This was found "across the street" AT vs NT
Newcomp103
Posts: 2,223 ✭
This is directed at nobody in particular and not only related to blue Indians. I understand the harsh approach will turn off many. Too bad!
With all the babble and finger pointing going on, there are some things that need to be driven into everyone's skull. Read and understand the following and you’ll be better off in this hobby.
1) There is no such thing as Artificial Toning. There is just toning. Period.
There is no accepted definition of Artificial Toning. Everyone has a different opinion. There is only market acceptable and market unacceptable toning. Deal with it!
Stick a coin in a sulfur laden album and it tones, it's NT. Stick a coin in a box with sulfur match heads all around, it's AT.
Stick a coin in a potato sack to hide from robbers and it tones, it's NT. Stick a coin in a potato sack to tone it and it tones, it's AT.
Bull [embarrassing lack of self control]! It's all semantics. And please don't say it is the intent. Unless you can read minds, you don't know the intent. And intent really doesn't matter. Look at the freakin' coin now. Like it or dislike it. That's the only question!
2) There is no such thing as an original coin - at least not one that is more than a few years old. Period.
You say you like original coins that aren't messed with. You sound like a moron. Have you owned the coin since the second it came off the dies? If not, you don't know if it is original. Don't pretend you do.
Making coins look their best has been done since the first coin collector was born. Deal with it. You have no idea what original looks like. You just assume a certain look is original. Here's an insane thought: Try talking to people who know things! You'd be stunned to know what can be done to coins (or comics, cards, vases, paintings, cars, etc).
Recently there was a thread across the street showing a Seated quarter that went from toned MS65 to blast white MS66. A bunch of wankers cried about the loss of yet another original coin. Yet, none of them stepped up to buy the original coin. Lots of talk, but all of it hypocritical bs. Practically everyone of the wankers there would have dipped that coin had they had the balls to risk $5K.
Fact: Coins are minted in metal. Metal is very reactive. It gets pretty and it gets ugly. When it gets ugly, owners try to make it less ugly by using chemicals on them. We all like pretty coins. Some of us are just too clueless to understand that pretty might not be original.
Don’t like the above, then buy a proof set from the mint. Most non-modern collector quality coins have been messed with at least once. Slabbed, raw, whatever, it doesn't matter. My estimate is 80% of non-modern collector quality coins in slabs have been messed with. The other 20% probably wasn't worth it.
3) The grading services should NOT be the last line of defense against questionable coins. Period.
They're not your mommy! Learn for yourself what is good/bad to you. The grading services are there to guarantee the authenticity of a coin and give you an idea of the grade of the coin. They don't tell you the quality of the coin. Stop whining if you see something in their slab you don't like. Start your own grading company and do it your way. Stop your whining! They’re grading 4-5 million coins a year. They must be doing something right, yet you, Joe “State Quarter Collector”, who has submitted 4 coins in their life feel compelled to tell them what they’re doing wrong.
The grading services do an exceptional job of screening out bad coins. They really do! They are giving their opinion of a coin in the now (market acceptable), not based on what it looked like before. What do you care what it looked like before? Oh, I forgot, you like "original coins" (See point #2).
4) You're not experts. You're hypocrites. Period.
Stop oohing and aahing over coins today and bashing them tomorrow. They're the same coins. You know, little round pieces of metal with images and words stamped on them.
I know, now you know something and your opinion has change. It was pretty last week, but awful this week. Screw you! It's the SAME coin. Stop your whiny complaining! You either like it or don't. Stop changing your opinion.
5) Buy what you like. Period.
Do you like the look of it? Is it priced right? If the answer to those two questions is yes, buy it. Why do you need the validation of others? Nothing more needs to be said.
6) Coins are a business. Learn about what you’re spending your money on. Period.
Ever hear “Buy the book before the coin”? Sure you have. Did you? Of course not. People spend their hard earned money before learning and end up unhappy. Boo hoo! That’s life and happens in every aspect of life. You jump into stuff you know nothing about and wonder what happened. So what. Who is to blame?
