That is why it is in the self-interest of every honest dealer to help police their industry ---- and intervene when required.
storm >>
You are now entering a forbidden zone storm............
To make and analogy storm it is kinda like NYPD vs LAPD NYPD has no problem throwing someone from LAPD to the wolves (read this entire thread), its when NYPD sees something that involves someone else from NYPD that you get the circling of the wagons. I know thru PM's that MANY here see this even though the respected coin guys on this board will try to ... well... put up their own blue shield -----BUT IT AIN'T WORKING....
Careful where you go with this one storm.... It is a small but strong circle....
I didn't mention this before because I was afraid this thread might turn ugly. But since everyone is behaving nicely, I'll give it a shot. One simple question: Does the "scratch" in front of the face look too bright and white to be a staple scratch?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Andy, for purposes of the transaction and the buyer's dissatisfaction with the coin, does it matter what type of scratch/damage/defect it is? No.
As the story was presented to us? No, it doesn't matter.
Then again, the story was presented by the same person that posted this image.
Not that I'm accusing anybody of anything, of course. I have no idea what really happened. I just find it amusing that nobody else has challenged this photo.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Once I waited 6 months for a refund, posted a copy of a police report in the Metal Detecting Forum and got a refund the next day. He gave me $3 bucks interest as well on a $41 refund.
<< <i> Fletcher, is it true you did not fill out and sign the claim form? I think I smell a rat. >>
I completely cooperated with Darrin and he did in fact file a claim and has probably been reimbursed by now. Connecticoin is making up facts as many people here do. He has absolutely no firsthand knowledge of the transaction. >>
Horsecrap, Fletch. All I did was re-tell facts as they were presented on the forum. And at the time you dragged Darin through the mud, you had not filed a claim. You may have done so since then (or you may be lying, who knows), but it still does not excuse your conduct at the time.
<< <i>Horsecrap, Fletch. All I did was re-tell facts as they were presented on the forum. And at the time you dragged Darin through the mud, you had not filed a claim. You may have done so since then (or you may be lying, who knows), but it still does not excuse your conduct at the time. >>
If you know about post office procedures, you know that I could not file a claim. The sender files the claim. I cooperated completely with Darin in filing such a claim. You are retelling facts that were made up by other people, not by Darin or myself.
The seller can argue that there was no meeting of the minds on the return priv. The way his emails are drafted, he is correct, IMO.
The seller's weak spot is the email that says:
"There are absolutely no scratches and gouges that would make the coin look damaged..."
Even that one is open to debate; I say it is damaged, but others (ANACS) may have seen it as not damaged. Maybe damage is "subjective."
Goose should NEVER have bought the coin. He is an equal bearer of sophistication compared to the seller. Red-Flags everywhere, and goose made a mistake.
The seller should not have claimed the "scratches are on the slab." (That is the only "misleading" element I can find.)
My first look at the seller's pics told me the coin - not the slab - was scratched. Goose relied on the seller's listing lingo and emails.
The coin is NOT "worthless." Some dealers would probably buy it, but not for near $575.00.
MORAL: On eBay or off-eBay, make sure that the buyer/seller are on the same page. AND, read DEEP into the OP's FB - including his FB left-for-others - before you do the deal.
storm
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i>I didn't mention this before because I was afraid this thread might turn ugly. But since everyone is behaving nicely, I'll give it a shot. One simple question: Does the "scratch" in front of the face look too bright and white to be a staple scratch?
>>
Andy, for purposes of the transaction and the buyer's dissatisfaction with the coin, does it matter what type of scratch/damage/defect it is? No. But, if you are asking in order to stir up a numismatic discussion, it looks quite white. >>
It also looks like the silver plug variety--is it just my old eyes, or does it appear to have been plugged dead center?l
<< <i> its when NYPD sees something that involves someone else from NYPD that you get the circling of the wagons. >>
I've seen this statement of "circling the wagons" on here before. Please describe this. I tried looking it up but found nothing. >>
Hey stman,
I guess that is what happens when you have the police policing the police. You get to damn many winks and too much back slapping.
But more and more you see chinks developing in the armour....
