Do we as CU forum members have an obligation to protect new or naive collectors?

BiddlesBank · April 7, 2007 1:00AM

Do we as CU forum members have an obligation to protect new or naive collectors from buying cleaned coins, artificially toned coins, or overpriced coins.

I already know that we do these things but some comments I hear sound more like a lynch mob approach.

What is the best approach you can suggest. Such as, leave it the way it is, more informative discussions on these issues, make a hit list on the bad guys, or what?

BB

cointagious · April 7, 2007 1:01AM

I say FRESH MEAT!

BiddlesBank · April 7, 2007 1:03AM

<< I say FRESH MEAT! >>

Are you serving breakfast or looking for breakfast?

ajia · April 7, 2007 1:04AM

I don't see it as protect them, I would rather think we have an obligation to inform them.
In the end, we all do as we like.

Russ · April 7, 2007 1:04AM

The surest way for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

Russ, NCNE

BiddlesBank · April 7, 2007 1:05AM

<< The surest way for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. Russ, NCNE >>

Your course of action?

dpoole · April 7, 2007 1:08AM

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "obligation." I think it's true, though, that many of us have come here for information from those more experienced, as well as for the comaraderie, and that there IS sort of a noblesse oblige that, if you have gleaned wisdom and pointers from these Boards, you ought to pass it along here and there.

Everyone has their own style, human nature being what it is. I don't see any merit to trying to structure the context and style of the advice-giving. Some people just seem to become more involved and articulate in lynch mobs.

It all seems to work.

RYK · April 7, 2007 1:10AM

The forum serves to educate and inform those, at any level, who seek information and advice. It also serves to discuss controversial issues and points, discuss the attributes of individual coins and coin series, and provide camaraderie and fellowship among participants in the hobby.

The forum has no obligations whatsoever, nor do its participants, other than not bagging on PCGS and abiding by the other rules and terms as stated by our host. It would benefit the coin hobby for the more experienced collectors and dealers to treat the new collectors as they would have liked to be treated when they started in the hobby.

BiddlesBank · April 7, 2007 1:17AM

.
A few good posts so far. But the word "obligation" seems to be a bit of a stumbling block.

So here is a rhetorical question.

If we create hit lists of the bad guys are we doing it for ourselves, who already know the difference, or are we doing it because we think we have an obligation to protect someone else ?

Swampboy · April 7, 2007 1:23AM

Hit lists.
Bad guys.
If I wanted to read about criminal behavior I wouldn't be on a coin forum.

Enjoymint · April 7, 2007 1:26AM

As a newby, I would hope that nobody feels obligated to help me or prevent me from being stupid.

If you enjoy sharing your experience then I will definately enjoy reading it. If you don't enjoy conversing with unsophisticated collectors then that's fine, please don't feel obligated to do so.

Guy

BiddlesBank · April 7, 2007 1:31AM

<< Hit lists. Bad guys. If I wanted to read about criminal behavior I wouldn't be on a coin forum. >>

I agree with you but that is coming from the prospective of an experienced collector.

Howver it should be pointed out again that some CU members feel like it would be an advantage for collectors to be informed as to who the bad guys are. I am not going to repeat bad guy names but some dealers have been singled out for contempt on this forum which borders on libel. And not just a few times.

roadrunner · April 7, 2007 1:31AM

Those with experience should at least make the basic efforts to keep newcomers from falling into the same traps they did early on.
It stinks that the way to coin knowledge is through the school of hard knocks and numerous $$ losses.

Whether one does this or not is a personal decision.

roadrunner

RedTiger · April 7, 2007 1:34AM

A short answer no.

People will do what they will. Some folks are generally nice, some folks are generally *ssholes. Some are in between. This exhibits itself on the forum. A lot depends on the attitude of the new person. If they come in with a chip on their shoulder, it is going to be knocked off or mocked. It is human nature. If they come in willing to listen and learn and not take comments personally, they are going to learn a lot. A lot of stuff posted is flat out wrong or what I would see as bad advice. There is no editor to determine which is good and which is bad. In any case, even if there were an editor in chief, some stuff I see as stupid, others take as gospel.

A bad guy list is a useless exercise because it would be too big to be of any use. More useful is teaching the new collector process. Every collector will make mistakes. Some will learn from them, some will quit the hobby over them, some will blame the other person and rant and rave even when it is their fault and not the other person's fault. At the end of the day, adults have to make adult decisions. If they choose to make stupid decisions, it is on them. The forum can not protect every fool. It has saved some folks from making some bad choices. It could have saved many more, had they chosen to listen rather than act like they knew everything after a year in the hobby. Some folks came, and asked, and read, and still choose poorly. That is not a reflection on the forum, more so on that individual.

