Good observation on Slipgate's coin. It is O-129 R4-, not O-117. Thanks for providing us with the O-117, so I don't need to make the correction in our listing for missing marriages.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Some diagnostics for Square base 2 1827 O-108a R4-:
Obverse: Star 1 points to center of dentil. There is a die dot just above the lower inner point of star 1. (Obverse is LDS of O-107.)
Reverse: This specimen is from the second marriage of these two dies, so the die dots beneath “IT” are not present, as they would be on the first marriage. This reverse was paired with 1828 O-101 obverse, and then returned for the second marriage of 1827 O-108a. This specimen shows a die break lump in the upper part of “F”. Most of the stripe lines extend too far downwards, to feathers and claw. Left sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
OKAY THIS IS ANOTHER ONE OF THE INFAMOUS 1827's THAT ARE REALLY TOUGH TO ATTRIBUTE.
So here we go. This is the O-139 The reverse can be attributed as V by noting the I in PLURIBUS has a little hortizonal die line about mid section. Look real close because it is difficult to see.
Now that we have the V reverse we have to decide if it is the O-128 or the O-139 obverse. Not easy as the star positions are almost identical. So here we go the R. Zornes way. Star 13 on the O-128 is pointing under the main lower curl. The O-139 is pointing higher up on the lower curl.
That's it. No wonder the 1827's are the easiest to cherry pick but the most difficult to attribute. Better have your book with you or have a photographic memory.
Nice job BiddlesBank, interesting observations. Here is the 1827 O-128 R4- you used for comparison. Slowly, we plod our way through the 49 marriages for mint year 1827. Too bad we had that member exodus to the NGC forum.
Some diagnostics for 1827 O-128 R4-:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower edge of dentil. Star 7 points between dentils, and to upper half of the headband. Note the position of Star 13, as BiddlesBank notes, points lower on the curl than on O-139. (Obverse shared with O-129 & O-130.)
Reverse: A die line shows at middle of the “I” in the scroll. “E” in “STATES” is recut, showing at top. Lines 1 and 3 of stripe 1, and line 3 of stripe 6, extend too far upwards. “I” centered under left side of “T”.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
You are always gracious to a person when posting to the bust half threads. It's a good incentive to post. Might be the only compliment a person gets all day long.
Just noticed your coin was not attributed. It appears to me to be 1827 O-106 R2. This marriage was posted earlier by MikeKing and fengk. You might want to compare yours with theirs, just to make sure.
Remember everyone, we want all the duplicate marriage postings we can get.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
I don't think one of these is up here yet? I just got it today!
1827, O-140 square base 2
some diags for this variety:
Obv. 1) the 2 has been recut at the upper curl 2) A very pronounced "block" chin.
Rev. 1) AA is less than 1/4 mm (distance of top arrow to last A of America) 2) Center bar of stripe 3 extends to crossbar 5 3) Line 3 of stripe 1 extends to crossbar 4. (I also notice on mine that Line 1 and 2 of stripe 1 extend to crossbar 2.)
Thanks Mozin, I wouldn't call it a cherry - maybe a plum. I did get it for less than I expected for an R4+, but it still had a pretty hefty premium over the bid/ask for an XF-45.
I don't know why but this 1827/6 O-103, R4 was one of the toughest 1827 DM's for me to find.
As soon as I saw it in the dealer's case I knew it was mine. I was hoping he would lower the price and I was trying very hard not to show any enthusiasm. I didn't want him to read my body language and realise that I "had to have this coin!"
Fortunately he lowered the price, I bought the coin, I carried it home securely in my briefcase, and I prompty---upon arriving home---gave it freedom by removing it from its NGC AU-58 plastic coffin.
The obverse die was used for the third and final time to strike this die marriage. First it was used on the O-101, then on the O-102 and finally on the O-103. But the Mint did not strike these coins in an uninterrupted sequence. The Mint had as much trouble striking 1827's as I did finding this specific 1827 DM.
Let me explain. It appears the Mint overdated an 1826 dated die (what we call obv. die 1) to use while waiting for the new 1827 dated dies to be completed. The first coin that was struck with the 1827 date was the 1827/6 using obv. die 1 and rev. die A. It was the second and last use of rev. die A---it was previously used to strike the 1826 O-120. (It was called rev. die R in 1826)
After some use, reverse die A fails. Obv. die 1 is starting to show some wear, but it is still usable. So the Mint combines a new reverse die with obverse die 1. The Mint now begins to strike 1827/6 O-102 using obv. die 1-s2 (renamed because of the stage of die wear) and new reverse die B.
After striking the O-102, something happens to obv. die 1-s2. It needs to be removed from the screw press and reworked, retooled, lapped, whatever (saved for a "rainy day?"). The Mint cannot stop production. The new 1827 dated obverse dies are not ready. What to do?
The coiner decides to combine an old 1826 obverse die (Obv. die 9-s2, previously used on the 1826 O-113) with the 1827 reverse die B (we call it rev. die N in the 1826 series) The Mint now begins to strike the 1826 O-114 even though it is the calendar year 1827.
The dies for the 1826 O-114 start to wear. A 1827 dated die is finally ready. Coin production cannot stop. Both of the 1826 O-114 dies are removed from the screw press. The brand new 1827 dated obverse die is installed (obv. die 14) with along with a new reverse die.
The Mint now begins to strike the first NON-OVERDATE 1827 coin. It is the O-118 using obv. die 14 and rev. die O.
Eventually reverse die O fails. Production cannot stop. A new reverse die is installed. The Mint now begins to strike the 1827 O-119 using obv. die 14-s2 (renamed for the stage of die wear) with rev. die C.
Darn! As they were striking the O-119, obverse die 14-s2 (already worn from its previous use on the O-118) fails. Reverse die C is still in good shape. There are no new 1827 dated dies ready. Production cannot stop. What to do?
The Coiner decides that he has only one option. He has to pull the old 1827/6 overdated obverse die 1-s2 out of storage. You know, the one he saved for a "rainy day." This worn die was previously used to strike the O-101 and then the O-102. "It sill has some use in it," the Coiner thinks to himself.
The Mint begins to strike the 1827/6 O-103 using obv. die 1-s3 (renamed for its stage of die wear) and reverse C. The rev. die C is still in the screw press---afterall it was being used previously on the 1827 O-119.
The 1827/6 O-103 has now been born.
The O-103 can be easily confused with the O-101 and O-102. Remember, they have the same obverse die.
The O/P book lists all of the neat reverse diagnostic differences between these die marriages. The key ones to look for on the O-103 is the recut upright of the 5 (visible in my photo) and the multiple lines beneath the shield between gules 3, 4, and 5. (I am not sure if you can see this in my photo, but there is a great picture of this in Peterson's book.)
SIDENOTE: After striking the 1827/6 O-103 the Mint began to strike the rare 1826 O-103. I guess obverse die 1-s3 didn't last THAT LONG. Is this why the 1827 O-103 is a R4 and not a R1, R2, or R3? Myself, and many others, find it fascinating to relate Emission Order with die usage and wear with rarity ratings. Give it a try.
One of these die marriages is already posted in the Forum, but I thought I would post pictures of mine.
This is to remind us that we all may want ONLY coins with eye appeal in our collection.
...but sometimes we have to bend the rules and eye appeal becomes not as important.
Here is the coin:
The 1827 O-137 die marriage.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage (for cherrypicking purposes):
(1) On the obverse, stars 12 and 13 are close together.
(2) On the reverse the I is far left of the T.
(3) On the reverse there are extra feathers on the right of the right wing
The obverse was struck using obverse die 23, which was used immediately prior on the 1827 O-136.
The reverse was struck using reverse die AC, which was used two years earlier to strike the 1825 O-110 and the 1825 O-109. In 1825 the reverse die was named rev. die I.
I would like to discuss the specfic coin pictured later, but first let's talk about the dies and the diagnostics of this die marriage.
The O-124 is one of the those Busties whose rarity falls on the threshold between "rare" and "very rare." The Bust Half Nut Club has refined the O-124's rarity to a R5+. Translated into numbers, this means that there are 31 to 46 specimens estimated to still exist.
The obverse die used to strike this die marriage was Obverse die 17. This was the second usage of this die. The die was used immediately prior to strike the O-135. (Quick aside: The O/P books state that O-135 was struck with Obv. die 22. This is incorrect. It was struck with Obv. die 17.)
Obverse die 17 was in bad shape while striking the last of the O-135's. Late die states of that die marriage showed light milling and the stars drawn to the edge. The die was in this condition when it was combined with a new reverse die to strike the O-124.
The Star 7 diagnostic for the O-124 in the O/P says "S7X-JCHb." The "X" stands for not clear or unknown. You simply have to look at the Star 7 diagnostic for the O-135 to know that they both should read "S7B-JCHb."
