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Question about the 1808 S.277 Large Cent-- is there a 12-1/4 stars variety for this date?
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
I was taking a look at one of the many upcoming Stack's auctions. For the experts in large cents, is there a 12- 1/4 star variety for this date that is recognized? I believe that the stars were punched in individually so that is probably why there is an extra quarter star (probably a mistake in punching). Would the 12-1/4 star variety be a separate variety or would it be properly classified as a separate die state? Here is the listing:
1808 S.277. Extremely Fine-40.
Here is a lovely example with a hard glossy flan that is far superior to the usual planchet stock of the era. Microscopic granularity can be found under the closest scrutiny but is nearly indistinguishable from the die flow lines found throughout the fields. This example is of the twelve stars variety although this particular coin displays approximately twelve and a quarter stars. The dies were well used by the time this specimen was created as evidenced by the multitude of die clashing, cracking and buckling found especially at the reverse. A wonderfully eye appealing chocolate brown example.
1808 S.277. Extremely Fine-40.
Here is a lovely example with a hard glossy flan that is far superior to the usual planchet stock of the era. Microscopic granularity can be found under the closest scrutiny but is nearly indistinguishable from the die flow lines found throughout the fields. This example is of the twelve stars variety although this particular coin displays approximately twelve and a quarter stars. The dies were well used by the time this specimen was created as evidenced by the multitude of die clashing, cracking and buckling found especially at the reverse. A wonderfully eye appealing chocolate brown example.
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
The plate coin in Breen's Encyclopedia of US and Colonial Coins for S-277 actually has a stronger '13th' star (actually Star 1) than this piece, and the reverse break is not as pronounced. The description of the variety ascribes the weakness in the first star to the failure of the reverse die.
Breen calls it a 12 star, but I think that's misleading beause the die had 13 stars punched into it, but Star 1 just has a poor rate of showing up clearly. There are two thirteen star varieties noted in Breen as well, S-278 and S-279.
Thanks for sharing!
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
Beats me as far as varieties are concerned.
It's still quite a nice coin.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
I think the justification for calling it "die stage" is the off and on nature of the missing star(s), rather than a "die state" which starts out unworn, and wears down to its eventual final (and sometimes terminal) die state.
How about it, large cent experts, what do you call this, "die stage" or "die state"?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
So I guess the difference would be in that die states can be timelined while die stages proceed in a variable fashion.
So the die stages depend on striking pressure/position of the dies and strike/planchet quality moreso than the actual quality of the dies?
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
Die state and die stage are sometimes used interchangeably, but actually have two entirely distinct meanings. Alan Herbert described the die state and die stage as : Die State : “the amount of wear, possibly excessive use, and possibly even abrasion from “cleaning”, that a die has endured”; and Die Stage: “the emergence of new “die markers” signs of damage or break up. Most often these are cracks, chips, or larger breaks in the die surface, which translate into raised corresponding marks on coins struck by that die”
<< <i>Nice thought provoking thread. The S-277 obverse and reverse dies are unique to the variety. The obverse die does have 13 stars punched in . The term 12 star variety is simply a term used to describe the apparent differences in the fully struck examples and the weakly struck examples sans the first star. Breen says that the first star is evident or not as a result of strike quality and not wear. Breen also states that the lowest star may be evident or not in any die state- early middle or late. So if the star is not evident in an earlier die state but in a later this would seem to support his claim of strike quality. Noyes states that the reverse die sinking (in the area of the arc crack) causes the weakness in the stars on the obverse. According to Breen the reverse die sinking begins in state II (early to middle) and the arc cracks starts in state IV or the middle die state and expanding as the die state progresses to the later state. If this is the case then the later the die state and progression of the wear of the die, the less and less you would see the star - in other words you would find early die state examples with perfect reverses or nearly so with the star and later die states with more obvious die sinking and cracks with less or no star showing. Longacre's example is a late die state. It would be interesting to find and early die state example with a perfect reverse or nearly so where the first star is not evident. This would support Breen's statement. If Breen is correct then the star issue is neither a die state or die stage effect. If you take Noyes' statement associating the star quality with the sinking of the die and the progression of the die state, then the star is would be associated with the middle - later die states, still not classified as a die state and not a stage. It would be interestig to hear other opinions on this >>
1798 collector beat me to the punch on this one.
FWIW, I agree with the above assertion, and after reviewing all the examples I could find, I believe that there is some striking variability among these coins (as is quite common on these classic head large cents), the star in general seems to vary along with the die crack and sinking on the reverse. In other words, I agree with Noyes rather than Breen on this one.
To get back to Longacre's question -- I consider it a die state, and the 11 1/4 star is not a separate variety at all.
Here's the earliest state I could find:
It has the strongest first star of ANY of the examples I could find, and it seems as soon as the reverse die break happens, the star gets weaker and weaker -- supporting Noyes' theory on this. However, the first star does vary quite a bit on reverses that seem to have a consistent break, which could be explained by both variability in striking pressure and/or die sinking/buckling (which is tough to judge by photos).
As an aside, it is worth noting the above coin, even without the die break, already shows weakness on the reverse in this area. Perhaps a misaligned die contributed to this effect!?!?
