Here's the 1827 O-142. Star 7 points to the Upper Edge of curl and the bottom of the 8 numeral is thinner than the top. Reverse shows the I centered under right side of the T. The area around the olive leaves is raised higher in the field, in places, and looks unfinished.
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. Star 2 points to lower half of dentil. Stars are large, and close to milling. (Obverse shared with O-119.)
Reverse: First line of stripe 4 extends well below shield. (This is not mentioned in the books.) “A” appears to touch upper arrowhead. Left sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
There are more marriages with this one obverse die in 1827 than any other. But that certainly doesn't mean more coins were struck, but probably just the opposite. With 100,00 to 300,000 coins per estimated die life expectancy, one could say possibly three quarters may be the correct summary in this case. This can be seen in it's condition in it's final use in O-148. With the milling still intact, recutting still showing in the stars. Where most others would be drawn out, cracked and eroded to discard and replacement.
The combination of the common to the very RARE is also found with this obverse. O/P's and L/G's sequences just happen to be in the same order.
Obv. 21
With the diagnostics from O/P, nearly all the stars showing recutting with small extra points. There are fine die lines around the stars that become obscured as erosion continues.
A die line, an extention of the curl between "L" and "I" in Liberty that joins the Headband to the curl.
Certain smaller Fingerprints exsist also, the small spike above the "T" and inside die nick in "R" look to be identifiers for the "Liberty" die punch and is seen in other 1827 obverses.
A fine series of scratches within the curl.
First use in combination with Rev.X (second useage), this created O-131 R.2. (21 / X-s2)
The T to I alignment is Right side of T, left side of I. (not the O/P I centered under right side of T).
Unfinished die areas (raised looking), under the left wing and around the olive branches.
A fine die crack under the right wing.
The "0" in 50 C. leans to the right.
Arrowheads one and two connected at the shaft.
Second use in combination with Rev.Y, this created O-132 R.3. (21-s2 / Y)
The T to I alignment is the right side are inline.
"U" and "N" in United connect at the top.
Rust spots around the 50 C. area, along with other spots on the reverse.
The "C" in 50 C. recut in the upper right.
Filling in the lower part of the last stripe, engraver slips extend past the shield.
Additional die cracks emerge from the "C" & "A" in America and above the 50 C.
Third use in combination with Rev. Z, this created O-133 R.4. (21-s3 / Z)
The T to I alignment is the right side are inline
This is an easy remember with the die scratch above the right claw, but also the left wing.
Three small abraided lines at the top of the left wing, at first glance one would assume die clash.
But this isn't the case here as seen in the obv. / rev. overlay.
The last and fourth use in combination with Rev. AG, this created O-148 R.6+.
13 known and Very Rare! One For The Fortunate Lucky Few...
This baby has a cleaned and retoned reverse. Looks VF - XF to me, which of the 13 is it?
This is the second use of Rev. AG, first used in O-143. (21-s4 / AG-s2)
The T to I alignment is the right side left side are inline.
"E" and "D" of United touch, looks like a small chip on the lower "E"
The simple Dotted beak variety, plus "M"& "E" close right serif of "M" higher.
The simple Id'ing list is getting shorter for these die marriages anyone want to put together the list?
As in 5 words or less per die, just going from the reverses, then the obverses would fall into play.
Hey Mozin, what do we have left for 1827?
Can we make it to page 8? In the threads for this year?
With the backing from you and edmerlr, it's worth it. Why question when you can know! We're making quick work of this thread, with the largest DM count too.
Here's a nice 1827, O-120 (the "a" model), R4. Tougher to locate than most believe. Obverse: Die defect lines along dentilation left of date. Reverse: Right side of T and I inline. The a model has the crack at the top of UNITED STATES.
Edgar
P.S. SomeGuyFromMichigan and Mozin, Just wanted to say that your imaging is nothing short of fantastic! Nice work!
1827, O-141, R3. Obverse: The 2 in the date is lower at the top and Star 1 is Centered and Star 13 is 1/4 mm from the back curl. Reverse: I centered below left side of T with a die line crossing the C in the denomination.
Thanks for the compliment on my coin scans. You certainly have some nicely toned Busties.
At one time, I owned four 1827 O-120a specimens in XF45 and AU grades. I have never managed to buy even one 1827 O-120 prime. The prime seems to be very elusive.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. Date has small thick figures, and “2” has a thick base with high serif. Multiple diagonal lines show in field above cap. (Obverse shared with O-139.)
Reverse: Many vertical die lines show between eagle’s head and left wing. “50 C” is low, with smallest “C” of all 1827s. Stripes of shield are mostly solid. Left sides of “I” and “T” are in line. (Reverse shared with O-122.)
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
They always say a Picture is Worth a 1000 Words ! To show all the the details as you know, one has to look for the common characterists. Present it in an appealing format that everyone can use, but the older you get the bigger the picture. Ha,ha,ha .....
I also take Pride in my ability to edit these Great (Busties) coin pictures! And share a common love for these beauties!
Mozin, Another harder to find marriage, well done, one of my Favorite Obverses (24) in 1827. I sold Ed my O-139 Gem AU58, with full milling on both sides, one tough die state ! It would probably be an R-7 if it was considered...
Have you ever noticed and then questioned yourself about little things you see?
Then remembering a similar appearance somewhere else. Then putting it into a thought process of why it may have of occured.
So this gives us a little of what was the routine with the diesinker and die production of the Early U.S. Mint.
For example these three abraiding lines on the Eagles wing. (1827 O-133 Rev. Z.)
These lines are actually raised on the die, but show as cut-like marks in the coins. I suggest that they are from the finishing of the die process. You may ask yourself why these lines are sunken and how that came to be.