Educate yourself. Period.
Shocked that the blast white Barber half turns out to have been dipped. Whose fault is that?
Shocked that the blue toned Indian was cleaned with MS70 or before MS70, ammonia. Whose fault is that?
Shocked that a silver commemorative from this year that is toned in wild rainbows turns out to have been made. Whose fault is that?
Shocked that the raw key date without any of the well know correct diagnostics you purchased is counterfeit. Whose fault is that?
Shocked that the 1811 Trade dollar you purchased off eBay from a private feedback seller in China is fake. Whose fault is that?
To answer the above, it must be the fault of others ruining your innocent and naive hobby. It can’t possibly be the fault of the people who don’t take the time to educate themselves.
Fact: Most old white silver coins have been dipped in acid.
Fact: Most blue toned Indians have been curated with MS70.
Fact: Most wildly toned ultra modern silver coins are “made”.
Fact: All raw key date coins without the correct diagnostics are counterfeit.
Fact: All 1811 Trade dollars are counterfeit.
The above is well known throughout the industry. Ask your average dealer. None of this info has ever been hidden. The fact that YOU failed to take the time to learn is YOUR problem. Don’t blame others. Don’t get all righteous. Don’t point fingers unless you’re looking in a mirror.
I’ve seen some people saying how NGC is slabbing AT coins. You’re idiots. Clueless idiots! How many of you have held one of these coins in your hand? Does it look AT to you? Come on, you’re the self-proclaimed experts. Look at the coin.
How many blue toned Indians are out there? A few thousand is my guess. How many are slabbed? I’d guess around a thousand. They’re slabbed by all the services. Excluding NGC from this statement, before the original thread a couple months ago was posted, I had spoken to graders at two of the other services about blue Indians. Point blank I asked them about them. They were 100% knowledgeable about MS70 being used on them and still fine with slabbing them. Market acceptable.
Don’t like them, don’t buy them, but don’t whine like a little girl that you’re not happy with this. Go start your own grading service and get off the of the grading services.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sorry...forgot to paste this...it was posted by a CU forum member that has not logged in since 2003...I had to edit some of the language...obviously, there is frustration in his writing...but he makes some good points...just wanted to share this.
With all the babble and finger pointing going on, there are some things that need to be driven into everyone's skull. Read and understand the following and you’ll be better off in this hobby.
1) There is no such thing as Artificial Toning. There is just toning. Period.
There is no accepted definition of Artificial Toning. Everyone has a different opinion. There is only market acceptable and market unacceptable toning. Deal with it!
Stick a coin in a sulfur laden album and it tones, it's NT. Stick a coin in a box with sulfur match heads all around, it's AT.
Stick a coin in a potato sack to hide from robbers and it tones, it's NT. Stick a coin in a potato sack to tone it and it tones, it's AT.
Bull [embarrassing lack of self control]! It's all semantics. And please don't say it is the intent. Unless you can read minds, you don't know the intent. And intent really doesn't matter. Look at the freakin' coin now. Like it or dislike it. That's the only question!
2) There is no such thing as an original coin - at least not one that is more than a few years old. Period.
You say you like original coins that aren't messed with. You sound like a moron. Have you owned the coin since the second it came off the dies? If not, you don't know if it is original. Don't pretend you do.
Making coins look their best has been done since the first coin collector was born. Deal with it. You have no idea what original looks like. You just assume a certain look is original. Here's an insane thought: Try talking to people who know things! You'd be stunned to know what can be done to coins (or comics, cards, vases, paintings, cars, etc).
Recently there was a thread across the street showing a Seated quarter that went from toned MS65 to blast white MS66. A bunch of wankers cried about the loss of yet another original coin. Yet, none of them stepped up to buy the original coin. Lots of talk, but all of it hypocritical bs. Practically everyone of the wankers there would have dipped that coin had they had the balls to risk $5K.
Fact: Coins are minted in metal. Metal is very reactive. It gets pretty and it gets ugly. When it gets ugly, owners try to make it less ugly by using chemicals on them. We all like pretty coins. Some of us are just too clueless to understand that pretty might not be original.