Bochiman · April 7, 2007 1:38AM

<< 

<< Hit lists. Bad guys. If I wanted to read about criminal behavior I wouldn't be on a coin forum. >>

I agree with you but that is coming from the prospective of an experienced collector.

Howver it should be pointed out again that some CU members feel like it would be an advantage for collectors to be informed as to who the bad guys are. I am not going to repeat bad guy names but some dealers have been singled out for contempt on this forum which borders on libel. And not just a few times. >>

Borders on libel? Please!
Most of the scum dealers that people mention earn that rep, and if they pulled that stuff "locally" to many people here, they would find themselves in small claims at a minimum.

For your OP...no, there is no "obligation" due to being a CU forum member. Rather, it is either something you step up to do as part of your character or something you shirk as part of your character.

I appreciate those who have gone before me, or seen things I haven't, so I can learn from them. The whole ACG thing was starting when I got back into coins and I saw it unfold. I never did buy one of those slabs and saved myself a lot of heartache thanks to Eric and some others.

People really go too far in trying to cry "libel!"

BiddlesBank · April 7, 2007 1:39AM

A bad guy list is a useless exercise because it would be too big to be of any use

RedTiger

Amen. We would all eventually be on the list once the flame throwers started in.

Russ · April 7, 2007 1:45AM

<< If you don't enjoy conversing with unsophisticated collectors then that's fine, please don't feel obligated to do so. >>

Half the fun of this hobby is precisely that. This forum has a spectacular mix of collectors from all levels and there's a lot of pleasure in seeing people seek and soak up knowledge. Plus, even the rawest newb teaches without even knowing it.

The other half of the fun is ripping dealers. Just ask Marty.

Russ, NCNE

basestealer · April 7, 2007 1:45AM

<< A bad guy list is a useless exercise because it would be too big to be of any use

RedTiger

Amen. We would all eventually be on the list once the flame throwers started in. >>

That is why it is ill advised. In my dabbling with various anti-fraud groups, I've noticed more than my fair share of those who saw opportunity to destroy nemesis' rather than focus on fraud. A few crooked dealers even posed as fraud fighters, to weed out the competition or as a front for their own operations, or whatever their motivation was. But the worst behavior is really when someone lets their "good deeds" go to their head, and believes they are invincible, or immune to scrutiny, and then uses their influence to cast shadows on innocent people simply because they are a perceived "threat" to their standing in any given community. Maybe it's human nature, or maybe it's the twisted behavior of a few, but it does happen in witch hunt environments.

AJ2525 · April 7, 2007 1:51AM

I appreciate advice and see this forum as a form of democracy in its pure form. Given my personality I tune out some and listen keenly to others. As I gain experience, I can determine if the advice I've gotten is of value or not.

6 and 10 year olds want to go play in the ice so off I run....

keets · April 7, 2007 2:01AM

i think that the only obligation we should have in Numismatics is the same we have in Life in general. it's a nice thought to believe we should be running around and stamping out evil but that's a lot to ask and amounts to crusading(does anyone remember K6AZ and his Accugrade/Hager crusade??). being honest and open while trying to be helpful and allowing newcomers to go at their own pace, ask questions and make their own mistakes is probably a good way to go.

in short, help without hurting and guide without overpowering.

FatMan · April 7, 2007 2:12AM

<< Do we as CU forum members have an obligation to protect new or naive collectors from buying cleaned coins, artificially toned coins, or overpriced coins. >>

As CU members the only obligation we have is to follow the forum rules. However, I believe most forum members have an interest is correcting misinformation disseminated on the forum under the guise of fact. Certainly when I see members write inaccurate information, or write their opinion as numismatic fact, I will call them on it. If this protects new or naive collectors on the forum, so be it. The integrity of the forum depends on it.

jmj3esq · April 7, 2007 2:52AM

No. But it would nice of us to do so.

WinPitcher · April 7, 2007 2:58AM

I would say yes, yes we do. However remember this though, No good deed goes unpunished.

Steve

richardshipp · April 7, 2007 3:02AM

Apparently not; it must be all about profit then. I'm bummed out.