Reverse die T was used to strike the O-124. This was the first usage of this die. After striking the O-124, this die was used immediately after to strike the scarce 1827 O-125 die marriage.
The quick identifiers for this die marriage can both be seen on the coin pictured without any blow-ups of the photos. (For a double-check to confirm what you are looking for, refer to Peterson's "The Ultimate Guide...")
(1) On the obverse there is a thin line resembling a hair just beneath the I in LIBERTY. (This is on the O-124 and O-135.)
(2) On the reverse the middle line of the fourth stripe extends below the shield. This is very clear on the photo. (O-125 also has this)
**** I purchased the pictured coin from a dealer who specializes in Bust Halves. He attributed the coin as the Late Die State (O-124a, R5+). The O/P book clearly states in speaking about the O-124a's obverse: "...no milling remains." My coin has a trace of milling on the obverse---therefore I have always called mine the O-124, R5+.
The coin in the photo is a beautiful example of this die marriage. ...BUT IT HAS A FLAW.
On the obverse there is a tiny void at the neck. (Those of you with Herrman's AMBPR will have no problem finding this coin listed because of the "void.") I have no idea what caused this "void." I would like to think that this "void" is merely a planchet defect. Therefore this is how the coin was struck and left the Mint. If this were the case, this would be another way of saying: "This is NOT a problem coin."
Or, I would like to think of something historically romantic: Did Daniel Boone, bored in the Kentucky winter, take his knife and drill a small void in the coin while waiting for the bears to come out of hibernation? Nope. Didn't happen. Boone died in 1820. (Ok, maybe it was Davey Crockett's knife?)
Oh well, put a tiny piece of a Post-it Note over the void and the coin looks perfect. It's a R5+ afterall. Give me a break !!! Considering of the depth of my tiny coin purchasing budget, who cares?
Any comments or insight regarding the "void" from Mozin, or Slumlord, or Fever, or others would be warmly appreciated.
I think your 1827 O-124 has either a planchet void, or it could be a delaminated planchet. If it was a plan void, it would have been a pretty deep void, or the metal flow would have covered it. If the coin was struck, and sometime later, a piece fell off the coin because of a lamination defect, I think this would be the result seen in your coin.
I doubt the coin could have been damaged after it was minted, because the void looks too rough, not smooth like from a poke. I am no expert on these defects.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
I tend to go along with Mozin on this one as a planchet lamination that popped off - post Mint. I base this comment solely on the image Ed supplied. The only thing that bothers me about this is what appears to be a "cross hatched" area right where Miss Liberty's double chine (if she had one) would appear. I could just be the image but it sort of looks like a blunt object was hit on the coin.
This is one of those things where an up close and personal examination would likely tell us a better story of what was/is going on. Say, 50X and then 100X under a good stereomicroscope. You SHOULD be able to spot the characteristics of a lamination flake at this higher power.
Ed, you could always drill a hole thru it the rest of the way and wear it as a necklace! Just kidding!
OK, Ok! Hey Gang, I am waiting for more of you to post pictures of your Busties! We still have some missing die marriages to fill.
I find it very hard (addicted as I am to the LECBH) to sit on my hands and wait. …so I thought I would post a “repeater.”
The repeater: OKbustchaser posted the 1827 O-116 die marriage on page two of this Thread.
This is one of my favorite 1827 die marriages, so I thought you might like to see both the O-116 Early Die State and its Late Die State. What made this one of my favorite DM’s of the 1827’s is that finally, finally I found an example of the “a model” LDS for my collection. All right, I confess, it really is the EDS of the LDS, but I settled. Does this sound confusing? I will explain this later just before the O-116a’s photos.
The 1827 O-116 die marriage was struck using Obverse die 12 and Reverse die E. This was the only use of these dies. The obverse die broke up. We do not know why the reverse die was not used on another die marriage.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) The chin has been retooled to a square rather than a rounded appearance. (Is it just me, or do some of the other chins have "sort of" a square appearance?)
(2) The mouth is open.
(3) On the reverse the flag of the 5 has been recut. It appears to have a double tip at the end. (This is also a diagnostic for the O-105.)
(4) There are lumps caused by die rusting around ES O, under A3 and on the field under the eagle's head. These are usually only visible on higher grade specimens.
This die marriage is listed as a R5 for both die states in the O/P book. The Bust Half Nut Club revised the rarity down to a R4+ in 2004.
Photos of the 1827 O-116, R4+:
***************** The Late Die State of the 1827 O-116 die marriage (O-116a):
The only difference between the EDS and the LDS is an obverse die crack from the edge through the upper points of star two to the neck.
The coin that I have pictured shows that this die crack---in its entirety---did not happen overnight. The die crack and the crack "grew" through die usage. It started from the edge and eventually reached the Portrait's neck.
The LDS that I found is an Early Die State. That is, the die crack comes from the edge, goes through the upper points of star two and stops in the field. In total, it progresses almost 1/2 of the way from the edge into the field. You can see it in the photo.
NOTE: Technically this is an Intermediate Die State because the die crack does not extend exactly as described in the O/P book. In this case, if you have the IDS, is it an O-116 or an O-116a? The rule is that if both the EDS and the LDS have the same rarity rating, then the coin can be called either number. I call mine the O-116a. (If the rarity ratings were different, then the IDS is called the Overton die state number of the lowest rated of the two die states.)
The 1827 O-146 and O-147 die marriages have been shown on page 1 of this Thread.
As you all know, of the 49 1827 die marriages, these are the only 2 which have the Curled Base 2.
The O-146 is rarity rated as R2. R2 is defined as “slightly uncommon.” This means, per the O/P book, that somewhere between 500 to 1,000 specimens are thought to exist.
The O-147 is rarity rated as R4. R4 is defined as “very scarce.” The Overton/Parsley book rarity rates this die marriage as a R4. R4 is, per the O/P book, is somewhere between 81 to 200 specimens are thought to exist.
The R4 rating was refined by The Bust Half Nut Club a few years ago to divide the R4’s into three groups: The R4-, the R4, and the R4+. This revision was made after careful research. R4 is now defined to mean 121 to 160 specimens are estimated to exist.
The rarity estimates of the Curl Base 2’s are inflated slightly by Edgar Souders in BHF II. He estimates that at the very most there are “…no more than 1,500 examples extant in all of numismatics" of both die marriages combined. Compare this with the surviving number of all of the 1827’s. 1,500 is not very many for two die marriages. One of which is considered closer to “common” than “rare.”
If you are looking for ONLY ONE Curled Base 2 for your collection or if you, for some reason, want to hoard a dozen or so of them for an investment, I suggest you invest (most of) your money in the rarer O-147, R4 die marriage.
Learn how to tell the difference without the aid of the Overton/Parsley book. …and with minimal memory.
Situation: On eBay or at a coin show you find an 1827 with a Curl Base 2. You look at the reverse of the coin.
Without the O/P book can you instantly identify the O-147, R4?
Following are photos of the reverses of both die marriages. One is pictured first, then the other.
Which one is the O-147? (Yes, one reverse is “prettier” than the other, but this is not a hint.)
Can you tell which one is the rarer one?
Don't read down just yet.
Go back and look at the photos.
I are you sure you know which one is the R4 coin?
Yes.
OK. Now you can read below:
I have a little ditty I memorized. A word/memory trick, if you will. This comes in handy at coin shows and/or when I am trolling eBay looking for a R4 coin at a R2 price.
It is: “Remember the right one not the wrong one.”
In plain English it means: On the O-147, R4 the I is on the RIGHT side of the T. On the O-146, R2 the I is towards the LEFT side of the T.
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. Large sharp stars are close to milling. Star 7 touches and points to center of dentil, and to junction of curl and headband. (Obverse shared with O-111.)
Reverse: The first two lines of the first three stripes are short at the bottom shield margin, forming a stair-step pattern. Left side of “I” is under the right side of “T”. (Reverse shared with O-109.)
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
This is one of the real toughies of the 1827's. The Bust Half Nut Club has refined the DM's rarity rating to R5+. R5+ denotes that 31 to 46 specimens are estimated to still exist.
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 28. This is the second use of this die. The die was used earlier in the year to strike the rare O-145 die marriage.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse die F. This is the second use of this die. The die was used earlier in the year to strike the slightly uncommon O-106 die marriage.
On circulated specimens this can be a difficult die marriage to attribute.
The quick identifiers for this marriage may be worn away or almost indistinguishable. If you think you may have this die marriage, grab the O/P book, check everything two or three times.
Quick identifiers:
(1) On the obverse there is a small tine in front of the base of the bust. (This may not show in my photo. Refer to the Peterson book for a clear photo of this.) This identifier is also on the rare O-145. This is unique to these two DM's.
(2) On the reverse several lines of the 4th stripe extend up into the lower two crossbars. The third line of the 5th stripe extends up two crossbars. This is also true of the O-106. (Refer to Peterson for clear photos.)
