Basestealer, I think you are confusing design relief and strike. The two are not the same. Relief measures the depth of the design as engraved. Strike is determined by how completely the metal fills the dies during the minting process. A coin can be struck multiple times but if the metal does not fill the die the strike is not full and considered weak regardless of relief.
You are correct that the 21 Peace dollar is a high relief design. But you are wrong that 21 Peace dollars are typically full strikes. I'm no expert on 21 Peace dollars so I do not know if they were stuck one, twice, or dozens of times. However, if they were struck more than once I suspect it was because they were having a terrible time getting an acceptable strike on the coins at all.
I think the sum of all of your actions on this board speaks for itself if anyone actually does a search as you suggested (just did), rather enlightening to those that normally wouldn't GAF. >>
The sum of my "actions"! LOL. Name an "action" you find unsuitable. Name one. >>
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that they were only statements. I encourage everyone to just go ahead and do as you suggest and do a search of all your posts here.
"The fact that they were struck twice, in high relief, is indisputable."
A. There is no evidence of any kind that any Peace dollars, including the sandblast proofs, were struck more than once.
"...were struck as the original sculpter [sic] intended (contrary to what was posted here, the sculpter [sic] did not agree with the changes)."
B. The designer, deFrancisci, was present when the sword was cut off the reverse hub on Dec. 23, and he was again present on Dec. 28 at 8:30am when the first production pieces were struck. Neither he nor engraver George Morgan thought the coins were as good as they should have been, and wrote to one another to that effect. Failure of the 1921s to strike up properly led directly to the 1922 high relief and medium relief experiments. Both experiments failed and deFrancisci made new, low relief models in early February 1922 that were used for the balance of production.
You can learn all about the Peace dollar design and initial production by borrowing a copy of "Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921" (published 2005) from the ANA library, or your local public library (via ILL). The book reproduces many of the original letters, and has photos of the original designs and the bronze cast the mint worked from. It also tells you exactly were to look in the archives for contemporary documents so you can do your own research.
<< <i>Basestealer, I think you are confusing design relief and strike. The two are not the same. Relief measures the depth of the design as engraved. Strike is determined by how completely the metal fills the dies during the minting process. A coin can be struck multiple times but if the metal does not fill the die the strike is not full and considered weak regardless of relief.
You are correct that the 21 Peace dollar is a high relief design. But you are wrong that 21 Peace dollars are typically full strikes. I'm no expert on 21 Peace dollars so I do not know if they were stuck one, twice, or dozens of times. However, if they were struck more than once I suspect it was because they were having a terrible time getting an acceptable strike on the coins at all. >>
Yes, that is correct. I meant to say, which I've said since my OP, it didn't appear as high relief as many I've seen. It is also true that if we don't look at the hair and focus on the "peace" and date and other features, those are weakly struck in later issues. Hair is not the only facet to a coin that I look at or focus on. In any event, the die changes in subsequent issues made for a worse coin, in my opinion, regardless if it brought about more detail above the ear.
<< <i>"The fact that they were struck twice, in high relief, is indisputable."
A. There is no evidence of any kind that any Peace dollars, including the sandblast proofs, were struck more than once.
"...were struck as the original sculpter [sic] intended (contrary to what was posted here, the sculpter [sic] did not agree with the changes)."
B. The designer, deFrancisci, was present when the sword was cut off the reverse hub on Dec. 23, and he was again present on Dec. 28 at 8:30am when the first production pieces were struck. Neither he nor engraver George Morgan thought the coins were as good as they should have been, and wrote to one another to that effect. Failure of the 1921s to strike up properly led directly to the 1922 high relief and medium relief experiments. Both experiments failed and deFrancisci made new, low relief models in early February 1922 that were used for the balance of production.
You can learn all about the Peace dollar design and initial production by borrowing a copy of "Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921" (published 2005) from the ANA library, or your local public library (via ILL). The book reproduces many of the original letters, and has photos of the original designs and the bronze cast the mint worked from. It also tells you exactly were to look in the archives for contemporary documents so you can do your own research. >>
I believe the 1921 peace dollars were struck twice to bring out the details. I believe deFrancisci's original sculpture was best represented by the 1921 issue and that he objected to the lower relief changes that followed. I believe that is written in several books. I believe what is written in books is not always accurate, and I believe this conversation is over, and that anyone truly interested in the history can find out more until they are satisfied. I am satisfied with what I know.
Peace dollars are hard to find in really nice condition. The problems with most is the condition of the cheek and this one does have hits on the cheek. I see it as around a 63.