One has to remember the die is an opposite surface as in a coin's, so everything raised on a coin is sunken in the die. The die is a flat surface with all the detail sunken into it, so when touch-up and lapping are required, it is done to a flat surface. The ( lapping ) was done with a file & stone, the first harder, then finish with a stone which is softer than die steel. The early files are not like the modern mass produced of today, they were hand cut and coarse alot like a rasp. Burrs form grooves and ridges into the stones surface. If the finish lapping is done in a straight motion the result is what is seen in the pictures. Parallel lines, some raised and sunken. If the lapping is done in a circular motion, well we have seen its results in other dies observed.
Then matching the effect in another year, say 1809. (1809 O-107 Rev. F)
Picture of (1809 O-107 Rev. F) showing both types.
You certainly know a lot about CBHs. Thankfully, you also know how to write and illustrate very well.
Those raised marks on the die no doubt caused many potential CBH buyers to pass on the purchase, thinking the coin had scratches not mint caused. I know I have been fooled many times over the years.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Here is a die state that I don't think has been posted yet. It's a O 126 and this one is one of Fevers brown chewy kind, best enjoyed with a glass of milk!
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 2. This die was used immediately prior to strike the 1827 O-104.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse die Z. This die was used earlier to strike the 1827 O-133.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) Mouth is distinctly open. (2) Die lines from milling opposite and below end of bust are visible on most specimens. (3) On the reverse about half of the stripe lines extend to the second crossbar. (4) There is a vertical line in the feathers to the right of the lower crossbars in the shield. This line is very fine and visible only in higher grade specimens. (5) On Early Die State examples of this die marriage the is a diagonal line in the field just outside the eagle's breast feathers above the right claw.
(I CANNOT GET A CLEAR PICTURE OF MOST OF THESE DIAGNOSTICS. IF SOMEONE CAN GET BETTER PHOTOS, PLEASE POST THEM.)
I just reviewed this thread and have to say that Mozin's 1827/6, O-102 and Okbustchasher's O-101 completely knocked my socks off! Simply stunning coins. And, of course, edmerlr's posts too! And, just for the record, I quickly overlayed Mozin's post of the three stages of the 1827 over 6 earlier in this thread. Dead match on all three. Note that the suspect 2's pointing direction is on the most heavily lapped die. Note the break in the curl just above the 7 and how it is now narrower and open to the field. Same thing with the 2, much narrower now in this final die state image, but a dead match nontheless.
These are great threads, as you can tell by their longevity.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I was asked to move this thread over to the 1827 LECBHD thread, to keep it within the group.
So here it is.
Thanks DenverDave for posting a lovely coin!
That's a very Original looking Beauty !
I love the Peac_ck (A colorful irridesent bird) toned Busties...& especially PCGS AU's.
CU Board Censors hit this one...You have a forbidden word in your message post.
But yours may be of a different interest to many LECBHD collectors.
Not too many marriages of 1827 with this much die clash.
It is an interesting note that die clash has a major part in nearly every die marriage in one form or another, as seen throughout the series.
When one looks at the alignment, reversed and flipped to the opposing die, to see what caused the corresponding marks on the Obverse or Reverse of a given coin. The eventual collaspe and discard of the die or dies as a result of the severaty of a die clash or (s) had been or the failure of a die at the juncture of the opposite feature.. One can actually see where formations of die cracks and where excessive lapping could develope just from the corresponding location of the opposing die and in the alignment of Letters, stars and the other features invovled. Such as why some stars strike-up while others are flat.
So Dave I have used YOUR Bust Half for this, since it was your thread and coin.
***This post is dedicated to my Buddy, Ed (edmerlr) on these boards! A #1 Bust Half Nut if there ever is one! Get Well Soon!!!!
Looking at die clash, you the collector need two different models, obverse and reverse. To get a good view the apposing forces.
Going through the O/P book, marriage after marriage the die damage done by die clash is related in die use (as in Obv. 1s2) and die state (as in a or b model). And it can also be recognized in the terminology of EDS, IDS & LDS.
So to the Obverse. In the first picture, this is the Obverse with the correct adjusted reverse orientation.
The first close-up picture shows us many of the areas that are susceptible to die cracking. Above and below the date, inner points of the left stars. Also the ragged die scrapes at the front and below left of the bust, but only after an attempt to remove them by lapping. Also note the area of the wing in the left field, this is a continued area of whorl, as in metal flow on obverses throughout the series. This is also where the die crack formation of the "Bearded Godess" began, 1807 O-111a, although a different Master Hub style (Low Relief), resulting in the same manner.
Then the next picture shows the stage of the popular shield lines under the ear, but one may not identify the "open mouth" with this type of problem. (Excessive lapping).
Next one. Die cracking continuing around the right stars. The observation of extra star points, some could be proven to die clash & lapping. (Look closely) And just about any marks above the Cap. As in the "COMET" variety.
Tha last obverse picture. Shows the final continuation of any die crack of the stars. Note the location of the highest wing area, where this weakness develops in the hair. Then the nortorious scroll above the date, more so in the early dates. Or why are some clasps full, while others weak? They correspond with the Eagles brow.
Now for the Reverse.
Procedure at the Mint didn't have anything to do with Rocket Science, trial and error was the name of the game back then. When you analyze the reverse mock-up, things start to ring true on the possiblity of how & why things happened to these dies.
The bridge of the nose in the 1827 O-129 under eagle's wing. Various star to leaf items contributing to cracks and even drawing of the leaf ends.
This is probably the most common die clash that you will find in the series. From the top of the Eagles wing to the scroll, this is just Lady Liberty's chest. And the reason behind the weakness in "U R I" of the Motto.
The shoulder area, the die clashed area under the right scroll ob O-129, the very busy Stat "ES OF" area where different things happen for 1827's reverses. Reasons for the easy formation of die cracks at the base of America.
Die crack under the right wing, then this general weakness of many marriages at 50 C.