NOTE: If you think you have the O-106, but hope it really is the rare O-144, open the O/P book and look at the photos of the two die marriages. Notice the position of the 7 in comparison to the lower curls above it. The difference between the two die marriages becomes very obvious when you compare these two photos in the book.
Which came first the chicken or the egg ? The same stands true with the 1827 O-149. In the Leaman - Gunnet Emmission Sequence they make this point.
With the use of Obverse 15, which O-120 and O-149 commonly share. The qualifing characteristics of this obverse is a series of heavy die scratches which runs along the milling and below the Bust. (pic)
The O-120 comes in with an "a" model state with die cracks running under the date and upward on both sides. The closer spacing of indivdual stars, Left side: 5 & 6 closer, 7 futher slightly rotated and dropped. Right side: 9 & 10 closer.
Another tell-tale is the die scratch under star 13. (pic) for O-120a.
So in this, tells us the O-149 came first! But this is only the first half of a Truer picture...
Now we have Reverse Die K which is shared with two other marriages in 1827, O-112 using 8K and O-113 using 9K. At this point we are looking at properties of four different marriage possibilities. And yes, 1827 is a Cherry Pickers Year ! Since Rev. K is now in it's final use or S-3 you will notice the lack of milling and the drawn state of the die. With the reverse striking sequence of O-113, O-112 and O-149. Adding some points here, are die clash that has been polished away from O-112.
The general diagnostics here are the first "S" in States recut, as seen in the upper loop and a small spike at the base. (pic)
"A T" in States touch at the bottom. (pic)
The T to I alignment is right side / left side. (pic) The stripes in the shield are evident, but only in higher grades.
This last item is an engraver tool error at the inside base of the shield. (pic) This is not the one Overton lists.
An additional added here is the "E" in States is tilted slightly to the right with lower left serif higher than the serif of "T".
I figured this would be one way to get the Very Rare 1827 O-149 R-8 (3 known) on the board. The facsimile of the O-149 photograph but correct diagnostics. This also covers the last four die marriages in the Leaman - Gunnet Emmission Sequence for 1827.
Attributing the 1827 die marriages is fun and easy...
What a neat way to present the 1827 O-149 die marriage that is so rare that only 3 people on the whole planet have one.
To summarize:
Obverse die 15 which was also used on the O-120. Reverse die K which was also used on the O-112 and O-113.
Combine an obverse of an O-120 together with the reverse of either the O-112 or O-113.
...then you sprinkle in a few minor diagnostic differences.
Presto, you have an O-149 !!!!
Too simple. Why didn't I think of this?
(Don't tell the counterfeitors. They'll be cutting an O-120 in half and gluing it to half of an O-112 or O-113. Then they will put it on eBay---guaranteeing it to be original. Well. ...each half is original.)
Welcome to the forum, and to our Lettered Edge Capped Bust Half Dollar series. Feel free to comment in any of our mint year threads. You are contributing member 117.
I mean it too! I am part of your collection. As you know I have been working on the 1827 dies & marriages for over a year now. I will be Glad to lend my input into any questions.
That is what I was hoping for. I like details, not guesses! Here's one for you, How many Master Hubs were used on the reverses of 1827? Not including the New one I discovered eariler this year!
Hey welcome SomeGuyFromMichigan. From someone who is really enjoying learning about this series, between you, Ed, Mozin, slumlord, Nysoto, Edgar, BB (while he was here ) OKbustchaser and others, I am soaking all this up like a sponge. Thanks just doesn't cut it.... Please continue to help us newer CBH guys out, we sure do appreciate the insight. I can honestly say that since Mozin started this series, I am impressed by you guys EVERY DAY.
Since we are working on threads to possibly get all the die marriages of the Letter Edge Capped Bust Half Dollars, this one being of 1827. The specifics are important. A Collector looking at their coin and trying to attribute it via a book in print will have questions because the "little things" are left out ! I personally like the "little things", as it makes attribution an easier task. Putting together this information takes experience, time and patience. For me, starting with the reverse, as there is more there... so more human errors occured.
1827 THE OVERDATE
Obverse die 1, this is one of 3 workhorse dies of 1827. As mentioned earlier by "edmerlr" of (Monday April 16, 2007 11:31 AM ), the rational evolution of these marriages from the die pairings.
Obv.1 (O-101) starts out as a 1826 obverse die (this die may have been shelved because of the erroneous 6 placement, wide and high of the 182) and then overdated to 1827. When looking at the date you see a large 7 with a bubulous base. On early strikes the evident underlying 6 strongly shows to the right side and above the top . The spacing above the 1 and the drapery is about 2 to 1 as to the milling or dentiles. The spacing of the stars is also noticeable. The left side 5 & 6 the closest, 6 & 7 the farthest. On the right side the gap between 9 & 10. Stars & hair are full as well as the milling.
Obv.1-s2 (O-102) This next stage of obverse 1, now shows a flattening of the hair details, as in the curl above the eye and ear and behind the "Y" in Liberty. Milling details are lacking and the star points are now drawing to the rim. The movement of the base of the 7 now procedes.
Obv. 1-s3 (O-103) The final stage of erosion! Sometime in this stage the dies clashed, the die clash marks under the ear which are the shield stripes from the reverse are now a prominent feature. The long drawn out 7 to the coins edge. The flattened non-detailed milling, and star points also extend to the edge.
Now for the reverses!
Rev. A as before 1826 rev. die R. The "C" in America is clipped on the lower back side. T to I alignment, left sides inline. ***(This alignment is very important when ID'ing reverses)
Die cracks (2) running around from arrow points to "U" in United to STATE of States. Die scratch under right wing, lighter on some do to lapping. "C" in Cents recut.
Rev. B, Recycled 1826 rev. die N. or (Apostrophe A) Apostrophe upper left side of last "A" in America. T to I alignment, center of T, left side of I.
Last "S" in States higher than the other letters. The reason I don't mention the AM being joined, is that the three reverses have that in common. Rev. A is very close, B touches & C is very close.
Rev. C This is one of my discoveries, there is a notch in the Eagle's wing at the base of the neck, thus "Notched Wing" (easy ID). T to I alignment, center of T, right side of I.
First "T" in States lower than adjacent letters. The 5 is recut on the back of the upright. Also notice a somewhat scalloped effect at the top of the scroll under STATES. Also used on the O-119.
So with this information you can now easily tell the difference between the commons and the R- 4 Cherrypick ! But any all original high grade Overdate is a Cherrypick in itself...
Ok, so I'm not edmerlr, but here is my 1827 O 102. The bottom of the six is peeking out to the lower right of seven like a tine. This one looks to be some where in between SGFM's two coins? I tried to convince Ed that he should have called it the 2nd quarter of his honeymoon but he decided to stick with the second half! He might reget it a year from now!Ha Ha
Cool The more the merrier. I guess we'll find out Monday when he's back ! It would have be an easy ID on the obverse had it been in production. 1826 Far 6.
...regarding the date close-ups of the three 1827/6's you posted. To my old, far-sighted, senior eyes, the upturn in the top curl of the 2 in the RIGHT photo seems to be pointing in a different direction.
My third picture does appear to have the upper curl of the 2 pointing differently than the first two pictured 2s. I think it is just a picture difference that makes the two look different. The third coin is rotated in the holder, so the scanner lighting caught the 2 at a different angle.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
The 1827 O-143 die marriage. This is rarity rated R3, for "scarce."
This is one of two "Dotted Beak" 1827 die marriages. The other Dotted Beak DM is the very rare O-148, R6+.
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 27. This was the second and last use of this die. The die was used immediately prior to strike the scarce O-142 die marriage.
The reverse of the die marriage was struck using Reverse die AG. This was the first of two uses of this die. The die was used immediately after to strike the very rare O-148 die marriage.
The quick identifier of this die marriage is the very obvious "Dotted Beak."
Find an 1827 with the Dotted Beak and you know instantly (without checking the other diagnostics in the books) that you have either the scarce O-143 or the very rare O-148.
After you check the O/P or Peterson books you learn that the O-148 (just as the O-131, the O-132 and the O-133) has a die line between the L and I in LIBERTY joining headband to curl at bottom and to cap above. (Check the Peterson book for a gread picture of this.)
If your coin has the Dotted Beak, but NOT the die line, then, sorry, your coin---just like mine---is "only" the O-143.
The 1827 O-111 die marriage. This is a very scarce die marriage rated R4.
This was the last 1827 dated Half Dollar struck in the calendar year 1827. (Three 1827 dated coins would be later struck in the calendar year 1828, but not immediately after the first of the year---a 1828 dated coin would be struck first.)
The obverse of this die marriage would be struck using Obverse die 7. This was the second and last use of this die. It was used immediately prior to strike the 1827 O-110.
The reverse of this die marriage would be struck using Reverse die J. This was the first use of this die. The die would be used one more time to strike the 1828 O-103 immediately after the calendar year began. This die is renamed 1828 Reverse die C for the 1828 CHB series.
