all of you, pretty please.*****

    ...talk to you later, someguyfrommichigan.

    Regards,

    Ed R.
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey SomeGuyFromMichigan,
    Great write-up and description of your 1817 O-110 a model.
    Thank you for the effort you put into this (like others here alsoimage )

    I have a question for you. When you call this the a model the second state, are you using the standard 3 states EDS, MDS and LDS...this being the MDS, or are you including the extra classifications of VEDS, and VLDS also?
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • Hey Someguy, great photo's, what are you using to get these clear, detailed, closeup shots? Edmerlr and I would like to know. thanks
  • Hey Tennisman12...

    ...don't ask SomeGuyfromMichigan too many intelligent questions regarding photography.

    Some of us photographically challenged blond seniors wouldn't understand the answers if we heard them.
  • Thanks Ed
    Did you check out my new Avitar?
    Does it look familar?
    How do I start sticking the "Gold Stars" on?
    Mike


    image
  • Can anyone add an image of an early 110 before the three dentils become conjoined?
  • Thanks again JRocco !

    No,
    The second state of O-110 is O-110a.
    The LDS of this would be the later progression of the die cracks shown.
    Up until a die change or total collapse of the die itself.
    Mike
  • Hi Tennisman12

    It's the picture itself.
    You asked "...what are you using to get these clear, detailed, closeup shots?"
    The pictures I use are very large, around 5MBs.
    I take and break them down to the areas I'm working.
    Cropping them down, then resizing them.
    My photo software is called Photo Plus!
    I've used it so much, that all the attachments are second nature.
    But it has taken a couple of years to get there.
    A note I would make here is,
    that my large coin size picture are resized down to 700 x 700 pixels and the close ups are at 500 x 500.
    You can keep the clarity, plus it allows you to upload and open the pictures faster.
    Thanks
    Mike
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for the clarification Mike.
    I thought you were further breaking down the a state into early, mid and late....now that would drive me to drink......
    Great pics by the way.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • edmerlredmerlr Posts: 563
    Here is another missing die STATE: the 1817 O-113a, R4.

    This die state is noted for the large number of die cracks in the die. Four obverse die cracks are listed in the Overton/Parsley book. My coin has a fifth obverse die crack not listed in the book.

    Only 2 of the die cracks show up in the coin's photos. Most of the die cracks are hairline cracks that cannot be photographed or scanned. I am using (obnoxious) little colored arrows to show you the location of the die cracks.

    (1) The largest and most obvious die crack runs from edge at star 12, through star 13, across lower edge of curl, top of 18 and to edge. [red arrows]

    (2) Another fine curving die crack from the inner points of star 7 across cap to inner points of stars 8 and 9, then curving down into the field below. [yellow arrows]

    (3) The third die crack runs from milling above top of cap and branches into the second die crack. [blue arrows]

    (4) The fourth die crack runs from edge across upper points of star 12 into the second die crack. [green arrows]

    (5) The fifth die crack runs from the edge across the upper points of star 8 into the second die crack. [white arrows]

    The reverse of this die state has one die crack running through UNITED STA.

    Photos of my 1817 O-113a, R4:

    image
    image
  • edmerlredmerlr Posts: 563
    Here's another example of the 1817 O-113, R2 with its weakly struck obverse:

    image
    image
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    imageimage


    Some diagnostics for 1817 O-111 R1:


    imageimageimage


    Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. There is a heavy diagonal die line running down into the field from ribbon end. Star 7 points to center of dentil, and to bridge of nose. Star 7 normally points to the curls. Sharp centering dot shows on neck.


    imageimage


    Reverse: Dr. Peterson calls several die lines behind eagle’s head “bees buzzing”. The most notable bee is at the end of the scratch on this coin. 50 C is low, with a wide spacing between 50 and C. Sharp centering dot between crossbars 3 & 4 at left. Right side of I is under left side of T.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • Another Mozin Crusty !
    You and Ed have all the good ones!
    You and Ed have more Great coins than anyone else on these threads TOO!
    Be kind to us, it's not because we don't add additional postings, we're limited.
    You two have made such GREAT use of your collections and are the back bone of these GREAT LECBHD threads.
    Thanks again guys...

    image...image
    One for each of you.
    Mike
  • SomeGuyFromMichigan aka Mike C.:

    Thank you for your kind words about Mozin's and my collections.

    *********************

    As the 2007 Holiday Season approaches, I am getting closer and closer to my goal of thinning out my Bustie collection.

    Therefore, I wanted to take the lazy way out and show my 1817 obverses in their Dansco Album pages. (I have 15 more years of Busties in their Dansco pages to show. I will do this in the future as time and energy permits. Unless requested, my 1807 O-111a will never be shown - it is by far, my most unattractive, butt ugly coin.)