So what some may think of as damage or possibly outside the Mint produced, may just be the result of common striking problems and die clash of a different time.
Thanks Edgar Coming from you means alot. I just try to accurately describe what I see. Then present it in a form that clearly shows my message. I do have to say, that the combination in the toning on Denver Dave's half made this overlay come out so well.
Now Edgar, here's one for you....[/]
So you think you know how to grade, high grade Bust coinage??? Huh, Huh, Huh... Do Ya???
(I have put you on a golden pedestal. Don't make me have to remove the pedestal.)
Regards (from your Buddy),
Ed Richter (aka edmerlr)
PS: What would you charge to send me a PM including the attribution of every darn 1827 that appears on eBay? Can you imagine how much time this would save me. Hey! Maybe this is a business we could start. You do the attibutions. I send out the e-mails. What do we charge for an annual subscription? Would we have any takers?
This is not one of my favorite 1827 Busties in my collection because it has been wiped.
At the same time---I'll share with you, if you are interested---this was one of the hardest 1827 die STATES for me to find.
This was the second to the last die state I needed to complete my 1827 DS collection (I will never own the O-148 & 149). This was the first (affordable) O-112a that I found and the last (affordable) one that I have seen available. BUT IT'S ONLY A R4 !!! What gives?
The O-112a is identical to the O-112 except for two die cracks near the date. The first die runs from edge below date between 82 into the bust. The second runs from the edge between 7 and star 13 up into the curls. (Red Arrows in my photo.)
In Very Late Die States of the O-112a there is an additional die crack from above the cap to between the R and T in the headband going into the curls. My coin has only the very beginning of this die crack. (Green Arrows in my photo.)
Photos of my 1827 O-112a, R4: (ex Schertz, Prouty collections)
OK, SomeGuyFromMichigan where's your post! (tapping my fingers).
Actually, edmerlr told me you crashed your hard drive (a "likely" story) or was it your house lost power (probably ANOTHER likely story).
Meanwhile while we wait (and wait . . . and wait), here's another piece for comparison.
Edgar
1827/6, O-102, R1
Obverse: Curve of the underlying 6 just to the right of the 7. Rev: Small crack to just to the right of the last A in AMERICA - from dentil to a and to crossbar of A. Strong on Early Die States (EDS) and "blobish" but still visible on (Late Die States (LDS).
That's OK Edgar, Your nervous inhibitions can keep tapping... Yes, We did have a major Meltdown at our house. I'm sorry for the delay on posting this addtion to the 1827 thread. Mike
So you think you know how to grade, high grade Bust coinage??? Huh, Huh, Huh... Do Ya???
Maybe we can use this as a fun and a new approach to some Bust half topics..."The Challenge". This wasn't directed at Edgar (Fever) Souders, it was to draw attention to this topic!
I guess we think we know the process it takes to create a coin. (Back then) But at the Early Mint there were constant problems. Little as they may have been, there were the constant adjustments and tightening of equipment. The hand production and maintenance of the dies. But this was the modern technology of the time.
From the drawing of the strip stock, planchet cutting (punching), upsetting and lettering of the edge and to the striking of the coin itself.
Things happen at each stage that affected how the Mint's finished product came out.
Ok, so you've read this far and think what does this have to do with coin grading?
I say alot ! The overlooked! The misunderstood! The misinterpreted!
(This line is in invisible text and is only a sublimnial message) The modern brainwashing of coin grading as set to standards for the uninformed.
Buy an (authenticated) coin in a slab, it has a grade assigned, pay me X amount of $$$. But this brings me back to an old editorial "The Other Side of the Coin", I can't remember who wrote it. But it had a catchy title which I remember here.
I feel the the Early U.S. Coinage needs a revival in the understanding of how the fledgling Mint's products were produced. And why, at each stage it had a different direct effect to the planchet. Then an explanation of what is overlooked in obtaining a grade.
Ok, we know that the strip stock was mechanically drawn through dies. (Historical record) Not the same as today, but without all the modern apparatuses used to obtain stock.
But what you don't see is the silver particles realigning themselves in this process. Let us say, they are now running in the same direction >>>>.
This stock is now punched into the proper size planchets, probably dropping into some sort of containment vessel. This changes the particle movement, and creates a downward movement at the edge VVVV.
Next, is a trip through the Castaing machine, where the edge is upset to allow for proper borders and lettering the edge at the same time. Adding an interesting twist by forcing the particles back into the planchet and outward to the surface at the edges face <<<<^^^^VVVV. Together, leaving a dulled silver surface with a myriad of scattered marks.
I couldn't find an early planchet picture, this 20th century one, does show what I'm saying.
The finished planchets are now brought to a coining press. A handcranked screw style press to be exact with an open collar. Loaded into a tube to be dropped singularly onto the dies. So now we are ready to see this planchet struck.
The press operater gives a pull, the top die comes down and Ta Da!!!! We have a freshly minted coin.
But what happened to our planchet at this stage??? Have you heard of the expression "...hot off the press!"? This is referring to the metal of the coin being forced to fill the recesses of the space between the two dies. At that moment this metal flow creates heat, it is this movement combined with the heat that once again changes the little particles of silver (now radiating outward) and in a way that crystalizes the new coins surface in the form of Luster.
So we now have a flashy cartwheel lustered new half dollar... or the way the Reflected light dances across the coins surface.
Ok, we have gone through the minting process, now to understand what was said vs. what you are seeing when you grade a Bust Half Dollar.
Think of a coin's surface as you would look at a topographical map, the smallest loops start at the highest points. So of course that is where you would look for the first signs of wear.
First of all, an area of a coin that is most overlooked is the field. Technically, it comprises more surface area than the features. Luster loss, hairlines are clues to what may have been done to your half.