This die marriage has one quick, easy identifier that can be seen on mid-grade circulated grade coins or higher. (For well circulated coins you will, of course, have to refer to the Overton/Parsley book for the other diagnostics.)
The identifier is found on the reverse of this coin at the base of the shield. This can be easily seen in the photo of my coin's reverse.
There is an open space at the bottom of stripe 3 in the shield. The first and third lines of the stripe extend beneath the base of the shield and there is an open space seen between them at the base of the stripe.
Photos of the 1827 O-111, R4: (the coin is ex Don Frederick and Jules Reiver collections)
Some of the easiest 1827 Id's just have simple title to remember. So maybe 49 single titles would make this diffficult year easier !
Additional 1827 O-111 Reverse J information:
T to I relationship, right side of T, left side of I. Note also that the top of "E" is lower than the "T" in States.
This Reverse die is also a very good example of one of the threeMaster Hubs used in making these dies of this year. (My Favorite !) If you look at the various posts on the 1827 thread, observe the scroll ends orientations with the A & M of America. Also the location of the right shield tip to the located position on the Eagle.
Thanks, my friend, for the close-up photos of the 1827 O-111.
I've figured out how to put red lines on my photos (I do it when I not basking in sloth.).
...but I just don't have the knack for obtaining these fancy, dancy, quality close-up photos. Oh well, I'll just keep playing with the Busties while you photographers play with your cameras. (Remember, every $500 I spend on upgrading my photography equipment is another Bustie that I canNOT buy---'cause the $500 is gone.)
*** OK. Where are all of the other photos from you other 1827 Bustie owners?
What do you mean by "Also the location of the right shield tip to the located position on the Eagle."?
===========================================
Here is my 1827 O-111:
Some diagnostics for 1827 O-111 R4:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. Large sharp stars are close to milling. Star 7 touches and points to center of dentil, and to junction of curl and headband. (Obverse shared with O-110.)
Reverse: Stripe 3 has an irregularity at its bottom. Dr. Glenn Peterson calls it a “key hole space”. Left side of “I” under right side of “T”.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Very Nice O-111 !!! Mozin.You asked "...What do you mean by "Also the location of the right shield tip to the located position on the Eagle.?" I will get back to you on this and will address it with some pictures...
At first glance one may think this was one of the overdate marriages! If referring back to my thread on the O-101, 102 & 103's, you will find many similarities within this group. It also helps in identifying the marriages.
Obverse 16, here is another of the workhorse 1827 obverse dies. But with this one, comes two Rarity 5 marriages and a Rarity 3+! Positively a Cherrypickers delight !
This so called Wide Date could confuse many.
Not too many diagnostics listed in the O/P book for this obverse.
Looking at the plates in the O/P book, 4th edition one will see the O-121, O-122 & O-123 all with Obverse 16 used in their marriages. The actual sequence here is 121, 123 & 122.
Obv. 16
1st state, when obverse 16 first came out it was a very clean and a well sunk die. Uniform in star spacing, clean date spacing and overall very appealing. A Key identifier could be the right upper serif of the 7 is under the first curl loop. But in this first state, I believe it received alot of use and lapped a couple of times, Stars and date start drawing. Some recutting in the stars on the right.
Rev. Q
T to I alignment, "I" centered under left side of "T".
The extension of the shield outline at top right.
Last "A" and Upper arrowhead firmly connected.
The third useage of Obverse 16 or 16-s3, O-122.
As in most second (O/P), (actual 3rd) state die useages, stars are drawn & lack of milling. Long drawn 7 as in the overdate, looking closely the remaining numerals show a large 1, small 8 that is high, the 2 being shortest in height with a thinned trunacation of the loop at the base. Star 7 points just above the junction of the curl and headband. Flatness in the high points of the hair. Nearly no traces of milling, stars are drawn up to the table of the edge where the dentiles were.
Rev. R
T to I alignment, center of "T", right side of "I".
There are four die defect lines on the left side of the Eagle in the field. Three under the head, one under the wing to the olive leaves.
This observation is to show the difference in the last "A" to Arrowhead, just making the attributation easier.
The second useage of Obverse 16 or 16-s2, O-123.
This is the Intermediate state, milling remains, stars drawn.
Rev. S
This is the second use of this reverse die, former 1825 O-113 Rev. L. It will have the drawing of the letters.
This has an easy identifier, the lump on top of the Scroll under "D" "ST". Unfinished top of first "S" in States. The right serif of "A" in States is higher than "T"'s.
The O/P book has "AME" close, for the 1825 notation.
The T to I alignment, "I" centered under left side of "T".
This observation again, is to show the difference in the last "A" to Arrowhead.
All in a Nutshell... Obverse 16. Wide date. Reverse Q. Spiked Shield with A/A touching. Reverse R. 4 die defect lines (in left side of Eagle). Reverse S. Die lump on Scroll. Equals 1 R-3+ & 2 R-5's.
The 1827 O-125 die marriage. This is a scarce, R3 die marriage.
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 18. This was the only use of this die.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse die T-s2. This was the second and last use of this die. The die was used previously to strike the rare O-124.
This is one quick identifier for this die marriage: There is a line at the T in LIBERTY that runs from the lower left base of the T through the right serif of the T and then into the cap. This can be seen in the photo of my coin.
I believe that my coin is one of the earlier strikes of this die marriage. Why?
The O/P book states in regarding to the obverse's milling: "Usually found with only light or partial milling and with stars drawn to the edge." Regarding the reverse's milling: "...there is little or no milling."
Specimens with full milling are Rare in this die marriage. Although my coin does NOT have the full milling on both sides, the milling is more complete than described above. ...and the stars have just begun to be drawn to the edge.
If any of you should find this coin with full milling on both sides, GRAB IT !!
Photos of the 1827 O-125, R3: (with a slight double profile)
Earlier this year, after studing the Reverse dies of 1827 using the The Great Collection of Edmerlr! or as I call it "The le Cute" Collection of LECBHD's.
I have found three different reverse hub Styles for the 1827's.
It is easy to distinguish between them...
# 1) I call this the old reverse master hub, I don't know when they produced it...(probably sometime in 1825-26)! Because I am working on just 1827 I found that there are 22 of them. Also to note here, there are 3 that may be second usage dies not previous listed as recycled.
This Style 1 refer to as "The Low Shield" variety.(Above) The difference is the distance between the upper right tip of the shield to the field, or the space of the eagles wing from the shield tip.
# 2) This is the NEW one, "The High Shield" (Above) not really new, it's been there for 180 years. I just noticed it as a difference of a (Little Thing)! The difference here is the shield is higher, you can see the closeness of the shield to the field is much less than (1). There are 9 of them.
# 3) This one reverse (F) (above) is the only one of it's kind for 1827, so it is a recycled die but different from 1 or 2. It is from an even earlier hub! Now this die is what brought me to find the new master hub because it's space is more than # 1's.
Ok, do we have any questions yet ?
A note or suggestion... Scan some reverses to compare... Use 1827 Rev.F, this is style # 3, or the one that I first noticed, O106 or O-144. The second one or style # 1, is a known die used in 1825-26... 1825 Rev.I...O-109 and O-110, same as 1827 Rev AC. 1825 Rev. L...O-113, same as 1827 Rev. S. 1826 Rev. C...O-103, same as 1827 Rev.C. 1826 Rev. N...O-114, same as 1827 Rev.B. I used 1827 Rev. C or O-103 or O-119.
Showing how and Overlay is done.
Final result.
Now for the Discovery Master Hub. Style # 2...High Shield When I first found it, it was from 1827 die AF O-142 If you really break it down it was from these coins , O106, O-142 and O-144.
Also look at the shield tip to the field, the old hub is the faint higher outline, Undercoin. Fore coin,This is the newer is the HIGH SHIELD type.
In my updated comparison I used Rev.Q or O-121. I did a new overlay with Rev. F and Q.
This is what I found.... The scroll has been dropped and shortened on the left and just a bit narrower. Left wing narrower and shorter on the top and bottom. Right wing narrower and shorter on the bottom. Olive leaves are changed. The eagles head and neck are thinner, notice the beak change.
The Red Arrows for old. Blue Arrows for new.
***One has to remember that when you look at these pictures, I work with these but they are around 12 inches in diameter. At that size the measurments are easier attained, these were resized for this thread. To avoid alot of frustration and headache trying this, remember that your image has to be the same size!
I had this all verified by Edgar Souders, along with his encouragment Thank You
Here a few more starting with the 1827 O-114. Diagnostics on the obverse (10) is a small die lump in the left branch of the Y in Liberty's headband and an additional hair strand touches the base of the R. The 7 in the date is recut. Reverse left side of I is under T and crossbars extend past edge of the shield (both sides).
