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Question about the 1808 S.277 Large Cent-- is there a 12-1/4 stars variety for this date?

I was taking a look at one of the many upcoming Stack's auctions. For the experts in large cents, is there a 12- 1/4 star variety for this date that is recognized? I believe that the stars were punched in individually so that is probably why there is an extra quarter star (probably a mistake in punching). Would the 12-1/4 star variety be a separate variety or would it be properly classified as a separate die state? Here is the listing:

1808 S.277. Extremely Fine-40.
Here is a lovely example with a hard glossy flan that is far superior to the usual planchet stock of the era. Microscopic granularity can be found under the closest scrutiny but is nearly indistinguishable from the die flow lines found throughout the fields. This example is of the twelve stars variety although this particular coin displays approximately twelve and a quarter stars. The dies were well used by the time this specimen was created as evidenced by the multitude of die clashing, cracking and buckling found especially at the reverse. A wonderfully eye appealing chocolate brown example.


image

image
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)

Comments

  • Know nothing about large cents but am just curious--is there a 13 star variety? If so, are there other diagnostics other than the number of stars? The coin you show just looks like the first star is very weakly struck--or is that what the 12 star variety is, so weakly struck that S1 is not there? I really like the reverse--
    Curmudgeon in waiting!
  • LeianaLeiana Posts: 4,349
    That's a neat looking coin!

    The plate coin in Breen's Encyclopedia of US and Colonial Coins for S-277 actually has a stronger '13th' star (actually Star 1) than this piece, and the reverse break is not as pronounced. The description of the variety ascribes the weakness in the first star to the failure of the reverse die.

    Breen calls it a 12 star, but I think that's misleading beause the die had 13 stars punched into it, but Star 1 just has a poor rate of showing up clearly. There are two thirteen star varieties noted in Breen as well, S-278 and S-279.

    Thanks for sharing!

    -Amanda
    image

    I'm a YN working on a type set!

    My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!

    Proud member of the CUFYNA
  • STONESTONE Posts: 15,275
    Interesting???

    Beats me as far as varieties are concerned.
    It's still quite a nice coin.
  • Amanda--thanks for your informative post--your explanation jibes with my novice guess about the 12 star variety. Bill
    Curmudgeon in waiting!
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For the 1808 S-277 cent, I'm aware of it being available in both 13 and 12 stars, but I hadn't seen the 12-1/4 star variety before, which is what this coin looks like. The Breen-Borckardt Encyclopedia of Large Cents states that the "first star may be visible or invisible in any die state depending on striking quality and wear." The picture in the Encyclopedia shows an appx. 12-1/2 star version.

    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • LeianaLeiana Posts: 4,349
    Rich, would you consider the differing amount of star visible more of a variety or die state? I would say die state myself, but I have only recently begun reading about the various large cent varieties.

    -Amanda
    image

    I'm a YN working on a type set!

    My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!

    Proud member of the CUFYNA
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Amanda, some of the technicians would probably call it a "die stage" rather than a "die state". I think it is similar to the 1855 N-10 large cent that comes with 13 stars, 12 stars, and 11-1/2 stars. The missing star(s) for that one seem to be independent of die state, just as seems to be the case for the 1808 S-277. I have a 12 star 1808 S-277 and think it's a cool variety, but until 10 minutes ago I didn't know it didn't depend on die wear. I'm familiar with the 3 varieties of the 1855 N-10 as I have one of each, very nice display items.

    I think the justification for calling it "die stage" is the off and on nature of the missing star(s), rather than a "die state" which starts out unworn, and wears down to its eventual final (and sometimes terminal) die state.

    How about it, large cent experts, what do you call this, "die stage" or "die state"?

    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • LeianaLeiana Posts: 4,349
    Die stage makes sense. image That's a new term for me. Thanks for explaining!

    So I guess the difference would be in that die states can be timelined while die stages proceed in a variable fashion.

    So the die stages depend on striking pressure/position of the dies and strike/planchet quality moreso than the actual quality of the dies?

    -Amanda
    image

    I'm a YN working on a type set!

    My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!