Here's a later die state with an interesting 1st star -- I only show this because if you were going to call a coin a "12 1/2" star, this one seems to match the description the best:
The above coin is the only one I found with this obvious "half star" effect, so please don't get the idea all of them look like this.
If anybody is interested, here's a link to all the s.277 on Heritage.
Have fun...Mike
"The Breen-Borckardt Encyclopedia of Large Cents states that the 'first star may be visible or invisible in any die state depending on striking quality and wear.'"
I believe that this die had a weakly punched star 1, or a weak star 1 based on an uneven initial lapping of the die. The latter makes better sense in light of 1798centcollector's great summary. This cent, like many or perhaps the majority of early classic head cents, were struck slightly off-center. Off-center strikes of the S-277 variety show different parts of star 1. Here's mine:
Note that my coin is the same late die state, but nearly the entire opposite side of the star shows on my example, versus the example that Longacre first posted. This is due to the relative position of the die to the planchet, with the strike of my coin being more to the northeast. Thus, I consider this variety one where star 1 was heavily lapped early in the coin making process, perhaps before the first coin was struck from the die pair. Off-center strikes therefore led to various parts of the star showing, sometime complete. The upset rim of the coin undoubtedly had an effect on the ultimate outcome, as did striking pressure, variations in planchet thickness, and the lack of a close collar.
One of my favorite coins, BTW.
Hoot
Hoot
Mike's first photo from Heritage appears to these tired eyes to be an earlier die state , struck somewhat offcenter and with weaker stars 1 and 2 than Noyes' later die state - but more well defined stars 1 and 2 than Longacres image of the late die state which is similiar to the Noyes example.
<< <i>I just noticed that Noyes illustrates ( Noyes photo 21749) the variety in his book with a late die state example that is very similiar to Longacre's example, but struck more on center than any illustrated here so far, or in either reference. Stars 1 and 2 are very well defined along with the bottoms of the numerials in the date. Off hand this would then seem to contradict the assertion that the weakness is related to the die sinking and advancing die state. >>
Exactly!
I think that Mike's examples illustrate both an early and late die state, and a fairly well-centered and fairly off-centered strike. The off-centered strike is LDS, but it's pretty far southwest. I believe that the combination of factors - a worn die, an off-center strike, the postiion of the upset portion of the rim, and small variations in planchet thickness may have contributed to the extraordinary variations in this variety. It would be tough to draw firm conclusions without a fair number of examples, but from the limited number I've seen, I'm not convinced that the "disappearing star" (#1) is simple die wear, rather I like the idea that lapping may have followed a clash that may have even broken the reverse die in the first place. It would be interesting to know if this variety has a few examples in early or intermediate die states that have clashes in the area of star 1 and the northwest reverse.
Here's the reverse of mine, where the northwest of the reverse is strongly sunken:
Hoot
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Mike's early die state example above does not yet exhibit (from what I can tell) the arc crack, but does exhibit the initial die sinking (bulge) as Breen describes appearing in State II. Could an explanation for the later appearance of the reverse arc crack be due to the weak reverese die in this area exhibiting the sinking and later resulting in the arc crack around this area as the reverse die weakens??
The evidence does suggest that die lapping along with the degree of strike centeredness may be determiner of the quality of the stars in the lower left obverse. The condition of the reverse die opposite this obverse area of weakness could not have helped this situation either.
I have always heard of this referred to as a die state, and I think that's what Noyes was saying. I tend to agree with him over Breen on several issues concerning early copper, this being among the most notable. I'd love to find one of these in "terminal state" like the one shown in Longacre's first post. That coin itself is a terrific example
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Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
Seems like a plausible explanation! Thanks for your's and mike's drilling into this and Longacre's post! I also like Amanda's and RichieURich's discussions on die state vs. stage. All worthwhile musings.
Hoot
Anyone care to take a wild guess at the Classic Head Large cent I will now be looking for for my type collection?
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
Given the large area of buckling/cracking on the reverse, why is it that only Stars 1 and sometimes Star 2 are affected? It would seem that Stars 3 and 4 would also be affected as well. Or it that further evidence of what Hoot and 1798 are discussing related to centeredness and strike pressure being the true cause of this missing 13th star?
I wonder if someone should submit this thread to EAC's Region 8 Newsletter. It would be interesting to get another audience's viewpoint on this issue.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Given the large area of buckling/cracking on the reverse, why is it that only Stars 1 and sometimes Star 2 are affected? >>
I think that rotation of the dies relative to one another may account for only stars 1 and 2 being affected. Also, however, the date tends to smear into the edge of the coin - just take a look at my example. The off-center strikes just exaggerate the effects.
This would be a good thread to refer to Reigon 8.
Hoot
Amanda send us a picture when you locate and purchase that special S-277.
Can one of you submit the thread to Region 8? I am not sure how to do it (other than maybe providing a link), and you might know the "insiders" who will be more likely to publish it. Thanks!
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Hoot/1798--
Can one of you submit the thread to Region 8? I am not sure how to do it (other than maybe providing a link), and you might know the "insiders" who will be more likely to publish it. Thanks! >>
No problem - will do.
Mark.
I'll be glad to contact Craig Hamling ( the EAC webmaster and co-chair of Region 8) re: the best way accomplish this, unless you have an idea on how to do this?? Maybe we just provide a link and and introduction to the thread ??? My computer skills only get me so far...
Hoot