Many of you have heard major dealers and collectors complain about the patches of so called wear on the cheek on some AU / Mint State graded slabbed coins and they wouldn't buy them because of the wear on these high points.
But are they as informed as they think they are??? Naddah ! Why?
Because they don't understand this process and what they are looking at.
Here we have a product created entirely by hand! Each example should be considered on it's own merits and not as a generic type! (I think the EAC does this, you do see Net EAC grades.)
They probably deal more in machine made! (There are the exceptions to this!)
So back to(This line is in invisible text and is only a sublimnial message) "...the modern brainwashing of coin grading" theory.
Ok, now finally the grading process. Many may think, a full strike has alot to do with the grade, but really it's just the ultimate to have. Full strikes do not come in every date or marriage and it is probably the exception.
Mint State: The uncirculated state of a coin, never in circulation. Comes in varying degrees of Mint State, 60 to 70, a numerical grade. No rub, various bagmarks. Perfect does not exsist in LECBHD series. Most years are only 96 percent fully struck, but some are more and some less. Since this may run on an average, given a particular year or marriage, what is left is the incompleted surface. This is the surface of the raw planchet, with no metal flow to move the small silver particles outward, with the Myriad of fine lines, not rub!
This resulting effect is the same as seen on the coins deemed non Mint State or overgraded. You could be looking at one beautifully toned lusterous half with an area of dull grey silver on the cheek or breast. (Rub is rub, the more you look at coins the more you see!) But not here.
It is here where the close observation of the fields comes into play too. When the metal doesn't move there is no crystalized surface to reflect the light ! This is seen throught the series, with most shunning them as lesser examples.
AU, Almost Uncirculated: The circulated state of a coin, taken in from circulation. Comes in varying degrees of AU, 50 to 58, a numerical grade. Over the years individuals (collectors and dealers alike). Having damaged the surfaces of the individual coins, dipping, polishing (remember when "... shiney is better"), from sliding them in and out of folders. Resulting in an altered state of hairlined, dulled, polished and now over marked surfaces. Many of these coins are downgraded to a net grade. So this also has to be taken into consideration.
Pictures, First to last. AU 58 Just a touch of rub on the highest points of the design. AU 55 Areas of wear forming on the bust , cheek and high points of the hair. AU 53 These same areas as in AU55 are now patches. AU50 Loss of detail, the patches of wear now eliminate the fine lines of drapery and hair at the high points.
***As for the reverse grades, using the high point picture earlier shown and applying a similar amount of wear progression these same grades can be obtained.
So whether you like your Busties bright, toned or original extra crusty.
I hope reading my theory on Grading Bust Half Dollars sheds some new light in your collecting enjoyment of LECBHD series.
I believe this is another missing die marriage from our display.
This is the 1827 O-107, R3 die marriage.
This die marriage was struck in the first half of calendar year 1828.
The obverse die used to strike this die marriage was Obverse die 5. This is the second use of this die. The die was first used to strike the 1827 O-108, also in calendar year 1828.
The reverse die used to strike this die marriage was Reverse die G. This was the first use of this die. The die was next used to strike the 1828 O-102. The die is renamed Reverse die B for the 1828 Busties.
The key identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) The second T of STATES is distinctly lower that the adjacent E and A. (2) The right base of A is well above the left base of M.
Here's another missing die STATE: the 1827 O-108, R4-. Also called the "Dotted Star" variety.
This die state was struck in the first half of calendar year 1828.
The obverse of this die was struck using Obverse Die 5-s2. This was the first use of this die. This die would be used again immediately after the striking of the 1828 O-101.
The reverse of the die was struck using Reverse Die H-s2. This reverse die was also used to strike the 1828 O-101. For the 1828 Busties this die is renamed Reverse Die A.
As first reported by Brad Karoleff in 1994 via the John Reich Journal, the 1827 O-108 plays part in one of the few die RE-MARRIAGES in the Capped Bust Half series.
1827 Obverse Die 5-s2 was mated with 1827 Reverse Die H to strike the 1827 O-108. At some point during the striking of these halves the Obverse Die was removed and replaced with 1828 Obverse Die 1 to strike the 1828 O-101.
To understand and visualize this it is helpful to note that in the striking of the 1827 O-108 the F in OF has no problems. As the mint began to strike the 1828 O-101 a die chip develops in the upper part of the F. Early Die States of the 1828 O-101 do not have this die chip in the F.
At some point during the striking of the 1828 O-101 (with the die chip in the F), 1828 Obverse Die A is removed and replaced with 1827 Obverse Die 5-s2. This is the same mating of the dies that produced the 1827 O-108.
This time it is the mating of Obv. Die 5-s2 and Rev. Die H-s2. (The reverse die is now called H-s2 because of the die chip in the F) ...but now with the die chip in the F, the mint is now striking the 1827 O-108a, R4-.
Things to note and look for when identifing this die marriage:
(1) On the 1827 O-108 a deliberate dot has been placed just above the inner point of star 1. (On "most" specimens of the O-108a this dot has been removed by die lapping.) (2) On the reverse there is patch of die dots in the field between the I of UNITED and the left wing. (On the O-108a, again due to lapping, only one or two die dots remain.)
Was lucky enought to get these beauties from board member edmerir. Both these share the same Reverse I. Thanks Ed. 1827 O-109 R4 And also her sister. 1827 O-110 R4
Comments
Edgar
Some diagnostics for 1827 O-118 R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. Star 2 points to lower half of dentil. Stars are large, and close to milling. (Obverse shared with O-119.)
Reverse: First line of stripe 4 extends well below shield. (This is not mentioned in the books.) “A” appears to touch upper arrowhead. Left sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
There are more marriages with this one obverse die in 1827 than any other.
But that certainly doesn't mean more coins were struck, but probably just the opposite.