Don’t like the above, then buy a proof set from the mint. Most non-modern collector quality coins have been messed with at least once. Slabbed, raw, whatever, it doesn't matter. My estimate is 80% of non-modern collector quality coins in slabs have been messed with. The other 20% probably wasn't worth it.
3) The grading services should NOT be the last line of defense against questionable coins. Period.
They're not your mommy! Learn for yourself what is good/bad to you. The grading services are there to guarantee the authenticity of a coin and give you an idea of the grade of the coin. They don't tell you the quality of the coin. Stop whining if you see something in their slab you don't like. Start your own grading company and do it your way. Stop your whining! They’re grading 4-5 million coins a year. They must be doing something right, yet you, Joe “State Quarter Collector”, who has submitted 4 coins in their life feel compelled to tell them what they’re doing wrong.
The grading services do an exceptional job of screening out bad coins. They really do! They are giving their opinion of a coin in the now (market acceptable), not based on what it looked like before. What do you care what it looked like before? Oh, I forgot, you like "original coins" (See point #2).
4) You're not experts. You're hypocrites. Period.
Stop oohing and aahing over coins today and bashing them tomorrow. They're the same coins. You know, little round pieces of metal with images and words stamped on them.
I know, now you know something and your opinion has change. It was pretty last week, but awful this week. Screw you! It's the SAME coin. Stop your whiny complaining! You either like it or don't. Stop changing your opinion.
5) Buy what you like. Period.
Do you like the look of it? Is it priced right? If the answer to those two questions is yes, buy it. Why do you need the validation of others? Nothing more needs to be said.
6) Coins are a business. Learn about what you’re spending your money on. Period.
Ever hear “Buy the book before the coin”? Sure you have. Did you? Of course not. People spend their hard earned money before learning and end up unhappy. Boo hoo! That’s life and happens in every aspect of life. You jump into stuff you know nothing about and wonder what happened. So what. Who is to blame?
Educate yourself. Period.
Shocked that the blast white Barber half turns out to have been dipped. Whose fault is that?
Shocked that the blue toned Indian was cleaned with MS70 or before MS70, ammonia. Whose fault is that?
Shocked that a silver commemorative from this year that is toned in wild rainbows turns out to have been made. Whose fault is that?
Shocked that the raw key date without any of the well know correct diagnostics you purchased is counterfeit. Whose fault is that?
Shocked that the 1811 Trade dollar you purchased off eBay from a private feedback seller in China is fake. Whose fault is that?
To answer the above, it must be the fault of others ruining your innocent and naive hobby. It can’t possibly be the fault of the people who don’t take the time to educate themselves.
Fact: Most old white silver coins have been dipped in acid.
Fact: Most blue toned Indians have been curated with MS70.
Fact: Most wildly toned ultra modern silver coins are “made”.
Fact: All raw key date coins without the correct diagnostics are counterfeit.
Fact: All 1811 Trade dollars are counterfeit.
The above is well known throughout the industry. Ask your average dealer. None of this info has ever been hidden. The fact that YOU failed to take the time to learn is YOUR problem. Don’t blame others. Don’t get all righteous. Don’t point fingers unless you’re looking in a mirror.
I’ve seen some people saying how NGC is slabbing AT coins. You’re idiots. Clueless idiots! How many of you have held one of these coins in your hand? Does it look AT to you? Come on, you’re the self-proclaimed experts. Look at the coin.
How many blue toned Indians are out there? A few thousand is my guess. How many are slabbed? I’d guess around a thousand. They’re slabbed by all the services. Excluding NGC from this statement, before the original thread a couple months ago was posted, I had spoken to graders at two of the other services about blue Indians. Point blank I asked them about them. They were 100% knowledgeable about MS70 being used on them and still fine with slabbing them. Market acceptable.
