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Major seated coinage dealer refuses to sell me his coins

I won't mention his name, but he is the author of one of the major reference books for seated coins.

I emailed him wanting to buy some semi-key seated quarters. I gave him a list of criteria that I was looking for in the coin (rim bumps, scratches etc...)

He responds telling me that I would be better off buying at shows, because it is easier to just to hand the coin back rather than having to ship it back.

I then respond saying that I will relax my standards because the date is so hard to find in any grade, and I made a promise not to return the coin. I told him I would send a money order when he confirmed availability of the coin. (It was an 1868-s quarter)

He then responds that none of his 68-s quarters meet my requirements, and that I shouldn't relax my standards. He added that when he was a collector, he was as picky as me, and never bought via mail order.


So now I am out of luck, and it appears he won't sell me any of his coins because I am too picky, even thought I gave him a guarantee I would not return any of the coins.

Did I do something wrong here?
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Comments

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 25,169 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You appear to have tagged yourself as being more potential trouble than your business would be worth.
    All glory is fleeting.
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    LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    If none of his coins meet your standards, I don't see the issue.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
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    It sounds like great advice from him.
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    CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,343 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If none of his coins meet your standards, I don't see the issue. >>

    image Your dealer seems to have done the right thing here. Kudos to him.
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    OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 5,567 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't see where either of you did anything at all wrong. I would be apreciative of a seller who wouldn't sell me a coin that he knew wouldn't fit my collection--whether I was willing to settle for it or not. I wish more dealers would take this approach rather than churning their clients collections.
    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
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    BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    On the other hand, the dealers merchandise may be marginal and

    would not pass , what appears to be,your reasonable standards.

    I have had really good dealers, call me up to discuss a coin in great detail

    before they send it to me. You may be well served not dealing with this

    person as the relationship does not sound like it would be a pleasant one.

    Big reputations do not aways translate ,into good and honorable dealers.

    Some big shots can talk the talk, but they can not walk the walk.
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
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    BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    it's difficult to please a King

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

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    RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    Refreshing candor from this dealer.

    Russ, NCNE
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    MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sounds like a good dealer with a good eye. If I were you, I'd send him my want list and ask him to call me whenever he finds something that he thinks is nice enough for me. He may only call you once a year, but that's better than wasting everyone's time and money.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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    BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    I believe what this dealer is really saying is that he carries

    only marginal, second rate cr*p. You folks appear much too

    accepting, of sheer rudeness for candor.
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 11,036 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sometimes being too picky is not good.
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    BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    Being picky and willing to pay for quality,

    means the difference, in the long run, between

    making money and losing money. Much as in real estate,

    with coins it is always, quality, quality and quality!!!!!
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
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    BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I mean, you're the King! the King of Coins!!

    you probably wear velvet robes and a crown, right?

    everyone knows it's tough to please a King in his own Court

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

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    MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I believe what this dealer is really saying is that he carries

    only marginal, second rate cr*p.


    Bear - It sounds like you have no idea how difficult it is to find perfect circ 1868-S quarters. I'll bet that in the last 30 years I haven't seen half a dozen I'd want in my own collection, if I collected the series.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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    TomBTomB Posts: 22,960 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't see anything wrong here.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    LALASD4LALASD4 Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭
    He knows you are a serious collector so if his coins does not meet your standard he does not want to sell to you, he just don't want you to feel sorry that you brought the coin later.
    Coin Collector, Chicken Owner, Licensed Tax Preparer & Insurance Broker/Agent.
    San Diego, CA


    image
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    KaelasdadKaelasdad Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭
    A person who bought 2 coins from me the day before at a coin show showed up early the next morning with all this research showing latest prices, and he wanted a discount, since one sale showed a significantly lower sale price on one of the coins. I told him that if i had seen that coin at that price, I would have bought it. He wanted my coin at the same price or a refund, so I simply gave him back his check and said I would love to have my coins back.

    I was discussing this with a gentleman at the same coin show and he said that his father had been a furniture store owner/carpenter, and made, sold, and repaired furniture. A guy came into his dads shop one day and spent an inordinate amount of time inspecting pieces of furniture, finally turning to the guys dad and saying, "Ill take it". His dad said Im sorry, I cant sell to you. If I did I would have to live in your house, as you would constantly be demanding my attention on every detail.