Oh crap---I just winked.......... >>
So if my translation is correct....... When the dealers are asked to police their own...... there is a bunch of hood-winking and backslapping among them? Not "Respected" forum members I'm sure. Man, now you got me doing the wink thing too.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i>This has to end somewhere ... circle your wagons ... I will not purchase from the three people who requested it ... I am moving on to a new topic >>
Good idea. By the way, I enjoyed the Will Farrell video
<< <i>I didn't mention this before because I was afraid this thread might turn ugly. But since everyone is behaving nicely, I'll give it a shot. One simple question: Does the "scratch" in front of the face look too bright and white to be a staple scratch?
>>
Andy, for purposes of the transaction and the buyer's dissatisfaction with the coin, does it matter what type of scratch/damage/defect it is? No. But, if you are asking in order to stir up a numismatic discussion, it looks quite white. >>
It also looks like the silver plug variety--is it just my old eyes, or does it appear to have been plugged dead center?l >>
"The buyer made it perfectly clear that he was concerned about potential problems with the coin and that he was asking for a return privilege. If the seller was unwilling to grant one, he should not have proceeded with the transacton without making it clear that a return would not be allowed. '
The problem is that the seller did not make an affirmative acknowledgment that a return would be OK. His language is vague; is it vague "on purpose?'" IMO, yes, BUT I could be TOTALLY WRONG.
Goose thought he had a return priv, the seller may have known that goose thought that. Cannot prove it.
The ONLY problem the seller has is on the issue of "scratches are on the slab, not the coin." I saw that was untrue IMMEDIATELY; goose did not.
Then we get into sentence structure again: ".....no scratches that would = damage." Well, it is scratched. I say it is damaged; seller will say it is not damaged, I guess.
When I saw the "concentric circles," they LOOKED LIKE my old "silver solder plugs!" Obviously, you cannot tell that without real close examination.
storm
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
"The act of moving forward with the transaction after being informed of the buyer's stipulation of a return privilege is affirmative acknowledgment."
///////////////////////////////////
For the buyer's sake, that would be helpful. But, the seller's words do not "affirm" the return priv. It can sure be argued that his actions are the affirmation, but it is not a slam dunk.
The "scratches on the slab" controversy is much stronger in support of the buyer's position.
storm
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
I just sent the seller a question on the current auction, quoted his feedback on a prior auction, and asked if he would treat me like that if the date were wrong!
Phew! I just finished reading the entire thread top to bottom. For what it is worth, here is what I think about different subjects that have come up.
1. While I see Andy's point, I have to respectfully disagree with the logic. I believe the difference is that Andy has been doing this so long and knows that there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to shady dealers and the resolution to their practices. Additionally, the coin probably is more like a 200$ loss that if it were him, he would rather write it off and call the 200$ a lesson learned. Goose did ask for opinions and made the dealing public, so while I dont agree with Andy, I dont think anyone should jump on him for his opinion. Andy has been dealing for a long time, and the old school way of thinking is that there is a price for an education in coins...sometimes it is expensive.
I tend to agree with Goose and several other posters that the lesson can be learned (has been learned) regardless and that some action should be taken to prevent the person from doing this again to someone else. That is really what it comes down to and is the opinion that I would offer as to the solution. However, I am a relative newbie when compared to Andy and I am also a person that thinks of the world in absolutes, right and wrong, black and white....when oftentimes it isnt that simple.
#2. Darin Whittaker is untouchable when it comes to honesty. Fletcher, while I dont know you well, we have talked. You love coins and seem like a decent guy. One piece of advice I would offer is that one of the biggest traits that leads to conflict in this business is impatience. A patient dealer and collector relationship will bring great joy, while a hurried suspiscious one will only cause anxiety.
#3. To the people on this board that suggest that there is some grand conspiracy amongst dealers or that slack is cut to the "respected" dealer members of these boards, I respectfully disagree. Dealers on this board that are respected have conducted themselves correctly and honestly over time that earns them that respect. Collectors who have done the same also command respect from the dealers on this board. Additionally, the educated collectors here know the difference between a "respected" dealer on this board and a RESPECTED dealer. Some board members here would do better to spread their knowledge about numismatics and let the wheat and chaff separate on its own. Additionally, just because a dealer has a different view on some area of numismatics that you are passionate about, such as slabbed "AT" stuff, doesnt put them in the non respected list. I look at a few things when evaluating a dealer... honesty, ability to find/sell the best coins and amount that they support their coins when it comes down to buying them back. Bottom line in my head at least are these traits. If I disagree with a dealer or collector about some other part of numismatics, I simply do or dont buy the coin....that simple. Tastes are different, variety the spice of life...but honesty and market support are universal. To constantly crow about dealers and some false protection that dealer members here are afforded is fast getting old....and I start to pay attention about as much as a parrot in the corner asking for a cracker.
