<< <i>NGC may have a defense in that their labels are plurual -- FIRST STRIKES. This clearly indicates a deviation from the traditional definition and since they have always had their definition posted, consumers don't have much of an excuse for falling for the marketing ploy. >>
I don't think making it plural gets them out of the woods because multiple die sets are often used through the course of a minting. It would be easy to assume strikes plural means the first of every die set. Also their definition isn't the easiest to find. There's no mention of a definition or where to find one on their slab at all.
But you are assuming that people understand things and that is a bad assumption to make.....
You can't assume that collectors understand anything, in my opinion First Strike is a misleading term, first strike means first coins off of the die in my opinion and probably a majority of collectors.....
This is an assumption on my part, but a reasonable one and one with roots in collecting tradition I believe..... >>
It's not my style to call anyone out, and I don't mean this personally, but I have to call out that attitude. Everybody understands something, some better than others. If you're laying out cash you have an obligation of due dilegence.......you better know what the smell your doing! If you don't know the difference between a DMPL and a pimple, it's your own dam fault! I don't need or want the government or courtsystem trying to protect me, because in the end, THEY CAN'T. That's my job!
Time for another glass of wine (for me. Whine for you). Okay, that was a bit personal. So sue me!
___________________
I can quit collecting anytime I want to.....I just don't want to!
But you are assuming that people understand things and that is a bad assumption to make.....
You can't assume that collectors understand anything, in my opinion First Strike is a misleading term, first strike means first coins off of the die in my opinion and probably a majority of collectors.....
This is an assumption on my part, but a reasonable one and one with roots in collecting tradition I believe..... >>
It's not my style to call anyone out, and I don't mean this personally, but I have to call out that attitude. Everybody understands something, some better than others. If you're laying out cash you have an obligation of due dilegence.......you better know what the smell your doing! If you don't know the difference between a DMPL and a pimple, it's your own dam fault! I don't need or want the government or courtsystem trying to protect me, because in the end, THEY CAN'T. That's my job!
Time for another glass of wine (for me. Whine for you). Okay, that was a bit personal. So sue me! >>
But what if you (just for the sake of this argument--it could be anyone) had an older relative---maybe a grandparent, who knew squat about our hobby, but knew that little Oakie Jr.(again--just for example) loved his coins---and went out to get the best one they could find at the nice corner coin store....say they spent more than they should have cause they really wanted to get you THE BEST they could afford for say---a birthday present---and came home with a First Strike coin .....
If you're laying out cash you have an obligation of due dilegence.......you better know what the smell your doing! If you don't know the difference between a DMPL and a pimple, it's your own dam fault!
But wasn't this the reason why the TGS were created.........to bridge that gap between the most knowledgeable and the truely ignorant?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
You are 100% correct that you should be 100% responsible for your actions and what you collect, but we are in the courts now and responsibility and logic are tossed out the windows.....
4 million for spilling coffee and yourself comes to mind.....
I would say and be confortable saying it that most of us on this board are in the higher knowledge bracket of collectors.....
My feeling is that for the good of the collecting community we need to get rid of First Strike coins.....
Collection under construction: VG Barber Quarters & Halves
<< <i>If you're laying out cash you have an obligation of due dilegence.......you better know what the smell your doing! If you don't know the difference between a DMPL and a pimple, it's your own dam fault!
But wasn't this the reason why the TGS were created.........to bridge that gap between the most knowledgeable and the truely ignorant?
Leo >>
I would not say the truely ignorant are the reason why grading services came about and it is not the reason why they have thrived over the years.....
The only way I purchase classic (pre 33) US gold coins is slabbed, not because I can't grade the coins, but because that is the intelligent way in my opinion..... If you are going to spent 100's of dollars on coins why take unnecessary risk.....
The slabbing of bullion coins and the MS-PR-69/70 game is also a waste of time in my mind.....