With 100,00 to 300,000 coins per estimated die life expectancy, one could say possibly three quarters may be the correct summary in this case.
This can be seen in it's condition in it's final use in O-148.
With the milling still intact, recutting still showing in the stars.
Where most others would be drawn out, cracked and eroded to discard and replacement.
The combination of the common to the very RARE is also found with this obverse.
O/P's and L/G's sequences just happen to be in the same order.
Obv. 21
With the diagnostics from O/P, nearly all the stars showing recutting with small extra points.
There are fine die lines around the stars that become obscured as erosion continues.
A die line, an extention of the curl between "L" and "I" in Liberty that joins the Headband to the curl.
Certain smaller Fingerprints exsist also, the small spike above the "T" and inside die nick in "R" look to be identifiers for the "Liberty" die punch and is seen in other 1827 obverses.
A fine series of scratches within the curl.
First use in combination with Rev.X (second useage), this created O-131 R.2. (21 / X-s2)
The T to I alignment is Right side of T, left side of I. (not the O/P I centered under right side of T).
Unfinished die areas (raised looking), under the left wing and around the olive branches.
A fine die crack under the right wing.
The "0" in 50 C. leans to the right.
Arrowheads one and two connected at the shaft.
Second use in combination with Rev.Y, this created O-132 R.3. (21-s2 / Y)
The T to I alignment is the right side are inline.
"U" and "N" in United connect at the top.
Rust spots around the 50 C. area, along with other spots on the reverse.
The "C" in 50 C. recut in the upper right.
Filling in the lower part of the last stripe, engraver slips extend past the shield.
Additional die cracks emerge from the "C" & "A" in America and above the 50 C.
Third use in combination with Rev. Z, this created O-133 R.4. (21-s3 / Z)
The T to I alignment is the right side are inline
This is an easy remember with the die scratch above the right claw, but also the left wing.
Three small abraided lines at the top of the left wing, at first glance one would assume die clash.
But this isn't the case here as seen in the obv. / rev. overlay.
The last and fourth use in combination with Rev. AG, this created O-148 R.6+.
13 known and Very Rare! One For The Fortunate Lucky Few...
This baby has a cleaned and retoned reverse. Looks VF - XF to me, which of the 13 is it?
This is the second use of Rev. AG, first used in O-143. (21-s4 / AG-s2)
The T to I alignment is the right side left side are inline.
"E" and "D" of United touch, looks like a small chip on the lower "E"
The simple Dotted beak variety, plus "M"& "E" close right serif of "M" higher.
The simple Id'ing list is getting shorter for these die marriages anyone want to put together the list?
As in 5 words or less per die, just going from the reverses, then the obverses would fall into play.
Hey Mozin, what do we have left for 1827?
Can we make it to page 8? In the threads for this year?
Wow! Another great post.
Here is the current list of still missing from 1827: O-113, 126, 134, 135, 138
With the backing from you and edmerlr, it's worth it.
Why question when you can know!
We're making quick work of this thread, with the largest DM count too.
Edgar
In a REAL WORLD this is what an Original 180 year old coin should look like...
Untouched, as in this Very Crusty Bustie!
But this is untrue in todays world ($$$.99) as seen in this variant of O-135 ( Late die state ) by NGC.
Note the No Milling Shelf at the coins edge.
And another Obverse with the Diagnostic Spike and Chip in "Liberty".
AJ
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Do you have a matching reverse picture???
Edgar
P.S. SomeGuyFromMichigan and Mozin, Just wanted to say that your imaging is nothing short of fantastic! Nice work!
Edgar
Thanks for the compliment on my coin scans. You certainly have some nicely toned Busties.
At one time, I owned four 1827 O-120a specimens in XF45 and AU grades. I have never managed to buy even one 1827 O-120 prime. The prime seems to be very elusive.
Some diagnostics for 1827 O-138 R4:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. Date has small thick figures, and “2” has a thick base with high serif. Multiple diagonal lines show in field above cap. (Obverse shared with O-139.)
Reverse: Many vertical die lines show between eagle’s head and left wing. “50 C” is low, with smallest “C” of all 1827s. Stripes of shield are mostly solid. Left sides of “I” and “T” are in line. (Reverse shared with O-122.)
They always say a Picture is Worth a 1000 Words !
To show all the the details as you know, one has to look for the common characterists.
Present it in an appealing format that everyone can use, but the older you get the bigger the picture. Ha,ha,ha .....
I also take Pride in my ability to edit these Great (Busties) coin pictures!
And share a common love for these beauties!
Mozin, Another harder to find marriage, well done, one of my Favorite Obverses (24) in 1827.
I sold Ed my O-139 Gem AU58, with full milling on both sides, one tough die state !
It would probably be an R-7 if it was considered...
Have you ever noticed and then questioned yourself about little things you see?
Then remembering a similar appearance somewhere else.
Then putting it into a thought process of why it may have of occured.
So this gives us a little of what was the routine with the diesinker and die production of the Early U.S. Mint.
For example these three abraiding lines on the Eagles wing. (1827 O-133 Rev. Z.)
These lines are actually raised on the die, but show as cut-like marks in the coins.
I suggest that they are from the finishing of the die process.
You may ask yourself why these lines are sunken and how that came to be.
One has to remember the die is an opposite surface as in a coin's, so everything raised on a coin is sunken in the die.
The die is a flat surface with all the detail sunken into it, so when touch-up and lapping are required, it is done to a flat surface.
The ( lapping ) was done with a file & stone, the first harder, then finish with a stone which is softer than die steel.
The early files are not like the modern mass produced of today, they were hand cut and coarse alot like a rasp.
Burrs form grooves and ridges into the stones surface.
If the finish lapping is done in a straight motion the result is what is seen in the pictures.
Parallel lines, some raised and sunken.
If the lapping is done in a circular motion, well we have seen its results in other dies observed.
