I found the following in one of Greg's later posts very interesting:
<< <i>At least two of the posters who took shots over there are ATers. One used to sell raw on eBay and has helped another forum member cheat some buyers out of money. The other is a bigger player in the AT game. I've been reliably told that they get a fair amount of their work into PCGS slab and many are sold by another forum member. Actually, some have even been sold to other forums members! >>
<< <i>Why is everybody sooo quick to jump on the bandwagon of "Lets Bash the truth cuz it hurts" Did he put it blunt? YES! Is there alot of truth? YES! Could it have been worded differently? Prolly so.. As to the point about orginal coins. NONE of us know for 100% sure that any coin you have not owned since it left the mint is 100% orginal. We have ideas of what we think orginal coins should look like, but nobody can be 100% certain. Who is to say that the 1820 Bust Half you own that is now all dark was not dipped in 1850, and then darkened over time. Besides define orginal? That would be different for every person. Some people say toning is not orginal, some do. It is all in the preference. >>
There are a few coins that a person can be virtually certain are 100% original. If a person bought a GSA dollar and held it until today, that person can be sure that coin is 100% original. If it is a white average looking coin, the buyer of that GSA coin can be 99% certain that it is original. If a person buys a coin that was photographed in an early catalog, and the provenance chain is known for that coin, and the coin looks the same as the old photo, that person can be virtually certain of the originality of that coin. That said, it is a vanishingly small percentage of coins that fall into the 100% certain or even 98% certain category.
No need to bash, or bandwagon. There is a kernel of truth in what is written, however, there are many self-serving statements as well. The person who wrote that stuff is not objective--they have an ax to grind, coins to sell, newbies to deceive. Readers, keep in mind of what a person's agenda might be, that includes the good folks here on this forum.
GSA Morgans are not as original as some people think. I heard a great many of them were put into trashcan type buckets and dipped. Used a broom to move the coins around. Then were placed into the GSA holder. Here again we are talking about a small number of coins. It is better to assume a coin is not original than is. One never knows what a coin has been thru in its lifetime.
<< <i>GSA Morgans are not as original as some people think. I heard a great many of them were put into trashcan type buckets and dipped. Used a broom to move the coins around. Then were placed into the GSA holder. Here again we are talking about a small number of coins. It is better to assume a coin is not original than is. One never knows what a coin has been thru in its lifetime. >>
Please cite where you heard this from. Anything I read on the GSA Hoard never mentioned this.
<< <i>GSA Morgans are not as original as some people think. I heard a great many of them were put into trashcan type buckets and dipped. Used a broom to move the coins around. Then were placed into the GSA holder. Here again we are talking about a small number of coins. It is better to assume a coin is not original than is. One never knows what a coin has been thru in its lifetime. >>
Please cite where you heard this from. Anything I read on the GSA Hoard never mentioned this. >>
I cannot cite where I heard this from with a link, since this info was givin to me via a phone conversation with one of the toner nuts from this board. This makes a bit of sense to me as he spoke of people wanting white coins back then. Also makes sense in the fact that when these Morgans were moved around with a broom, they got marked up which is common of a GSA Morgan. If you would like this forum members name you can PM me. He is a long time collector as well.
<< <i>GSA Morgans are not as original as some people think. I heard a great many of them were put into trashcan type buckets and dipped. Used a broom to move the coins around. Then were placed into the GSA holder. Here again we are talking about a small number of coins. It is better to assume a coin is not original than is. One never knows what a coin has been thru in its lifetime. >>
Sounds like absolute garbage rumor to me. What upside was there for government employees to do this? Why is it not documented anywhere? Who paid for the dip, the trash cans or brooms. Government employees don't go to the toilet without permission. Government folks know nothing about dips or toning or anything else. Believe what you will, but in my opinion this sounds like absolute garbage. Anyone can say what ever they want, but without any evidence, and with government operations there would be invoices for trash cans, dip solution and brooms, as well as approval by higher ups, this is garbage.
Again, readers, keep in mind that anyone can write whatever they want on the Internet. Keep in mind, what ax they have to grind, what coins they may have to sell, or what other agenda they may have. Readers can draw whatever conclusions make sense to them, but it may or may not be anywhere close to the truth.
<< <i>GSA Morgans are not as original as some people think. I heard a great many of them were put into trashcan type buckets and dipped. Used a broom to move the coins around. Then were placed into the GSA holder. Here again we are talking about a small number of coins. It is better to assume a coin is not original than is. One never knows what a coin has been thru in its lifetime. >>
I believe some one got the story mixed up!! John Highfill was supposed to have done this during the White Morgan craze in the 80's, not the GSA. He may have broke out some GSA Dollars and dipped them if the grade was high enough. To the best of my knowledge the GSA people never did this, if they did they sure missed a lot of Morgans as the GSA Sales had quite a few that carried toning.
If It doesn't have great eye appeal, I don't want it.