Don’t like them, don’t buy them, but don’t whine like a little girl that you’re not happy with this. Go start your own grading service and get off the of the grading services.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sorry...forgot to paste this...it was posted by a CU forum member that has not logged in since 2003...I had to edit some of the language...obviously, there is frustration in his writing...but he makes some good points...just wanted to share this.
0
Comments
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Do you work for Marguli? >>
NO....I don't even know who he is.
<< <i>Do you work for Marguli? >>
Does he have people working for him?
Edited to add: I forgot to say, I agree with the post, minus calling people hypocrites, morons and idiots- there is no need for that.
https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/collectors-showcase/world-coins/one-coin-per-year-1600-2017/2422
<< <i>This is directed at nobody in particular and not only related to blue Indians. I understand the harsh approach will turn off many. Too bad!
With all the babble and finger pointing going on, there are some things that need to be driven into everyone's skull. Read and understand the following and you’ll be better off in this hobby.
1) There is no such thing as Artificial Toning. There is just toning. Period.
There is no accepted definition of Artificial Toning. Everyone has a different opinion. There is only market acceptable and market unacceptable toning. Deal with it!
Stick a coin in a sulfur laden album and it tones, it's NT. Stick a coin in a box with sulfur match heads all around, it's AT.
Stick a coin in a potato sack to hide from robbers and it tones, it's NT. Stick a coin in a potato sack to tone it and it tones, it's AT.
Bull [embarrassing lack of self control]! It's all semantics. And please don't say it is the intent. Unless you can read minds, you don't know the intent. And intent really doesn't matter. Look at the freakin' coin now. Like it or dislike it. That's the only question!
2) There is no such thing as an original coin - at least not one that is more than a few years old. Period.
You say you like original coins that aren't messed with. You sound like a moron. Have you owned the coin since the second it came off the dies? If not, you don't know if it is original. Don't pretend you do.
Making coins look their best has been done since the first coin collector was born. Deal with it. You have no idea what original looks like. You just assume a certain look is original. Here's an insane thought: Try talking to people who know things! You'd be stunned to know what can be done to coins (or comics, cards, vases, paintings, cars, etc).
Recently there was a thread across the street showing a Seated quarter that went from toned MS65 to blast white MS66. A bunch of wankers cried about the loss of yet another original coin. Yet, none of them stepped up to buy the original coin. Lots of talk, but all of it hypocritical bs. Practically everyone of the wankers there would have dipped that coin had they had the balls to risk $5K.
Fact: Coins are minted in metal. Metal is very reactive. It gets pretty and it gets ugly. When it gets ugly, owners try to make it less ugly by using chemicals on them. We all like pretty coins. Some of us are just too clueless to understand that pretty might not be original.
Don’t like the above, then buy a proof set from the mint. Most non-modern collector quality coins have been messed with at least once. Slabbed, raw, whatever, it doesn't matter. My estimate is 80% of non-modern collector quality coins in slabs have been messed with. The other 20% probably wasn't worth it.
3) The grading services should NOT be the last line of defense against questionable coins. Period.
They're not your mommy! Learn for yourself what is good/bad to you. The grading services are there to guarantee the authenticity of a coin and give you an idea of the grade of the coin. They don't tell you the quality of the coin. Stop whining if you see something in their slab you don't like. Start your own grading company and do it your way. Stop your whining! They’re grading 4-5 million coins a year. They must be doing something right, yet you, Joe “State Quarter Collector”, who has submitted 4 coins in their life feel compelled to tell them what they’re doing wrong.
The grading services do an exceptional job of screening out bad coins. They really do! They are giving their opinion of a coin in the now (market acceptable), not based on what it looked like before. What do you care what it looked like before? Oh, I forgot, you like "original coins" (See point #2).
4) You're not experts. You're hypocrites. Period.
Stop oohing and aahing over coins today and bashing them tomorrow. They're the same coins. You know, little round pieces of metal with images and words stamped on them.
I know, now you know something and your opinion has change. It was pretty last week, but awful this week. Screw you! It's the SAME coin. Stop your whiny complaining! You either like it or don't. Stop changing your opinion.