Next up is the 1827, O-136. This is the early state before the top of the erroneously placed 8 was punched into the dentils by mistake. It shows nicely directly below and to the right of the 8 in date. On the obverse Stars 6 & 7 and 12 & 13 are close together. Reverse show I centered below right side of T and the left outline of the shield is THREE SEPARATE LINES.
Comments
Good observation on Slipgate's coin. It is O-129 R4-, not O-117. Thanks for providing us with the O-117, so I don't need to make the correction in our listing for missing marriages.
Some diagnostics for Square base 2 1827 O-108a R4-:
Obverse: Star 1 points to center of dentil. There is a die dot just above the lower inner point of star 1. (Obverse is LDS of O-107.)
Reverse: This specimen is from the second marriage of these two dies, so the die dots beneath “IT” are not present, as they would be on the first marriage. This reverse was paired with 1828 O-101 obverse, and then returned for the second marriage of 1827 O-108a. This specimen shows a die break lump in the upper part of “F”. Most of the stripe lines extend too far downwards, to feathers and claw. Left sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
OKAY THIS IS ANOTHER ONE OF THE INFAMOUS 1827's THAT ARE REALLY TOUGH TO ATTRIBUTE.
So here we go. This is the O-139 The reverse can be attributed as V by noting the I in PLURIBUS has a little hortizonal die line about mid section. Look real close because it is difficult to see.
Now that we have the V reverse we have to decide if it is the O-128 or the O-139 obverse. Not easy as the star positions are almost identical. So here we go the R. Zornes way. Star 13 on the O-128 is pointing under the main lower curl. The O-139 is pointing higher up on the lower curl.
That's it. No wonder the 1827's are the easiest to cherry pick but the most difficult to attribute. Better have your book with you or have a photographic memory.
Some diagnostics for 1827 O-128 R4-:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower edge of dentil. Star 7 points between dentils, and to upper half of the headband. Note the position of Star 13, as BiddlesBank notes, points lower on the curl than on O-139. (Obverse shared with O-129 & O-130.)
Reverse: A die line shows at middle of the “I” in the scroll. “E” in “STATES” is recut, showing at top. Lines 1 and 3 of stripe 1, and line 3 of stripe 6, extend too far upwards. “I” centered under left side of “T”.
Thank you Mozin
You are always gracious to a person when posting to the bust half threads. It's a good incentive to post. Might be the only compliment a person gets all day long.
<< <i>
JoeLewis,
Just noticed your coin was not attributed. It appears to me to be 1827 O-106 R2. This marriage was posted earlier by MikeKing and fengk. You might want to compare yours with theirs, just to make sure.
Remember everyone, we want all the duplicate marriage postings we can get.
I just got it today!
1827, O-140 square base 2
some diags for this variety:
Obv.
1) the 2 has been recut at the upper curl
2) A very pronounced "block" chin.
Rev.
1) AA is less than 1/4 mm (distance of top arrow to last A of America)
2) Center bar of stripe 3 extends to crossbar 5
3) Line 3 of stripe 1 extends to crossbar 4.
(I also notice on mine that Line 1 and 2 of stripe 1 extend to crossbar 2.)
Nice R4+ you have. Must have cost you a hefty premium, unless it was a cherry.
I wouldn't call it a cherry - maybe a plum.
I did get it for less than I expected for an R4+, but it
still had a pretty hefty premium over the bid/ask for an XF-45.
As soon as I saw it in the dealer's case I knew it was mine. I was hoping he would lower the price and I was trying very hard not to show any enthusiasm. I didn't want him to read my body language and realise that I "had to have this coin!"
Fortunately he lowered the price, I bought the coin, I carried it home securely in my briefcase, and I prompty---upon arriving home---gave it freedom by removing it from its NGC AU-58 plastic coffin.
The obverse die was used for the third and final time to strike this die marriage. First it was used on the O-101, then on the O-102 and finally on the O-103. But the Mint did not strike these coins in an uninterrupted sequence. The Mint had as much trouble striking 1827's as I did finding this specific 1827 DM.
Let me explain. It appears the Mint overdated an 1826 dated die (what we call obv. die 1) to use while waiting for the new 1827 dated dies to be completed. The first coin that was struck with the 1827 date was the 1827/6 using obv. die 1 and rev. die A. It was the second and last use of rev. die A---it was previously used to strike the 1826 O-120. (It was called rev. die R in 1826)
After some use, reverse die A fails. Obv. die 1 is starting to show some wear, but it is still usable. So the Mint combines a new reverse die with obverse die 1. The Mint now begins to strike 1827/6 O-102 using obv. die 1-s2 (renamed because of the stage of die wear) and new reverse die B.
After striking the O-102, something happens to obv. die 1-s2. It needs to be removed from the screw press and reworked, retooled, lapped, whatever (saved for a "rainy day?"). The Mint cannot stop production. The new 1827 dated obverse dies are not ready. What to do?
The coiner decides to combine an old 1826 obverse die (Obv. die 9-s2, previously used on the 1826 O-113) with the 1827 reverse die B (we call it rev. die N in the 1826 series) The Mint now begins to strike the 1826 O-114 even though it is the calendar year 1827.
The dies for the 1826 O-114 start to wear. A 1827 dated die is finally ready. Coin production cannot stop. Both of the 1826 O-114 dies are removed from the screw press. The brand new 1827 dated obverse die is installed (obv. die 14) with along with a new reverse die.
The Mint now begins to strike the first NON-OVERDATE 1827 coin. It is the O-118 using obv. die 14 and rev. die O.
Eventually reverse die O fails. Production cannot stop. A new reverse die is installed. The Mint now begins to strike the 1827 O-119 using obv. die 14-s2 (renamed for the stage of die wear) with rev. die C.
Darn! As they were striking the O-119, obverse die 14-s2 (already worn from its previous use on the O-118) fails. Reverse die C is still in good shape. There are no new 1827 dated dies ready. Production cannot stop. What to do?
The Coiner decides that he has only one option. He has to pull the old 1827/6 overdated obverse die 1-s2 out of storage. You know, the one he saved for a "rainy day." This worn die was previously used to strike the O-101 and then the O-102. "It sill has some use in it," the Coiner thinks to himself.
The Mint begins to strike the 1827/6 O-103 using obv. die 1-s3 (renamed for its stage of die wear) and reverse C. The rev. die C is still in the screw press---afterall it was being used previously on the 1827 O-119.
The 1827/6 O-103 has now been born.
The O-103 can be easily confused with the O-101 and O-102. Remember, they have the same obverse die.
The O/P book lists all of the neat reverse diagnostic differences between these die marriages. The key ones to look for on the O-103 is the recut upright of the 5 (visible in my photo) and the multiple lines beneath the shield between gules 3, 4, and 5. (I am not sure if you can see this in my photo, but there is a great picture of this in Peterson's book.)
SIDENOTE: After striking the 1827/6 O-103 the Mint began to strike the rare 1826 O-103. I guess obverse die 1-s3 didn't last THAT LONG. Is this why the 1827 O-103 is a R4 and not a R1, R2, or R3? Myself, and many others, find it fascinating to relate Emission Order with die usage and wear with rarity ratings. Give it a try.
Photos of the O-103, R4:
This is to remind us that we all may want ONLY coins with eye appeal in our collection.
...but sometimes we have to bend the rules and eye appeal becomes not as important.
Here is the coin:
The 1827 O-137 die marriage.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage (for cherrypicking purposes):
(1) On the obverse, stars 12 and 13 are close together.
(2) On the reverse the I is far left of the T.
(3) On the reverse there are extra feathers on the right of the right wing
The obverse was struck using obverse die 23, which was used immediately prior on the 1827 O-136.
The reverse was struck using reverse die AC, which was used two years earlier to strike the 1825 O-110 and the 1825 O-109. In 1825 the reverse die was named rev. die I.
Photos of the 1827 O-137, R6:
I would like to discuss the specfic coin pictured later, but first let's talk about the dies and the diagnostics of this die marriage.
The O-124 is one of the those Busties whose rarity falls on the threshold between "rare" and "very rare." The Bust Half Nut Club has refined the O-124's rarity to a R5+. Translated into numbers, this means that there are 31 to 46 specimens estimated to still exist.
The obverse die used to strike this die marriage was Obverse die 17. This was the second usage of this die. The die was used immediately prior to strike the O-135. (Quick aside: The O/P books state that O-135 was struck with Obv. die 22. This is incorrect. It was struck with Obv. die 17.)
Obverse die 17 was in bad shape while striking the last of the O-135's. Late die states of that die marriage showed light milling and the stars drawn to the edge. The die was in this condition when it was combined with a new reverse die to strike the O-124.
The Star 7 diagnostic for the O-124 in the O/P says "S7X-JCHb." The "X" stands for not clear or unknown. You simply have to look at the Star 7 diagnostic for the O-135 to know that they both should read "S7B-JCHb."