    Here are the 1817's: (Yep! No darn 1817 O-102 or O-104 die marriages in MY collection. Bummer!)

    image
    image
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    Here is another of my favorite Capped Bust Half Dollar varieties, an early die state version, without the reverse die cracks. This specimen still shows some clashing on both obverse and reverse. There exists an earlier DS than this one.



    image
    image


    Some diagnostics for 1817/3 O-101 R3:


    imageimage


    Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. There are often a series of die lumps, most often seen back and behind cap, and below star 13.


    image


    Reverse: Most specimens show a large die lump inside “0” of “50 C”, also lumps around “50 C” and olive leaves. Right sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • Interesting Mozin...
    Yours clearly shows multiple die clash, so there could be two die states before this one.
    No clash and single clash...where are they, and do they exist ???

    image...Mike
  • Boy, it's sure been a long time since anyone has posted to this thread !...hehe

    Ok, here's the Big Dog, although there are other's that outweigh this one in rarity!

    The Eliasberg O-102a
    just to get it out of the way, not my coin...
    Good pics thou.
    Die cracks...spanning the entire obverse from edge above upper peak of cap and running downward across cap, lobe of ear lower curl and just right of 7 to edge.
    Reverse, the "I"'s have their lower right serifs missing and look like J's.
    Everyone could own half of this coin by owning the O-103, the shared reverse.

    image
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    Gee Mike, I did not know you were wealthy enough to own a R7 Bustie.image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • just to get it out of the way, not my coin...
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    I know, I saw your disclaimer early on.image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • Scratch another Tom !...image

    1817 O-112 R-2

    At the date 7 higher than 181.
    Stars close to segments.
    Several fine verticle lines in front of throat and jaw line.

    Obverse 9

    image

    Reverse I

    image

    An out of line mess of letters, "RI" of America joined, I higher than R.
    C lower and under A.

    image

    T ot I alignmentt, I under the left of base of "T".
    First T and E lower than A and T in States.

    image

    Mike


  • << <i>.
    The 1817 O-105a is always flat struck on the obverse. In really late die states the chin and face virtually disappear.

    When I got this coin I instantly noticed a huge die bulge as outlined in the 3rd photo. This to me really sheds light on the flat striking of the face. Why the face is this flat I do not know, but I am sure the bulge has a lot to do with it.

    The highest recorded sale for the "a" die state is the PCGS AU58 that Sheridan Downey sold in 2002 for $5,200. It is my understanding it was flat struck on the obverse also.

    On the close-ups you will see die clashing under the bust also and there are other clash marks here and there.

    The attributing die break from rim across star 9 and across the head causes two planes. The upper plane is lower. Also there is a two plane element in the crack that goes above the 17 in 1817.

    For those that like to grade coins by photos I am not saying what the grade is. But there is full luster on the reverse and 80% luster on the obverse. It was certified by PCGS.

    image
    image
    image
    image >>

  • Rust ...Nice die state!
    An excellent example to my post in the 1827 thread.
    So you think you know how to grade, high grade Bust coinage???
    Re:"...For those that like to grade coins by photos I am not saying what the grade is.
    But there is full luster on the reverse and 80% luster on the obverse.
    It was certified by PCGS."

    The Obverse, the lighter grey patches of wear (incomplete strike) are reminiscent of the Type 1 Busties of 1807-08.
    80% Luster gives us a good clue as to the actual grade, XF/AU.
    Now using a guide like Photograde, one might assume somewhere around a F/VF.
    But now, looking at the Reverse, with 100% Luster.
    Makes you think again and I would say a strong AU grade is appropriate.
    So maybe the TPG made a guess of XF45.
    Only my opinion.
    Still a very nice coin, thanks for the posting Rust !
    Mike
  • 23Pairer23Pairer Posts: 911 ✭✭✭
    Courtesy of Ed R. and Space Monkey

    image
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    This is the 1817 O-105', meaning with no cracks on obverse or reverse. The marriage is R4-, but this DS is "currently" thought to be R7.



    image
    image
    image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭✭
    Mozin,

    That's a great piece and very deserving of R7 in the prime DS. I've never seen an example offered at any coin shows, auctions, BST, etc.

    Which is unfortunate because I'd love to own one! image



    Here's my O.103, R2 "Punctuated Date"

    image
    image
    Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist based in SoCal.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    image
    image
    image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't have any new varieties to share. image

    ----------

    For 1817 Chief Engraver Scot produced a new MD and struck new WH from which WD were made. Relief was somewhat lowered and central hair details were modified...thinner and more detailed, as were the folds in the cap.

    Liberty got a nose job, smaller and more attractive, and the relief of her cheek and jaw was improved.

    And yet not enough WD's were produced so the Mint had to rely on earlier ones, using an 1814 first (the ultra-rare 1817/4 variety), the obverse of which quickly broke after a handful of struck coins.

    The old 1813 die lasted longer, striking tens of thousands.

    ---------

    The first example below is another punctuated date, O.103. Just back from PCGS as AU55. There's a fun story to this one I'll share another time.

    The second example is an O.107 R3, AU55. I like this better in hand than in pictures. It has terrific luster and just a hint of toning at the periphery. An EDS obverse is paired with a shattered reverse, giving it a little character.