Collection under construction: VG Barber Quarters & Halves
But what if you (just for the sake of this argument--it could be anyone) had an older relative---maybe a grandparent, who knew squat about our hobby, but knew that little Oakie Jr.(again--just for example) loved his coins---and went out to get the best one they could find at the nice corner coin store....say they spent more than they should have cause they really wanted to get you THE BEST they could afford for say---a birthday present---and came home with a First Strike coin ..... >>
Fair scenario. If little oakie jr had $500 CASH laying around and wanted to buy me something nice, I'd say God bless his little beanie head. Of course I'd have a different answer depending........ Does Jr. have a $1,000/week allowance and this purchase is a very minor cash outlay OR Did junior work hard delivering newspapers, wash the neighbor's filthy dog, etc, etc, etc..... To cut to the chase, I'm a little pissed in the latter scene. BUT whatever actions I choose to take will include a conversation about personal responsiblity. Trust me, I've had the conversations about, "You have to lock up your bike, if you don't want someone to steal it" and "I think your new friend is the one that stole my coins" and ............. others with the 13 year old. I've also told my wonderful mother-in-law to not buy me coins because collecting is a very personal pursuit. Sorry, I have no sympathy. My 1st coin purchase (as an adult) was for a $1,000+ of morgans from the BST back in 2001. I got PVC, over graded crap. It was a great lesson and I'm a 3 worlds smarter for the mistake.
___________________
I can quit collecting anytime I want to.....I just don't want to!
<< <i> My feeling is that for the good of the collecting community we need to get rid of First Strike coins..... >>
I can agree with that 110% and if that is the purpose of the lawsuit I can back it. If the lawsuit is about compensating the plantiff for poor decisions, I have a difficult time with it.
Obviously I'm not a frequent poster, but I appreciate the opinons of everyone here and enjoyed the exchange.
___________________
I can quit collecting anytime I want to.....I just don't want to!
When I view a coin in a TPG holder I should expect it to accurately give me truthful and expert information about that coin. The addition of the wording FIRST STRIKE (for marketing purposes only) really goes against the original idea for slabbing coins.
Advanced collector of BREWERIANA. Early beer advertising (beer cans, tap knobs, foam scrapers, trays, tin signs, lithos, paper, etc)....My first love...U.S. COINS!
So is the mints position that they take the orders, then send them out in a random fashion, despite having stock and availability to fill all the other orders, and instead tell their customers their orders are on backorder...sounds about right. In fact for the ASE's the people that ordered last, already have all their sets delivered, with the ASE's which were struck yesterday.
I have no idea why this even much of a debate. When you change a widely used and understood definition of something and it involves taking the money of consumers, things like this are predictable.
24HourForums.com - load images, create albums, place ads, talk coins, enjoy the community.
<< <i>I have no idea why this even much of a debate. When you change a widely used and understood definition of something and it involves taking the money of consumers, things like this are predictable. >>
There is so much debate because corporations are continuing to use their modified definitions. Corporations and speculators may prefer First Strike because it brings in more revenue. Collectors would prefer accurate, authentic information on the slabs which means no First Strike and less revenues for the TPGs. The groups have different goals. Many companies actually prefer to make more money, even if if pushes ethical boundaries and upsets some of their customers.
<< <i>There is so much debate because corporations are continuing to use their modified definitions. Corporations and speculators may prefer First Strike because it brings in more revenue. Collectors would prefer accurate, authentic information on the slabs which means no First Strike and less revnues for the TPGs. The groups have different goals. Many companies actually prefer to make more money, even if there is some controversy >>
Heh, let me rephrase then, because I agree with you. I can't believe there isn't more agreement about this. I can't help but think that those who defend the slabbers on this either have a vested interest or are in denial. When I first learned about what was being sold as First Strike coins I was amazed that it was done. First Strike coins can be, apparently, months and months and months worth of minted coins with absolutely zero respect for the established term "First Strike." I can't believe people don't even agree on the notion that a different term should have been used at least! It toally made me move the slabbers down a notch.
24HourForums.com - load images, create albums, place ads, talk coins, enjoy the community.
<< <i>I can't help but think that those who defend the slabbers on this [...] have a vested interest [...] It toally made me move the slabbers down a notch. >>
This has been mentioned many times. Whatever you say about it from an ethics perspective, it is an effective way to make some extra money for both TPGs and speculators. Money and ethics are often hard to reconcile.