#4. This was said in an earlier post that caught my attention
<BTW, I thought it was awfully silly for him to claim he was only making $35 on the deal. I hate it when dealers tell me that nonsense. They immediately go on my do not buy list. If you are a dealer I don't care how much/little you make, just tell me how much it cost>
I found this statement interesting, because it gets to a point that many dealers and collectors dont seem to really understand at all. We are in this hobby together!! As a collector, I would argue that you DO want to care how much a dealer makes. As a dealer, you DO want to care how much your clients are happy with the transaction and you DO want your clients to make money on the coins you sell. A great dealership or great collection is a product of special symbiotic relationships over time that works to meet the needs of all people involved. It means that there are compromises...but it also means cash and coin flow for both the dealer and the collector... AND one of the great byproducts ends up being excellent friendships and people over the years that you can share stories and coins with...which in the end is what it is all about for me.
Andy...How about we turn this into a no spin thread.....no matter what anyone says you somehow spin any negative situation involving a dealer to possibly be the collector's fault.
I just got home and as I expected more implied barbs and subtle shots at me for whatever reason ranging from what I spend on my coins to my photography. Would you like to come over and smack my 3 children around or kick their cat while you're at it?
You state that basically I should just eat the loss and move on. How about I auction it on ebay at .01c with no reserve and you pay me the difference in price realized less fees Versus Price paid? you know....since it's not much.
As far as your comment about me buying 500.00 coins....what do you know about me? You assume quite a bit. I assure you with 3 young children, a wife, a mortgage, and everything that comes with that on my salary and her wages at Target that such a purchase could be deemed a LARGE one.
You have a real problem with people like me that stand up to people when they are wronged and speak their mind about things. I'm not the kind of person that will sit and cower in a corner from anyone.
I think it's obvious that you highly dislike when virtually ANY dealer gets this type of thread dedicated to them.......obvious because of the onslaught of new threads initiated by you.......possibly in an attempt to bury the "bad".
I paid for a problem free coin and was told it was a problem free coin and it was clear that I could return if I wanted. None of that turned out to be true. That about sums it up. That photo I posted is pretty much identical to what it looks like in hand. I even tried to photograph it upside down to try and not catch the scratch so much but it shows any way I shoot it.
Fletcher.
Start your own "New and Improved" whining thread for God's sake.
<< <i>Andy...How about we turn this into a no spin thread.....no matter what anyone says you somehow spin any negative situation involving a dealer to possibly be the collector's fault.
I just got home and as I expected more implied barbs and subtle shots at me for whatever reason ranging from what I spend on my coins to my photography. Would you like to come over and smack my 3 children around or kick their cat while you're at it?
You state that basically I should just eat the loss and move on. How about I auction it on ebay at .01c with no reserve and you pay me the difference in price realized less fees Versus Price paid? you know....since it's not much.
As far as your comment about me buying 500.00 coins....what do you know about me? You assume quite a bit. I assure you with 3 young children, a wife, a mortgage, and everything that comes with that on my salary and her wages at Target that such a purchase could be deemed a LARGE one.
You have a real problem with people like me that stand up to people when they are wronged and speak their mind about things. I'm not the kind of person that will sit and cower in a corner from anyone.
I think it's obvious that you highly dislike when virtually ANY dealer gets this type of thread dedicated to them.......obvious because of the onslaught of new threads initiated by you.......possibly in an attempt to bury the "bad".
Fletcher.
Start your own "New and Improved" whining thread for God's sake. >>
Goose, try to chill-out a bit.
It's interesting to see the same reaction I received years ago on a failure to accept a return issue. I was bombarded and flammed to beeJeesus. I couldn't believe how many folks rose to the lying seller's defense and became eggsperts at reading between the lines and drawing their own inferences
Nothing has changed. There are some wierd folks on these boards, to be sure.
You were screwed, plain and simple. Like Prez Bush (the elder) said when Iraq invaded Kuwait in August of 1990, "this will not stand"!