<< <i>GSA Morgans are not as original as some people think. I heard a great many of them were put into trashcan type buckets and dipped. Used a broom to move the coins around. Then were placed into the GSA holder. Here again we are talking about a small number of coins. It is better to assume a coin is not original than is. One never knows what a coin has been thru in its lifetime. >>
I believe some one got the story mixed up!! John Highfill was supposed to have done this during the White Morgan craze in the 80's, not the GSA. He may have broke out some GSA Dollars and dipped them if the grade was high enough. To the best of my knowledge the GSA people never did this, if they did they sure missed a lot of Morgans as the GSA Sales had quite a few that carried toning. >>
If the GSA coins were toned they were put into different titled holders. Only the white coins made it into holders marked as "uncirculated".
But there is so much knowledge to be gleaned in a lifetime. For those who have to work at other jobs for a living there is certainly a limited amount of time to learn ALL of the pitfalls and intricasies of numismatics. According to the op's philosophy we would all be at least 80 years old before being able to fearlessly venture out to buy our first coin. I am surely not an authority on a/t vs n/t but here are a few basics I have observed over the years: All silver coins do not tone the same. Notice the way Isabellas tone as opposed to Lafayettes. Peace dollars do not tone the same as Morgans. If you see a Peace dollar that looks like a Battle creek Morgan it has probably been played with. I believe all of the coins in the Dr Benson collection are naturally toned coins and could logically be used as a grading set to compare other similarly toned coins of that era. Mostly seated liberty issues both business and proof strike. While I do agree with the op's opinion that nearly all pure white coins that are more than 50 years old have been dipped this would not include older coins that are essentially white with a light gold overlay. I definitely don't agree with the statement that 80%or more of older type coins are a/t. There are so many like the Benson coins that were kept in old Wayte Raymond holders and encapsulated by tpgs before being sold at auction. There are many other observations a newbie can make with a little patience and lots of conversation. This is not to dissuade any one one from reading all the numismatic material you can get. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer. David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>I cannot cite where I heard this from with a link, since this info was givin to me via a phone conversation with one of the toner nuts from this board. This makes a bit of sense to me as he spoke of people wanting white coins back then. Also makes sense in the fact that when these Morgans were moved around with a broom, they got marked up which is common of a GSA Morgan. If you would like this forum members name you can PM me. He is a long time collector as well. >>
As "Red Tiger" suggested, you may have your stories mixed up. A good detailed writeup on the GSA sale is in the VAM Silver Dollar book -- VanAllen state that the GSA "considered" dipping the coins, but decided not to do anything to them, except holder them. The numerous toned coins were sold as "culls" in the "Mixed CC" category.
Maybe I do have my stories mixed up. Sorry if I do. It was a rather long phone conversation. Sorry for the mix up. I will try to get to the bottom of this.
I doubt the government was messing with coins to satisfy whatever was popular at the time among collectors. More likely it's a story from somebody who messes with coins and wants to justify it by saying everybody does it, including the government.
When the gov't messes with coins its not silly stuff like dipping. Its big stuff like confiscating and melting gold, or replacing silver with copper-nickel.
<< <i>I doubt the government was messing with coins to satisfy whatever was popular at the time among collectors. More likely it's a story from somebody who messes with coins and wants to justify it by saying everybody does it, including the government. >>
I know for a fact this person would not want to dip coins as he is a toning nut. Like I said I may have got the story mixed up. Sorry
Comments
<< <i>At least two of the posters who took shots over there are ATers. One used to sell raw on eBay and has helped another forum member cheat some buyers out of money. The other is a bigger player in the AT game. I've been reliably told that they get a fair amount of their work into PCGS slab and many are sold by another forum member. Actually, some have even been sold to other forums members!
<< <i>Why is everybody sooo quick to jump on the bandwagon of "Lets Bash the truth cuz it hurts" Did he put it blunt? YES! Is there alot of truth? YES! Could it have been worded differently? Prolly so.. As to the point about orginal coins. NONE of us know for 100% sure that any coin you have not owned since it left the mint is 100% orginal. We have ideas of what we think orginal coins should look like, but nobody can be 100% certain. Who is to say that the 1820 Bust Half you own that is now all dark was not dipped in 1850, and then darkened over time. Besides define orginal? That would be different for every person. Some people say toning is not orginal, some do. It is all in the preference. >>
There are a few coins that a person can be virtually certain are 100% original. If a person bought a GSA dollar and held it until today, that person can be sure that coin is 100% original. If it is a white average looking coin, the buyer of that GSA coin can be 99% certain that it is original. If a person buys a coin that was photographed in an early catalog, and the provenance chain is known for that coin, and the coin looks the same as the old photo, that person can be virtually certain of the originality of that coin. That said, it is a vanishingly small percentage of coins that fall into the 100% certain or even 98% certain category.
No need to bash, or bandwagon. There is a kernel of truth in what is written, however, there are many self-serving statements as well. The person who wrote that stuff is not objective--they have an ax to grind, coins to sell, newbies to deceive. Readers, keep in mind of what a person's agenda might be, that includes the good folks here on this forum.