"This has been mentioned many times. Whatever you say about it from an ethics perspective, it is an effective way to make some extra money for both TPGs and speculators. Money and ethics are often hard to reconcile."
It's not hard for me in this case at all. The fact that such a tactic was used to try and raise revenue is the issue. Actually, whether or not changing a well-established definition for marketing at all is the real issue.
24HourForums.com - load images, create albums, place ads, talk coins, enjoy the community.
Ah, an intelligent response, be it an uninformed one. Let's see, the famous coffee case. They sell coffee out a window, having been warned for years that at 4 thousand degrees, its not safe for consumption. They argue 1) we didn't expect people to drink it in their cars, and 2) despite the multitude of prior incidents and warnings, our Testing shows we sell more, when its superheated. Now this superheated coffee spills on your crotch (presumably accidental), and you are all burned up in this delicate region and after multiple surgerys, you sue for damages. Everyone knows about 4 million, which oh, by the way was reduced to 300 g's years later. 100% responsibility for ones actions? I'd gladly pay 4 million not to have a burned up crotch.
Just heard on radio, here in Indiana Starbucks has just been sued for a coffee spill burn. Woman bought the coffe at the drive through and then spilled it on her daughter, burning her leg. So she has sued Starbucks.
This may be old news, but I found this definition under lingo on this web site (I guess the meaning of the term "First Strike" has officially been changed).
First Strike (TM) Beginning in 2004, PCGS began designating coins delivered by the U.S. Mint in the 30 day period following the initial sales date of a new product as "First Strike". For instance, new American Silver Eagles typically go on sale each January 1st, thus any coins delivered between January 1 and January 31 qualify for the First Strike (TM) designation.
Advanced collector of BREWERIANA. Early beer advertising (beer cans, tap knobs, foam scrapers, trays, tin signs, lithos, paper, etc)....My first love...U.S. COINS!
<< <i>Just heard on radio, here in Indiana Starbucks has just been sued for a coffee spill burn. Woman bought the coffe at the drive through and then spilled it on her daughter, burning her leg. So she has sued Starbucks. >>
If I buy something such as coffee that I know is hot. I pay for it and take posession of it. How is it the fault of the seller if I spill it and burn myself or someone with it?
Advanced collector of BREWERIANA. Early beer advertising (beer cans, tap knobs, foam scrapers, trays, tin signs, lithos, paper, etc)....My first love...U.S. COINS!
<< <i>This may be old news, but I found this definition under lingo on this web site (I guess the meaning of the term "First Strike" has officially been changed).
First Strike (TM) Beginning in 2004, PCGS began designating coins delivered by the U.S. Mint in the 30 day period following the initial sales date of a new product as "First Strike". For instance, new American Silver Eagles typically go on sale each January 1st, thus any coins delivered between January 1 and January 31 qualify for the First Strike (TM) designation. >>
And this is what that same lingo section said for at least the previous 5 years up to as recently as late spring of this year:
first strike A coin struck early in the life of a die. First strikes sometimes are characterized by striated or mirror-like fields if the die was polished. Almost always fully or well struck, with crisp detail.
Here is a first strike article from their article archives. Note the article date is 2004. That would be within the window of the sale of First Strike™ Slabs. Now that I have brought this article to their attention I wonder how long before it mysteriously disappears.
<< <i>Interesting post from another forum: link >>
That's great. In their own words in a legal petition.... >>
Nothing like being your own worst enemy. Although they could argue they were talking about "First Strike" and not "First Strikes" that is on their current slabs??
<< <i>Interesting post from another forum: link >>
That's great. In their own words in a legal petition.... >>
Nothing like being your own worst enemy. Although they could argue they were talking about "First Strike" and not "First Strikes" that is on their current slabs?? >>
I already mentioned this but "First Strikes" plural could be taken to mean a set of coins containing the First Strike singular of each die set in a minting. That's how I would read it. If a proof die makes ~5000 coins and you have a final mintage of 100K there would be 20 First Strikes for that series. Of course, these are tested and discarded by the US Mint so if you got one somehow, it wouldn't be through US Mint order fulfillment.