    Im not a picky person, I understand some people are, and sometimes I get taken advantage of by people who are picky. Id rather have my PCGS Pr70 and MS70 Gold Buffalo First Strikes back , than have someone unhappy with them, they will go to someone who wants them without feeling like they have to spend all night doing research they should have done prior to buying them.
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    numismanumisma Posts: 3,877 ✭✭✭✭

    I know the dealer you are referring to and he is giving you good advice. Just as a side note, if it is the person I am thinking of, he is conservative in his grading and very fair, so you can expect to get what he says and maybe even better.

    Suggestion: buy a few less expensive coins from him and see if you are pleased with the coins. Then, if you are happy, pull the trigger on the semi-keys that you are looking for.



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    storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭
    "You appear to have tagged yourself as being more potential trouble than your business would be worth. "

    ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    That is possible. Or, the seller might just be trying to save the
    buyer from feeling unhappy after the sale.

    When buyers email questions that indicate they are going to
    be difficult to satisfy, I steer them to shows/shops... and away
    from EBAY/online sales. That does not mean I am being rude,
    and it does not mean the buyer is unreasonable; only that I
    do not want to deal with the circumstance.

    Doing de facto "approval" sales on EBAY is especially troublesome
    for sellers.

    Buyers should be "picky;" and they should be prepared to pay
    top-dollar for their perfect finds.
    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 47,510 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can understand this dealer not wanting to deal with a perfectionist since his circ seated libs are less than perfect. Makes perfect business sense to me.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

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    LincolnCentManLincolnCentMan Posts: 5,347 ✭✭✭✭
    Dude, if a dealer tells you that the coin wont work for you... and it's in his inventory. He's going to be right.

    Just keep looking. And bookmark the dealer's page as one of your regular sites to check.

    -David
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    roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,371 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just keep walking. You will need a wide variety of dealers for the coins you desire, which is not a problem. Considering that 90% of the coins on the market are nothing special, we all need to look harder.

    And if that dealer does find something of that quality you can bet it will be 20-50% over regular price.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
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    Newcomp103Newcomp103 Posts: 2,223


    << <i>If none of his coins meet your standards, I don't see the issue. >>





    image
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    fcfc Posts: 12,804 ✭✭✭
    my first thought, and as usual it is negative, is that the dealer knew
    you would not like his coins and would return them as unsatisfactory.

    edited to add: even with the no return clause you wished to add,
    you were already becoming a "potential problem".
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    ColonialCoinUnionColonialCoinUnion Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭


    << <i>You appear to have tagged yourself as being more potential trouble than your business would be worth. >>



    That's how I interpreted it. And now I'm very curious to see the "list of criteria" you gave him . . .
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    jayboxxjayboxx Posts: 1,613 ✭✭
    That's how I interpreted it.

    Me too. I would love to see the email you sent.
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    who was this dealer? I'm collecting seated quarters right now and looking for many of these same dates and also have the problem where I'm looking for original coins and the 2 main sites I look at don't have pictures. I plan on ordering some lower priced stuff from them to see if I like it.
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    RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No harm, no foul. Just as collectors may choose to deal with whomever they wish, so may dealers.
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    DaveGDaveG Posts: 3,535
    I'm a very fussy buyer, and except for one dealer, I buy all my coins at shows.

    It may seem to be more expensive to travel to a large show (such as Baltimore) to see the major Seated dealers in person, but you avoid the time and expense of sending a coin back and you get the added bonus of being able to develop a relationship with a dealer. You can discuss your likes and dislikes in person and you and the dealer can point to examples of what you like or dislike in his inventory.

    Plus, while you're at the show, you can go to a meeting of the Liberty Seated Collectors' Club and meet some other Seated collectors.

    Check out the Southern Gold Society

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    mirabelamirabela Posts: 5,196 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>if a dealer tells you that the coin wont work for you... and it's in his inventory. He's going to be right >>



    Well stated.

    mirabela
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    speetyspeety Posts: 5,424
    I agree, don't loosen your standards and it was the right thing for him not to sell you the coins.
    Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!