<< <i>Peace dollars are hard to find in really nice condition. The problems with most is the condition of the cheek and this one does have hits on the cheek. I see it as around a 63. >>
Thank you.
I didn't mean to derail the OP's thread.
I like it because it's a 1921 but its not the look I go for.
If I owned it, I'd probably call it a 64, if I was buying it, I'd call it to be a 63. Either way, I'd keep it raw.
It is also true that if we don't look at the hair and focus on the "peace" and date and other features, those are weakly struck in later issues.
i think you're still missing a central point of the whole discussion which was so clearly explained by Fatman, to wit:I think you are confusing design relief and strike. The two are not the same. Relief measures the depth of the design as engraved. Strike is determined by how completely the metal fills the dies during the minting process. A coin can be struck multiple times but if the metal does not fill the die the strike is not full and considered weak regardless of relief.
while the lettering may indeed be faint, as the overall design of subsequent Peace Dollars is, it isn't due to strike, it's due to the very low relief design.
Well, I didn't intend to start any debates on strikes. My opinion is that the coin has above average strike and the hits are consistent with a 63. I don't believe its overdipped, but I am sure it has been dipped before. I feel its a strong 63, NGC thought it was a 64. Thanks for the opinions and comments.
The 1921 peace dollars were struck with different dies and at a stronger pressure than subsequent dates, and simply do not have all the same hair details as most Peace dollars. This variation in no way prevents those coins from being considered fully struck, as long as they possess all the details of their particular sub-type. Strike refers to the impression a coin has received after it has left the dies that were used. This is an extremely variable factor, and its ultimate determination depends on a number of subfactors, including but not limited to: the depth of the strike, the boldness of the impression, and the detail of the strike. If strike is defined as, "The force or pressure and angle with which the dies are struck, the quality of the planchet, the softness or hardness of the metal planchet, the heat of the planchet at the time of striking, the condition of the dies and other factors combine to produce a good or bad image or design on a coin.", then one can clearly see that the 1921 peace dollar is indeed a properly struck, and a fully struck coin, whereas preceding years were not (based on that definition). However, a unique feature develops with this issue in that the fully struck 1921 dollars do not show much of the sharpness of detail as their weaker struck counterparts, especially in the hair, leading many to conclude that the '21 was weakly struck. One could argue it either way, as it depends on many factors and individual definitions of those factors that ultimately lead to a conclusion--a conclusion that is not universally accepted.
The peace dollar designer, Anthony DeFrancisci, was a designer of medals. His original peace dollar design, as struck in 1921, resembled a medal more than a coin, but it was the only year in which DeFrancisci's original design was struck. It was Morgan who changed the dies in 1922, at the request of the mint, to correct "problems" (one being that the coins were difficult to stack in such high relief, and another that the dies were constantly breaking). Most people consider high relief coins to be well struck. Most people also agree that the changes made in 1922 lessened the Peace dollar's asthetic appeal. "Most people" being those familiar with the issue, and those who have any business dabbling in it, which does not necessarily include CU forum wannabes. And so while one can argue that the peace dollar was "weakly struck" in 1921, one could only do so on the basis of one factor that determines strike, and that is the sharpness of detail (the hair) not being brought out fully because of the high relief (an indictation of a strong strike) which resulted from dies wearing out prematurely. And if we look at the '22 through '35 peace dollars, we could argue that they were weakly struck because of the broad, flat design that lacked boldness, struck in low relief, that wore down quickly. Or we could say, there's more sharpness and detail in the hair, so it's a "strong strike". It appears that whatever a few CU gurus decide, that is what the follow-kaks decide as well. But it doesn't necessarily make it true, nor does it make it false. It is simply a matter of opinion, which clearly isn't tolerated on the kool-aid forum.
I do not believe that those who disagree are wrong, I simply believe that my interpretation is correct, and of course it is my interpretation. If you do not agree, there is no need to be rude. There is no need to suggest I move to beanie babies. Whether or not I believe the '21 peace dollars were strong or weak strikes has absolutely no impact on the quality of my own collection or my knowledge of the hobby in general. It is the perversion of this hobby, much like sportscards, that turn good people away--the competition with "registry sets" and the egotistical one upmanship on the forums that drive ne'er do wells to act like rabid animals in their ever fervent desire for self-gratification through the humilation, embarassment, or loss of others. To "share" is to appreciate what you are shown, not to shove your crap at others while stomping on everything else in the process.