<< <i>It's interesting to see the same reaction I received years ago on a failure to accept a return issue. >>
The auction you won clearly stated the item was sold "as-is". Your lame attempt to compare these two situations isn't fooling anybody who was around at the time.
<< <i>It's interesting to see the same reaction I received years ago on a failure to accept a return issue. >>
The auction you won clearly stated the item was sold "as-is". Your lame attempt to compare these two situations isn't fooling anybody who was around at the time.
Russ, NCNE >>
You have selective memory. Just what everyone would expect from The eggspert.
<< <i><< It's interesting to see the same reaction I received years ago on a failure to accept a return issue. >>
The auction you won clearly stated the item was sold "as-is". Your lame attempt to compare these two situations isn't fooling anybody who was around at the time.
Russ, NCNE >>
You have selective memory. Just what everyone would expect from The eggspert. >>
My memory is fine. Now, the question is: Has your memory failed, or are you just lying?
Out of 200 plus posts at least one piece of practical advice was given. Recipient of said piece of practical advice finds it a bitter pill to swallow, and like the angry king lashes out at the messenger. Yeah, getting stuck with something that doesn't meet your expectations sucks. Yeah, it sucks when a seller does not live up to his side of the deal. If you are looking for agreement that it sucks, you’ve gotten plenty of that. If you’re looking for “justice,” I suspect that you will not find it. Nor will the messenger find the apology that is in order.
<< <i><< It's interesting to see the same reaction I received years ago on a failure to accept a return issue. >>
The auction you won clearly stated the item was sold "as-is". Your lame attempt to compare these two situations isn't fooling anybody who was around at the time.
Russ, NCNE >>
You have selective memory. Just what everyone would expect from The eggspert. >>
My memory is fine. Now, the question is: Has your memory failed, or are you just lying?
Russ, NCNE >>
How can debate intelligently with The eggspert??
Suffice to say you are wroooooong again, or just a plain liar. Same difference in reality.
From seller Javajune's feedback:
Deceptive auction, condition misrepresented, refused refund--BEWARE --RIP OFF!!! Buyer majorbigtime ( 360Feedback score is 100 to 499) Aug-17-04 19:21 Reply by javajune: Beautiful note! I Offered refund ! He wanted to keep note and get a rebate too! Aug-18-04 07:54 Follow-up by majorbigtime: A BOLDFACED LIE!! I would love a refund--refused to accept ltem at post office! Aug-18-04 17:34
<< <i>Suffice to say you are wroooooong again, or just a plain liar. Same difference in reality.
From seller Javajune's feedback:
Deceptive auction, condition misrepresented, refused refund--BEWARE --RIP OFF!!! Buyer majorbigtime ( 360Feedback score is 100 to 499) Aug-17-04 19:21 Reply by javajune: Beautiful note! I Offered refund ! He wanted to keep note and get a rebate too! Aug-18-04 07:54 Follow-up by majorbigtime: A BOLDFACED LIE!! I would love a refund--refused to accept ltem at post office! Aug-18-04 17:34 >>
You think the eBay feedback proves anything? Everybody who was here at the time, read your loonie thread and checked the auction knows that it clearly stated "AS-IS" in the description. You're making a fool of yourself - even more than usual.
Comments
Well, that says it all. What a wholesome personality!
<< <i>This thread needs to be moved to the Buy, Sell and Tirade board!!
It's been awhile since we have had a nice jucy thread like this to chew over!!
It's human nature at it's best!!
On both counts: Fletcher & Feuer
I didn't think that you would actually answer my other question Feltcher..
But please keep mispelling my name like a first grader
I hope to God that most 1st graders don't know what feltching is...
<< <i>"Me:
<<Coins is my business and dealers like you, who are dishonest
and treat collectors like you do, is bad for my business.>>
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Darn right.
That is why it is in the self-interest of every honest dealer to
help police their industry ---- and intervene when required.
storm >>
You are now entering a forbidden zone storm............
To make and analogy storm it is kinda like NYPD vs LAPD
NYPD has no problem throwing someone from LAPD to the wolves (read this entire thread), its when NYPD sees something that involves someone else from NYPD that you get the circling of the wagons.
I know thru PM's that MANY here see this even though the respected coin guys on this board will try to ... well... put up their own blue shield -----BUT IT AIN'T WORKING....