<< <i>GSA Morgans are not as original as some people think. I heard a great many of them were put into trashcan type buckets and dipped. Used a broom to move the coins around. Then were placed into the GSA holder. Here again we are talking about a small number of coins. It is better to assume a coin is not original than is. One never knows what a coin has been thru in its lifetime. >>
Please cite where you heard this from. Anything I read on the GSA Hoard never mentioned this.
<< <i>
<< <i>GSA Morgans are not as original as some people think. I heard a great many of them were put into trashcan type buckets and dipped. Used a broom to move the coins around. Then were placed into the GSA holder. Here again we are talking about a small number of coins. It is better to assume a coin is not original than is. One never knows what a coin has been thru in its lifetime. >>
Please cite where you heard this from. Anything I read on the GSA Hoard never mentioned this. >>
I cannot cite where I heard this from with a link, since this info was givin to me via a phone conversation with one of the toner nuts from this board. This makes a bit of sense to me as he spoke of people wanting white coins back then. Also makes sense in the fact that when these Morgans were moved around with a broom, they got marked up which is common of a GSA Morgan. If you would like this forum members name you can PM me. He is a long time collector as well.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>GSA Morgans are not as original as some people think. I heard a great many of them were put into trashcan type buckets and dipped. Used a broom to move the coins around. Then were placed into the GSA holder. Here again we are talking about a small number of coins. It is better to assume a coin is not original than is. One never knows what a coin has been thru in its lifetime. >>
Sounds like absolute garbage rumor to me. What upside was there for government employees to do this? Why is it not documented anywhere? Who paid for the dip, the trash cans or brooms. Government employees don't go to the toilet without permission. Government folks know nothing about dips or toning or anything else. Believe what you will, but in my opinion this sounds like absolute garbage. Anyone can say what ever they want, but without any evidence, and with government operations there would be invoices for trash cans, dip solution and brooms, as well as approval by higher ups, this is garbage.
<< <i>GSA Morgans are not as original as some people think. I heard a great many of them were put into trashcan type buckets and dipped. Used a broom to move the coins around. Then were placed into the GSA holder. Here again we are talking about a small number of coins. It is better to assume a coin is not original than is. One never knows what a coin has been thru in its lifetime. >>
I believe some one got the story mixed up!! John Highfill was supposed to have done this during the White Morgan craze in the 80's, not the GSA. He may have broke out some GSA Dollars and dipped them if the grade was high enough. To the best of my knowledge the GSA people never did this, if they did they sure missed a lot of Morgans as the GSA Sales had quite a few that carried toning.
<< <i>
<< <i>GSA Morgans are not as original as some people think. I heard a great many of them were put into trashcan type buckets and dipped. Used a broom to move the coins around. Then were placed into the GSA holder. Here again we are talking about a small number of coins. It is better to assume a coin is not original than is. One never knows what a coin has been thru in its lifetime. >>
I believe some one got the story mixed up!! John Highfill was supposed to have done this during the White Morgan craze in the 80's, not the GSA. He may have broke out some GSA Dollars and dipped them if the grade was high enough. To the best of my knowledge the GSA people never did this, if they did they sure missed a lot of Morgans as the GSA Sales had quite a few that carried toning. >>
If the GSA coins were toned they were put into different titled holders. Only the white coins made it into holders marked as "uncirculated".
I am surely not an authority on a/t vs n/t but here are a few basics I have observed over the years:
All silver coins do not tone the same. Notice the way Isabellas tone as opposed to Lafayettes.
Peace dollars do not tone the same as Morgans. If you see a Peace dollar that looks like a Battle creek Morgan it has probably been played with.
I believe all of the coins in the Dr Benson collection are naturally toned coins and could logically be used as a grading set to compare other similarly toned coins of that era. Mostly seated liberty issues both business and proof strike.
While I do agree with the op's opinion that nearly all pure white coins that are more than 50 years old have been dipped this would not include older coins that are essentially white with a light gold overlay.
I definitely don't agree with the statement that 80%or more of older type coins are a/t. There are so many like the Benson coins that were kept in old Wayte Raymond holders and encapsulated by tpgs before being sold at auction.
There are many other observations a newbie can make with a little patience and lots of conversation.
This is not to dissuade any one one from reading all the numismatic material you can get. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer.
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>I cannot cite where I heard this from with a link, since this info was givin to me via a phone conversation with one of the toner nuts from this board. This makes a bit of sense to me as he spoke of people wanting white coins back then. Also makes sense in the fact that when these Morgans were moved around with a broom, they got marked up which is common of a GSA Morgan. If you would like this forum members name you can PM me. He is a long time collector as well. >>
As "Red Tiger" suggested, you may have your stories mixed up. A good detailed writeup on the GSA sale is in the VAM Silver Dollar book -- VanAllen state that the GSA "considered" dipping the coins, but decided not to do anything to them, except holder them. The numerous toned coins were sold as "culls" in the "Mixed CC" category.
CG
<< <i>I doubt the government was messing with coins to satisfy whatever was popular at the time among collectors. More likely it's a story from somebody who messes with coins and wants to justify it by saying everybody does it, including the government. >>
I know for a fact this person would not want to dip coins as he is a toning nut. Like I said I may have got the story mixed up. Sorry