5) Buy what you like. Period.
Do you like the look of it? Is it priced right? If the answer to those two questions is yes, buy it. Why do you need the validation of others? Nothing more needs to be said.
6) Coins are a business. Learn about what you’re spending your money on. Period.
Ever hear “Buy the book before the coin”? Sure you have. Did you? Of course not. People spend their hard earned money before learning and end up unhappy. Boo hoo! That’s life and happens in every aspect of life. You jump into stuff you know nothing about and wonder what happened. So what. Who is to blame?
Educate yourself. Period.
Shocked that the blast white Barber half turns out to have been dipped. Whose fault is that?
Shocked that the blue toned Indian was cleaned with MS70 or before MS70, ammonia. Whose fault is that?
Shocked that a silver commemorative from this year that is toned in wild rainbows turns out to have been made. Whose fault is that?
Shocked that the raw key date without any of the well know correct diagnostics you purchased is counterfeit. Whose fault is that?
Shocked that the 1811 Trade dollar you purchased off eBay from a private feedback seller in China is fake. Whose fault is that?
To answer the above, it must be the fault of others ruining your innocent and naive hobby. It can’t possibly be the fault of the people who don’t take the time to educate themselves.
Fact: Most old white silver coins have been dipped in acid.
Fact: Most blue toned Indians have been curated with MS70.
Fact: Most wildly toned ultra modern silver coins are “made”.
Fact: All raw key date coins without the correct diagnostics are counterfeit.
Fact: All 1811 Trade dollars are counterfeit.
The above is well known throughout the industry. Ask your average dealer. None of this info has ever been hidden. The fact that YOU failed to take the time to learn is YOUR problem. Don’t blame others. Don’t get all righteous. Don’t point fingers unless you’re looking in a mirror.
I’ve seen some people saying how NGC is slabbing AT coins. You’re idiots. Clueless idiots! How many of you have held one of these coins in your hand? Does it look AT to you? Come on, you’re the self-proclaimed experts. Look at the coin.
How many blue toned Indians are out there? A few thousand is my guess. How many are slabbed? I’d guess around a thousand. They’re slabbed by all the services. Excluding NGC from this statement, before the original thread a couple months ago was posted, I had spoken to graders at two of the other services about blue Indians. Point blank I asked them about them. They were 100% knowledgeable about MS70 being used on them and still fine with slabbing them. Market acceptable.
Don’t like them, don’t buy them, but don’t whine like a little girl that you’re not happy with this. Go start your own grading service and get off the of the grading services.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sorry...forgot to paste this...it was posted by a CU forum member that has not logged in since 2003...I had to edit some of the language...obviously, there is frustration in his writing...but he makes some good points...just wanted to share this. >>
Look, I know you mean all well and good and that is just swell.
However, telling someone who got the shaft on a new hobby that they deserved the shaft. Thats kind of gee, rude and totally uninformative. Most folks, figure that out and adding to the luggage is just not needed.
I agree with about 95% of what you said. I also agree, hey yeah, educate yourself before you buy anything, thats a nugget of knowledge any person should get and yes, I do just that. Does everyone do tht . No. Not the best approach for sure.
BUT, the day you take up a new hobby or interest and make a mistake, you might want to heed your own advice and look in the mirror. Can you really say, wow, I deserved to get shafted because this is part of being initiated.......Right. Not a crowd drawing quality anyway you slice it. Thanks for the tips however, they are very real for the experiened and new person alike.
You say you like original coins that aren't messed with. You sound like a moron. Have you owned the coin since the second it came off the dies? If not, you don't know if it is original. Don't pretend you do.
Making coins look their best has been done since the first coin collector was born. Deal with it. You have no idea what original looks like. You just assume a certain look is original. Here's an insane thought: Try talking to people who know things! You'd be stunned to know what can be done to coins (or comics, cards, vases, paintings, cars, etc).
We as collectors or dealers , Auction houses what ever it may be . Should want to educate teach and inform those of less educated and less informed
What about the new people , Kids or the woman who just brought in the coins that her dead love one left her and she finds out the coins she has are crap because the dealer that sold them, said buyer beware, have some morals ! stop making excuses to rip people off.