Zoins · April 7, 2007 3:04AM

<< Apparently not; it must be all about profit then. I'm bummed out. >>

I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that the forum is all about profit from the replies. Are we reading different threads?

richardshipp · April 7, 2007 3:08AM

<< 

<< Apparently not; it must be all about profit then. I'm bummed out. >>

I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that the forum is all about profit from the replies. Are we reading different threads? >>

sorry, yes we are reading different threads. I'm responding in this thread based upon several posts in other threads, I'll try not to do that anymore.

Zoins · April 7, 2007 3:10AM

<< 

<< 

<< Apparently not; it must be all about profit then. I'm bummed out. >>

I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that the forum is all about profit from the replies. Are we reading different threads? >>

sorry, yes we are reading different threads. I'm responding in this thread based upon several posts in other threads, I'll try not to do that anymore. >>

I think the forum does a fairly good job of educating people about coins and avoiding pitfalls from operators and the like. There's nothing wrong with helping people out of altruism instead of obligation.

pharmer · April 7, 2007 3:10AM

I see it too, Richard. Apparently, "It's A New Day" on the CU US Coin Forum.

mirabela · April 7, 2007 3:26AM

<< the only obligation we should have in Numismatics is the same we have in Life in general >>

Well said. I think it was Voltaire who wrote something to the effect that "We are all guilty of the good we did not do."

Treat as you would be treated were the shoe on the other foot ...

Myqqy · April 7, 2007 4:29AM

I see it too, Richard. Apparently, "It's A New Day" on the CU US Coin Forum.

I've enjoyed many of the responses in this thread, but am not sure what this is in reference too....

Zoins · April 7, 2007 4:29AM

It seems like even dealers that seem to protect new collectors can sell doctored coins and continue to call them original. Should collectors be protected from dealers that behave this way and, if so, to what extent?

BiddlesBank · April 7, 2007 5:04AM

<< I see it too, Richard. Apparently, "It's A New Day" on the CU US Coin Forum. I've enjoyed many of the responses in this thread, but am not sure what this is in reference too.... >>

Myqqy. Probably a late night bonfire.

cladking · April 7, 2007 5:58AM

Some people feel it's an obligation and it's hard to fault someone trying
to do what's right. Certainly it's to everyone's benefit when they are
steered away from the sharks. It's also to everyone's benefit when
it's pointed out that something can be a bubble that can not retain its
value in the long term. This gives everyone perspective and can be bene-
ficial to all.

Bagging on anything, even something we all agree is bad (like coin doc-
tors or bad ebayers) gets pretty old.

garsmith · April 7, 2007 6:19AM

I think people do a pretty good job here on the CU of outing scam auctions, coin doctors, forgeries etc. What more can be done; you can lead a newp to infor but you can't make they read or smoething like that

tmot99 · April 7, 2007 6:51AM

<< If we create hit lists of the bad guys are we doing it for ourselves, who already know the difference, or are we doing it because we think we have an obligation to protect someone else ? >>

I didn't read all the posts so forgive me if anything changed in the meantime. I think we have an obligation to protect the hobby. A long living hobby will obviously bring in new collectors. I'd say the obligation is not to do anything with or for new collectors, but more so, the obligation is to protect the coins.

ricko · April 7, 2007 6:54AM

We should endeavour to promote the display of accurate information and identify scams or misleading information. The uninformed, if they participate here, should read and learn - in the end, it is up to them to protect themselves. Cheers, RickO

BiddlesBank · April 7, 2007 7:54AM

<< Half the fun of this hobby is precisely that. This forum has a spectacular mix of collectors from all levels and there's a lot of pleasure in seeing people seek and soak up knowledge. Plus, even the rawest newb teaches without even knowing it. The other half of the fun is ripping dealers. Just ask Marty. Russ, NCNE >>

Russ

You have a great sense of humor and merry heart. Much appreciated.

BB

SDSportsFan · April 7, 2007 8:21AM

I don't believe we are "obligated" to protect any collector from making "bad buys". We as humans tend to learn more from our mistakes than we do from our successes, so it is constructive to fail occassionally (just not too often, and hopefully not losing too much $$ in the process). The key is to learn from one's mistakes.

That being said, I think we all would appreciate being informed that a prospective purchase might be bad. We could then ask why the purchase is ill-advised, and in that way, we learn to help ourselves in the future. It just goes back to the "Golden Rule"...all of us would like an occassional assist, so why not provide that same courtesy to others if/when the opportunity arises.