Then matching the effect in another year, say 1809. (1809 O-107 Rev. F)
Picture of (1809 O-107 Rev. F) showing both types.
I guess one could say the "cause and effect".
You certainly know a lot about CBHs. Thankfully, you also know how to write and illustrate very well.
Those raised marks on the die no doubt caused many potential CBH buyers to pass on the purchase, thinking the coin had scratches not mint caused. I know I have been fooled many times over the years.
<< <i>Here's my contribution, an AU 50
O.104 I believe
Welcome to our CU Capped Bust Half Dollar series.
We now have 125 CU members who have contributed to the success of this CBH series.
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 2. This die was used immediately prior to strike the 1827 O-104.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse die Z. This die was used earlier to strike the 1827 O-133.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) Mouth is distinctly open.
(2) Die lines from milling opposite and below end of bust are visible on most specimens.
(3) On the reverse about half of the stripe lines extend to the second crossbar.
(4) There is a vertical line in the feathers to the right of the lower crossbars in the shield. This line is very fine and visible only in higher grade specimens.
(5) On Early Die State examples of this die marriage the is a diagonal line in the field just outside the eagle's breast feathers above the right claw.
(I CANNOT GET A CLEAR PICTURE OF MOST OF THESE DIAGNOSTICS. IF SOMEONE CAN GET BETTER PHOTOS, PLEASE POST THEM.)
Photos of the 1827 O-134, R4:
Edgar
1827, O106, R2
Edgar
Edgar
Edgar
For those who Love these beauties....
The enhanced picture to unveil it all.
Hope you don't mind?
Mike
1827 O-129 Link
Plus a Die Clash Chart with Striking Weaknesses.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Currently Listed: Nothing
Take Care, Dave
I don't know how you manage to find Busties with such gorgeous tarnish.
Thanks Mozin... You half to look at a lot of frogs..."-)
Not sure on the provenance...
Did you see the write up SomeguyfromMichigan did on this 1827....?
Maybe he'll post it here to but here's the link, quarter way down on the second page...
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=588983
Currently Listed: Nothing
Take Care, Dave
So here it is.
Thanks DenverDave for posting a lovely coin!
That's a very Original looking Beauty !
I love the Peac_ck (A colorful irridesent bird) toned Busties...& especially PCGS AU's.
CU Board Censors hit this one...You have a forbidden word in your message post.
But yours may be of a different interest to many LECBHD collectors.
Not too many marriages of 1827 with this much die clash.
It is an interesting note that die clash has a major part in nearly every die marriage in one form or another, as seen throughout the series.
When one looks at the alignment, reversed and flipped to the opposing die, to see what caused the corresponding marks on the Obverse or Reverse of a given coin.
The eventual collaspe and discard of the die or dies as a result of the severaty of a die clash or (s) had been or the failure of a die at the juncture of the opposite feature..
One can actually see where formations of die cracks and where excessive lapping could develope just from the corresponding location of the opposing die and in the alignment of Letters, stars and the other features invovled.
Such as why some stars strike-up while others are flat.
So Dave I have used YOUR Bust Half for this, since it was your thread and coin.
***This post is dedicated to my Buddy, Ed (edmerlr) on these boards!
A #1 Bust Half Nut if there ever is one!
Get Well Soon!!!!
Looking at die clash, you the collector need two different models, obverse and reverse.
To get a good view the apposing forces.
Going through the O/P book, marriage after marriage the die damage done by die clash is related in die use (as in Obv. 1s2) and die state (as in a or b model).
And it can also be recognized in the terminology of EDS, IDS & LDS.
So to the Obverse.
In the first picture, this is the Obverse with the correct adjusted reverse orientation.
The first close-up picture shows us many of the areas that are susceptible to die cracking.
Above and below the date, inner points of the left stars.
Also the ragged die scrapes at the front and below left of the bust, but only after an attempt to remove them by lapping.
Also note the area of the wing in the left field, this is a continued area of whorl, as in metal flow on obverses throughout the series.
This is also where the die crack formation of the "Bearded Godess" began, 1807 O-111a, although a different Master Hub style (Low Relief), resulting in the same manner.
Then the next picture shows the stage of the popular shield lines under the ear, but one may not identify the "open mouth" with this type of problem. (Excessive lapping).
Next one.
Die cracking continuing around the right stars.
The observation of extra star points, some could be proven to die clash & lapping.
(Look closely)
And just about any marks above the Cap.
As in the "COMET" variety.
Tha last obverse picture.
Shows the final continuation of any die crack of the stars.
Note the location of the highest wing area, where this weakness develops in the hair.
Then the nortorious scroll above the date, more so in the early dates.
Or why are some clasps full, while others weak?
They correspond with the Eagles brow.
Now for the Reverse.
Procedure at the Mint didn't have anything to do with Rocket Science, trial and error was the name of the game back then.
When you analyze the reverse mock-up, things start to ring true on the possiblity of how & why things happened to these dies.
The bridge of the nose in the 1827 O-129 under eagle's wing. Various star to leaf items contributing to cracks and even drawing of the leaf ends.
This is probably the most common die clash that you will find in the series.
From the top of the Eagles wing to the scroll, this is just Lady Liberty's chest.
And the reason behind the weakness in "U R I" of the Motto.
The shoulder area, the die clashed area under the right scroll ob O-129, the very busy Stat "ES OF" area
where different things happen for 1827's reverses.
Reasons for the easy formation of die cracks at the base of America.
Die crack under the right wing, then this general weakness of many marriages at 50 C.
So what some may think of as damage or possibly outside the Mint produced, may just be the result of
common striking problems and die clash of a different time.
Thanks Mike
The 1827 O-140a, R5.
Same as the O-140 except severe die cracks.
One from rim near bust joins all stars on the left. A second crack joins all figures of the date and all stars on the right.