Careful where you go with this one storm.... It is a small but strong circle....
<< <i>I hope to God that most 1st graders don't know what feltching is...
I didn't think there was a t in felching!
I guess there is now....
<< <i>
Him:
<<What is yer beef and identify yerself by name?>>
Me:
Him:
<<Hey bud...mind yer own business...you got too much time on yer hands.>>
>>
Yarr, he speak like a pirate
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
<< <i>
<< <i>
Him:
<<What is yer beef and identify yerself by name?>>
Me:
Him:
<<Hey bud...mind yer own business...you got too much time on yer hands.>>
>>
Yarr, he speak like a pirate
HaHa that was the first thing I thought too when I read that. My daughter saw the new POC movie and she and her friends have been talking like that...
<< <i> its when NYPD sees something that involves someone else from NYPD that you get the circling of the wagons. >>
I've seen this statement of "circling the wagons" on here before. Please describe this. I tried looking it up but found nothing.
<< <i>I've seen this statement of "circling the wagons" on here before. Please describe this. I tried looking it up but found nothing.
I can only provide you with half an account as I have only seen it from outside the circle ... but when it happens, its never pretty
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i> its when NYPD sees something that involves someone else from NYPD that you get the circling of the wagons. >>
I've seen this statement of "circling the wagons" on here before. Please describe this. I tried looking it up but found nothing.
Hey stman,
I guess that is what happens when you have the police policing the police.
You get to damn many winks and too much back slapping.
But more and more you see chinks developing in the armour....
Oh crap---I just winked..........
<< <i>Does the "scratch" in front of the face look too bright and white to be a staple scratch? >>
A fresh staple scratch would look like that. The "brightness and whiteness" in appearance is magnified by the deep toning.
Russ, NCNE
As the story was presented to us? No, it doesn't matter.
Then again, the story was presented by the same person that posted this image.
Not that I'm accusing anybody of anything, of course. I have no idea what really happened. I just find it amusing that nobody else has challenged this photo.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>
<< <i>This thread needs to be moved to the Buy, Sell and Tirade board!!
It's been awhile since we have had a nice jucy thread like this to chew over!!
It's human nature at it's best!! >>
Sounds more like two threads to me.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I completely cooperated with Darrin and he did in fact file a claim and has probably been reimbursed by now. Connecticoin is making up facts as many people here do. He has absolutely no firsthand knowledge of the transaction. >>
Horsecrap, Fletch. All I did was re-tell facts as they were presented on the forum. And at the time you dragged Darin through the mud, you had not filed a claim. You may have done so since then (or you may be lying, who knows), but it still does not excuse your conduct at the time.
<< <i>Horsecrap, Fletch. All I did was re-tell facts as they were presented on the forum. And at the time you dragged Darin through the mud, you had not filed a claim. You may have done so since then (or you may be lying, who knows), but it still does not excuse your conduct at the time. >>
If you know about post office procedures, you know that I could not file a claim. The sender files the claim. I cooperated completely with Darin in filing such a claim. You are retelling facts that were made up by other people, not by Darin or myself.
The scratch was visible in the seller's photo.
The seller can argue that there was no meeting of the
minds on the return priv. The way his emails are drafted,
he is correct, IMO.
The seller's weak spot is the email that says:
"There are absolutely no scratches and gouges that would
make the coin look damaged..."
Even that one is open to debate; I say it is damaged,
but others (ANACS) may have seen it as not damaged.
Maybe damage is "subjective."
Goose should NEVER have bought the coin. He is an equal
bearer of sophistication compared to the seller. Red-Flags
everywhere, and goose made a mistake.
The seller should not have claimed the "scratches are on the
slab." (That is the only "misleading" element I can find.)
My first look at the seller's pics told me the coin - not the
slab - was scratched. Goose relied on the seller's listing
lingo and emails.
The coin is NOT "worthless." Some dealers would probably
buy it, but not for near $575.00.
MORAL: On eBay or off-eBay, make sure that the buyer/seller
are on the same page. AND, read DEEP into the OP's FB -
including his FB left-for-others - before you do the deal.
storm
<< <i>
<< <i>I didn't mention this before because I was afraid this thread might turn ugly. But since everyone is behaving nicely, I'll give it a shot. One simple question: Does the "scratch" in front of the face look too bright and white to be a staple scratch?