Plural usually means more of the singular, not something completely different than the singular
<< <i>Just heard on radio, here in Indiana Starbucks has just been sued for a coffee spill burn. Woman bought the coffe at the drive through and then spilled it on her daughter, burning her leg. So she has sued Starbucks. >>
If I buy something such as coffee that I know is hot. I pay for it and take posession of it. How is it the fault of the seller if I spill it and burn myself or someone with it? >>
The issue isn't that they caused you to spill it. The issue is whether or not you assumed the risk of being burned by hot coffee, versus superheated coffee. The risk for spills is accepted by everyone. People spill stuff all the time. Here's the deal. The litigation has shown that some companies and I don't know about Starbucks, despite warnings, super heat their product because their studies and internal documents show that although 112 degrees is the safe limit for drinking coffee, that by making it 180 degrees, their sales increase 50%. This is big business. If sold at a safe level, they lose money, but a spill would be just a spill instead of a life altering disaster for somebodys kid. Don't quote me on the above numbers but from what I remember some companies really superheat the stuff, it wasn't a matter of a couple degrees.
Comments
A boy named SUE
<< <i>NGC may have a defense in that their labels are plurual -- FIRST STRIKES. This clearly indicates a deviation from the traditional definition and since they have always had their definition posted, consumers don't have much of an excuse for falling for the marketing ploy. >>
I don't think making it plural gets them out of the woods because multiple die sets are often used through the course of a minting. It would be easy to assume strikes plural means the first of every die set. Also their definition isn't the easiest to find. There's no mention of a definition or where to find one on their slab at all.
<< <i>
But you are assuming that people understand things and that is a bad assumption to make.....
You can't assume that collectors understand anything, in my opinion First Strike is a misleading term, first strike means first coins off of the die in my opinion and probably a majority of collectors.....
This is an assumption on my part, but a reasonable one and one with roots in collecting tradition I believe..... >>
It's not my style to call anyone out, and I don't mean this personally, but I have to call out that attitude. Everybody understands something, some better than others. If you're laying out cash you have an obligation of due dilegence.......you better know what the smell your doing! If you don't know the difference between a DMPL and a pimple, it's your own dam fault! I don't need or want the government or courtsystem trying to protect me, because in the end, THEY CAN'T. That's my job!
Time for another glass of wine (for me. Whine for you). Okay, that was a bit personal. So sue me!
I can quit collecting anytime I want to.....I just don't want to!
<< <i>
<< <i>
But you are assuming that people understand things and that is a bad assumption to make.....
You can't assume that collectors understand anything, in my opinion First Strike is a misleading term, first strike means first coins off of the die in my opinion and probably a majority of collectors.....
This is an assumption on my part, but a reasonable one and one with roots in collecting tradition I believe..... >>
It's not my style to call anyone out, and I don't mean this personally, but I have to call out that attitude. Everybody understands something, some better than others. If you're laying out cash you have an obligation of due dilegence.......you better know what the smell your doing! If you don't know the difference between a DMPL and a pimple, it's your own dam fault! I don't need or want the government or courtsystem trying to protect me, because in the end, THEY CAN'T. That's my job!
Time for another glass of wine (for me. Whine for you). Okay, that was a bit personal. So sue me! >>
But what if you (just for the sake of this argument--it could be anyone) had an older relative---maybe a grandparent, who knew squat about our hobby, but knew that little Oakie Jr.(again--just for example) loved his coins---and went out to get the best one they could find at the nice corner coin store....say they spent more than they should have cause they really wanted to get you THE BEST they could afford for say---a birthday present---and came home with a First Strike coin .....
But wasn't this the reason why the TGS were created.........to bridge that gap between the most knowledgeable and the truely ignorant?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
You are 100% correct that you should be 100% responsible for your actions and what you collect, but we are in the courts now and responsibility and logic are tossed out the windows.....
