NGC being sued over "first strike" designation
Michigan
Posts: 4,942 ✭
Coin World in their Nov. 27 edition is reporting that a Florida man is suing NGC in a class action lawsuit over the "first strike" designation
saying it violates Florida deceptive and unfair trade practices act.
saying it violates Florida deceptive and unfair trade practices act.
0
Comments
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>Coin World in their Nov. 27 edition is reporting that a Florida man is suing NGC in a class action lawsuit over the "first strike" designation
saying it violates Florida deceptive and unfair trade practices act. >>
Since TPG First Strikes are guaranteed to not be first strikes in the numismatic sense, the guy does have a point.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>I'm not familiar with the Florida law... does he have a legitamite case here or would most judges find it laughable?
-Amanda >>
I'm no lawyer but I believe he has a case. The only problem is that the actual damages are minimal. The only way it could hurt NGC is if the judge were to determine that punitive damages can be awarded and I doubt that will happen.
<< <i>Not having read the article, I can think of one Florida man in particular that might be inclined to pull that crap. >>
First Strike is pretty misleading, to the point that the US Mint has had to write a response debunking it. The Freedom Tower Dollar guys got sued and stopped their misleading marketing practices, I'm not sure that First Strike is much different.
My real thoughts are what a waste of time. If you don't like it don't buy it!
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
All that money for a little tag which isn't accurate anyways! (I can't figure it out...)
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>Those people need to be protected, so they don't spent their money without getting approval first from a judge or government agency. In matter of fact we should all be protected!
My real thoughts are what a waste of time. If you don't like it don't buy it! >>
While I think people should be able to educate and protect themselves, I don't think corporations should be able to market bold faced lies which is unfortunately what First Strike is.
<< <i>Coin World in their Nov. 27 edition is reporting that a Florida man is suing NGC in a class action lawsuit over the "first strike" designation
saying it violates Florida deceptive and unfair trade practices act. >>
What do you call a 1000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean..................
I dunno, what cha call it
<< <i><<What do you call a 1000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean>>
I dunno, what cha call it >>
A good start.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Gotta start somewhere
<< <i>
<< <i><<What do you call a 1000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean>>
I dunno, what cha call it >>
A good start.
Yeah, but the sharks won't eat them because of professional courtesy.
U.S. Type Set
<< <i>Not having read the article, I can think of one Florida man in particular that might be inclined to pull that crap. >>
Hmmm. Wonder who that might be.
Ray
<< <i>It'll likely be a tough case against NGC because it clearly and continuously published the meaning of "First Strike" as it uses the designation. Not everybody has that defense. >>
The law typically uses a "reasonable person" scenario. What will a reasonable person think "First Strike" means. As for continual publishing, I think to make the misunderstanding go away they'll need to print what it is on the insert, kind of like how cigarette packs have disclaimers.
Think about it this way. What if a company made canisters with helium but marketed it with a trademarked Oxygen name and put disclaimers on a website. Now someone goes to climb Everest and sees a canister that says Oxgyen. He takes it and then dies. Does the company get off because they had a disclaimer on their website explaining Oxygen doesn't mean oxygen? Obviously no one falling for First Strike is dying but you get the idea.
In fact coin 1,999,999 is one of the first 1,999,999 minted, so what't the big deal.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>If 2,000,000 coins are minted and 200,000 are designated first strikes the 200,000th coin is still one of the first 200,000 minted.
In fact coin 1,999,999 is one of the first 1,999,999 minted, so what't the big deal. >>
Who's to say that the 200,000 designated as first strikes were the first 200,000 to be struck out of the 2,000,000 total?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Will they call anyone here as an expert? >>
Would serving as an expert conflict with your posting responsibilities here?
40 free gradings and he has to STFU.
Camelot
<< <i>Imho, NGC clearly explains the designation. Maybe the person suing should take a look at the retail marketer's representations. >>
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don't think you can take a common phrase, change the definition, place the definition on an obscure webpage somewhere and expect a reasonable person to find it. In case law, I think it's even been proven that people don't read click through agreements for installing software and putting the text right there in front of them doesn't mean anything. If presenting someone with an agreement that they click on won't protect you, I don't see how putting text on a webpage that's not even referenced on the slab will. I don't think it's clear at all. IMO, it would be clearer if their definition was printed on the back of the insert.