Steve

RichieURich · April 7, 2007 9:10AM

Everyone starts in the hobby with no experience or knowledge. You gain experience from your own actions and you gain knowledge from others, whether written or vocal. Those people with more experience should provide knowledge to those with less experience. Whether or not you've ever burned your hand on a hot stove, you should teach children that a stove can burn your hand. Similarly, whether or not you've ever burned on such an item, it is a good idea to inform people that 1878-CC Trade dollars in AU bought for $100 in online auctions, are almost always counterfeits.

mozin · April 7, 2007 9:45AM

It should make no difference who is needing protection from from buying cleaned coins, artificially toned coins, or overpriced coins. New collectors and old should be treated the same. Most of us will gladly give whatever help we can, with no obligation whatsoever to do so. "We don't need no stinking badges", or a bunch of forum rules to know how to treat other human beings nicely.

KISS is the way; keep it simple stupid.

ziggy29 · April 7, 2007 9:51AM

I wouldn't say we have an "obligation," but I think most of us have a sturdy moral compass when it comes to thwarting ripoffs and scams and thus feel personally compelled to try to put a stop to it.

ipmman · April 7, 2007 9:58AM

A Moral obligation, yes.

Of couse, if anyone here tried to trick or lie to a new collector, I am certain they would be given a new "you know what" by many of the posters here. I wouldn't be nice about it.

So, even without the post being made here about the subject, in reality new collectors here seem to be carefully watched over by many members. That is a strong reason why this is a great forum.

Longacre · April 7, 2007 10:08AM

An obligation? No. But as collectors, we should be willing to help out those in need.

However, I think newbies have an obligation to ask questions and seek knowledge to assist themselves in their quest to become better numismatists.

RYK · April 7, 2007 10:09AM

<< I wouldn't say we have an "obligation," but I think most of us have a sturdy moral compass when it comes to thwarting ripoffs and scams and thus feel personally compelled to try to put a stop to it. >>

Plus, it makes for good sport!

tradernicks · April 7, 2007 10:11AM

I think we all should FEEL obligated to help others, in numismatics and other aspects of life. Don't Be Evil. It's not a hard concept...it's Googles motto, and another reason I like them.
Noobs or non collectors should be able to post here and get information. Why would there even be forums like this if they weren't for sharing info? Ah, I guess bragging rights is a reason but helping newbs is more important, eh?
tradernick

Bear · April 7, 2007 10:18AM

It is the wise newbie that will ask for help

before they did themselves a whole too deep.

There are many dangers for the newbie collector

some obvious and many subtle. There are very good dealers,

very bad dealers and dealers that just don't know. Of 20th Century

and earlier coins, perhaps 60% have been dipped and perhaps 30%

or more have been seriously doctored. Some dipping , carefully done, may be OK, most

are not OK. Just because you are dealing with another collector, doesn't mean

that they are honest or fair. If a newbie spends 6 months or more

on this Forum, they will learn most of what they need to know. Who to buy from, who to avoid,

what to buy and what to stay away from.

StampAlarm · April 7, 2007 10:31AM

I'd like to help, but I'm still learning myself. I have fun with my giveawys and that's all I can personally do.

Jerry

Fairlaneman · April 7, 2007 10:47AM

Telling it like it is will get you stamped as a jerk off around here. If you do not mind being labled so then put forth your experiences for the newb and he or she can go from there.

Ken

PrivateCoinCollector · April 7, 2007 10:49AM

<< The surest way for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

Russ, NCNE >>

slucas · April 7, 2007 11:01AM

As a newbie, i have been much impressed with your respect and tolerance of my questions. Not one person has insulted me over one of my "dumb" questions. In fact, i get several view points. Post people who are passionate about anything love to help and inform newbies. I know i do on the watch forums and computer forums. Some day, hopefully, i'll be able to contribute here. I thank you all in advance of my next "dumb" question.

BiddlesBank · April 7, 2007 11:16AM

<< As a newbie, i have been much impressed with your respect and tolerance of my questions. Not one person has insulted me over one of my "dumb" questions. In fact, i get several view points. Post people who are passionate about anything love to help and inform newbies. I know i do on the watch forums and computer forums. Some day, hopefully, i'll be able to contribute here. I thank you all in advance of my next "dumb" question. >>

Slucas

Your appreciation is welcomed by the many who post here.

Thank you.

BB

Do we as CU forum members have an obligation to protect new or naive collectors?

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