Men that are vets should always live buy the rule : protect the weak and the ones that can not protect themselves..
25 inf 1/14 Gold Dragons ,never surrender, over come and adapt
and hold at all cost!
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>For those who are not aware, that was posted by an admitted coin doctor in an attempt to rationalize his own actions.
Russ, NCNE >>
And then unwittingly copied into this forum by a person who apparently didn't know that, and thought he was making a helpful public service announcement.
<< <i>For those who are not aware, that was posted by an admitted coin doctor in an attempt to rationalize his own actions.
Russ, NCNE >>
On Blue Bayou (ode to MS70)
Saving pennies saving dimes
Tone 'em up til the sun don't shine
Looking forward to richer times
For Blue, by you
The thing that bothers me about this is saying there is no original coin unless it's new or however it was stated. The argument being that unless I've owned it for the entire time, there is now way I know if it's original or not. That argument can be made either way, unless you have first hand knowledge of it being altered, it might be original. I'm not saying I can tell if it is original, but I can usually tell when it's not and I follow the point of if I like it and the price is right I buy it, but this section made him sound like a moron IMO.
Rob
I believe I'm too busy at work to proofread today. Sorry.
4/123
-----------
Invested $216.76
Return on Investment $0.68
Found but keeping $.15
<< <i> 2) There is no such thing as an original coin - at least not one that is more than a few years old. Period.
You say you like original coins that aren't messed with. You sound like a moron. >>
I may very well be a moron but there are a number of experts in numismatics who talk about "original" coins
and how there are fewer today than there used to be. Men who have spent decades in the business
and written books, done extensive research..etc... (ie. I'm thinking of Doug Winter in particular).
Surely he has the authority to discuss original "gold" and unoriginal "gold"?
<< <i> Have you owned the coin since the second it came off the dies? If not, you don't know if it is original. Don't pretend you do. >>
The logic here is faulty. It's like saying: Have you seen your kids every second of every day since they were born? Then you don't know they are your kids.
Baloney.
I'm ready to admit I personally can't recognize "original" coins (they may be doctored..etc..etc) ..but...I'm also ready to say that there are experts in this field who can identify original and "unmessed with" coins...and at this point in my coin collecting adventure I'm going to them for advice.
flame away.
-af
<< <i> Too bad!
Deal with it!
You sound like a moron.
Deal with it.
Stop your whining!
You're not experts. You're hypocrites.
Screw you! Stop your whiny complaining!
You’re idiots. Clueless idiots!
don’t whine like a little girl >>
While I get the message, this was obviously not originally posted by Dale Carnegie. Would have had the same or more impact with a little restraint, but I guess that's what makes this all fun, right?
It just feels,as if I was run over by a truck.
Camelot
<< <i>For those who are not aware, that was posted by an admitted coin doctor in an attempt to rationalize his own actions.
Russ, NCNE >>
I was wondering when somebody was gonna mention this........and to think this thread was garnering support. Unreal.
<< <i>
<< <i>For those who are not aware, that was posted by an admitted coin doctor in an attempt to rationalize his own actions.
Russ, NCNE >>
And then unwittingly copied into this forum by a person who apparently didn't know that, and thought he was making a helpful public service announcement. >>
And it was written months ago, as well. Brought to the top over there recently by someone, for whatever reason. Old news, and too bad it showed up here. And I share the astonishment at the support he gets.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/collectors-showcase/world-coins/one-coin-per-year-1600-2017/2422
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Why can't you separate the message from the messenger? It seems that support for or against these statements, as with a lot of threads here, is based on personal feelings for or against the author. >>
Could it be because it's belligerent and condescending in the extreme, and that the writer's intent is transparent?