<< <i>Just about a month ago I called the Mint and asked if there was any correlation between the order in which orders are received and shipped and the order in which the coins were struck, and I was told there was none. >>
There's obviously a complicated relationship simply because coins always "bunch up" when
they leave the mint. The better answer would have been that they do not know what the
relationship is.
Certainly trying to find the best coins by finding the first shipped is a waste of time and effort.
With many circulation issues they are made in such large quantities that even looking at first
production will probably be a waste.
<< <i>I haven't received a CW in two weeks.
Consuela change the mailing address when she left?
Kill all the lawyers-Shakespeare
Except Mine.-Anonymous
As for whether he has a case or not, he probably does under FDUPTA or Florida unfair and deceptive trade practice. Unlike common law fraud which generally requires that you must reasonably rely on the representation, (ie. It was not reasonable for me to rely on First Strike really meaning these were first coins minted.) It focuses more on the acts of the person or entity involved in trade or commerce and whether or not the act that is taken is "objectively" deceptive. In any case, the first real test will be to see if they get class certification. If they do, it will be a lot harder for NGC to defend. In front of a jury the idea of, "thousands of people can't be wrong" works against a company. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
501.204 Unlawful acts and practices.--
(1) Unfair methods of competition, unconscionable acts or practices, and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in the conduct of any trade or commerce are hereby declared unlawful.
(2) It is the intent of the Legislature that, in construing subsection (1), due consideration and great weight shall be given to the interpretations of the Federal Trade Commission and the federal courts relating to s. 5(a)(1) of the Federal Trade Commission Act, 15 U.S.C. s. 45(a)(1) as of July 1, 2006.
501.203
***
6) "Interested party or person" means any person affected by a violation of this part or any person affected by an order of the enforcing authority.
(7) "Consumer" means an individual; child, by and through its parent or legal guardian; business; firm; association; joint venture; partnership; estate; trust; business trust; syndicate; fiduciary; corporation; any commercial entity, however denominated; or any other group or combination.
(8) "Trade or commerce" means the advertising, soliciting, providing, offering, or distributing, whether by sale, rental, or otherwise, of any good or service, or any property, whether tangible or intangible, or any other article, commodity, or thing of value, wherever situated. "Trade or commerce" shall include the conduct of any trade or commerce, however denominated, including any nonprofit or not-for-profit person or activity.
(9) "Thing of value" may include, without limitation, any moneys, donation, membership, credential, certificate, prize, award, benefit, license, interest, professional opportunity, or chance of winning.
Proud Participant in Operation "Stone Holey" August 7, 2008
<< <i>
It's not "First Minted", it is "First STRUCK", and, as far as I know, first struck has always meant first struck from a fresh set of dies, which I believe, are not released into the general population (at least not the first struck from the first set of dies).
>>
I don't believe the mint has ever provided such coins to order. The closest they come
is in the mint and proof set coins where each die makes few strikes.
<< <i>1) Any rules promulgated pursuant to the FTC act or FDUTPA;
2) The standards of unfairness or deception set forth and interpreted by the FTC or the federal courts; or
3) Any law, statute, rule, regulation, or ordinance which proscribes unfair methods of competition, or unfair, deceptive, or unconscionable acts or practices. >>
It also mentions this:
<< <i>Failing to generate critical price or performance data, leaving the buyer with insufficient information to make informed comparisons; >>
That could be tricky...
Here is an
article about the law... it's long, hard to read and has about 66 footnotes, but it makes sense.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>
<< <i>Not having read the article, I can think of one Florida man in particular that might be inclined to pull that crap. >>
Hmmm. Wonder who that might be.
Ray >>
Did this individual name another TPG and a bunch of forum and RCC folks in his suit too?
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Likely conclusion (rather quickly): Settlement with payment to the lawyers and named plaintiffs, cessation of FS designation by all TPGs. The alternative battle and possible disrepute to the whole TPG industry just isn’t worth the risk. Business decision, pure and simple…pay the money (not that much) and quit being free and loose with grading terms.
Florida Bill
Play those in court and it becomes quite evident how misleading/deceptive what you reasonably think you get for a First strike label can be.
NGC will settle out of court.
Box of 20