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    lathmachlathmach Posts: 4,720
    You got the best advice anyone could give you from this dealer.
    You go to a major show, you can examine the coins and buy or decline on the spot. You can also dicker with the seller to try to get the price down.
    I've been collecting the Seated Quarters for nearly 20 years now.
    If you won't take anything but perfect coins, it's best you switch from the Seated Quarters to the State Quarters.
    Your coins won't be worth diddly, but they'll be perfect and you'll be happier.

    Ray
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    Here is the exact criteria I gave:

    Completely original
    No noticeable rim bumps
    No noticeable scratches (a few minor dings/small scratches are acceptable)
    100% full rims on both sides
    Medium dark color (must be even color and attractive)
    Devices should be a lighter color than the fields


    Maybe that is too much to ask, but I thought that because this dealer is known very well for seated coinage, he might have something I would like.

    I didn't expect him to not want to sell me anything.

    I should have worded it better. "No noticeable rim bumps" should probably read "no significant or deep rim bumps."

    I am not looking for perfection, just a better than average circulated coin.
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    CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,652 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ray knows of which he speaks.

    The gemmy circulated seated quarters are most elusive.

    The advice is good - go to shows, find what you like, and buy it.

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    TomBTomB Posts: 22,960 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Completely original
    No noticeable rim bumps
    No noticeable scratches (a few minor dings/small scratches are acceptable)
    100% full rims on both sides
    Medium dark color (must be even color and attractive)
    Devices should be a lighter color than the fields >>


    Your criteria, while certainly not out of the realm of possible, disqualifies the vast majority of coins in this series that most collectors would classify as relatively problem-free, original and attractive. Given that, I could imagine that the dealer might have several coins that many folks would kill for, but that might fall somewhat short of one or more of your qualifications. Therefore, I can imagine how someone might have quite high quality, desireable coinage yet may think you would not want it.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    FairlanemanFairlaneman Posts: 10,428 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A collector is a problem buyer because he has very high standards ? Thats a load.

    Maybe a collector that has high standards and wants everything for nothing would fit. But I do not see anywhere in this thread where the buyer is a cheapo buyer.

    Ken
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    ColonialCoinUnionColonialCoinUnion Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Here is the exact criteria I gave:

    Completely original
    No noticeable rim bumps
    No noticeable scratches (a few minor dings/small scratches are acceptable)
    100% full rims on both sides
    Medium dark color (must be even color and attractive)
    Devices should be a lighter color than the fields


    Maybe that is too much to ask, but I thought that because this dealer is known very well for seated coinage, he might have something I would like.

    I didn't expect him to not want to sell me anything.

    I should have worded it better. "No noticeable rim bumps" should probably read "no significant or deep rim bumps."

    I am not looking for perfection, just a better than average circulated coin. >>



    My view is that your original criteria as listed (prior to the qualifiers you added after the fact) might have convinced the dealer that you were going to be unrealistic in your expectations and very hard to please.

    But as you have recognized, slight changes in wording to indicate that your were realistic would have helped a lot.
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    Also, I did not plan to haggle at all. I was going to pay his listed price without question.
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    BoomBoom Posts: 10,165
    Consider yourself fortunate. He's basically saying what he has will NOT meet your "relaxed" standards which is probably more than he would do for most and I have zero idea of whom we are speaking. I'm just making a broad, across the board statement. You're lucky that he is being up front with you.

    Find someone that can! image
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    i believe i know who the dealer is, and if it is, i can say this, #1 this dealer is one of the most honest, fair and reputable dealers in the country. #2 some dealers are funny about someone buying thier coins to dump on ebay, (for thier own various reasons) not saying that this is what you do, just hypothesising, there is an ebay seller with an ID that is very similar to your user ID here and he is either blind or wears a blindfold, because his grading is so blatantly deceiving, again im just offering POSSIBLE reasons why a dealer would not want to sell his inventory maybe this dealer has you confused with the ebay seller, and prefers to not get involved in any of that, or would rather ebay his coins on his own, again, im just offering reasons for a dilema such as this
    there is an old saying about not keeping a toilet in the kitchen
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    eyoung429eyoung429 Posts: 6,374
    Mr. Platinum.....is it REALLY YOU????????