    Proud member of the CUFYNA
  • I LOVE that shattered die!!!!!!!!image
    This is a very dumb ass thread. - Laura Sperber - Tuesday January 09, 2007 11:16 AM image

    Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
  • BTW--it's this kind of thread that really makes this forum worthwhile.
    Curmudgeon in waiting!
  • Nice thought provoking thread. The S-277 obverse and reverse dies are unique to the variety. The obverse die does have 13 stars punched in . The term 12 star variety is simply a term used to describe the apparent differences in the fully struck examples and the weakly struck examples sans the first star. Breen says that the first star is evident or not as a result of strike quality and not wear. Breen also states that the lowest star may be evident or not in any die state- early middle or late. So if the star is not evident in an earlier die state but in a later this would seem to support his claim of strike quality. Noyes states that the reverse die sinking (in the area of the arc crack) causes the weakness in the stars on the obverse. According to Breen the reverse die sinking begins in state II (early to middle) and the arc cracks starts in state IV or the middle die state and expanding as the die state progresses to the later state. If this is the case then the later the die state and progression of the wear of the die, the less and less you would see the star - in other words you would find early die state examples with perfect reverses or nearly so with the star and later die states with more obvious die sinking and cracks with less or no star showing. Longacre's example is a late die state. It would be interesting to find and early die state example with a perfect reverse or nearly so where the first star is not evident. This would support Breen's statement. If Breen is correct then the star issue is neither a die state or die stage effect. If you take Noyes' statement associating the star quality with the sinking of the die and the progression of the die state, then the star is would be associated with the middle - later die states, still not classified as a die state and not a stage. It would be interestig to hear other opinions on this

    Die state and die stage are sometimes used interchangeably, but actually have two entirely distinct meanings. Alan Herbert described the die state and die stage as : Die State : “the amount of wear, possibly excessive use, and possibly even abrasion from “cleaning”, that a die has endured”; and Die Stage: “the emergence of new “die markers” signs of damage or break up. Most often these are cracks, chips, or larger breaks in the die surface, which translate into raised corresponding marks on coins struck by that die”
  • MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Nice thought provoking thread. The S-277 obverse and reverse dies are unique to the variety. The obverse die does have 13 stars punched in . The term 12 star variety is simply a term used to describe the apparent differences in the fully struck examples and the weakly struck examples sans the first star. Breen says that the first star is evident or not as a result of strike quality and not wear. Breen also states that the lowest star may be evident or not in any die state- early middle or late. So if the star is not evident in an earlier die state but in a later this would seem to support his claim of strike quality. Noyes states that the reverse die sinking (in the area of the arc crack) causes the weakness in the stars on the obverse. According to Breen the reverse die sinking begins in state II (early to middle) and the arc cracks starts in state IV or the middle die state and expanding as the die state progresses to the later state. If this is the case then the later the die state and progression of the wear of the die, the less and less you would see the star - in other words you would find early die state examples with perfect reverses or nearly so with the star and later die states with more obvious die sinking and cracks with less or no star showing. Longacre's example is a late die state. It would be interesting to find and early die state example with a perfect reverse or nearly so where the first star is not evident. This would support Breen's statement. If Breen is correct then the star issue is neither a die state or die stage effect. If you take Noyes' statement associating the star quality with the sinking of the die and the progression of the die state, then the star is would be associated with the middle - later die states, still not classified as a die state and not a stage. It would be interestig to hear other opinions on this >>



    1798 collector beat me to the punch on this one.

    FWIW, I agree with the above assertion, and after reviewing all the examples I could find, I believe that there is some striking variability among these coins (as is quite common on these classic head large cents), the star in general seems to vary along with the die crack and sinking on the reverse. In other words, I agree with Noyes rather than Breen on this one.

    To get back to Longacre's question -- I consider it a die state, and the 11 1/4 star is not a separate variety at all.

    Here's the earliest state I could find:

    imageimage

    It has the strongest first star of ANY of the examples I could find, and it seems as soon as the reverse die break happens, the star gets weaker and weaker -- supporting Noyes' theory on this. However, the first star does vary quite a bit on reverses that seem to have a consistent break, which could be explained by both variability in striking pressure and/or die sinking/buckling (which is tough to judge by photos).

    As an aside, it is worth noting the above coin, even without the die break, already shows weakness on the reverse in this area. Perhaps a misaligned die contributed to this effect!?!?

    Here's a later die state with an interesting 1st star -- I only show this because if you were going to call a coin a "12 1/2" star, this one seems to match the description the best:

    imageimage

    The above coin is the only one I found with this obvious "half star" effect, so please don't get the idea all of them look like this.

    If anybody is interested, here's a link to all the s.277 on Heritage.

    Have fun...Mike
    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
  • Excellent explanation, 1798.