Photos of my 1827 O-140a, R5:
Great Tutorial!
Excellent work!
Edgar
Coming from you means alot.
I just try to accurately describe what I see.
Then present it in a form that clearly shows my message.
I do have to say, that the combination in the toning on Denver Dave's half
made this overlay come out so well.
Now Edgar, here's one for you....[/]
So you think you know how to grade, high grade Bust coinage???
Huh, Huh, Huh... Do Ya???
Wait until I prove to you different!!!
Yes, this will be a challenge !
So give me about a week or so...
P.S. Thanks Mozin, Great group of 1827's!
Mike
You promised some new insight into 1827 grading.
Edgar has responded.
The clock is ticking.
I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT.
(I have put you on a golden pedestal. Don't make me have to remove the pedestal.)
Regards (from your Buddy),
Ed Richter (aka edmerlr)
PS: What would you charge to send me a PM including the attribution of every darn 1827 that appears on eBay? Can you imagine how much time this would save me. Hey! Maybe this is a business we could start. You do the attibutions. I send out the e-mails. What do we charge for an annual subscription? Would we have any takers?
This is not one of my favorite 1827 Busties in my collection because it has been wiped.
At the same time---I'll share with you, if you are interested---this was one of the hardest 1827 die STATES for me to find.
This was the second to the last die state I needed to complete my 1827 DS collection (I will never own the O-148 & 149). This was the first (affordable) O-112a that I found and the last (affordable) one that I have seen available. BUT IT'S ONLY A R4 !!! What gives?
The O-112a is identical to the O-112 except for two die cracks near the date. The first die runs from edge below date between 82 into the bust. The second runs from the edge between 7 and star 13 up into the curls. (Red Arrows in my photo.)
In Very Late Die States of the O-112a there is an additional die crack from above the cap to between the R and T in the headband going into the curls. My coin has only the very beginning of this die crack. (Green Arrows in my photo.)
Photos of my 1827 O-112a, R4: (ex Schertz, Prouty collections)
Actually, edmerlr told me you crashed your hard drive (a "likely" story) or was it your house lost power (probably ANOTHER likely story).
Meanwhile while we wait (and wait . . . and wait), here's another piece for comparison.
Edgar
1827/6, O-102, R1
Obverse: Curve of the underlying 6 just to the right of the 7. Rev: Small crack to just to the right of the last A in AMERICA - from dentil to a and to crossbar of A. Strong on Early Die States (EDS) and "blobish" but still visible on (Late Die States (LDS).
Your nervous inhibitions can keep tapping...
Yes, We did have a major Meltdown at our house.
I'm sorry for the delay on posting this addtion to the 1827 thread.
Mike
Huh, Huh, Huh... Do Ya???
Maybe we can use this as a fun and a new approach to some Bust half topics..."The Challenge".
This wasn't directed at Edgar (Fever) Souders, it was to draw attention to this topic!
I guess we think we know the process it takes to create a coin. (Back then)
But at the Early Mint there were constant problems.
Little as they may have been, there were the constant adjustments and tightening of equipment.
The hand production and maintenance of the dies.
But this was the modern technology of the time.
From the drawing of the strip stock, planchet cutting (punching),
upsetting and lettering of the edge and to the striking of the coin itself.
Things happen at each stage that affected how the Mint's finished product came out.
Ok, so you've read this far and think what does this have to do with coin grading?
I say alot !
The overlooked! The misunderstood! The misinterpreted!
(This line is in invisible text and is only a sublimnial message)
The modern brainwashing of coin grading as set to standards for the uninformed.
Buy an (authenticated) coin in a slab, it has a grade assigned, pay me X amount of $$$.
But this brings me back to an old editorial "The Other Side of the Coin", I can't remember who wrote it.
But it had a catchy title which I remember here.
I feel the the Early U.S. Coinage needs a revival in the understanding of how
the fledgling Mint's products were produced.
And why, at each stage it had a different direct effect to the planchet.
Then an explanation of what is overlooked in obtaining a grade.
Ok, we know that the strip stock was mechanically drawn through dies. (Historical record)
Not the same as today, but without all the modern apparatuses used to obtain stock.
But what you don't see is the silver particles realigning themselves in this process.
Let us say, they are now running in the same direction >>>>.
This stock is now punched into the proper size planchets, probably dropping into some sort
of containment vessel.
This changes the particle movement, and creates a downward movement at the edge VVVV.
Next, is a trip through the Castaing machine, where the edge is upset to allow for proper borders and
lettering the edge at the same time.
Adding an interesting twist by forcing the particles back into the planchet and outward to the
surface at the edges face <<<<^^^^VVVV.
Together, leaving a dulled silver surface with a myriad of scattered marks.
I couldn't find an early planchet picture, this 20th century one, does show what I'm saying.
The finished planchets are now brought to a coining press.
A handcranked screw style press to be exact with an open collar.
Loaded into a tube to be dropped singularly onto the dies.
So now we are ready to see this planchet struck.
The press operater gives a pull, the top die comes down and Ta Da!!!!
We have a freshly minted coin.
But what happened to our planchet at this stage???
Have you heard of the expression "...hot off the press!"?
This is referring to the metal of the coin being forced to fill the recesses of the space between
the two dies.
At that moment this metal flow creates heat, it is this movement combined with the heat
that once again changes the little particles of silver (now radiating outward)
and in a way that crystalizes the new coins surface in the form of Luster.
So we now have a flashy cartwheel lustered new half dollar...
or the way the Reflected light dances across the coins surface.
Ok, we have gone through the minting process, now to understand
what was said vs. what you are seeing when you grade a Bust Half Dollar.
Think of a coin's surface as you would look at a topographical map,
the smallest loops start at the highest points.
So of course that is where you would look for the first signs of wear.