<< <i>and the egotistical one upmanship on the forums that drive ne'er do wells to act like rabid animals in their ever fervent desire for self-gratification through the humilation, embarassment, or loss of others. >>
<< <i>and the egotistical one upmanship on the forums that drive ne'er do wells to act like rabid animals in their ever fervent desire for self-gratification through the humilation, embarassment, or loss of others. >>
You mean crap like this?
<< <i>I know my stuff. Sorry you don't. >>
Russ, NCNE >>
And that was in response to this
<< <i>Man, you must'a been chopping some of them up and snorting them at the disco. They are NOTORIOUS for not being fully struck up. >>
<< <i>I was going to say the opposite of everyone here, that it has a rather weak strike for a '21, a year with notoriously strong strikes. And again the opposite, I wasn't impressed with the luster. >>
??????
Maybe he meant a notorious lack of strong strikes?
<< <i>Basestealer, I think you are confusing design relief and strike. The two are not the same. Relief measures the depth of the design as engraved. Strike is determined by how completely the metal fills the dies during the minting process. A coin can be struck multiple times but if the metal does not fill the die the strike is not full and considered weak regardless of relief.
You are correct that the 21 Peace dollar is a high relief design. But you are wrong that 21 Peace dollars are typically full strikes. I'm no expert on 21 Peace dollars so I do not know if they were stuck one, twice, or dozens of times. However, if they were struck more than once I suspect it was because they were having a terrible time getting an acceptable strike on the coins at all. >>
Couldn't have said it better myself - basestealer has confused a high relief coin with a sharply struck coin - they are 2 separate and distinct concepts - and BECAUSE they were high relief, most were poorly struck - not enough metal movement to fill the deeper die recesses
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
<< <i> It appears that whatever a few CU gurus decide, that is what the follow-kaks decide as well. But it doesn't necessarily make it true, nor does it make it false. It is simply a matter of opinion, which clearly isn't tolerated on the kool-aid forum.
>>
Check the rest of the numismatic world on this, please don't limit yourself to this forum, you'll find that you are in the minority,
by a long, long way.
but hey, i'm sure you're right....
one day we'll all agree that a strong strike has nothing to do with how strong the strike is!
basestealer, it might be good to show a little humility now and then ... there are at least a few real numismatists that hang out here ... get off your high horse and you might learn something
I had a bad day ... my son's car was stolen last night ... we found it missing this morning ... and after quite a lot of talking and detective work and the like ... well, I'm still angry and not in a cheerful mood to say the least ...
so ... I'm going to say what I really think ...
some people open mouth and insert their foot ... but in this thread, you sir have opened your cheeks and inserted your whole head
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Brucewar.....I know I have said this in previous threads but that is the most amazingly struck 21 peace that I have ever seen. Congratulations on owning it.
Nice 1921, Bruce...has many of the characteristics of pieces from the first batch of coins struck on Dec 28. Do you know anything about the coin's background?
All I can tell you about its background is this. I got the coin about a year ago from a local Antique shop. Coin was marked BU and priced at BU Price for the time... $225.00 I did not haggle with the price and took it. Before that I cannot tell you were the coin has been, or how it got the colors.
Comments
You are correct that the 21 Peace dollar is a high relief design. But you are wrong that 21 Peace dollars are typically full strikes. I'm no expert on 21 Peace dollars so I do not know if they were stuck one, twice, or dozens of times. However, if they were struck more than once I suspect it was because they were having a terrible time getting an acceptable strike on the coins at all.
<< <i>
<< <i>basestealer,
I think the sum of all of your actions on this board speaks for itself if anyone actually does a search as you suggested (just did), rather enlightening to those that normally wouldn't GAF. >>
The sum of my "actions"! LOL. Name an "action" you find unsuitable. Name one. >>
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that they were only statements. I encourage everyone to just go ahead and do as you suggest and do a search of all your posts here.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
A. There is no evidence of any kind that any Peace dollars, including the sandblast proofs, were struck more than once.
"...were struck as the original sculpter [sic] intended (contrary to what was posted here, the sculpter [sic] did not agree with the changes)."
B. The designer, deFrancisci, was present when the sword was cut off the reverse hub on Dec. 23, and he was again present on Dec. 28 at 8:30am when the first production pieces were struck. Neither he nor engraver George Morgan thought the coins were as good as they should have been, and wrote to one another to that effect. Failure of the 1921s to strike up properly led directly to the 1922 high relief and medium relief experiments. Both experiments failed and deFrancisci made new, low relief models in early February 1922 that were used for the balance of production.