4 million for spilling coffee and yourself comes to mind.....
I would say and be confortable saying it that most of us on this board are in the higher knowledge bracket of collectors.....
My feeling is that for the good of the collecting community we need to get rid of First Strike coins.....
<< <i>If you're laying out cash you have an obligation of due dilegence.......you better know what the smell your doing! If you don't know the difference between a DMPL and a pimple, it's your own dam fault!
But wasn't this the reason why the TGS were created.........to bridge that gap between the most knowledgeable and the truely ignorant?
Leo >>
I would not say the truely ignorant are the reason why grading services came about and it is not the reason why they have thrived over the years.....
The only way I purchase classic (pre 33) US gold coins is slabbed, not because I can't grade the coins, but because that is the intelligent way in my opinion..... If you are going to spent 100's of dollars on coins why take unnecessary risk.....
The slabbing of bullion coins and the MS-PR-69/70 game is also a waste of time in my mind.....
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
>>
But what if you (just for the sake of this argument--it could be anyone) had an older relative---maybe a grandparent, who knew squat about our hobby, but knew that little Oakie Jr.(again--just for example) loved his coins---and went out to get the best one they could find at the nice corner coin store....say they spent more than they should have cause they really wanted to get you THE BEST they could afford for say---a birthday present---and came home with a First Strike coin ..... >>
Fair scenario. If little oakie jr had $500 CASH laying around and wanted to buy me something nice, I'd say God bless his little beanie head. Of course I'd have a different answer depending........ Does Jr. have a $1,000/week allowance and this purchase is a very minor cash outlay OR Did junior work hard delivering newspapers, wash the neighbor's filthy dog, etc, etc, etc..... To cut to the chase, I'm a little pissed in the latter scene. BUT whatever actions I choose to take will include a conversation about personal responsiblity. Trust me, I've had the conversations about, "You have to lock up your bike, if you don't want someone to steal it" and "I think your new friend is the one that stole my coins" and ............. others with the 13 year old. I've also told my wonderful mother-in-law to not buy me coins because collecting is a very personal pursuit. Sorry, I have no sympathy. My 1st coin purchase (as an adult) was for a $1,000+ of morgans from the BST back in 2001. I got PVC, over graded crap. It was a great lesson and I'm a 3 worlds smarter for the mistake.
I can quit collecting anytime I want to.....I just don't want to!
<< <i>
My feeling is that for the good of the collecting community we need to get rid of First Strike coins..... >>
I can agree with that 110% and if that is the purpose of the lawsuit I can back it. If the lawsuit is about compensating the plantiff for poor decisions, I have a difficult time with it.
Obviously I'm not a frequent poster, but I appreciate the opinons of everyone here and enjoyed the exchange.
I can quit collecting anytime I want to.....I just don't want to!
<< <i>I have no idea why this even much of a debate. When you change a widely used and understood definition of something and it involves taking the money of consumers, things like this are predictable. >>
There is so much debate because corporations are continuing to use their modified definitions. Corporations and speculators may prefer First Strike because it brings in more revenue. Collectors would prefer accurate, authentic information on the slabs which means no First Strike and less revenues for the TPGs. The groups have different goals. Many companies actually prefer to make more money, even if if pushes ethical boundaries and upsets some of their customers.
<< <i>There is so much debate because corporations are continuing to use their modified definitions. Corporations and speculators may prefer First Strike because it brings in more revenue. Collectors would prefer accurate, authentic information on the slabs which means no First Strike and less revnues for the TPGs. The groups have different goals. Many companies actually prefer to make more money, even if there is some controversy >>
Heh, let me rephrase then, because I agree with you. I can't believe there isn't more agreement about this. I can't help but think that those who defend the slabbers on this either have a vested interest or are in denial. When I first learned about what was being sold as First Strike coins I was amazed that it was done. First Strike coins can be, apparently, months and months and months worth of minted coins with absolutely zero respect for the established term "First Strike." I can't believe people don't even agree on the notion that a different term should have been used at least! It toally made me move the slabbers down a notch.