Reverse die T was used to strike the O-124. This was the first usage of this die. After striking the O-124, this die was used immediately after to strike the scarce 1827 O-125 die marriage.
The quick identifiers for this die marriage can both be seen on the coin pictured without any blow-ups of the photos. (For a double-check to confirm what you are looking for, refer to Peterson's "The Ultimate Guide...")
(1) On the obverse there is a thin line resembling a hair just beneath the I in LIBERTY. (This is on the O-124 and O-135.)
(2) On the reverse the middle line of the fourth stripe extends below the shield. This is very clear on the photo. (O-125 also has this)
****
I purchased the pictured coin from a dealer who specializes in Bust Halves. He attributed the coin as the Late Die State (O-124a, R5+). The O/P book clearly states in speaking about the O-124a's obverse: "...no milling remains." My coin has a trace of milling on the obverse---therefore I have always called mine the O-124, R5+.
The coin in the photo is a beautiful example of this die marriage. ...BUT IT HAS A FLAW.
On the obverse there is a tiny void at the neck. (Those of you with Herrman's AMBPR will have no problem finding this coin listed because of the "void.") I have no idea what caused this "void." I would like to think that this "void" is merely a planchet defect. Therefore this is how the coin was struck and left the Mint. If this were the case, this would be another way of saying: "This is NOT a problem coin."
Or, I would like to think of something historically romantic: Did Daniel Boone, bored in the Kentucky winter, take his knife and drill a small void in the coin while waiting for the bears to come out of hibernation? Nope. Didn't happen. Boone died in 1820. (Ok, maybe it was Davey Crockett's knife?)
Oh well, put a tiny piece of a Post-it Note over the void and the coin looks perfect. It's a R5+ afterall. Give me a break !!! Considering of the depth of my tiny coin purchasing budget, who cares?
Any comments or insight regarding the "void" from Mozin, or Slumlord, or Fever, or others would be warmly appreciated.
Photos of the 1827 O-124, R5+:
I think your 1827 O-124 has either a planchet void, or it could be a delaminated planchet. If it was a plan void, it would have been a pretty deep void, or the metal flow would have covered it. If the coin was struck, and sometime later, a piece fell off the coin because of a lamination defect, I think this would be the result seen in your coin.
I doubt the coin could have been damaged after it was minted, because the void looks too rough, not smooth like from a poke. I am no expert on these defects.
This is one of those things where an up close and personal examination would likely tell us a better story of what was/is going on. Say, 50X and then 100X under a good stereomicroscope. You SHOULD be able to spot the characteristics of a lamination flake at this higher power.
Ed, you could always drill a hole thru it the rest of the way and wear it as a necklace! Just kidding!
Edgar
I find it very hard (addicted as I am to the LECBH) to sit on my hands and wait. …so I thought I would post a “repeater.”
The repeater: OKbustchaser posted the 1827 O-116 die marriage on page two of this Thread.
This is one of my favorite 1827 die marriages, so I thought you might like to see both the O-116 Early Die State and its Late Die State. What made this one of my favorite DM’s of the 1827’s is that finally, finally I found an example of the “a model” LDS for my collection. All right, I confess, it really is the EDS of the LDS, but I settled. Does this sound confusing? I will explain this later just before the O-116a’s photos.
The 1827 O-116 die marriage was struck using Obverse die 12 and Reverse die E. This was the only use of these dies. The obverse die broke up. We do not know why the reverse die was not used on another die marriage.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) The chin has been retooled to a square rather than a rounded appearance. (Is it just me, or do some of the other chins have "sort of" a square appearance?)
(2) The mouth is open.
(3) On the reverse the flag of the 5 has been recut. It appears to have a double tip at the end. (This is also a diagnostic for the O-105.)
(4) There are lumps caused by die rusting around ES O, under A3 and on the field under the eagle's head. These are usually only visible on higher grade specimens.
This die marriage is listed as a R5 for both die states in the O/P book. The Bust Half Nut Club revised the rarity down to a R4+ in 2004.
Photos of the 1827 O-116, R4+:
*****************
The Late Die State of the 1827 O-116 die marriage (O-116a):
The only difference between the EDS and the LDS is an obverse die crack from the edge through the upper points of star two to the neck.
The coin that I have pictured shows that this die crack---in its entirety---did not happen overnight. The die crack and the crack "grew" through die usage. It started from the edge and eventually reached the Portrait's neck.
The LDS that I found is an Early Die State. That is, the die crack comes from the edge, goes through the upper points of star two and stops in the field. In total, it progresses almost 1/2 of the way from the edge into the field. You can see it in the photo.
NOTE: Technically this is an Intermediate Die State because the die crack does not extend exactly as described in the O/P book. In this case, if you have the IDS, is it an O-116 or an O-116a? The rule is that if both the EDS and the LDS have the same rarity rating, then the coin can be called either number. I call mine the O-116a. (If the rarity ratings were different, then the IDS is called the Overton die state number of the lowest rated of the two die states.)
Photo of the 1827 O-116a, R4+:
As you all know, of the 49 1827 die marriages, these are the only 2 which have the Curled Base 2.
The O-146 is rarity rated as R2. R2 is defined as “slightly uncommon.” This means, per the O/P book, that somewhere between 500 to 1,000 specimens are thought to exist.
The O-147 is rarity rated as R4. R4 is defined as “very scarce.” The Overton/Parsley book rarity rates this die marriage as a R4. R4 is, per the O/P book, is somewhere between 81 to 200 specimens are thought to exist.
The R4 rating was refined by The Bust Half Nut Club a few years ago to divide the R4’s into three groups: The R4-, the R4, and the R4+. This revision was made after careful research. R4 is now defined to mean 121 to 160 specimens are estimated to exist.
The rarity estimates of the Curl Base 2’s are inflated slightly by Edgar Souders in BHF II. He estimates that at the very most there are “…no more than 1,500 examples extant in all of numismatics" of both die marriages combined. Compare this with the surviving number of all of the 1827’s. 1,500 is not very many for two die marriages. One of which is considered closer to “common” than “rare.”
If you are looking for ONLY ONE Curled Base 2 for your collection or if you, for some reason, want to hoard a dozen or so of them for an investment, I suggest you invest (most of) your money in the rarer O-147, R4 die marriage.
Learn how to tell the difference without the aid of the Overton/Parsley book. …and with minimal memory.
Situation: On eBay or at a coin show you find an 1827 with a Curl Base 2. You look at the reverse of the coin.
Without the O/P book can you instantly identify the O-147, R4?
Following are photos of the reverses of both die marriages. One is pictured first, then the other.
Which one is the O-147? (Yes, one reverse is “prettier” than the other, but this is not a hint.)
Can you tell which one is the rarer one?
Don't read down just yet.
Go back and look at the photos.
I are you sure you know which one is the R4 coin?
Yes.
OK. Now you can read below:
I have a little ditty I memorized. A word/memory trick, if you will. This comes in handy at coin shows and/or when I am trolling eBay looking for a R4 coin at a R2 price.
It is: “Remember the right one not the wrong one.”
In plain English it means: On the O-147, R4 the I is on the RIGHT side of the T. On the O-146, R2 the I is towards the LEFT side of the T.
Some diagnostics for 1827 O-110 R4-:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. Large sharp stars are close to milling. Star 7 touches and points to center of dentil, and to junction of curl and headband. (Obverse shared with O-111.)
Reverse: The first two lines of the first three stripes are short at the bottom shield margin, forming a stair-step pattern. Left side of “I” is under the right side of “T”. (Reverse shared with O-109.)
This is one of the real toughies of the 1827's. The Bust Half Nut Club has refined the DM's rarity rating to R5+. R5+ denotes that 31 to 46 specimens are estimated to still exist.
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 28. This is the second use of this die. The die was used earlier in the year to strike the rare O-145 die marriage.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse die F. This is the second use of this die. The die was used earlier in the year to strike the slightly uncommon O-106 die marriage.
On circulated specimens this can be a difficult die marriage to attribute.
The quick identifiers for this marriage may be worn away or almost indistinguishable. If you think you may have this die marriage, grab the O/P book, check everything two or three times.
Quick identifiers:
(1) On the obverse there is a small tine in front of the base of the bust. (This may not show in my photo. Refer to the Peterson book for a clear photo of this.) This identifier is also on the rare O-145. This is unique to these two DM's.
(2) On the reverse several lines of the 4th stripe extend up into the lower two crossbars. The third line of the 5th stripe extends up two crossbars. This is also true of the O-106. (Refer to Peterson for clear photos.)
NOTE: If you think you have the O-106, but hope it really is the rare O-144, open the O/P book and look at the photos of the two die marriages. Notice the position of the 7 in comparison to the lower curls above it. The difference between the two die marriages becomes very obvious when you compare these two photos in the book.
Photos of the 1827 O-144, R5+:
The same stands true with the 1827 O-149.