    "The Breen-Borckardt Encyclopedia of Large Cents states that the 'first star may be visible or invisible in any die state depending on striking quality and wear.'"

    I believe that this die had a weakly punched star 1, or a weak star 1 based on an uneven initial lapping of the die. The latter makes better sense in light of 1798centcollector's great summary. This cent, like many or perhaps the majority of early classic head cents, were struck slightly off-center. Off-center strikes of the S-277 variety show different parts of star 1. Here's mine:

    image

    Note that my coin is the same late die state, but nearly the entire opposite side of the star shows on my example, versus the example that Longacre first posted. This is due to the relative position of the die to the planchet, with the strike of my coin being more to the northeast. Thus, I consider this variety one where star 1 was heavily lapped early in the coin making process, perhaps before the first coin was struck from the die pair. Off-center strikes therefore led to various parts of the star showing, sometime complete. The upset rim of the coin undoubtedly had an effect on the ultimate outcome, as did striking pressure, variations in planchet thickness, and the lack of a close collar.

    One of my favorite coins, BTW.

    Hoot
    From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines. - Whitman
  • As for die state vs. die stage, I believe that they convey the same basic premise that dies changed in their surface characteristics and therefore what they imparted on a coin as they wore, but "state" implies a deterministic view of the process that places the resulting coins in discrete bins, whereas "stage" implies a continuum. It is easy to realize that the continuum is what exists in reality, albeit there may be examples where sudden cracks or breaks show up as transitional states or markers. Still, "state" is a convenience and, to me, simply speaks of the condition of the die at the time of striking, which imparted certain landmark characteristics.

    Hoot
    From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines. - Whitman
  • Hoot. I think your explanation makes perfect sense or so as I intrepret it. I'd given some thought to the possibility of lapped obverse dies also and the positioning of the die during the strike, along with the effect on the impression presented by upset rim . All of the examples pictured here, yours Mike's, and Longacres, exhibit the apparent weakness in the lower stars when the strike is offcenter and differ according to the position of the die to the planchet as you noted. Interestingly I just noticed that Noyes illustrates ( Noyes photo 21749) the variety in his book with a late die state example that is very similiar to Longacre's example, but struck more on center than any illustrated here so far, or in either reference. Stars 1 and 2 are very well defined along with the bottoms of the numerials in the date. Off hand this would then seem to contradict the assertion that the weakness is related to the die sinking and advancing die state.

    Mike's first photo from Heritage appears to these tired eyes to be an earlier die state , struck somewhat offcenter and with weaker stars 1 and 2 than Noyes' later die state - but more well defined stars 1 and 2 than Longacres image of the late die state which is similiar to the Noyes example.

  • MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭
    image
    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.


  • << <i>I just noticed that Noyes illustrates ( Noyes photo 21749) the variety in his book with a late die state example that is very similiar to Longacre's example, but struck more on center than any illustrated here so far, or in either reference. Stars 1 and 2 are very well defined along with the bottoms of the numerials in the date. Off hand this would then seem to contradict the assertion that the weakness is related to the die sinking and advancing die state. >>



    Exactly!

    I think that Mike's examples illustrate both an early and late die state, and a fairly well-centered and fairly off-centered strike. The off-centered strike is LDS, but it's pretty far southwest. I believe that the combination of factors - a worn die, an off-center strike, the postiion of the upset portion of the rim, and small variations in planchet thickness may have contributed to the extraordinary variations in this variety. It would be tough to draw firm conclusions without a fair number of examples, but from the limited number I've seen, I'm not convinced that the "disappearing star" (#1) is simple die wear, rather I like the idea that lapping may have followed a clash that may have even broken the reverse die in the first place. It would be interesting to know if this variety has a few examples in early or intermediate die states that have clashes in the area of star 1 and the northwest reverse.

    Here's the reverse of mine, where the northwest of the reverse is strongly sunken:

    image

    Hoot
    From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines. - Whitman
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    Wow! I will need to print this thread and read it more slowly. Outstanding responses!
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • Apparently this variety was a victim of mucho clashing. Breen notes that in state II and III (early - middle) obverse clash marks are evident from the leaves before the face. I don't have good photo of an example where these marks are exactly positioned that I can make out clearly, but certainly could provide a reason for the obverse die lapping. Breen also notes that in state II clashing from the truncation appears under TES in STATES, which is in the area of the the reverse arc die crack. Possibly the clashing in this area might contribute to the appearance of the arc die crack

    Mike's early die state example above does not yet exhibit (from what I can tell) the arc crack, but does exhibit the initial die sinking (bulge) as Breen describes appearing in State II. Could an explanation for the later appearance of the reverse arc crack be due to the weak reverese die in this area exhibiting the sinking and later resulting in the arc crack around this area as the reverse die weakens??