First of all, an area of a coin that is most overlooked is the field.
Technically, it comprises more surface area than the features.
Luster loss, hairlines are clues to what may have been done to your half.
Many of you have heard major dealers and collectors complain about the patches of
so called wear on the cheek on some AU / Mint State graded slabbed coins
and they wouldn't buy them because of the wear on these high points.
But are they as informed as they think they are???
Naddah ! Why?
Because they don't understand this process and what they are looking at.
Here we have a product created entirely by hand!
Each example should be considered on it's own merits and not as a generic type!
(I think the EAC does this, you do see Net EAC grades.)
They probably deal more in machine made! (There are the exceptions to this!)
So back to (This line is in invisible text and is only a sublimnial message)
"...the modern brainwashing of coin grading" theory.
Ok, now finally the grading process.
Many may think, a full strike has alot to do with the grade, but really it's just the ultimate to have.
Full strikes do not come in every date or marriage and it is probably the exception.
Mint State:
The uncirculated state of a coin, never in circulation.
Comes in varying degrees of Mint State, 60 to 70, a numerical grade.
No rub, various bagmarks. Perfect does not exsist in LECBHD series.
Most years are only 96 percent fully struck, but some are more and some less.
Since this may run on an average, given a particular year or marriage,
what is left is the incompleted surface.
This is the surface of the raw planchet, with no metal flow to move the small silver particles outward,
with the Myriad of fine lines, not rub!
This resulting effect is the same as seen on the coins deemed non Mint State or overgraded.
You could be looking at one beautifully toned lusterous half with an area of dull grey silver on the
cheek or breast. (Rub is rub, the more you look at coins the more you see!) But not here.
It is here where the close observation of the fields comes into play too.
When the metal doesn't move there is no crystalized surface to reflect the light !
This is seen throught the series, with most shunning them as lesser examples.
AU, Almost Uncirculated:
The circulated state of a coin, taken in from circulation.
Comes in varying degrees of AU, 50 to 58, a numerical grade.
Over the years individuals (collectors and dealers alike).
Having damaged the surfaces of the individual coins, dipping, polishing
(remember when "... shiney is better"),
from sliding them in and out of folders.
Resulting in an altered state of hairlined, dulled, polished and now over marked surfaces.
Many of these coins are downgraded to a net grade.
So this also has to be taken into consideration.
Pictures, First to last.
AU 58
Just a touch of rub on the highest points of the design.
AU 55
Areas of wear forming on the bust , cheek and high points of the hair.
AU 53
These same areas as in AU55 are now patches.
AU50
Loss of detail, the patches of wear now eliminate the fine lines of drapery and hair at the high points.
***As for the reverse grades, using the high point picture earlier shown and applying a similar amount of wear progression
these same grades can be obtained.
So whether you like your Busties bright, toned or original extra crusty.
I hope reading my theory on Grading Bust Half Dollars sheds some new light in your collecting enjoyment of LECBHD series.
Mike
Thank you for that post.
Any and all are welcome !!!
From Good to Mint state we still need more!
Mike
This is the 1827 O-107, R3 die marriage.
This die marriage was struck in the first half of calendar year 1828.
The obverse die used to strike this die marriage was Obverse die 5. This is the second use of this die. The die was first used to strike the 1827 O-108, also in calendar year 1828.
The reverse die used to strike this die marriage was Reverse die G. This was the first use of this die. The die was next used to strike the 1828 O-102. The die is renamed Reverse die B for the 1828 Busties.
The key identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) The second T of STATES is distinctly lower that the adjacent E and A.
(2) The right base of A is well above the left base of M.
Photos of my 1827 O-107, R3:
Some diagnostics for 1827/6 O-102 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of a dentil. 7 cut over 6. (Obverse is LDS of O-101. O-103 is a VLDS of this same obverse.)
Reverse: Die break to upper right of A3. AM joined at base, and M is higher at base. Right sides of I and T are in line.
This die state was struck in the first half of calendar year 1828.
The obverse of this die was struck using Obverse Die 5-s2. This was the first use of this die. This die would be used again immediately after the striking of the 1828 O-101.
The reverse of the die was struck using Reverse Die H-s2. This reverse die was also used to strike the 1828 O-101. For the 1828 Busties this die is renamed Reverse Die A.
As first reported by Brad Karoleff in 1994 via the John Reich Journal, the 1827 O-108 plays part in one of the few die RE-MARRIAGES in the Capped Bust Half series.
1827 Obverse Die 5-s2 was mated with 1827 Reverse Die H to strike the 1827 O-108. At some point during the striking of these halves the Obverse Die was removed and replaced with 1828 Obverse Die 1 to strike the 1828 O-101.
To understand and visualize this it is helpful to note that in the striking of the 1827 O-108 the F in OF has no problems. As the mint began to strike the 1828 O-101 a die chip develops in the upper part of the F. Early Die States of the 1828 O-101 do not have this die chip in the F.
At some point during the striking of the 1828 O-101 (with the die chip in the F), 1828 Obverse Die A is removed and replaced with 1827 Obverse Die 5-s2. This is the same mating of the dies that produced the 1827 O-108.
This time it is the mating of Obv. Die 5-s2 and Rev. Die H-s2. (The reverse die is now called H-s2 because of the die chip in the F) ...but now with the die chip in the F, the mint is now striking the 1827 O-108a, R4-.
Things to note and look for when identifing this die marriage:
(1) On the 1827 O-108 a deliberate dot has been placed just above the inner point of star 1. (On "most" specimens of the O-108a this dot has been removed by die lapping.)
(2) On the reverse there is patch of die dots in the field between the I of UNITED and the left wing. (On the O-108a, again due to lapping, only one or two die dots remain.)
Photos of my 1827 O-108, R4-:
1827 O-109 R4
And also her sister.
1827 O-110 R4