Andy, for purposes of the transaction and the buyer's dissatisfaction with the coin, does it matter what type of scratch/damage/defect it is? No. But, if you are asking in order to stir up a numismatic discussion, it looks quite white.
It also looks like the silver plug variety--is it just my old eyes, or does it appear to have been plugged dead center?l
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> its when NYPD sees something that involves someone else from NYPD that you get the circling of the wagons. >>
I've seen this statement of "circling the wagons" on here before. Please describe this. I tried looking it up but found nothing.
Hey stman,
I guess that is what happens when you have the police policing the police.
You get to damn many winks and too much back slapping.
But more and more you see chinks developing in the armour....
Oh crap---I just winked.......... >>
So if my translation is correct....... When the dealers are asked to police their own...... there is a bunch of hood-winking and backslapping among them? Not "Respected" forum members I'm sure.
<< <i>This has to end somewhere ... circle your wagons ... I will not purchase from the three people who requested it ... I am moving on to a new topic
Good idea. By the way, I enjoyed the Will Farrell video
<< <i>
The seller can argue that there was no meeting of the
minds on the return priv. The way his emails are drafted,
he is correct, IMO.
>>
It is rather ambiguous, to be sure. What a weasel!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I didn't mention this before because I was afraid this thread might turn ugly. But since everyone is behaving nicely, I'll give it a shot. One simple question: Does the "scratch" in front of the face look too bright and white to be a staple scratch?
Andy, for purposes of the transaction and the buyer's dissatisfaction with the coin, does it matter what type of scratch/damage/defect it is? No. But, if you are asking in order to stir up a numismatic discussion, it looks quite white.
It also looks like the silver plug variety--is it just my old eyes, or does it appear to have been plugged dead center?l >>
I do believe you're on to something.
<< <i>The seller should not have claimed the "scratches are on the
slab." (That is the only "misleading" element I can find.) >>
That is kind of important. The guy out and out lied.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
That is all true and correct.
The problem is that the seller did not make an affirmative
acknowledgment that a return would be OK. His language
is vague; is it vague "on purpose?'" IMO, yes, BUT I could
be TOTALLY WRONG.
Goose thought he had a return priv, the seller may have known
that goose thought that. Cannot prove it.
The ONLY problem the seller has is on the issue of "scratches
are on the slab, not the coin." I saw that was untrue IMMEDIATELY;
goose did not.
Then we get into sentence structure again: ".....no scratches that
would = damage." Well, it is scratched. I say it is damaged; seller
will say it is not damaged, I guess.
When I saw the "concentric circles," they LOOKED LIKE my old
"silver solder plugs!" Obviously, you cannot tell that without
real close examination.
storm
<< <i>The problem is that the seller did not make an affirmative
acknowledgment that a return would be OK. >>
The act of moving forward with the transaction after being informed of the buyer's stipulation of a return privilege is affirmative acknowledgment.
Russ, NCNE
of the buyer's stipulation of a return privilege is affirmative acknowledgment."
///////////////////////////////////
For the buyer's sake, that would be helpful. But, the seller's words do not
"affirm" the return priv. It can sure be argued that his actions are the
affirmation, but it is not a slam dunk.
The "scratches on the slab" controversy is much stronger in support of
the buyer's position.
storm
1. While I see Andy's point, I have to respectfully disagree with the logic. I believe the difference is that Andy has been doing this so long and knows that there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to shady dealers and the resolution to their practices. Additionally, the coin probably is more like a 200$ loss that if it were him, he would rather write it off and call the 200$ a lesson learned. Goose did ask for opinions and made the dealing public, so while I dont agree with Andy, I dont think anyone should jump on him for his opinion. Andy has been dealing for a long time, and the old school way of thinking is that there is a price for an education in coins...sometimes it is expensive.
I tend to agree with Goose and several other posters that the lesson can be learned (has been learned) regardless and that some action should be taken to prevent the person from doing this again to someone else. That is really what it comes down to and is the opinion that I would offer as to the solution. However, I am a relative newbie when compared to Andy and I am also a person that thinks of the world in absolutes, right and wrong, black and white....when oftentimes it isnt that simple.