You can learn all about the Peace dollar design and initial production by borrowing a copy of "Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921" (published 2005) from the ANA library, or your local public library (via ILL). The book reproduces many of the original letters, and has photos of the original designs and the bronze cast the mint worked from. It also tells you exactly were to look in the archives for contemporary documents so you can do your own research.
<< <i>Basestealer, I think you are confusing design relief and strike. The two are not the same. Relief measures the depth of the design as engraved. Strike is determined by how completely the metal fills the dies during the minting process. A coin can be struck multiple times but if the metal does not fill the die the strike is not full and considered weak regardless of relief.
You are correct that the 21 Peace dollar is a high relief design. But you are wrong that 21 Peace dollars are typically full strikes. I'm no expert on 21 Peace dollars so I do not know if they were stuck one, twice, or dozens of times. However, if they were struck more than once I suspect it was because they were having a terrible time getting an acceptable strike on the coins at all. >>
Yes, that is correct. I meant to say, which I've said since my OP, it didn't appear as high relief as many I've seen. It is also true that if we don't look at the hair and focus on the "peace" and date and other features, those are weakly struck in later issues. Hair is not the only facet to a coin that I look at or focus on. In any event, the die changes in subsequent issues made for a worse coin, in my opinion, regardless if it brought about more detail above the ear.
<< <i>"The fact that they were struck twice, in high relief, is indisputable."
A. There is no evidence of any kind that any Peace dollars, including the sandblast proofs, were struck more than once.
"...were struck as the original sculpter [sic] intended (contrary to what was posted here, the sculpter [sic] did not agree with the changes)."
B. The designer, deFrancisci, was present when the sword was cut off the reverse hub on Dec. 23, and he was again present on Dec. 28 at 8:30am when the first production pieces were struck. Neither he nor engraver George Morgan thought the coins were as good as they should have been, and wrote to one another to that effect. Failure of the 1921s to strike up properly led directly to the 1922 high relief and medium relief experiments. Both experiments failed and deFrancisci made new, low relief models in early February 1922 that were used for the balance of production.
You can learn all about the Peace dollar design and initial production by borrowing a copy of "Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921" (published 2005) from the ANA library, or your local public library (via ILL). The book reproduces many of the original letters, and has photos of the original designs and the bronze cast the mint worked from. It also tells you exactly were to look in the archives for contemporary documents so you can do your own research. >>
I believe the 1921 peace dollars were struck twice to bring out the details. I believe deFrancisci's original sculpture was best represented by the 1921 issue and that he objected to the lower relief changes that followed. I believe that is written in several books. I believe what is written in books is not always accurate, and I believe this conversation is over, and that anyone truly interested in the history can find out more until they are satisfied. I am satisfied with what I know.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
Touché!
<< <i>Peace dollars are hard to find in really nice condition. The problems with most is the condition of the cheek and this one does have hits on the cheek. I see it as around a 63. >>
Thank you.
I didn't mean to derail the OP's thread.
I like it because it's a 1921 but its not the look I go for.
If I owned it, I'd probably call it a 64, if I was buying it, I'd call it to be a 63. Either way, I'd keep it raw.
i think you're still missing a central point of the whole discussion which was so clearly explained by Fatman, to wit:I think you are confusing design relief and strike. The two are not the same. Relief measures the depth of the design as engraved. Strike is determined by how completely the metal fills the dies during the minting process. A coin can be struck multiple times but if the metal does not fill the die the strike is not full and considered weak regardless of relief.
while the lettering may indeed be faint, as the overall design of subsequent Peace Dollars is, it isn't due to strike, it's due to the very low relief design.
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
1921's were the best struck peace dollars.
Man, you must'a been chopping some of them up and snorting them at the disco.
I know my stuff. Sorry you don't.
eom. >>
Perhaps you should stick to cardboard. However, I suspect the cardboard collectors might suggest sticking to beanie babies.