<< <i>
<< <i>Why can't you separate the message from the messenger? It seems that support for or against these statements, as with a lot of threads here, is based on personal feelings for or against the author. >>
Could it be because it's belligerent and condescending in the extreme, and that the writer's intent is transparent? >>
That's pretty much what I was gonna say.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>- Greg, Official Message Board Ambassador™ >>
.....huh. Not necessarily my idea of what an ambassador is...
Lincoln set Colorless Set
If Someone hasn't figured this out, he's in the wrong hobby
the book in front of me but I'm pretty sure he states that there is no such thing as an original coin from the early 1800's. They
don't exist and if they are white they have been altered.
Bruce
Shawn
<< <i>I realized that this would cause some discussion...but I did not write it, I did not realize it has been discussed previously on the forum, and I thought it had some valid points...sorry to those it has offended!
Shawn >>
You have no reason to be sorry at all.
<< <i>I realized that this would cause some discussion...but I did not write it, I did not realize it has been discussed previously on the forum, and I thought it had some valid points...sorry to those it has offended! >>
I think it does have some valid points if you can get past the rhetoric. People seem to be offended by the tone and presentation as well as the OP perhaps.
Wait....these aren't your words? oh Piffle. Well, I disagree with the original poster's statments as follows....
<< <i>This is directed at nobody in particular and not only related to blue Indians. I understand the harsh approach will turn off many. Too bad!
With all the babble and finger pointing going on, there are some things that need to be driven into everyone's skull. Read and understand the following and you’ll be better off in this hobby. >>
I agree with some points in a very limited way. Much of what the OP wrote is hyperbole, the exaggeration unfortunately makes it not true.
<< <i>1) There is no such thing as Artificial Toning. There is just toning. Period. >>
Nope. That's like saying there's no such thing as cleaning, only wear.
To be fair to the point hidiing in there, the line is not perfectly drawn and distinct.
<< <i>2) There is no such thing as an original coin - at least not one that is more than a few years old. Period.
You say you like original coins that aren't messed with. You sound like a moron. >>
That's a rather crass misstatment. I'd rather have a coin that is as much as is possible as "original" as it was since it was minted.
Yes, time will change the coin's surface, but admitting that fact does not mean that tampering with the coin is acceptable.
I'd rather have a coin that's untampered with. period.
<< <i>Recently there was a thread across the street showing a Seated quarter that went from toned MS65 to blast white MS66. A bunch of wankers cried about the loss of yet another original coin. Yet, none of them stepped up to buy the original coin. Lots of talk, but all of it hypocritical bs. Practically everyone of the wankers there would have dipped that coin had they had the balls to risk $5K. >>
I think the OP is being unfair. I would not have dipped the coin, and would have preferred it undipped. That i'm not in the market for a slabbed MS65 Seated Quarter does not somehow make me a hypocrite.
<< <i>We all like pretty coins. >>
Yes, and some of us like ugly coins too.
<< <i>Most non-modern collector quality coins have been messed with at least once. Slabbed, raw, whatever, it doesn't matter. My estimate is 80% of non-modern collector quality coins in slabs have been messed with. The other 20% probably wasn't worth it. >>
I wonder what the source is for this claim? I hear it a lot, but what's the basis for it?
<< <i>3) The grading services should NOT be the last line of defense against questionable coins. Period. >>
No argument here.
<< <i>4) You're not experts. You're hypocrites. Period.
Stop oohing and aahing over coins today and bashing them tomorrow. They're the same coins. You know, little round pieces of metal with images and words stamped on them.
I know, now you know something and your opinion has change. It was pretty last week, but awful this week. Screw you! It's the SAME coin. Stop your whiny complaining! You either like it or don't. Stop changing your opinion. >>
Finding out that a coin has most likely been tampered with is going to change my opinion.
I purchased a coin from a reputable dealer that in photos appeared lovely. In hand it was also lovely, but magnification showed telltale signs of cleaning. I liked the coin a lot less afterwards.
Again, sorry if that offends the OP, but I'd prefer an coin that has not been tampered with.
<< <i>Shocked that the blast white Barber half turns out to have been dipped. Whose fault is that?