In the Leaman - Gunnet Emmission Sequence they make this point.
With the use of Obverse 15, which O-120 and O-149 commonly share.
The qualifing characteristics of this obverse is a series of heavy die scratches
which runs along the milling and below the Bust. (pic)
The O-120 comes in with an "a" model state with die cracks running under
the date and upward on both sides.
The closer spacing of indivdual stars,
Left side: 5 & 6 closer, 7 futher slightly rotated and dropped.
Right side: 9 & 10 closer.
Another tell-tale is the die scratch under star 13. (pic) for O-120a.
So in this, tells us the O-149 came first!
But this is only the first half of a Truer picture...
Now we have Reverse Die K which is shared with two other marriages in 1827,
O-112 using 8K and O-113 using 9K.
At this point we are looking at properties of four different marriage possibilities.
And yes, 1827 is a Cherry Pickers Year !
Since Rev. K is now in it's final use or S-3 you will notice the lack of milling and
the drawn state of the die.
With the reverse striking sequence of O-113, O-112 and O-149.
Adding some points here, are die clash that has been polished away from O-112.
The general diagnostics here are the first "S" in States recut, as seen in the upper loop
and a small spike at the base. (pic)
"A T" in States touch at the bottom. (pic)
The T to I alignment is right side / left side. (pic)
The stripes in the shield are evident, but only in higher grades.
This last item is an engraver tool error at the inside base of the shield. (pic)
This is not the one Overton lists.
An additional added here is the "E" in States is tilted slightly to the right
with lower left serif higher than the serif of "T".
I figured this would be one way to get the Very Rare 1827 O-149 R-8 (3 known) on the board.
The facsimile of the O-149 photograph but correct diagnostics.
This also covers the last four die marriages in the Leaman - Gunnet Emmission Sequence for 1827.
Attributing the 1827 die marriages is fun and easy...
What a neat way to present the 1827 O-149 die marriage that is so rare that only 3 people on the whole planet have one.
To summarize:
Obverse die 15 which was also used on the O-120.
Reverse die K which was also used on the O-112 and O-113.
Combine an obverse of an O-120 together with the reverse of either the O-112 or O-113.
...then you sprinkle in a few minor diagnostic differences.
Presto, you have an O-149 !!!!
Too simple. Why didn't I think of this?
(Don't tell the counterfeitors. They'll be cutting an O-120 in half and gluing it to half of an O-112 or O-113. Then they will put it on eBay---guaranteeing it to be original. Well. ...each half is original.)
Regards,
Ed
Wow! What a wonderful first post on CU.
Welcome to the forum, and to our Lettered Edge Capped Bust Half Dollar series. Feel free to comment in any of our mint year threads. You are contributing member 117.
Capped Bust Half Dollar series
I feel like the proud owner of the 1827 O-149 R8, after you showed us how to piece together my O-112 and O-120.
I mean it too!
I am part of your collection.
As you know I have been working on the 1827 dies & marriages for over a year now.
I will be Glad to lend my input into any questions.
SomeGuyinMichigan
1827 O-139 Condition Census
That is what I was hoping for.
I like details, not guesses!
Here's one for you, How many Master Hubs were used on the reverses of 1827?
Not including the New one I discovered eariler this year!
How do I get rid of this link under here?
From someone who is really enjoying learning about this series, between you, Ed, Mozin, slumlord, Nysoto, Edgar, BB (while he was here
Thanks just doesn't cut it....
Please continue to help us newer CBH guys out, we sure do appreciate the insight.
I can honestly say that since Mozin started this series, I am impressed by you guys EVERY DAY.
<< <i>...
How do I get rid of this link under here? >>
I think you can go to "profile" at the upper right of any page. Then go way down to "signature", and erase what is in the box.
Edmerlr is away from the forum this weekend.
O-101, 102 & 103.
Since we are working on threads to possibly get all the die marriages of the Letter Edge Capped Bust Half Dollars, this one being of 1827.
The specifics are important.
A Collector looking at their coin and trying to attribute it via a book in print will have questions because the "little things" are left out !
I personally like the "little things", as it makes attribution an easier task.
Putting together this information takes experience, time and patience.
For me, starting with the reverse, as there is more there...
so more human errors occured.
1827 THE OVERDATE
Obverse die 1, this is one of 3 workhorse dies of 1827.
As mentioned earlier by "edmerlr" of (Monday April 16, 2007 11:31 AM ),
the rational evolution of these marriages from the die pairings.
Obv.1 (O-101) starts out as a 1826 obverse die (this die may have been shelved because of the erroneous 6 placement, wide and high of the 182)
and then overdated to 1827.
When looking at the date you see a large 7 with a bubulous base.
On early strikes the evident underlying 6 strongly shows to the right side and above the top .
The spacing above the 1 and the drapery is about 2 to 1 as to the milling or dentiles.
The spacing of the stars is also noticeable.
The left side 5 & 6 the closest, 6 & 7 the farthest.
On the right side the gap between 9 & 10.
Stars & hair are full as well as the milling.
Obv.1-s2 (O-102) This next stage of obverse 1, now shows a flattening of the hair details, as in the curl above the eye and ear and behind the "Y" in Liberty.
Milling details are lacking and the star points are now drawing to the rim.
The movement of the base of the 7 now procedes.
Obv. 1-s3 (O-103) The final stage of erosion!
Sometime in this stage the dies clashed, the die clash marks under the ear
which are the shield stripes from the reverse are now a prominent feature.
The long drawn out 7 to the coins edge.
The flattened non-detailed milling, and star points also extend to the edge.
Now for the reverses!
Rev. A as before 1826 rev. die R.
The "C" in America is clipped on the lower back side.
T to I alignment, left sides inline.
***(This alignment is very important when ID'ing reverses)
Die cracks (2) running around from arrow points to "U" in United to STATE of States.
Die scratch under right wing, lighter on some do to lapping.
"C" in Cents recut.
Rev. B, Recycled 1826 rev. die N. or (Apostrophe A)
Apostrophe upper left side of last "A" in America.
T to I alignment, center of T, left side of I.
Last "S" in States higher than the other letters.
The reason I don't mention the AM being joined, is that the three reverses have that in common.
Rev. A is very close, B touches & C is very close.
Rev. C
This is one of my discoveries, there is a notch in the Eagle's wing
at the base of the neck, thus "Notched Wing" (easy ID).
T to I alignment, center of T, right side of I.
First "T" in States lower than adjacent letters.
The 5 is recut on the back of the upright.
Also notice a somewhat scalloped effect at the top of the scroll under STATES.
Also used on the O-119.
So with this information you can now easily tell the difference between
the commons and the R- 4 Cherrypick !
But any all original high grade Overdate is a Cherrypick in itself...
Nice descriptions and pictures on the 1827/6 CBHs.
Sadly, the only Busties I have with any of the obverses or reverses you describe, are my 1827/6 O-102s.
What do you have in 1827?
B.T.W. edmerlr is on his Honeymoon part 2 !
The more the merrier.
I guess we'll find out Monday when he's back !
It would have be an easy ID on the obverse had it been in production.
1826 Far 6.
...regarding the date close-ups of the three 1827/6's you posted. To my old, far-sighted, senior eyes, the upturn in the top curl of the 2 in the RIGHT photo seems to be pointing in a different direction.
Am I seeing things?
Ed
My third picture does appear to have the upper curl of the 2 pointing differently than the first two pictured 2s. I think it is just a picture difference that makes the two look different. The third coin is rotated in the holder, so the scanner lighting caught the 2 at a different angle.
This is one of two "Dotted Beak" 1827 die marriages. The other Dotted Beak DM is the very rare O-148, R6+.
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 27. This was the second and last use of this die. The die was used immediately prior to strike the scarce O-142 die marriage.
The reverse of the die marriage was struck using Reverse die AG. This was the first of two uses of this die. The die was used immediately after to strike the very rare O-148 die marriage.
The quick identifier of this die marriage is the very obvious "Dotted Beak."
Find an 1827 with the Dotted Beak and you know instantly (without checking the other diagnostics in the books) that you have either the scarce O-143 or the very rare O-148.
After you check the O/P or Peterson books you learn that the O-148 (just as the O-131, the O-132 and the O-133) has a die line between the L and I in LIBERTY joining headband to curl at bottom and to cap above. (Check the Peterson book for a gread picture of this.)
If your coin has the Dotted Beak, but NOT the die line, then, sorry, your coin---just like mine---is "only" the O-143.
Photos of the 1827 O-143, R3:
This was the last 1827 dated Half Dollar struck in the calendar year 1827. (Three 1827 dated coins would be later struck in the calendar year 1828, but not immediately after the first of the year---a 1828 dated coin would be struck first.)
The obverse of this die marriage would be struck using Obverse die 7. This was the second and last use of this die. It was used immediately prior to strike the 1827 O-110.