    J/K.....Sounds like the dealer has his ethics in order....you wouldn't want to buy a car over the internet just because of the advertised mileage would you? You would want to know the history, whether or not it matched your lifestyle (in this case an existing collection). He is protecting his interests as well as yours. If it was a common coin, I can see where it could be a "sight unseen" type of a deal but when you are dealing in quality coins of x dollars for a collection....it comes down to seeing the coin INHAND prior to purchasing.
    This is a very dumb ass thread. - Laura Sperber - Tuesday January 09, 2007 11:16 AM image

    Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
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    This Dealer is scared of you Ron.

    What does this imply about the Quality/ Authenticity of his coins.

    I don't know who HE is and furthermore I don't want to know.
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    << <i>This Dealer is scared of you Ron. >>




    << <i>What does this imply about the Quality/ Authenticity of his coins. >>



    This "one side of the story" does NOT imply anything about the Quality/Authenticity of the dealers coins!! It shows that the dealer did not feel that the particular coin he had in inventory at this time would meet the buyers expectations. I applaud the dealer.



    << <i>No harm, no foul. Just as collectors may choose to deal with whomever they wish, so may dealers. >>



    I agree with RYK !!

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Your criteria is so nebulous as to allow rejection/dissatisfaction with virtually any coin of the type you are seeking. That criteria may be interpreted up or down... and I certainly would not want to fill an order to those specifications. You must seek your coins in person at shops or shows - with loupe in hand. Even then, I am sure your return rate will be high. Cheers, RickO
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    Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If these coin are that hard to find for you, if this dealer found them would you pay the price?

    Probably not.
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    elwoodelwood Posts: 2,414



    << <i>I didn't expect him to not want to sell me anything. >>




    Anything or just this one coin?


    You could always contact him again and clarify your standards. If this is the dealer I think it is, it will be good to have a working relationship with him and to have him looking for stuff, because if anyone can find something, he can.

    I'd stick to your standards, you will be able to complete the perfect set with time.
    Please visit my website prehistoricamerica.com www.visitiowa.org/pinecreekcabins
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    IGWTIGWT Posts: 4,975
    -- "So now I am out of luck, and it appears he won't sell me any of his coins because I am too picky, even though I gave him a guarantee I would not return any of the coins." --

    I can't think of a situation in which I would give up my right to return a coin.
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    AmigoAmigo Posts: 966
    Just keep walking. You will need a wide variety of dealers for the coins you desire, which is not a problem. Considering that 90% of the coins on the market are nothing special, we all need to look harder.

    And if that dealer does find something of that quality you can bet it will be 20-50% over regular price.

    roadrunner

    I agree.

    I feel your pain. All of us collectors other than Modern wantabe flippers would love to fill some key spots, many times willing to settle with less quality than we'd prefer. Personally, I think the Dealer came off as a jerk. Selling coins via mail / approval is part of the business. It's not his place to determine what's in the best interest of the Buyer. I'd have respect for the Dealer if he told you it was crap, but he'd send it to you for your inspection in case you were tired of looking at that empty spot in your collection and were wiling to settle for it until he found you an upgrade.

    Any person like this Dealer treated you is the same 'crap' as his coins IMHO. I don't care how high fulutin he thinks he is, his S,H,I,T still stinks. Stay away from the Jerk.
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    PandavabPandavab Posts: 960 ✭✭✭
    I'm confused by the posts by people upset at this dealer. The OP said they were looking for one particular date, not any coin in a series. To find such a coin from that series with the requirements he asked for isn't exactly easy. The fact that a dealer, even if he is specialized in that type, doesn't have an example to meet your standards isn't shocking. Also, the fact that a dealer tells you that he has nothing that you would like would be commendable, at least to me. It's hard to tell a potential buyer that you think you don't have anything to meet his standards. I'd ask him to keep an eye out for any that meet your standards, and to give you a call if he finds one. If he doesn't agree to do that, then you may think that something is "wrong" with the relationship.

    I have trouble putting a dealer down who actually tries to deliver what his customers want. As if we'd actually want more dealers looking out for themselves at the expense of others. I'd actually be curious of who this dealer is, since I also happen to like seated quarters.

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