(plus many more examples of dipping, cleaning, AT, etc >>
The fault is the person who altered the coin, obviously. We can educate ourselves the best we can, but sometimes you simply cannot tell if something has been dipped or cleaned. Even the TPGs can't always tell. Therefore, it is the people who are altering and damaging these coins that are the ones at fault. If they sold the coin as "gently wiped, then dipped in MS70 to remove some ugly toning" then I'd say otherwise.
<< <i>Fact: Most old white silver coins have been dipped in acid. >>
I don't disagree, but once again, I wonder what the source is?
<< <i>For those who are not aware, that was posted by an admitted coin doctor in an attempt to rationalize his own actions.
Russ, NCNE >>
I was wondering if that was true. Who was the coin doctor?
That post was from Gmarguli who is on the NGC boards.
Lincoln set Colorless Set
I've owned a few totally original superb gem and gem 19th century mint state seated coins were the luster was thick and as crusty as could be. There was no doubt in my mind or anyone else's that has seen them, that they are essentially as they left the mint + light toning. They are certainly not the norm and far and few between.
But they are decidedly out there. My ex 1867-s quarter would be such a coin.
roadrunner
This is why I left the hobby; luckily, I came back with the simple mantra....have fun and learn. It does not take moon money to have fun or for that matter to buy a coin you like.
The desired coin does not have to look like anything except what you think it should be. If you want the perfect original coin, good luck. It is out there; but its what you think it is. It is not what another person thinks it should be.
IF GRADING WAS A SCIENCE, most of this would be moot.
Lets see, do I trust the opinion of Warren Mills, Mike Printz, Mark Feld, Doug Winter, etc... or the bravado of an admitted doctor who uses chemical agents to color up copper and get them into holders for profit ?????
Anyone who supports the notion that there is no way anyone can determine whether a coin is virgin and untampered with is just plain lazy or mis-guided.....or both
didn`t get past #2 on your list, other than that, no comment
This Thread - Untitled
<< <i>. . . And someone's intent cannot be determined unless he or she tells us, and coin doctors out to deceive won't tell, so the intent aspect is meaningless and irrelevent because it's impossible to enforce. . . So for people into toners, they're kidding themselves if they think there is any way to truly know one way or the other. >>
I believe that the images below strongly suggest intent here. The link to the original thread: Proven AT coin
If memory serves me right this coin sold at auction in two different slabs - one blast white and the other colored, within a few months time-span. I'm not certain who is responsible, but they definitely had intent. In fact I think the toned coin brought several thousand more $ than when the same coin sold without the artificial colors. The profit motive speaks to intent. So we don't need the doctor's admission. Prima facia evidence. So IMO it's not impossible, meaningless or irrelevant.
<< <i>
Come on, PCGS - hunt the bastage down and publicly flay him! >>
Edited to fix the Link.
Edited once again to add this post from the original thread:
<< <i>
<< <i>Just to clarify: The first coin sold in an NCS holder as Proof, improperly cleaned for $19,550 on April 26, 2006
<a href="http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=404&Lot_No=2164&src=pr">http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=404&Lot_No=2164&src=pr</A>
And the after one, same coin in a PCGS PR-63 holder for $46,000 on January 2, 2007
<a href="http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=422&Lot_No=1052&src=pr">http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=422&Lot_No=1052&src=pr</A> >>
So it took less than 8 months to get that "centuries old toned look"?
>>
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>If memory serves me right this coin sold at auction in two different slabs - one blast white and the other colored, within a few months time-span. I'm not certain who is responsible, but they definitely had intent. In fact I think the toned coin brought several thousand more $ than when the same coin sold without the artificial colors. The profit motive speaks to intent. So we don't need the doctor's admission. Prima facia evidence. So IMO it's not impossible, meaningless or irrelevant. >>
Over $26k more.
<< <i>
<< <i>For those who are not aware, that was posted by an admitted coin doctor in an attempt to rationalize his own actions.
Russ, NCNE >>
I was wondering when somebody was gonna mention this........and to think this thread was garnering support. Unreal.
I concur!