    The evidence does suggest that die lapping along with the degree of strike centeredness may be determiner of the quality of the stars in the lower left obverse. The condition of the reverse die opposite this obverse area of weakness could not have helped this situation either.
  • Nice thread, Longacre image
  • AuldFartteAuldFartte Posts: 4,597 ✭✭✭✭
    This is a fascinating thread, especially for a copper weenie like myself image

    I have always heard of this referred to as a die state, and I think that's what Noyes was saying. I tend to agree with him over Breen on several issues concerning early copper, this being among the most notable. I'd love to find one of these in "terminal state" like the one shown in Longacre's first post. That coin itself is a terrific example image
    image

    My OmniCoin Collection
    My BankNoteBank Collection
    Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
  • HootHoot Posts: 867
    1798CentCollector - Excellent and clear thoughts on the matter! Perhaps the die suffered uneven annealing and subsequent hardening. That would leave the area that's weaker to bulge and vulnerable to cracking due to a clash (wouldn't have been the first time!). The first clash may not even noticealby crack the die but just leave it weakened for a crack to develop. The clash marks would naturally be lapped, thus leaving the area in front of and below Liberty's chin with much thinner devices, particularly star#1 if the lapping were "enthusiastic." Following these events, the die would be quite susceptible to cracking and sinking, promoting an even weaker obverse strike in the area of star #1. Off-center strikes would then produce all forms and variations of the appearance of star #1, as seen in the few examples above.

    Seems like a plausible explanation! Thanks for your's and mike's drilling into this and Longacre's post! I also like Amanda's and RichieURich's discussions on die state vs. stage. All worthwhile musings.

    Hoot
    From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines. - Whitman
  • LeianaLeiana Posts: 4,349
    I haven't learned so much from a thread in a long while! image Refreshing, really. image Thanks, guys! image

    Anyone care to take a wild guess at the Classic Head Large cent I will now be looking for for my type collection? image

    -Amanda
    image

    I'm a YN working on a type set!

    My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!

    Proud member of the CUFYNA
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    I read through the responses again. Great thread.

    Given the large area of buckling/cracking on the reverse, why is it that only Stars 1 and sometimes Star 2 are affected? It would seem that Stars 3 and 4 would also be affected as well. Or it that further evidence of what Hoot and 1798 are discussing related to centeredness and strike pressure being the true cause of this missing 13th star?

    I wonder if someone should submit this thread to EAC's Region 8 Newsletter. It would be interesting to get another audience's viewpoint on this issue.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • HootHoot Posts: 867


    << <i>Given the large area of buckling/cracking on the reverse, why is it that only Stars 1 and sometimes Star 2 are affected? >>



    I think that rotation of the dies relative to one another may account for only stars 1 and 2 being affected. Also, however, the date tends to smear into the edge of the coin - just take a look at my example. The off-center strikes just exaggerate the effects.

    This would be a good thread to refer to Reigon 8.

    Hoot
    From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines. - Whitman
  • Hoot makes a good point in response to Longacre's question. Really a good thread for discussion and exchange of ideas - and as Hoot notes some views on die stage vs. die state. I'd agree a good topic to share with Region 8 and the "old" master Denis Loring - whom I know appreciates the Classic Heads.

    Amanda send us a picture when you locate and purchase that special S-277.




  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    Hoot/1798--

    Can one of you submit the thread to Region 8? I am not sure how to do it (other than maybe providing a link), and you might know the "insiders" who will be more likely to publish it. Thanks!
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • HootHoot Posts: 867


    << <i>Hoot/1798--

    Can one of you submit the thread to Region 8? I am not sure how to do it (other than maybe providing a link), and you might know the "insiders" who will be more likely to publish it. Thanks! >>



    No problem - will do.

    Mark.
    From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines. - Whitman
  • Hoot,

    I'll be glad to contact Craig Hamling ( the EAC webmaster and co-chair of Region 8) re: the best way accomplish this, unless you have an idea on how to do this?? Maybe we just provide a link and and introduction to the thread ??? My computer skills only get me so far...
  • Hoot you volunteered first!!! Keep us posted
  • HootHoot Posts: 867
    Done!

    Hoot
    From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines. - Whitman

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