#2. Darin Whittaker is untouchable when it comes to honesty. Fletcher, while I dont know you well, we have talked. You love coins and seem like a decent guy. One piece of advice I would offer is that one of the biggest traits that leads to conflict in this business is impatience. A patient dealer and collector relationship will bring great joy, while a hurried suspiscious one will only cause anxiety.
#3. To the people on this board that suggest that there is some grand conspiracy amongst dealers or that slack is cut to the "respected" dealer members of these boards, I respectfully disagree. Dealers on this board that are respected have conducted themselves correctly and honestly over time that earns them that respect. Collectors who have done the same also command respect from the dealers on this board. Additionally, the educated collectors here know the difference between a "respected" dealer on this board and a RESPECTED dealer. Some board members here would do better to spread their knowledge about numismatics and let the wheat and chaff separate on its own. Additionally, just because a dealer has a different view on some area of numismatics that you are passionate about, such as slabbed "AT" stuff, doesnt put them in the non respected list. I look at a few things when evaluating a dealer... honesty, ability to find/sell the best coins and amount that they support their coins when it comes down to buying them back. Bottom line in my head at least are these traits. If I disagree with a dealer or collector about some other part of numismatics, I simply do or dont buy the coin....that simple. Tastes are different, variety the spice of life...but honesty and market support are universal. To constantly crow about dealers and some false protection that dealer members here are afforded is fast getting old....and I start to pay attention about as much as a parrot in the corner asking for a cracker.
#4. This was said in an earlier post that caught my attention
<BTW, I thought it was awfully silly for him to claim he was only making $35 on the deal. I hate it when dealers tell me that nonsense. They immediately go on my do not buy list. If you are a dealer I don't care how much/little you make, just tell me how much it cost>
I found this statement interesting, because it gets to a point that many dealers and collectors dont seem to really understand at all. We are in this hobby together!!
As a collector, I would argue that you DO want to care how much a dealer makes. As a dealer, you DO want to care how much your clients are happy with the transaction and you DO want your clients to make money on the coins you sell. A great dealership or great collection is a product of special symbiotic relationships over time that works to meet the needs of all people involved. It means that there are compromises...but it also means cash and coin flow for both the dealer and the collector... AND one of the great byproducts ends up being excellent friendships and people over the years that you can share stories and coins with...which in the end is what it is all about for me.
V.r,
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
I just got home and as I expected more implied barbs and subtle shots at me for whatever reason ranging from what I spend on my coins to my photography. Would you like to come over and smack my 3 children around or kick their cat while you're at it?
You state that basically I should just eat the loss and move on. How about I auction it on ebay at .01c with no reserve and you pay me the difference in price realized less fees Versus Price paid? you know....since it's not much.
As far as your comment about me buying 500.00 coins....what do you know about me? You assume quite a bit. I assure you with 3 young children, a wife, a mortgage, and everything that comes with that on my salary and her wages at Target that such a purchase could be deemed a LARGE one.
You have a real problem with people like me that stand up to people when they are wronged and speak their mind about things. I'm not the kind of person that will sit and cower in a corner from anyone.
I think it's obvious that you highly dislike when virtually ANY dealer gets this type of thread dedicated to them.......obvious because of the onslaught of new threads initiated by you.......possibly in an attempt to bury the "bad".
I paid for a problem free coin and was told it was a problem free coin and it was clear that I could return if I wanted. None of that turned out to be true. That about sums it up. That photo I posted is pretty much identical to what it looks like in hand. I even tried to photograph it upside down to try and not catch the scratch so much but it shows any way I shoot it.
Fletcher.
Start your own "New and Improved" whining thread for God's sake.
<< <i>Andy...How about we turn this into a no spin thread.....no matter what anyone says you somehow spin any negative situation involving a dealer to possibly be the collector's fault.
I just got home and as I expected more implied barbs and subtle shots at me for whatever reason ranging from what I spend on my coins to my photography. Would you like to come over and smack my 3 children around or kick their cat while you're at it?
You state that basically I should just eat the loss and move on. How about I auction it on ebay at .01c with no reserve and you pay me the difference in price realized less fees Versus Price paid? you know....since it's not much.
As far as your comment about me buying 500.00 coins....what do you know about me? You assume quite a bit. I assure you with 3 young children, a wife, a mortgage, and everything that comes with that on my salary and her wages at Target that such a purchase could be deemed a LARGE one.