The reverse of this die marriage would be struck using Reverse die J. This was the first use of this die. The die would be used one more time to strike the 1828 O-103 immediately after the calendar year began. This die is renamed 1828 Reverse die C for the 1828 CHB series.
This die marriage has one quick, easy identifier that can be seen on mid-grade circulated grade coins or higher. (For well circulated coins you will, of course, have to refer to the Overton/Parsley book for the other diagnostics.)
The identifier is found on the reverse of this coin at the base of the shield. This can be easily seen in the photo of my coin's reverse.
There is an open space at the bottom of stripe 3 in the shield. The first and third lines of the stripe extend beneath the base of the shield and there is an open space seen between them at the base of the stripe.
Photos of the 1827 O-111, R4: (the coin is ex Don Frederick and Jules Reiver collections)
Some of the easiest 1827 Id's just have simple title to remember.
So maybe 49 single titles would make this diffficult year easier !
Additional 1827 O-111 Reverse J information:
T to I relationship, right side of T, left side of I.
Note also that the top of "E" is lower than the "T" in States.
This Reverse die is also a very good example of one of the three Master Hubs used in making these dies of this year. (My Favorite !)
If you look at the various posts on the 1827 thread, observe the scroll ends orientations
with the A & M of America.
Also the location of the right shield tip to the located position on the Eagle.
"the more you observe the more you see..."
Thanks, my friend, for the close-up photos of the 1827 O-111.
I've figured out how to put red lines on my photos (I do it when I not basking in sloth.).
...but I just don't have the knack for obtaining these fancy, dancy, quality close-up photos. Oh well, I'll just keep playing with the Busties while you photographers play with your cameras. (Remember, every $500 I spend on upgrading my photography equipment is another Bustie that I canNOT buy---'cause the $500 is gone.)
***
OK. Where are all of the other photos from you other 1827 Bustie owners?
bye,
Ed
What do you mean by "Also the location of the right shield tip to the located position on the Eagle."?
===========================================
Here is my 1827 O-111:
Some diagnostics for 1827 O-111 R4:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. Large sharp stars are close to milling. Star 7 touches and points to center of dentil, and to junction of curl and headband. (Obverse shared with O-110.)
Reverse: Stripe 3 has an irregularity at its bottom. Dr. Glenn Peterson calls it a “key hole space”. Left side of “I” under right side of “T”.
I will get back to you on this and will address it with some pictures...
1827 O-121 R-3+
1827 O-122 R-5
1827 O-123 R-5
At first glance one may think this was one of the overdate marriages!
If referring back to my thread on the O-101, 102 & 103's, you will find
many similarities within this group.
It also helps in identifying the marriages.
Obverse 16, here is another of the workhorse 1827 obverse dies.
But with this one, comes two Rarity 5 marriages and a Rarity 3+!
Positively a Cherrypickers delight !
This so called Wide Date could confuse many.
Not too many diagnostics listed in the O/P book for this obverse.
Looking at the plates in the O/P book, 4th edition one will see the O-121, O-122 & O-123
all with Obverse 16 used in their marriages.
The actual sequence here is 121, 123 & 122.
Obv. 16
1st state, when obverse 16 first came out it was a very clean and a well sunk die.
Uniform in star spacing, clean date spacing and overall very appealing.
A Key identifier could be the right upper serif of the 7 is under the first curl loop.
But in this first state, I believe it received alot of use and lapped a couple of times,
Stars and date start drawing.
Some recutting in the stars on the right.
Rev. Q
T to I alignment, "I" centered under left side of "T".
The extension of the shield outline at top right.
Last "A" and Upper arrowhead firmly connected.
The third useage of Obverse 16 or 16-s3, O-122.
As in most second (O/P), (actual 3rd) state die useages, stars are drawn & lack of milling.
Long drawn 7 as in the overdate, looking closely the remaining numerals show a large 1,
small 8 that is high, the 2 being shortest in height with a thinned trunacation of the loop at the base.
Star 7 points just above the junction of the curl and headband.
Flatness in the high points of the hair.
Nearly no traces of milling, stars are drawn up to the table of the edge where the dentiles were.
Rev. R
T to I alignment, center of "T", right side of "I".
There are four die defect lines on the left side of the Eagle in the field.
Three under the head, one under the wing to the olive leaves.
This observation is to show the difference in the last "A" to Arrowhead, just making the attributation easier.
The second useage of Obverse 16 or 16-s2, O-123.
This is the Intermediate state, milling remains, stars drawn.
Rev. S
This is the second use of this reverse die, former 1825 O-113 Rev. L.
It will have the drawing of the letters.
This has an easy identifier, the lump on top of the Scroll under "D" "ST".
Unfinished top of first "S" in States.
The right serif of "A" in States is higher than "T"'s.
The O/P book has "AME" close, for the 1825 notation.
The T to I alignment, "I" centered under left side of "T".
This observation again, is to show the difference in the last "A" to Arrowhead.
All in a Nutshell...
Obverse 16. Wide date.
Reverse Q. Spiked Shield with A/A touching.
Reverse R. 4 die defect lines (in left side of Eagle).
Reverse S. Die lump on Scroll.
Equals 1 R-3+ & 2 R-5's.
Mr. M.C., as usual, brilliant presentations from you.
Please don't stop now.
From: edmerlr aka Mr. Ed le Cute
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 18. This was the only use of this die.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse die T-s2. This was the second and last use of this die. The die was used previously to strike the rare O-124.
This is one quick identifier for this die marriage: There is a line at the T in LIBERTY that runs from the lower left base of the T through the right serif of the T and then into the cap. This can be seen in the photo of my coin.
I believe that my coin is one of the earlier strikes of this die marriage. Why?
The O/P book states in regarding to the obverse's milling: "Usually found with only light or partial milling and with stars drawn to the edge." Regarding the reverse's milling: "...there is little or no milling."
Specimens with full milling are Rare in this die marriage. Although my coin does NOT have the full milling on both sides, the milling is more complete than described above. ...and the stars have just begun to be drawn to the edge.
If any of you should find this coin with full milling on both sides, GRAB IT !!
Photos of the 1827 O-125, R3: (with a slight double profile)
Earlier this year, after studing the Reverse dies of 1827 using the The Great Collection of Edmerlr! or as I call it "The le Cute" Collection of LECBHD's.
I have found three different reverse hub Styles for the 1827's.
It is easy to distinguish between them...
# 1) I call this the old reverse master hub, I don't know when they
produced it...(probably sometime in 1825-26)!
Because I am working on just 1827 I found that
there are 22 of them. Also to note here, there are 3 that may be
second usage dies not previous listed as recycled.
This Style 1 refer to as "The Low Shield" variety.(Above)
The difference is the distance between the upper right tip of the
shield to the field, or the space of the eagles wing from the shield tip.
# 2) This is the NEW one, "The High Shield" (Above) not really new, it's been there for 180
years.
I just noticed it as a difference of a (Little Thing)!
The difference here is the shield is higher, you can see the
closeness of the shield to the field is much less than (1).
There are 9 of them.
# 3) This one reverse (F) (above) is the only one of it's kind for 1827, so it
is a recycled die but different from 1 or 2.
It is from an even earlier hub!
Now this die is what brought me to find the new master hub because
it's space is more than # 1's.
Ok, do we have any questions yet ?
A note or suggestion...
Scan some reverses to compare...
Use 1827 Rev.F, this is style # 3, or the one that I first noticed,
O106 or O-144.
The second one or style # 1, is a known die used in 1825-26...
1825 Rev.I...O-109 and O-110, same as 1827 Rev AC.
1825 Rev. L...O-113, same as 1827 Rev. S.
1826 Rev. C...O-103, same as 1827 Rev.C.
1826 Rev. N...O-114, same as 1827 Rev.B.
I used 1827 Rev. C or O-103 or O-119.
Showing how and Overlay is done.
Final result.
Now for the Discovery Master Hub.
Style # 2...High Shield
When I first found it, it was from 1827 die AF O-142
If you really break it down it was from these coins ,
O106, O-142 and O-144.
Also look at the shield tip to the field, the old hub is the faint higher outline, Undercoin.
Fore coin,This is the newer is the HIGH SHIELD type.
In my updated comparison I used Rev.Q or O-121.
I did a new overlay with Rev. F and Q.
This is what I found....
The scroll has been dropped and shortened on the left and just a bit narrower.
Left wing narrower and shorter on the top and bottom.
Right wing narrower and shorter on the bottom.
Olive leaves are changed.
The eagles head and neck are thinner, notice the beak change.
The Red Arrows for old.
Blue Arrows for new.
***One has to remember that when you look at these pictures,
I work with these but they are around 12 inches in diameter.
At that size the measurments are easier attained, these were resized for this thread.
To avoid alot of frustration and headache trying this, remember that your image has to be the same size!
I had this all verified by Edgar Souders, along with his encouragment
Thank You
Edgar
Edgar