<< <i>I can't help but think that those who defend the slabbers on this [...] have a vested interest [...] It toally made me move the slabbers down a notch. >>
This has been mentioned many times. Whatever you say about it from an ethics perspective, it is an effective way to make some extra money for both TPGs and speculators. Money and ethics are often hard to reconcile.
It's not hard for me in this case at all. The fact that such a tactic was used to try and raise revenue is the issue. Actually, whether or not changing a well-established definition for marketing at all is the real issue.
That statement is true ONLY for the unethical. Cheers, RickO
First Strike (TM)
Beginning in 2004, PCGS began designating coins delivered by the U.S. Mint in the 30 day period following the initial sales date of a new product as "First Strike". For instance, new American Silver Eagles typically go on sale each January 1st, thus any coins delivered between January 1 and January 31 qualify for the First Strike (TM) designation.
<< <i>Just heard on radio, here in Indiana Starbucks has just been sued for a coffee spill burn. Woman bought the coffe at the drive through and then spilled it on her daughter, burning her leg. So she has sued Starbucks. >>
If I buy something such as coffee that I know is hot. I pay for it and take posession of it. How is it the fault of the seller if I spill it and burn myself or someone with it?
<< <i>This may be old news, but I found this definition under lingo on this web site (I guess the meaning of the term "First Strike" has officially been changed).
First Strike (TM)
Beginning in 2004, PCGS began designating coins delivered by the U.S. Mint in the 30 day period following the initial sales date of a new product as "First Strike". For instance, new American Silver Eagles typically go on sale each January 1st, thus any coins delivered between January 1 and January 31 qualify for the First Strike (TM) designation. >>
And this is what that same lingo section said for at least the previous 5 years up to as recently as late spring of this year:
first strike
A coin struck early in the life of a die. First strikes sometimes are characterized by striated or mirror-like fields if the die was polished. Almost always fully or well struck, with crisp detail.
Here is a first strike article from their article archives. Note the article date is 2004. That would be within the window of the sale of First Strike™ Slabs. Now that I have brought this article to their attention I wonder how long before it mysteriously disappears.
<< <i>Interesting post from another forum: link >>
That's great. In their own words in a legal petition....
<< <i>
<< <i>Interesting post from another forum: link >>
That's great. In their own words in a legal petition.... >>
Nothing like being your own worst enemy. Although they could argue they were talking about "First Strike" and not "First Strikes" that is on their current slabs??
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Interesting post from another forum: link >>
That's great. In their own words in a legal petition.... >>
Nothing like being your own worst enemy. Although they could argue they were talking about "First Strike" and not "First Strikes" that is on their current slabs?? >>
I already mentioned this but "First Strikes" plural could be taken to mean a set of coins containing the First Strike singular of each die set in a minting. That's how I would read it. If a proof die makes ~5000 coins and you have a final mintage of 100K there would be 20 First Strikes for that series. Of course, these are tested and discarded by the US Mint so if you got one somehow, it wouldn't be through US Mint order fulfillment.
Plural usually means more of the singular, not something completely different than the singular
<< <i>
<< <i>Just heard on radio, here in Indiana Starbucks has just been sued for a coffee spill burn. Woman bought the coffe at the drive through and then spilled it on her daughter, burning her leg. So she has sued Starbucks. >>
If I buy something such as coffee that I know is hot. I pay for it and take posession of it. How is it the fault of the seller if I spill it and burn myself or someone with it? >>
The issue isn't that they caused you to spill it. The issue is whether or not you assumed the risk of being burned by hot coffee, versus superheated coffee. The risk for spills is accepted by everyone. People spill stuff all the time. Here's the deal. The litigation has shown that some companies and I don't know about Starbucks, despite warnings, super heat their product because their studies and internal documents show that although 112 degrees is the safe limit for drinking coffee, that by making it 180 degrees, their sales increase 50%. This is big business. If sold at a safe level, they lose money, but a spill would be just a spill instead of a life altering disaster for somebodys kid. Don't quote me on the above numbers but from what I remember some companies really superheat the stuff, it wasn't a matter of a couple degrees.