The peace dollar designer, Anthony DeFrancisci, was a designer of medals. His original peace dollar design, as struck in 1921, resembled a medal more than a coin, but it was the only year in which DeFrancisci's original design was struck. It was Morgan who changed the dies in 1922, at the request of the mint, to correct "problems" (one being that the coins were difficult to stack in such high relief, and another that the dies were constantly breaking). Most people consider high relief coins to be well struck. Most people also agree that the changes made in 1922 lessened the Peace dollar's asthetic appeal. "Most people" being those familiar with the issue, and those who have any business dabbling in it, which does not necessarily include CU forum wannabes. And so while one can argue that the peace dollar was "weakly struck" in 1921, one could only do so on the basis of one factor that determines strike, and that is the sharpness of detail (the hair) not being brought out fully because of the high relief (an indictation of a strong strike) which resulted from dies wearing out prematurely. And if we look at the '22 through '35 peace dollars, we could argue that they were weakly struck because of the broad, flat design that lacked boldness, struck in low relief, that wore down quickly. Or we could say, there's more sharpness and detail in the hair, so it's a "strong strike". It appears that whatever a few CU gurus decide, that is what the follow-kaks decide as well. But it doesn't necessarily make it true, nor does it make it false. It is simply a matter of opinion, which clearly isn't tolerated on the kool-aid forum.
I do not believe that those who disagree are wrong, I simply believe that my interpretation is correct, and of course it is my interpretation. If you do not agree, there is no need to be rude. There is no need to suggest I move to beanie babies. Whether or not I believe the '21 peace dollars were strong or weak strikes has absolutely no impact on the quality of my own collection or my knowledge of the hobby in general. It is the perversion of this hobby, much like sportscards, that turn good people away--the competition with "registry sets" and the egotistical one upmanship on the forums that drive ne'er do wells to act like rabid animals in their ever fervent desire for self-gratification through the humilation, embarassment, or loss of others. To "share" is to appreciate what you are shown, not to shove your crap at others while stomping on everything else in the process.
<< <i>Perhaps you should stick to cardboard. However, I suspect the cardboard collectors might suggest sticking to beanie babies. >>
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>and the egotistical one upmanship on the forums that drive ne'er do wells to act like rabid animals in their ever fervent desire for self-gratification through the humilation, embarassment, or loss of others. >>
You mean crap like this?
<< <i>I know my stuff. Sorry you don't. >>
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>and the egotistical one upmanship on the forums that drive ne'er do wells to act like rabid animals in their ever fervent desire for self-gratification through the humilation, embarassment, or loss of others. >>
You mean crap like this?
<< <i>I know my stuff. Sorry you don't. >>
Russ, NCNE >>
And that was in response to this
<< <i>Man, you must'a been chopping some of them up and snorting them at the disco. They are NOTORIOUS for not being fully struck up. >>
Tit for tat. Be honest in your assessment.
<< <i>basestealer, just admit that you kind of screwed the pooch on this one, i mean it's stupid to argue the point. it's unarguable. >>
<< <i>I was going to say the opposite of everyone here, that it has a rather weak strike for a '21, a year with notoriously strong strikes. And again the opposite, I wasn't impressed with the luster. >>
??????
Maybe he meant a notorious lack of strong strikes?
63/64 IMHO,
-Ron
<< <i>Basestealer, I think you are confusing design relief and strike. The two are not the same. Relief measures the depth of the design as engraved. Strike is determined by how completely the metal fills the dies during the minting process. A coin can be struck multiple times but if the metal does not fill the die the strike is not full and considered weak regardless of relief.
You are correct that the 21 Peace dollar is a high relief design. But you are wrong that 21 Peace dollars are typically full strikes. I'm no expert on 21 Peace dollars so I do not know if they were stuck one, twice, or dozens of times. However, if they were struck more than once I suspect it was because they were having a terrible time getting an acceptable strike on the coins at all. >>
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>I'm surprised by the grade NGC assigned it, but NGC is never consistent IMO. >>
It takes an awful lot of consistency to never be consistent....
<< <i> It appears that whatever a few CU gurus decide, that is what the follow-kaks decide as well. But it doesn't necessarily make it true, nor does it make it false. It is simply a matter of opinion, which clearly isn't tolerated on the kool-aid forum.
>>
Check the rest of the numismatic world on this, please don't limit yourself to this forum, you'll find that you are in the minority,
by a long, long way.
but hey, i'm sure you're right....
one day we'll all agree that a strong strike has nothing to do with how strong the strike is!
basestealer, it might be good to show a little humility now and then ... there are at least a few real numismatists that hang out here ... get off your high horse and you might learn something
I had a bad day ... my son's car was stolen last night ... we found it missing this morning ... and after quite a lot of talking and detective work and the like ... well, I'm still angry and not in a cheerful mood to say the least ...
so ... I'm going to say what I really think ...
some people open mouth and insert their foot ... but in this thread, you sir have opened your cheeks and inserted your whole head
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
U.S. Type Set
<< <i>That is a BEAUTY Bruce! >>
What from I read.. you have a pretty nice one as well!