    The third is another overdate O.101a. The presence of the reverse die crack, from M in AMERICA through the denomination and up along UNITED, is what distinguishes this later die state. This is a modest VF30 I'd like to upgrade some day.
    Lance.

    imageimage
    imageimage
    imageimage
  • BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭✭
    Here's a neat one. 1817 O.105a consistently produced some of the most poorly-struck halves for the date. Rarely do circulated examples exhibit a distinct chin, or at least one that is struck up to intended level.

    imageimage
    Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist based in SoCal.
  • who is going to post a picture of a 1817/4?
  • BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>who is going to post a picture of a 1817/4? >>



    Here is one... of course, it's not mine image



    image
    Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist based in SoCal.
  • You may call me Dave
    BHNC member # 184!

    http://www.busthalfaddict.com
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I haven't even attributed it it yet but got from that Dave guy.
    imageimage
    PCGS XF40
  • OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 5,546 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>image
    image

    Some diagnostics for 1817 O-105a R4-:

    imageimage
    image

    Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of dentil. On this early die state, there is a dot between the 1 and 7. Second 1 slants left. There is a triple dentil left of the date. (Obverse shared with O-103.)

    imageimage

    Reverse: I centered under left side of T. (Reverse shared with O-104 and O-106.

    ------------------------

    Note: There was a study made in 2004 which concluded there really are three 1817 O-105 die states:

    Prime - No die cracks.

    a-model - Only obverse cracks from rim through star 9, likely R6.

    b-model - Late die state such as on this specimen, have all the pictured die cracks both obverse and reverse.

    -------------------------

    In 2005, a serious Bust Half collector proposed five die states for this marriage:

    Prime, or DS1 : No obverse or reverse crack (Same as above.)

    a-model, or DS2 : Obverse crack from rim only to point of S9, and no reverse crack

    b-model, or DS3 : Obverse crack at S9 progresses to Miss Liberty�s cap, and no lower-obverse-crack

    c-model, or DS4 : Start of lower-obverse-crack

    d-model, or DS5 : Lower-obverse-crack goes from rim at S11 to date (Same LDS as suggested by the 2004 study group.) >>



    We've seen the 105 prime and the Overton "a" model...here is the 105. (DS-3 above)

    image
    image
    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
  • You may call me Dave
    BHNC member # 184!

    http://www.busthalfaddict.com
  • You may call me Dave
    BHNC member # 184!

    http://www.busthalfaddict.com
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Another O.105a.
    Lance.

    imageimage
  • You may call me Dave
    BHNC member # 184!

    http://www.busthalfaddict.com
  • One last one....

    1817/3 O-101a

    image
    image
    You may call me Dave
    BHNC member # 184!

    http://www.busthalfaddict.com
  • BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭✭
    Here's my 1817/3. Not the most "original" coin but the color sold me. Still, I'd prefer a VF/XF with a thick, brown patina (like maibock's coin above - great coin, by the way!), but those are hard to come by...

    So this will suffice for now image It's PCGS VF30 in an OGH

    image
    image
    Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist based in SoCal.
  • BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭✭
    My 1817 O.106a "Single Leaf" has been lightly cleaned, but the TPG was gracious enough to holder it as VF25 image

    image
    image
    Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist based in SoCal.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    I love the CBH Single Leaves, and you have a very nice one.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I love the CBH Single Leaves, and you have a very nice one. >>



    Thanks, mozin! Yours is also very nice image

    Single Leaves are some of my favorites, too. It's the shame the 1812 is so stinking rare or else I'd have a complete "single leaf set" image
    Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist based in SoCal.


  • << <i>

    << <i>I love the CBH Single Leaves, and you have a very nice one. >>



    Thanks, mozin! Yours is also very nice image

    Single Leaves are some of my favorites, too. It's the shame the 1812 is so stinking rare or else I'd have a complete "single leaf set" image >>



    You have the 1813 O-109a? (that some say does not really exist, though there are rumors that it does?) imageimageimage
    You may call me Dave
    BHNC member # 184!

    http://www.busthalfaddict.com
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    Take a look. Tell us what you see.



    image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I love the CBH Single Leaves, and you have a very nice one. >>



    Thanks, mozin! Yours is also very nice image

    Single Leaves are some of my favorites, too. It's the shame the 1812 is so stinking rare or else I'd have a complete "single leaf set" image >>



    You have the 1813 O-109a? (that some say does not really exist, though there are rumors that it does?) imageimageimage >>



    Ah yes, the O.109a - I could never forget that one image I must confess, I do not have one. I did, but it was very low grade. I sold it and am now holding out for a nicer one.

    And whoever tells you it doesn't exist needs to do more research. PCGS actually recognizes this variety now, and as a "Single Leaf", too. Take a look.

    If PCGS recognizes it, it has to be legit, right? image
    Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist based in SoCal.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    The 1813 Single Leaf Brian points to is in the Merrill Registry Set as 1813 O-109a.


    U.S. Coins - Half Dollars Bust Half Dollars by Overton All Varieties and Die States, Circulation Strikes (1794-1836) Merrill Collection Merrill All Overton
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.

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