You have a real problem with people like me that stand up to people when they are wronged and speak their mind about things. I'm not the kind of person that will sit and cower in a corner from anyone.
I think it's obvious that you highly dislike when virtually ANY dealer gets this type of thread dedicated to them.......obvious because of the onslaught of new threads initiated by you.......possibly in an attempt to bury the "bad".
Fletcher.
Start your own "New and Improved" whining thread for God's sake. >>
Goose, try to chill-out a bit.
It's interesting to see the same reaction I received years ago on a failure to accept a return issue. I was bombarded and flammed to beeJeesus. I couldn't believe how many folks rose to the lying seller's defense and became eggsperts at reading between the lines and drawing their own inferences
Nothing has changed. There are some wierd folks on these boards, to be sure.
You were screwed, plain and simple. Like Prez Bush (the elder) said when Iraq invaded Kuwait in August of 1990, "this will not stand"!
Be a bulldog and sick 'em!
I sat here last nite and kept my mouth shut and log on today after 12 hours at work to read yet more.
now I'm going to go order a Dominos Pizza for the kids and me. Later!
<< <i>It's interesting to see the same reaction I received years ago on a failure to accept a return issue. >>
The auction you won clearly stated the item was sold "as-is". Your lame attempt to compare these two situations isn't fooling anybody who was around at the time.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>It's interesting to see the same reaction I received years ago on a failure to accept a return issue. >>
The auction you won clearly stated the item was sold "as-is". Your lame attempt to compare these two situations isn't fooling anybody who was around at the time.
Russ, NCNE >>
You have selective memory. Just what everyone would expect from The eggspert.
My reason would be you root for Ohio State.
<< <i><< It's interesting to see the same reaction I received years ago on a failure to accept a return issue. >>
The auction you won clearly stated the item was sold "as-is". Your lame attempt to compare these two situations isn't fooling anybody who was around at the time.
Russ, NCNE >>
You have selective memory. Just what everyone would expect from The eggspert. >>
My memory is fine. Now, the question is: Has your memory failed, or are you just lying?
Russ, NCNE
CG
I really don't see how some of you are seeing fault on Darin's side... quite amazing.
No Scratch
Scratch
<< <i>I'm fine.
I sat here last nite and kept my mouth shut and log on today after 12 hours at work to read yet more.
now I'm going to go order a Dominos Pizza for the kids and me. Later!
Buy me a beer Buddy and I'll be there to help with the pizza!!!
<< <i>
<< <i><< It's interesting to see the same reaction I received years ago on a failure to accept a return issue. >>
The auction you won clearly stated the item was sold "as-is". Your lame attempt to compare these two situations isn't fooling anybody who was around at the time.
Russ, NCNE >>
You have selective memory. Just what everyone would expect from The eggspert. >>
My memory is fine. Now, the question is: Has your memory failed, or are you just lying?
Russ, NCNE >>
How can debate intelligently with The eggspert??
Suffice to say you are wroooooong again, or just a plain liar. Same difference in reality.
From seller Javajune's feedback:
Deceptive auction, condition misrepresented, refused refund--BEWARE --RIP OFF!!!
Buyer majorbigtime ( 360Feedback score is 100 to 499) Aug-17-04 19:21
Reply by javajune: Beautiful note! I Offered refund ! He wanted to keep note and get a rebate too! Aug-18-04 07:54
Follow-up by majorbigtime: A BOLDFACED LIE!! I would love a refund--refused to accept ltem at post office! Aug-18-04 17:34
Trinketts,
How dare you do that to a 19th century New Orleans coin!
But excellent illustration of the point.
<< <i>Suffice to say you are wroooooong again, or just a plain liar. Same difference in reality.
From seller Javajune's feedback:
Deceptive auction, condition misrepresented, refused refund--BEWARE --RIP OFF!!!
Buyer majorbigtime ( 360Feedback score is 100 to 499) Aug-17-04 19:21
Reply by javajune: Beautiful note! I Offered refund ! He wanted to keep note and get a rebate too! Aug-18-04 07:54
Follow-up by majorbigtime: A BOLDFACED LIE!! I would love a refund--refused to accept ltem at post office! Aug-18-04 17:34 >>
You think the eBay feedback proves anything?
Russ, NCNE